8 ms·

As I’ve learned more and more about 5G (which is a nebulous term, really, but what I mean specifically is the planned upcoming releases of LTE 16 and 17, as wel

by elil17 6y ago

As I’ve learned more and more about 5G (which is a nebulous term, really, but what I mean specifically is the planned upcoming releases of LTE 16 and 17, as well as the features of LTE 14 and 15 that users have yet to take advantage of) I’ve become convinced that it’s going to transform how so much of the world is designed. 5G technologies allow for more devices to send more data using less power. This is achieved using a huge variety of new technologies. For instance, with beamforming, the tower sends a directional signal to your phone based on its location instead of broadcasting an omnidirectional signal. This uses less power and supports for more users. What consumers see is much higher data rates for the same price, which doesn’t seem that important. But on the industrial side, there will be offerings that allow for low data rate, low power applications at cheaper and cheaper prices.

gruez 6y ago
> But on the industrial side, there will be offerings that allow for low data rate, low power applications at cheaper and cheaper prices. oh great, now my appliances can phone home even without connecting to a wifi network.
- GrayShade 6y ago
  Just add a SIM card. I've always wondered why they don't put one in the smart TVs, then they could eavesdrop on you all day long. Maybe they'll finally do it now.
  - PeterStuer 6y ago
    There's enough operator deployed wifi around for that already in most countries, so they don't need it.
  - hnlmorg 6y ago
    There is little point when there is already a huge incentive for customers to connect their smart TV to the internet (ie the "smart" features). However you do already see some devices include a sim card. Home "smart" meters for the south of England operate this way. I believe some cars do to.
    - fyfy18 6y ago
      All new cars sold in Europe since 2018 have been required to have a system to automatically contact emergency services in case of an accident: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/04/01/starting-today-all-cars-in-europe-can-call-the-police-themselves/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/04/01/starting...
  - jackson1442 6y ago
    Some IoT stuff already does[0]. According to the trusty people on the internet, you can remove these with your defrosters, and the SIM inside has unlimited data. Of course, approach this with proper scrutiny, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised since their entire business model is based on people not understanding how suction cups work. [0]: https://barnacleparking.com/ https://barnacleparking.com/
- DarthGhandi 6y ago
  Maybe you should consider not buying internet connected devices or following a simple YouTube tutorial to disable the modem. This is only a problem if you wish it to be.
  - progval 6y ago
    What if it becomes so commonplace you no longer have a choice to buy a device not connected to the internet? and if it's not easy to disable the modem? Right now it's already hard enough to have a smartphone's software not spying on you.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
nfriedly 6y ago
> What consumers see is much higher data rates for the same price, which doesn’t seem that important. I think this is in part due to data caps. Nobody takes advantage of the speed, because that could mean burning an entire month's worth of data in 10 minutes.
- Nursie 6y ago
  In circumstances where there is such a thing as a "month's worth of data". Which is still a lot of places, but you can get truly unlimited contracts in some places now, for reasonable amounts.
  - AnssiH 6y ago
    > you can get truly unlimited contracts in some places now This makes it sound like this was not possible before. But e.g. my mobile provider Elisa never did have data caps in the first place, it's been unlimited since GPRS (and no weird tethering limits either).
    - Nursie 6y ago
      Probably very country dependent! I've only had that sort of deal for the last 5ish years.
  - ClikeX 6y ago
    I have "unlimited". In the sense that I have a daily 5GB cap, if I hit that I have to manually trigger 1GB more. But I can do so as much as I want.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      I have (as far as I can tell) truly unlimited, including tethering. When we had trouble getting a fast connection to the house, for a couple of months we just hooked up my phone to the router and burned through 100GB+ per month, with not a squeak from the provider. These deals seem to be getting more common here in the UK, and I pay around £20 per month for it.
lipanski 6y ago
> As I’ve learned more and more about 5G Out of curiousity, what's a good source of information on 5G? I assume the standard itself is not the easiest thing to digest so I'd appreciate your input.
- m4rtink 6y ago
  Last years CCC has a lot of 5G related videos.
- elil17 6y ago
  An Introduction to LTE by Christopher Cox and sharetechnote.com have been most useful to me
- johnnycab 6y ago
  Yes, the 3GPP or ITU standards can make for a dour read. Probably best to look for sources that you find engaging. You can start with something that gives you the basics, and/or just go straight to the vendors ─ who provide a plethora of white papers, case studies, industry insights etc. https://5g.systemsapproach.org/index.html https://5g.systemsapproach.org/index.html https://www.ericsson.com/en/5g/5g-for-consumers https://www.ericsson.com/en/5g/5g-for-consumers https://www.nokia.com/networks/5g/ https://www.nokia.com/networks/5g/
  - wqTJ3jmY8br4RWa 6y ago
    Stranger, your links above were very helpful for me in formulating my company's strategy in 5G. we are a big well known player. How can I get in touch with you for a more in depth conversation?
- femto 6y ago
  Clone the srsLTE repository [1], and use it to set up a demonstration system with a core network (srsEPC), base station (srsENB) and a mobile phone (srsUE). It's several hours work to set up a system that runs on a couple of Virtual Machines and bridges the IP networks together on your two VMs. You can then do pings and file transfers over your newly minted LTE network. An Intel i7 processor is fast enough to run a multi-megabit link in real time, with all three of the above components running on the same i7. Use srsLTE's simulated channel model to start with, as if avoids the cost of hardware and the regulatory restrictions on making an actual radio transmission. Only buy radio hardware if you graduate to wanting to experiment with actual transmissions and have developed the knowledge to not get in trouble with the regulators. Once you have the demo running, download the standards [2] and start digging though the srsLTE source code with the standards by your side for reference. The source code makes the standard digestible and includes comments with references to documents, teaching you the best places to start. Because you have a live system running you can experiment as needed to understand something. 5G is an evolution of 4G (LTE), so whilst the srsLTE isn't a complete 5G implementation it will teach you enough about 4G (which is the foundation of 5G) that you will probably be able to understand 5G. I've found this approach to be a valuable way to learn about LTE/5G, but I do have a background in such systems. My feeling is such an approach would work for someone with a software background, even if lacking the radio knowledge, as the srsLTE source acts as a "roadmap" and the necessary background reading (MIMO, coding, ...) could be done on an as needed basis as the concept is encountered in the source code. [1] https://github.com/srsLTE/srsLTE https://github.com/srsLTE/srsLTE [2] https://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/latest https://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/latest
amelius 6y ago
> For instance, with beamforming, the tower sends a directional signal to your phone based on its location instead of broadcasting an omnidirectional signal. This uses less power and supports for more users. I think the biggest advantage is the other way around: devices using less battery power for transmitting signals, so batteries would last longer. (And I'm betting that if receiving would be less power-intensive for these devices if the incoming signal has more power, then the towers would use more power, not less.) But you're right about the other advantage of beamforming: less interference.
- elil17 6y ago
  Beamforming uses less power on both ends. There’s a regulatory maximum signal power for both the user equipment and the node B, and sending a unidirectional signal uses less electricity while producing the same signal power in the direction of the beam.
p_l 6y ago
Beamforming and generally avoiding omnidirectional signal is something that's been around since at least HSDPA, iirc? At least that's when I heard of it in telco...
- elil17 6y ago
  It’s true that beamforming itself is not new (there’s actually been rudimentary beamforming since 2G). But beams are getting small and targeted enough to support space division multiple access (same frequency can be used for many mobile stations in different locations). Also, 5G mobile stations themselves support beamforming, which is important for uplink bandwidth and power usage.
ksec 6y ago
>releases of LTE 16 and 17 Nitpicking, 3GPP Rel 16 / 17. There is no such thing as LTE 16 :) But generally yes. 5G is basically a much better 4G.
- tuatoru 6y ago
  Any chance we could get that standards committee to re-do bluetooth? :-)
supernova87a 6y ago
Do we really think that 5G will bring faster connectivity for cheaper (for the consumer)? That's what I want to know amidst all the hype about the technology by headline writers. If it's not going to make things faster and cheaper, I'm not eagerly awaiting its arrival like many would have us believe. Isn't that the point of technology?
- elil17 6y ago
  Typically, in the US, the big name cell operators (Verizon, TMobile, etc) charge similar rates and give the highest packet priority to their customers, while selling deprioritized bandwidth to virtual network mobile operators (US Mobile, Google Fi, Mint, etc.), who in turn sell it to consumers at a lower price. My guess is that with 5G, VNMOs will be a better option for more people because circumstances where connectivity is limited and priority matters will be much rarer. That’s just the US market, though. I can’t speak to other countries.
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    Oh, I didn't know about that at all -- the aspect of selling off lower "grade" bandwidth to others. Are there any stats about that? Does that apply to voice channels as well? Is there somewhere I can read more about this? Thanks!

by elil17 6y ago

gruez 6y ago

> But on the industrial side, there will be offerings that allow for low data rate, low power applications at cheaper and cheaper prices. oh great, now my appliances can phone home even without connecting to a wifi network.

GrayShade 6y ago
Just add a SIM card. I've always wondered why they don't put one in the smart TVs, then they could eavesdrop on you all day long. Maybe they'll finally do it now.
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  There's enough operator deployed wifi around for that already in most countries, so they don't need it.
- hnlmorg 6y ago
  There is little point when there is already a huge incentive for customers to connect their smart TV to the internet (ie the "smart" features). However you do already see some devices include a sim card. Home "smart" meters for the south of England operate this way. I believe some cars do to.
  - fyfy18 6y ago
    All new cars sold in Europe since 2018 have been required to have a system to automatically contact emergency services in case of an accident: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/04/01/starting-today-all-cars-in-europe-can-call-the-police-themselves/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/04/01/starting...
- jackson1442 6y ago
  Some IoT stuff already does[0]. According to the trusty people on the internet, you can remove these with your defrosters, and the SIM inside has unlimited data. Of course, approach this with proper scrutiny, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised since their entire business model is based on people not understanding how suction cups work. [0]: https://barnacleparking.com/ https://barnacleparking.com/
DarthGhandi 6y ago
Maybe you should consider not buying internet connected devices or following a simple YouTube tutorial to disable the modem. This is only a problem if you wish it to be.
- progval 6y ago
  What if it becomes so commonplace you no longer have a choice to buy a device not connected to the internet? and if it's not easy to disable the modem? Right now it's already hard enough to have a smartphone's software not spying on you.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

nfriedly 6y ago

> What consumers see is much higher data rates for the same price, which doesn’t seem that important. I think this is in part due to data caps. Nobody takes advantage of the speed, because that could mean burning an entire month's worth of data in 10 minutes.

Nursie 6y ago
In circumstances where there is such a thing as a "month's worth of data". Which is still a lot of places, but you can get truly unlimited contracts in some places now, for reasonable amounts.
- AnssiH 6y ago
  > you can get truly unlimited contracts in some places now This makes it sound like this was not possible before. But e.g. my mobile provider Elisa never did have data caps in the first place, it's been unlimited since GPRS (and no weird tethering limits either).
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Probably very country dependent! I've only had that sort of deal for the last 5ish years.
- ClikeX 6y ago
  I have "unlimited". In the sense that I have a daily 5GB cap, if I hit that I have to manually trigger 1GB more. But I can do so as much as I want.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    I have (as far as I can tell) truly unlimited, including tethering. When we had trouble getting a fast connection to the house, for a couple of months we just hooked up my phone to the router and burned through 100GB+ per month, with not a squeak from the provider. These deals seem to be getting more common here in the UK, and I pay around £20 per month for it.

lipanski 6y ago

> As I’ve learned more and more about 5G Out of curiousity, what's a good source of information on 5G? I assume the standard itself is not the easiest thing to digest so I'd appreciate your input.

m4rtink 6y ago
Last years CCC has a lot of 5G related videos.
elil17 6y ago
An Introduction to LTE by Christopher Cox and sharetechnote.com have been most useful to me
johnnycab 6y ago
Yes, the 3GPP or ITU standards can make for a dour read. Probably best to look for sources that you find engaging. You can start with something that gives you the basics, and/or just go straight to the vendors ─ who provide a plethora of white papers, case studies, industry insights etc. https://5g.systemsapproach.org/index.html https://5g.systemsapproach.org/index.html https://www.ericsson.com/en/5g/5g-for-consumers https://www.ericsson.com/en/5g/5g-for-consumers https://www.nokia.com/networks/5g/ https://www.nokia.com/networks/5g/
- wqTJ3jmY8br4RWa 6y ago
  Stranger, your links above were very helpful for me in formulating my company's strategy in 5G. we are a big well known player. How can I get in touch with you for a more in depth conversation?
femto 6y ago
Clone the srsLTE repository [1], and use it to set up a demonstration system with a core network (srsEPC), base station (srsENB) and a mobile phone (srsUE). It's several hours work to set up a system that runs on a couple of Virtual Machines and bridges the IP networks together on your two VMs. You can then do pings and file transfers over your newly minted LTE network. An Intel i7 processor is fast enough to run a multi-megabit link in real time, with all three of the above components running on the same i7. Use srsLTE's simulated channel model to start with, as if avoids the cost of hardware and the regulatory restrictions on making an actual radio transmission. Only buy radio hardware if you graduate to wanting to experiment with actual transmissions and have developed the knowledge to not get in trouble with the regulators. Once you have the demo running, download the standards [2] and start digging though the srsLTE source code with the standards by your side for reference. The source code makes the standard digestible and includes comments with references to documents, teaching you the best places to start. Because you have a live system running you can experiment as needed to understand something. 5G is an evolution of 4G (LTE), so whilst the srsLTE isn't a complete 5G implementation it will teach you enough about 4G (which is the foundation of 5G) that you will probably be able to understand 5G. I've found this approach to be a valuable way to learn about LTE/5G, but I do have a background in such systems. My feeling is such an approach would work for someone with a software background, even if lacking the radio knowledge, as the srsLTE source acts as a "roadmap" and the necessary background reading (MIMO, coding, ...) could be done on an as needed basis as the concept is encountered in the source code. [1] https://github.com/srsLTE/srsLTE https://github.com/srsLTE/srsLTE [2] https://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/latest https://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/latest

amelius 6y ago

> For instance, with beamforming, the tower sends a directional signal to your phone based on its location instead of broadcasting an omnidirectional signal. This uses less power and supports for more users. I think the biggest advantage is the other way around: devices using less battery power for transmitting signals, so batteries would last longer. (And I'm betting that if receiving would be less power-intensive for these devices if the incoming signal has more power, then the towers would use more power, not less.) But you're right about the other advantage of beamforming: less interference.

elil17 6y ago
Beamforming uses less power on both ends. There’s a regulatory maximum signal power for both the user equipment and the node B, and sending a unidirectional signal uses less electricity while producing the same signal power in the direction of the beam.

p_l 6y ago

Beamforming and generally avoiding omnidirectional signal is something that's been around since at least HSDPA, iirc? At least that's when I heard of it in telco...

elil17 6y ago
It’s true that beamforming itself is not new (there’s actually been rudimentary beamforming since 2G). But beams are getting small and targeted enough to support space division multiple access (same frequency can be used for many mobile stations in different locations). Also, 5G mobile stations themselves support beamforming, which is important for uplink bandwidth and power usage.

ksec 6y ago

>releases of LTE 16 and 17 Nitpicking, 3GPP Rel 16 / 17. There is no such thing as LTE 16 :) But generally yes. 5G is basically a much better 4G.

tuatoru 6y ago
Any chance we could get that standards committee to re-do bluetooth? :-)

supernova87a 6y ago

Do we really think that 5G will bring faster connectivity for cheaper (for the consumer)? That's what I want to know amidst all the hype about the technology by headline writers. If it's not going to make things faster and cheaper, I'm not eagerly awaiting its arrival like many would have us believe. Isn't that the point of technology?

elil17 6y ago
Typically, in the US, the big name cell operators (Verizon, TMobile, etc) charge similar rates and give the highest packet priority to their customers, while selling deprioritized bandwidth to virtual network mobile operators (US Mobile, Google Fi, Mint, etc.), who in turn sell it to consumers at a lower price. My guess is that with 5G, VNMOs will be a better option for more people because circumstances where connectivity is limited and priority matters will be much rarer. That’s just the US market, though. I can’t speak to other countries.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  Oh, I didn't know about that at all -- the aspect of selling off lower "grade" bandwidth to others. Are there any stats about that? Does that apply to voice channels as well? Is there somewhere I can read more about this? Thanks!