22 ms·

People work longer and different hours under lockdown

285 points by hhs 6y ago

hhs 6y ago
If interested, this is the study they reference: https://www.nber.org/papers/w27612 https://www.nber.org/papers/w27612
- LockAndLol 6y ago
  What I'd like to know is how they collected that data from 3.1M people. > To study this question, we acquired de-identified, aggregated meta-data from an information technology services provider that licenses digital communications solutions to organizations around the world. I'm guessing Slack, Teams or some other company provided them with this data. If they have access to this data, then what kind of data do employers have access to? > Using the span of time defined by the first and last email sent or meeting attended in a 24-hour period, we also find the average workday span increased by +48.5 minutes So that's how they define a workday. When you're in an office, you have lunch with colleagues and there might be pressure to end it quickly, especially if your boss is joining. At home, you can easily take a few more minutes, which might actually be the 8% increase they are seeing here. To add to this, just because the workday seems longer, it doesn't mean that the entire time was spent working. It's possible to take more breaks when you need it.
  - jfk13 6y ago
    > Using the span of time defined by the first and last email sent or meeting attended in a 24-hour period What a worthless definition. I often start my day with hours of development or debugging work that doesn't involve sending any emails or attending any meetings, so that would be completely missed. I can't be the only such person, surely. On the other hand, timezone issues mean that I sometimes have late-night meetings, so I'd look really dedicated on those days. Of course, that'd miss the fact that I took time out to go shopping, make dinner, do some gardening, watch a movie, or whatever... all that now counts as part of my "work day" because of a late-night meeting. Seems like they've come up with something essentially meaningless here. This "workday span" is (a) wildly inaccurate for anyone whose role is more than sending emails and sitting in meetings, and (b) totally ignores the fact that many people when working from home have huge flexibility to take breaks when it suits them. Ah well... I suppose a publication "dedicated to the design and management of workplaces" has to try and justify its existence somehow.
papito 6y ago
This is a matter of time discipline. Start your workday at 9AM. Someone sending you a Slack message at 7AM - too bad - you are in the middle of your morning routine. At end of day, log out of your work account or shut down the work laptop, whichever case may be. You are not using your personal user account and a work account during the day still, ARE YOU?
- deleted 6y ago
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- sascha_sl 6y ago
  >You are not using your personal user account and a work account during the day still, ARE YOU? In my defense, I'm on call a lot.
  - yladiz 6y ago
    On call doesn’t mean always available for anything, though. It should mean if something truly breaks you’re there to help fix it. If the former is the case, I’d definitely set some boundaries to reduce that over time.
    - jniedrauer 6y ago
      In an early stage startup with customers, you're on call 24/7/365.
      - ntauthority 6y ago
        And inevitably, when trying not to be, you are anyway. Fun times getting out a tablet to tweak firewall settings deflecting a DDoS attack while at a furniture store. At least at home, people won't look at you oddly when you take out a tablet out of nowhere because, yes, something is down, and people will want it to be solved right away.
  - papito 6y ago
    I mean, on call is on call. That's different. But do you have a sane rotation schedule?
chrisgd 6y ago
I was let go but I found that I worked a lot longer as it was harder to get things done with two kids in the background. Even as my wife struggled to keep them away and let me work, inevitably I felt the need to help her or help the older one with online school. As far as telling people that I wasn’t available at certain times, that just didn’t seem to be an option.
- harlanji 6y ago
  What didn’t work about telling people that you weren’t available at certain times? I’ve had this feeling as well, but in practice I find that people either respect my boundary or try to get a reason and then argue with the reason—the latter type now just send me the signal that I don’t want to depend on people like this anymore and that I should make space for new people. Asking more to trigger reflection than for an answer, rhetorically I think that’d be called. Best wishes. (Ps. It’s true that I’m homeless, if you check my history, and I don’t feel that’s an indication of having boundaries not being sustainable, I think I just had a lot of old garbage from being weak that lead me here but I’m more likely to overcome it with this approach, even if it’s slower).
  - chrisgd 6y ago
    I was in finance. Telling a senior level person about needing my own time jeopardizes my bonus. Which was 50% of my total comp
option 6y ago
my wife and I both work full-time (SWE). Have been fun WFH with 2 and 5 year olds. And, I know, we are among the lucky ones who got to keep their jobs.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
elil17 6y ago
Personally, I’ve been working harder because I lost my sense of job security. My company wasn’t hit hard, but there are so many people looking for jobs right now that I could easily be replaced. I feel I have to constantly impress my bosses to keep my job.
davidw 6y ago
I am getting very tired of living at work. I miss going in to the office.
- booleandilemma 6y ago
  Agreed. Between work and non-work, I’m literally spending over 12 hours per day in my living room. No matter what some people would have us believe, this can’t be healthy.
  - Solvitieg 6y ago
    As a single person I've found it difficult. I've made efforts to go out after work, spend time with friends, and get back into my hobbies. But none of these are enough to make up for the 8 hours of social interaction I was getting each weekday by being in the office. Also as a single person, working in an office environment downtown felt like I had way more opportunity. Opportunity to move up in the company, opportunity to meet a girlfriend, etc. Oh well I guess there's Tinder.
    - cheerlessbog 6y ago
      I have a couple single friends in your position who were getting dangerously lonely. They got a cat in one case dog in the other and it hasn’t fixed anything but it’s given them a reason to get outside and a bit more of something alive in their life
NamTaf 6y ago
I believe I'm working on average longer hours, but I'm able to more flexibly use my own time whilst doing so. I'll work as I'm watching a Twitch stream, for example, and I feel far more relaxed doing this than trying to focus 100% on work and only work. I can pick when I work, so when I'm feeling completely mindless and distracted at 2pm I can just zone out and do my own thing, but then make it up later. For me, the hours might be longer (even not counting the breaks in the day), but the time when working is more relaxed. I prefer this balance.
- varrock 6y ago
  > I can pick when I work, so when I'm feeling completely mindless and distracted at 2pm I can just zone out and do my own thing, but then make it up later. This is by far my favorite perk of working from home. I’ve been able to max my efficiency. When I hit this wall, I usually go do something that requires me to move around, such as going to the grocery store or doing laundry, which are things I would’ve had to do anyways. The difference is that I’m doing those tasks when I’d otherwise be sitting at my desk being unproductive. It’s kind of like intuitive eating; working when your brain is up for it. Of course, you can’t utilize this luxury every day and every hour, as often times you do need to bunker down to accommodate the typical 9-5 schedule. But, it’s still much more apparent than when being in an office.
- rosstex 6y ago
  This is a slippery slope towards overworking, where work blends into life. This isn't how things should be. Unless you're a PhD student like me :)
  - maps7 6y ago
    > This isn't how things should be What is this based on?
    - xapata 6y ago
      That was clearly a subjective ethical statement. The speaker would have used "ought" if they wanted to appear objective.
brushfoot 6y ago
Not that the article claims this, but this doesn't mean lockdown is leading to more or better work getting done, of course. It may just mean work-life balance is harder now that the lines have been further blurred. Or maybe work without commutes is relatively more relaxing to the point where start and stop times don't seem to matter as much.
daveFNbuck 6y ago
This says that people work 48 more minutes per day on average. I looked up the mean commute time in the US, and it's 26.6 minutes each way. So this would still be a small net win for people who are working from home. The win is bigger if you factor in being home for lunch and other breaks.
- foepys 6y ago
  On my home commute I take short detours to buy groceries, go to the bank, get my hair cut, go to the gym, etc. When I do a whole week of home office I actually don't gain that much extra free time because I need to go to these places anyways.
  - jethro_tell 6y ago
    Also, I would pay someone to do my lunch and breakfast cooking and dishes. Now I do that myself which I enjoy but the 15 minute lunch is no more for me. Plus that was a small walk. Now I cook, tidy up and go for a walk before sitting back down. A net win and better productivity for my life, but I don't have that much more time in my day. Also kids, so that may make this an irrelevant data point. But I'm cooking 4/5 meals a day and doing 3 loads of dishes a day, up from one of each.
- kdmccormick 6y ago
  Sure, on the surface, that's ~6 minutes "won back" during lockdown... but time commuting and time working are not equatable. Speaking for myself, my commute is a time to focus on something simple, reflect, and listen to the radio or podcasts. Work, while more interesting, is infinitely more mentally and emotionally taxing. Also, lunch at the office can be a nice time to take a break and socialiaze, whereas lunch at home can turn into eating in front of one's laptop.
  - benrbray 6y ago
    Commuting by train, I agree! But when I commuted by car in the past, it was a time to languish in my vehicle, parked on the highway, wondering why a drive normally taking 15 minutes on weekends instead takes 60 minutes on a work day. Definitely not a de-stresser for me!
Finnucane 6y ago
I’ve been adapting my schedule partly to the weather. When it is hot during the day, I try to shift some of my work to cooler hours.
- randycupertino 6y ago
  Ditto- except when it's lovely and sunny out, I'll make sure I block out 45 minutes to go do some yoga on the deck or garden in the yard.
dijit 6y ago
Oh. I’m definitely working more hours total. But I might go to the shop or take a 20 minute nap if I’m feeling frazzled. Overall I prefer this interleaving of my work and my life, but I appreciate that it shouldn’t be expected.
zelphirkalt 6y ago
From personal experience I can confirm: I worked longer and more efficiently during working from home (WFH). There were a few more meetings as well. Sometimes a few developers and I simply stayed in a conference call for almost the whole working day. I had to start maintaining a log o working hours to stop doing more than 8 hours. There was always that last thing I wanted to get done that day, often costing 1 or 2 more hours. And that was still better than having to waste 1h+ on the way to the office and 1h+ on the way back. I am not sure I would decline, if I was offered to work 9h a day but was allowed to WFH. I would still start earlier and be done earlier than when not WFH.
- idclip 6y ago
  I had a similar experience! Did yoga in between, it was even very healing.
- vorticalbox 6y ago
  My comuite was 2 hours two work and 2 back, getting up at half 5 every day. Since the office is now WFH I get more sleep and am far more productive. I two find myself doing 1-2 hours extra a day though I am trying to reign that back in. I had always said at work I am just as productive at home as I am in the office and this lock down gave me the chance to prove it
mrlatinos 6y ago
Horrible website, post the study instead.
amelius 6y ago
The obvious reason why we work longer: we have no social lives anymore ...
- saurik 6y ago
  Yeah. I am extremely confused that you seem to be the only comment on this entire thread who isn't focused on commuting tradeoffs or work/life balance due to commingled environments, as if this is "life a small usual, except working from home"... I have always worked from home (and think people who go to an office are crazy), and my job is thereby identical to what it was before COVID-19... and yet, I am working much longer hours because I have absolutely nothing else to do :/. I used to go out to eat a lot, hang out with friends, go to movies and concerts and events, I live next to a university where I could drop in on classes and talk to professors, I used to go to a lot of conferences (which you could argue was "for work", but frankly we all know a lot of the time spent at them isn't just a vacation you can justify as being sort of related to your job; do I really need to go to CES every year? no)... hell: I used to spend a weirdly large amount of time just grocery shopping, as I enjoyed finding new foods and it was an activity around people I didn't have to interact with (as we are all doing stuff), but since I live in a small-ish town (where I am even in local politics, which helps make it smaller for me) I would often run into people I know and exchange at least a few pleasantries; but now we all treat grocery shopping as something to do seldom, in bulk: it is all very transactional and you can't wander the isles for an hour, or get into conversations with people. So like, now, I am spending more time on random hobbies, but those are still a bit lonely :/. I have gained a bunch of weight, in no small part because I have gotten better at cooking... just for me :(. I swear I am mostly an introvert, but I know I have an extroverted streak (it is why I am able to be a politician and a public speaker despite kind of hating other people ;P) and I normally have ways to burn that off but I just don't have that at all anymore. I have watched an infinite number of movies and TV shows (I now have a "quota" to get through three movies a day ;P...), as my brain considers the people on the screen vaguely similar to being around other humans (this has even caused me to start following people I don't know on social media--like Instagram and TikTok--as it causes the same trick), but that only uses part of my brain most of the time (most movies aren't good) and so I still want to do something while watching them (which also helps my brain not realize they aren't made from real people). You know what working has? Coordination with other people on what feels like a shared sense of purpose. I need that right now :(.
chadlavi 6y ago
I really don't get why anyone who can choose when to stop working and whose compensation is not hourly would ever work longer hours. Your time doesn't belong to your employer.
- xerosis 6y ago
  Because often people rely on that work and it needs to be done ?
- cj 6y ago
  Some people enjoy their work. It's not always 100% about the money.
  - randomProducer 6y ago
    > It's not always 100% about the money. ... for the employee
    - lipstone 6y ago
      It's not 100% about money for the employer, either. Human emotions are real and managers aren't just blindly following game theory.
      - randomProducer 6y ago
        You're right it's not 100% but I made that comment to admittedly "get a reaction". I think it's good to remind people of this dynamic, the way you think about your workplace is just half the story. > Human emotions are real and managers aren't just blindly following game theory Absolutely, which means this isn't guaranteed. This isn't part of a companies DNA ( you could argue good people always get hired?). This isn't true for all work places. The truth is it depends on the people that work there and just like you mentioned that you could have caring emotional humans as managers, you can also have not-caring emotional humans as managers. If I had to make a grand generalization about most workplaces then I think it's safer to say they would care more about money (for profit/staying in business) than I would say they care about making me, an employee, happy. Having said that I've worked in great places where I don't feel it's 100% about the money. I know some of that feeling is genuine because of the people I work with. I also know that feeling is intended and is the primary focus of some departments in companies. I know that I'm in a field that has enjoys greater privileges than other workers. I try to remind myself about this and I think I'm ok with saying that "it's 99% about the money for the employer". A bit cynical (or realist depending on your view).
SomeHacker44 6y ago
I feel that I work more, but I spend less time at work. I may work 30 minutes more a day, on average, but save 2 hours commuting, $130 in mass transit and a bunch in lunch money. As others said, I can also modify my hours a bit as needed. I also have vastly more and longer meetings, unlike the article.
- tommymachine 6y ago
  You spend 130 a day on mass transit?
alyandon 6y ago
I'm technically working longer because I'm not spending 70-120 additional minutes of each day commuting 14 miles to/from the office. Despite working longer, I still end up having more free time. It is amazing how I manage to rationalize sitting in traffic for that amount of time every day to myself.
- bdcravens 6y ago
  I will say that driving less I have to look for opportunities to consume the podcasts that I find valuable.
  - cloudwalking 6y ago
    Yeah, I've gone from 60-90 minutes of podcasts per day to zero.
    - dkokelley 6y ago
      I listen to them on walking breaks during the day.
      - bredren 6y ago
        I listen while walking my leash trained cat early in the morning.
    - bdcravens 6y ago
      I do listen them while I'm showering, as well as when I'm doing mindless chores, so my consumption hasn't gone to entirely 0.
  - drdeadringer 6y ago
    I'm the same. I keep bumping up on the max capacity of my .mp3 player despite finding which tasks would be better served to double up.
  - joegahona 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dade_ 6y ago
I’ve definitely noticed shorter meetings and it is now more common to end the meetings when the topics are covered. However, there are a few people that I work with that simply must blather on until the schedule time is used up. Making up additional topics, begging people on the call to raise additional items which are always completely off topic and unimportant. Perhaps they are lonely, but it is especially annoying with video calls. I am going to get rude about it one of these days.
- rosywoozlechan 6y ago
  > I am going to get rude about it one of these days. I doubt that strategy will be effective.
- joegahona 6y ago
  Rather than getting rude, get passive aggressive. Just drop off the calls and blame Comcast -- something that's more difficult to do in an in-person meeting.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    Someone created a video background for Zoom that says "reconnecting..." in the same font Zoom uses for other stuff. They just put that up and step out of frame.
- aprdm 6y ago
  Why can’t you simply leave the meeting? Put a chat message gotta go bye (or equivalent) and turn off.
- tdfx 6y ago
  The appropriate phrase I've found to be effective for when someone is wasting my time is "this seems to be out of scope for me right now". It forces someone to justify why this waste of your time is somehow relevant, which they usually can't do. Ex: "I'll leave you guys to finish talking through this one as it seems out of scope for me right now. I'm going to get started on previously-discussed-priority-item." For someone to ask you to remain on the call after that is implicitly saying their discussion is more important than another item that has been agreed to be a priority.
x87678r 6y ago
I think I need to go back to the office just to get a better separation between work and home. Working during the week I'm helping with kids and house stuff, and if I have nothing to do for a few hours on the weekend I'm dialling in to work to finish stuff off I should have done during the week. Its all becoming a blur and I'm not doing either role well.
- m463 6y ago
  My experience seems to be similar to yours. I think this may be one of those weird paradoxes of life. I wonder if in 5 years when (if?) people are back in the office we will pine away for these times. It might be a good time to set appropriate boundaries, self-manage better, and make the most of the situation. I look at it as maybe practice for retirement. I think a lot of people have these retirement dreams that are poorly imagined and when the time comes they'll mismanage their time left. Maybe getting this right could end up being retirement with a job you like instead of "any old" retirement thing to pass the time.
- tetha 6y ago
  As much as I oppose forcing people into the office, there is nothing intrinsically bad about being in the office. Two guys from our team are in a similar situation as you are and we've agreed on them taking up our office spots permanently. It's still simple to control and track contact in that situation in case an infection occurs. But all in all, it's been a great boost for their mental well being.
  - nogridbag 6y ago
    Sounds like those guys are either fortunate to be able to live on one persons's salary or they feel comfortable returning the kids to daycare.
- bojan 6y ago
  How do you both have kids and have nothing to do for a few hours on the weekend?
  - 6y ago
m3kw9 6y ago
Is probably more spread out instead of longer they need to know the difference
icegreentea2 6y ago
I wonder how much is people anticipating that a hammer is probably coming. In nearly all areas of North America and Europe, even the best managed countries are expecting some sort of economic downturn - and it's likely to spread and impact every industry eventually to some degree. I know that I'm thinking that a bit. No one wants to be the easy pickings when the layoffs come rolling around.
irrational 6y ago
I’ve reverted to my natural sleep cycle of 3:00am-11am or so. It has been great for my health.
rossgordon 6y ago
It's all about finding the perfect work/life harmony, though. Everyone's lives have slowed down considerably, and in many ways work is a necessary and welcomed use of time. As long as you have enough time to spend with your loved ones and pursue your hobbies, working more may not be a bad thing. My thoughts on work/life balance: https://gridology.substack.com/p/gridology-8-how-can-i-strike-a-better https://gridology.substack.com/p/gridology-8-how-can-i-strik...
namelosw 6y ago
I love WFH but I found myself having serious productivity issues because I'm an ADHD guy and I'm having procrastination issues, and WFH makes it even more serious. At first, I was struggling because I always wanted to open YouTube or just stay there and thinking about random things and basically doing nothing for hours. Eventually I have to secretly compensate with my own time regretfully. Then I found when every time I compensate the work at night I'm pretty productive because I'm under enough pressure to keep me focus and not overthinking things. At that moment, I realized I can swap the time slots to maximize everything. Now I usually try to start working in the morning, as long as I'm productive, and setup a timer to keep tracking on how long did I work. When I found myself stop being productive and my mind is wandering, I would pause the timer and just relax - do what ever I want, just not struggling anymore. When I feel I'm ready to work, I would go back to work, and repeat. The most important part is, if according to the timer I only worked 5 hours today and I ought to work 8 hours, I would start working no later than 9pm (given I usually slept at 12pm). It gives me enough time to finish my stuff, while I would unconsciously understand it's the deadline thus it gives me the pressure to focus and being productive. It's pretty effective for me, and it helped me being able to keep being productive without struggling. Some people may argue it's not good working ethic, but as Martin Fowler suggested "Don't tell your manager (you're refactoring)" (because refactoring would be a part of developing). Usually in the office, there were times I have to force myself working in low productivity mode. I'm refactoring my time to keep both my productivity sanity.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  Same here! I usually just watch YouTube during work hours or go for a walk until I feel that “flow state” coming on then I’ll work until whenever.
- sosborn 6y ago
  IMO “good working ethic” is only about doing your work and doing it well. It doesn’t mean anything about working continuously for 8 hours.
  - whateveracct 6y ago
internet2000 6y ago
Someone should map the sentiment in HN comments on working from home during Coronavirus articles, I bet it would look interesting. I feel like they're getting gradually more negative. (I personally can't wait to go back to the office.)
- ghaff 6y ago
  I'm not sure it's necessarily more negative as that people who resignedly accepted the current situation are seeing that the "new normal," while not 100% remote in most cases, is probably often not going to be entire teams working together in one location. Which means, more or less, that teams will have to work as if everyone is remote to be effective. And that's a big change.
- cheerlessbog 6y ago
  What if your employer did the same as Twitter etc and declared working from home was allowed forever. Could you imagine moving somewhere you’d love to be - with excellent internet - finding new friends there and being happier than other situation?
  - whywhywhywhy 6y ago
    If the new normal world is too dangerous to sit in an office together, how on earth would you find new friends if you moved? It doesn’t make sense.
    - cheerlessbog 6y ago
      Doing stuff outdoors or by other means staying apart
  - muffinman26 6y ago
    Working from home is already allowed at my company, but if they moved to everyone working from home indefinitely I would absolutely leave the company, even if it meant taking a significant pay cut and changing careers. I don't want to stare at a computer screen without in-person interaction for 8 hours/day.
birdyrooster 6y ago
Anecdotal: I work less hours and different hours under lockdown. Burnout means I barely do shit and no one can tell the difference because I was just doing the same thing (YouTube and Twitter) at work anyways.
Mupuff 6y ago
We should all be working only 3\4 days of the week. When you think of it, it's crazy how we just succumb to the notion that we have to work at least 5 days a week (yay magic numbers) just so we can please our corporate overlords.
Lightbody 6y ago
The key thing here, as most people have noted, is that although it's a bit more time, the flexibility and lack of commute makes it an overall net positive. I think this is actually already what most people doing WFH have already experienced. Whether you're WFH forever or just during this lockdown, the key thing is to be aware of your time and create some routines that break up your day in ways that bring you joy and peak productivity. (stop reading if you dislike a little self promotion) For anyone interested, I cofounded a startup (https://reclaim.ai https://reclaim.ai) hat helps here. It lets you establish personal and professional habits and block out time for tasks, while preserving max availability for genuinely necessary meetings. If you're struggling with this stuff and on Google Calendar, give it a shot :)
PakG1 6y ago
I'm working longer because now everyone expects my availability 24/7, rather than just during office hours.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  Just turn the notifications off. I turn slack off (currently in office until notice period is up then remote) even when I'm at the office and I don't have a phone on my desk, if someone wants something so urgent it's worth distracting me they can physically come find me.
Bloggerzune 6y ago
I guess my problem is that "what makes you happy" .. "is a fancy car" (you can go in debt to get) is a message that is "loud" and unlike a house (arguably the other functional yet status symbol) is within reach of people who it isn't in their best interest to get. I think it's a nuanced subject because as most things in life it's mixed up in all aspects of human life like financial education and personal responsibility but what I'm saying is that current "car culture" (to sweep away all the nuance) doesn't feel right to me right now and I think causes a lot of harm... https://www.bloggerzune.com/2020/07/Indeed-Prime.html?m=1 https://www.bloggerzune.com/2020/07/Indeed-Prime.html?m=1
badrabbit 6y ago
What will happen when people get burned out and they can't escape work to recover because they live at work now?
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  Feeling in the middle of this now. It’s honestly starting to feel like hell.
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    Sorry to hear friend. If you have family and friends that can hang out with you, try making regular outside time with them. Heck, or just take a daily walk at the park (with masks,etc...).
zarkov99 6y ago
People have to, at least parents do. Its pretty hard to get things done with the kids in the house.
rafaelvasco 6y ago
I in fact realized how much time I spent locked down in an office everyday. And it seems too much. And now with home office, I'm locked down most of the day again, at home. With this corona situation I was unemployed for 4 months. I finally had time for my own projects. And I was able to actually finish them. I'm now working home-office for a company. But the idea of earning money with my own projects remains.
imtringued 6y ago
My company has a strict no overtime policy for remote employees. I can't work longer even if I wanted to unless I do the work in secret.
robniep 6y ago
Personally I see an increase in hours worked per week, but I feel like my meetings are more frequent and longer than average.

285 points by hhs 6y ago

hhs 6y ago

If interested, this is the study they reference: https://www.nber.org/papers/w27612 https://www.nber.org/papers/w27612

LockAndLol 6y ago
What I'd like to know is how they collected that data from 3.1M people. > To study this question, we acquired de-identified, aggregated meta-data from an information technology services provider that licenses digital communications solutions to organizations around the world. I'm guessing Slack, Teams or some other company provided them with this data. If they have access to this data, then what kind of data do employers have access to? > Using the span of time defined by the first and last email sent or meeting attended in a 24-hour period, we also find the average workday span increased by +48.5 minutes So that's how they define a workday. When you're in an office, you have lunch with colleagues and there might be pressure to end it quickly, especially if your boss is joining. At home, you can easily take a few more minutes, which might actually be the 8% increase they are seeing here. To add to this, just because the workday seems longer, it doesn't mean that the entire time was spent working. It's possible to take more breaks when you need it.
- jfk13 6y ago
  > Using the span of time defined by the first and last email sent or meeting attended in a 24-hour period What a worthless definition. I often start my day with hours of development or debugging work that doesn't involve sending any emails or attending any meetings, so that would be completely missed. I can't be the only such person, surely. On the other hand, timezone issues mean that I sometimes have late-night meetings, so I'd look really dedicated on those days. Of course, that'd miss the fact that I took time out to go shopping, make dinner, do some gardening, watch a movie, or whatever... all that now counts as part of my "work day" because of a late-night meeting. Seems like they've come up with something essentially meaningless here. This "workday span" is (a) wildly inaccurate for anyone whose role is more than sending emails and sitting in meetings, and (b) totally ignores the fact that many people when working from home have huge flexibility to take breaks when it suits them. Ah well... I suppose a publication "dedicated to the design and management of workplaces" has to try and justify its existence somehow.

papito 6y ago

This is a matter of time discipline. Start your workday at 9AM. Someone sending you a Slack message at 7AM - too bad - you are in the middle of your morning routine. At end of day, log out of your work account or shut down the work laptop, whichever case may be. You are not using your personal user account and a work account during the day still, ARE YOU?

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sascha_sl 6y ago
>You are not using your personal user account and a work account during the day still, ARE YOU? In my defense, I'm on call a lot.
- yladiz 6y ago
  On call doesn’t mean always available for anything, though. It should mean if something truly breaks you’re there to help fix it. If the former is the case, I’d definitely set some boundaries to reduce that over time.
  - jniedrauer 6y ago
    In an early stage startup with customers, you're on call 24/7/365.
    - ntauthority 6y ago
      And inevitably, when trying not to be, you are anyway. Fun times getting out a tablet to tweak firewall settings deflecting a DDoS attack while at a furniture store. At least at home, people won't look at you oddly when you take out a tablet out of nowhere because, yes, something is down, and people will want it to be solved right away.
- papito 6y ago
  I mean, on call is on call. That's different. But do you have a sane rotation schedule?

chrisgd 6y ago

I was let go but I found that I worked a lot longer as it was harder to get things done with two kids in the background. Even as my wife struggled to keep them away and let me work, inevitably I felt the need to help her or help the older one with online school. As far as telling people that I wasn’t available at certain times, that just didn’t seem to be an option.

harlanji 6y ago
What didn’t work about telling people that you weren’t available at certain times? I’ve had this feeling as well, but in practice I find that people either respect my boundary or try to get a reason and then argue with the reason—the latter type now just send me the signal that I don’t want to depend on people like this anymore and that I should make space for new people. Asking more to trigger reflection than for an answer, rhetorically I think that’d be called. Best wishes. (Ps. It’s true that I’m homeless, if you check my history, and I don’t feel that’s an indication of having boundaries not being sustainable, I think I just had a lot of old garbage from being weak that lead me here but I’m more likely to overcome it with this approach, even if it’s slower).
- chrisgd 6y ago
  I was in finance. Telling a senior level person about needing my own time jeopardizes my bonus. Which was 50% of my total comp

option 6y ago

my wife and I both work full-time (SWE). Have been fun WFH with 2 and 5 year olds. And, I know, we are among the lucky ones who got to keep their jobs.

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elil17 6y ago

Personally, I’ve been working harder because I lost my sense of job security. My company wasn’t hit hard, but there are so many people looking for jobs right now that I could easily be replaced. I feel I have to constantly impress my bosses to keep my job.

davidw 6y ago

I am getting very tired of living at work. I miss going in to the office.

booleandilemma 6y ago
Agreed. Between work and non-work, I’m literally spending over 12 hours per day in my living room. No matter what some people would have us believe, this can’t be healthy.
- Solvitieg 6y ago
  As a single person I've found it difficult. I've made efforts to go out after work, spend time with friends, and get back into my hobbies. But none of these are enough to make up for the 8 hours of social interaction I was getting each weekday by being in the office. Also as a single person, working in an office environment downtown felt like I had way more opportunity. Opportunity to move up in the company, opportunity to meet a girlfriend, etc. Oh well I guess there's Tinder.
  - cheerlessbog 6y ago
    I have a couple single friends in your position who were getting dangerously lonely. They got a cat in one case dog in the other and it hasn’t fixed anything but it’s given them a reason to get outside and a bit more of something alive in their life

NamTaf 6y ago

I believe I'm working on average longer hours, but I'm able to more flexibly use my own time whilst doing so. I'll work as I'm watching a Twitch stream, for example, and I feel far more relaxed doing this than trying to focus 100% on work and only work. I can pick when I work, so when I'm feeling completely mindless and distracted at 2pm I can just zone out and do my own thing, but then make it up later. For me, the hours might be longer (even not counting the breaks in the day), but the time when working is more relaxed. I prefer this balance.

varrock 6y ago
> I can pick when I work, so when I'm feeling completely mindless and distracted at 2pm I can just zone out and do my own thing, but then make it up later. This is by far my favorite perk of working from home. I’ve been able to max my efficiency. When I hit this wall, I usually go do something that requires me to move around, such as going to the grocery store or doing laundry, which are things I would’ve had to do anyways. The difference is that I’m doing those tasks when I’d otherwise be sitting at my desk being unproductive. It’s kind of like intuitive eating; working when your brain is up for it. Of course, you can’t utilize this luxury every day and every hour, as often times you do need to bunker down to accommodate the typical 9-5 schedule. But, it’s still much more apparent than when being in an office.
rosstex 6y ago
This is a slippery slope towards overworking, where work blends into life. This isn't how things should be. Unless you're a PhD student like me :)
- maps7 6y ago
  > This isn't how things should be What is this based on?
  - xapata 6y ago
    That was clearly a subjective ethical statement. The speaker would have used "ought" if they wanted to appear objective.

brushfoot 6y ago

Not that the article claims this, but this doesn't mean lockdown is leading to more or better work getting done, of course. It may just mean work-life balance is harder now that the lines have been further blurred. Or maybe work without commutes is relatively more relaxing to the point where start and stop times don't seem to matter as much.

daveFNbuck 6y ago

This says that people work 48 more minutes per day on average. I looked up the mean commute time in the US, and it's 26.6 minutes each way. So this would still be a small net win for people who are working from home. The win is bigger if you factor in being home for lunch and other breaks.

foepys 6y ago
On my home commute I take short detours to buy groceries, go to the bank, get my hair cut, go to the gym, etc. When I do a whole week of home office I actually don't gain that much extra free time because I need to go to these places anyways.
- jethro_tell 6y ago
  Also, I would pay someone to do my lunch and breakfast cooking and dishes. Now I do that myself which I enjoy but the 15 minute lunch is no more for me. Plus that was a small walk. Now I cook, tidy up and go for a walk before sitting back down. A net win and better productivity for my life, but I don't have that much more time in my day. Also kids, so that may make this an irrelevant data point. But I'm cooking 4/5 meals a day and doing 3 loads of dishes a day, up from one of each.
kdmccormick 6y ago
Sure, on the surface, that's ~6 minutes "won back" during lockdown... but time commuting and time working are not equatable. Speaking for myself, my commute is a time to focus on something simple, reflect, and listen to the radio or podcasts. Work, while more interesting, is infinitely more mentally and emotionally taxing. Also, lunch at the office can be a nice time to take a break and socialiaze, whereas lunch at home can turn into eating in front of one's laptop.
- benrbray 6y ago
  Commuting by train, I agree! But when I commuted by car in the past, it was a time to languish in my vehicle, parked on the highway, wondering why a drive normally taking 15 minutes on weekends instead takes 60 minutes on a work day. Definitely not a de-stresser for me!

Finnucane 6y ago

I’ve been adapting my schedule partly to the weather. When it is hot during the day, I try to shift some of my work to cooler hours.

randycupertino 6y ago
Ditto- except when it's lovely and sunny out, I'll make sure I block out 45 minutes to go do some yoga on the deck or garden in the yard.

dijit 6y ago

Oh. I’m definitely working more hours total. But I might go to the shop or take a 20 minute nap if I’m feeling frazzled. Overall I prefer this interleaving of my work and my life, but I appreciate that it shouldn’t be expected.

zelphirkalt 6y ago

From personal experience I can confirm: I worked longer and more efficiently during working from home (WFH). There were a few more meetings as well. Sometimes a few developers and I simply stayed in a conference call for almost the whole working day. I had to start maintaining a log o working hours to stop doing more than 8 hours. There was always that last thing I wanted to get done that day, often costing 1 or 2 more hours. And that was still better than having to waste 1h+ on the way to the office and 1h+ on the way back. I am not sure I would decline, if I was offered to work 9h a day but was allowed to WFH. I would still start earlier and be done earlier than when not WFH.

idclip 6y ago
I had a similar experience! Did yoga in between, it was even very healing.
vorticalbox 6y ago
My comuite was 2 hours two work and 2 back, getting up at half 5 every day. Since the office is now WFH I get more sleep and am far more productive. I two find myself doing 1-2 hours extra a day though I am trying to reign that back in. I had always said at work I am just as productive at home as I am in the office and this lock down gave me the chance to prove it

mrlatinos 6y ago

Horrible website, post the study instead.

amelius 6y ago

The obvious reason why we work longer: we have no social lives anymore ...

saurik 6y ago
Yeah. I am extremely confused that you seem to be the only comment on this entire thread who isn't focused on commuting tradeoffs or work/life balance due to commingled environments, as if this is "life a small usual, except working from home"... I have always worked from home (and think people who go to an office are crazy), and my job is thereby identical to what it was before COVID-19... and yet, I am working much longer hours because I have absolutely nothing else to do :/. I used to go out to eat a lot, hang out with friends, go to movies and concerts and events, I live next to a university where I could drop in on classes and talk to professors, I used to go to a lot of conferences (which you could argue was "for work", but frankly we all know a lot of the time spent at them isn't just a vacation you can justify as being sort of related to your job; do I really need to go to CES every year? no)... hell: I used to spend a weirdly large amount of time just grocery shopping, as I enjoyed finding new foods and it was an activity around people I didn't have to interact with (as we are all doing stuff), but since I live in a small-ish town (where I am even in local politics, which helps make it smaller for me) I would often run into people I know and exchange at least a few pleasantries; but now we all treat grocery shopping as something to do seldom, in bulk: it is all very transactional and you can't wander the isles for an hour, or get into conversations with people. So like, now, I am spending more time on random hobbies, but those are still a bit lonely :/. I have gained a bunch of weight, in no small part because I have gotten better at cooking... just for me :(. I swear I am mostly an introvert, but I know I have an extroverted streak (it is why I am able to be a politician and a public speaker despite kind of hating other people ;P) and I normally have ways to burn that off but I just don't have that at all anymore. I have watched an infinite number of movies and TV shows (I now have a "quota" to get through three movies a day ;P...), as my brain considers the people on the screen vaguely similar to being around other humans (this has even caused me to start following people I don't know on social media--like Instagram and TikTok--as it causes the same trick), but that only uses part of my brain most of the time (most movies aren't good) and so I still want to do something while watching them (which also helps my brain not realize they aren't made from real people). You know what working has? Coordination with other people on what feels like a shared sense of purpose. I need that right now :(.

chadlavi 6y ago

I really don't get why anyone who can choose when to stop working and whose compensation is not hourly would ever work longer hours. Your time doesn't belong to your employer.

xerosis 6y ago
Because often people rely on that work and it needs to be done ?
cj 6y ago
Some people enjoy their work. It's not always 100% about the money.
- randomProducer 6y ago
  > It's not always 100% about the money. ... for the employee
  - lipstone 6y ago
    It's not 100% about money for the employer, either. Human emotions are real and managers aren't just blindly following game theory.
    - randomProducer 6y ago
      You're right it's not 100% but I made that comment to admittedly "get a reaction". I think it's good to remind people of this dynamic, the way you think about your workplace is just half the story. > Human emotions are real and managers aren't just blindly following game theory Absolutely, which means this isn't guaranteed. This isn't part of a companies DNA ( you could argue good people always get hired?). This isn't true for all work places. The truth is it depends on the people that work there and just like you mentioned that you could have caring emotional humans as managers, you can also have not-caring emotional humans as managers. If I had to make a grand generalization about most workplaces then I think it's safer to say they would care more about money (for profit/staying in business) than I would say they care about making me, an employee, happy. Having said that I've worked in great places where I don't feel it's 100% about the money. I know some of that feeling is genuine because of the people I work with. I also know that feeling is intended and is the primary focus of some departments in companies. I know that I'm in a field that has enjoys greater privileges than other workers. I try to remind myself about this and I think I'm ok with saying that "it's 99% about the money for the employer". A bit cynical (or realist depending on your view).

SomeHacker44 6y ago

I feel that I work more, but I spend less time at work. I may work 30 minutes more a day, on average, but save 2 hours commuting, $130 in mass transit and a bunch in lunch money. As others said, I can also modify my hours a bit as needed. I also have vastly more and longer meetings, unlike the article.

tommymachine 6y ago
You spend 130 a day on mass transit?

alyandon 6y ago

I'm technically working longer because I'm not spending 70-120 additional minutes of each day commuting 14 miles to/from the office. Despite working longer, I still end up having more free time. It is amazing how I manage to rationalize sitting in traffic for that amount of time every day to myself.

bdcravens 6y ago
I will say that driving less I have to look for opportunities to consume the podcasts that I find valuable.
- cloudwalking 6y ago
  Yeah, I've gone from 60-90 minutes of podcasts per day to zero.
  - dkokelley 6y ago
    I listen to them on walking breaks during the day.
    - bredren 6y ago
      I listen while walking my leash trained cat early in the morning.
  - bdcravens 6y ago
    I do listen them while I'm showering, as well as when I'm doing mindless chores, so my consumption hasn't gone to entirely 0.
- drdeadringer 6y ago
  I'm the same. I keep bumping up on the max capacity of my .mp3 player despite finding which tasks would be better served to double up.
- joegahona 6y ago

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dade_ 6y ago

I’ve definitely noticed shorter meetings and it is now more common to end the meetings when the topics are covered. However, there are a few people that I work with that simply must blather on until the schedule time is used up. Making up additional topics, begging people on the call to raise additional items which are always completely off topic and unimportant. Perhaps they are lonely, but it is especially annoying with video calls. I am going to get rude about it one of these days.

rosywoozlechan 6y ago
> I am going to get rude about it one of these days. I doubt that strategy will be effective.
joegahona 6y ago
Rather than getting rude, get passive aggressive. Just drop off the calls and blame Comcast -- something that's more difficult to do in an in-person meeting.
- jedberg 6y ago
  Someone created a video background for Zoom that says "reconnecting..." in the same font Zoom uses for other stuff. They just put that up and step out of frame.
aprdm 6y ago
Why can’t you simply leave the meeting? Put a chat message gotta go bye (or equivalent) and turn off.
tdfx 6y ago
The appropriate phrase I've found to be effective for when someone is wasting my time is "this seems to be out of scope for me right now". It forces someone to justify why this waste of your time is somehow relevant, which they usually can't do. Ex: "I'll leave you guys to finish talking through this one as it seems out of scope for me right now. I'm going to get started on previously-discussed-priority-item." For someone to ask you to remain on the call after that is implicitly saying their discussion is more important than another item that has been agreed to be a priority.

x87678r 6y ago

I think I need to go back to the office just to get a better separation between work and home. Working during the week I'm helping with kids and house stuff, and if I have nothing to do for a few hours on the weekend I'm dialling in to work to finish stuff off I should have done during the week. Its all becoming a blur and I'm not doing either role well.

m463 6y ago
My experience seems to be similar to yours. I think this may be one of those weird paradoxes of life. I wonder if in 5 years when (if?) people are back in the office we will pine away for these times. It might be a good time to set appropriate boundaries, self-manage better, and make the most of the situation. I look at it as maybe practice for retirement. I think a lot of people have these retirement dreams that are poorly imagined and when the time comes they'll mismanage their time left. Maybe getting this right could end up being retirement with a job you like instead of "any old" retirement thing to pass the time.
tetha 6y ago
As much as I oppose forcing people into the office, there is nothing intrinsically bad about being in the office. Two guys from our team are in a similar situation as you are and we've agreed on them taking up our office spots permanently. It's still simple to control and track contact in that situation in case an infection occurs. But all in all, it's been a great boost for their mental well being.
- nogridbag 6y ago
  Sounds like those guys are either fortunate to be able to live on one persons's salary or they feel comfortable returning the kids to daycare.
bojan 6y ago
How do you both have kids and have nothing to do for a few hours on the weekend?
- 6y ago

m3kw9 6y ago

Is probably more spread out instead of longer they need to know the difference

icegreentea2 6y ago

I wonder how much is people anticipating that a hammer is probably coming. In nearly all areas of North America and Europe, even the best managed countries are expecting some sort of economic downturn - and it's likely to spread and impact every industry eventually to some degree. I know that I'm thinking that a bit. No one wants to be the easy pickings when the layoffs come rolling around.

irrational 6y ago

I’ve reverted to my natural sleep cycle of 3:00am-11am or so. It has been great for my health.

rossgordon 6y ago

It's all about finding the perfect work/life harmony, though. Everyone's lives have slowed down considerably, and in many ways work is a necessary and welcomed use of time. As long as you have enough time to spend with your loved ones and pursue your hobbies, working more may not be a bad thing. My thoughts on work/life balance: https://gridology.substack.com/p/gridology-8-how-can-i-strike-a-better https://gridology.substack.com/p/gridology-8-how-can-i-strik...

namelosw 6y ago

I love WFH but I found myself having serious productivity issues because I'm an ADHD guy and I'm having procrastination issues, and WFH makes it even more serious. At first, I was struggling because I always wanted to open YouTube or just stay there and thinking about random things and basically doing nothing for hours. Eventually I have to secretly compensate with my own time regretfully. Then I found when every time I compensate the work at night I'm pretty productive because I'm under enough pressure to keep me focus and not overthinking things. At that moment, I realized I can swap the time slots to maximize everything. Now I usually try to start working in the morning, as long as I'm productive, and setup a timer to keep tracking on how long did I work. When I found myself stop being productive and my mind is wandering, I would pause the timer and just relax - do what ever I want, just not struggling anymore. When I feel I'm ready to work, I would go back to work, and repeat. The most important part is, if according to the timer I only worked 5 hours today and I ought to work 8 hours, I would start working no later than 9pm (given I usually slept at 12pm). It gives me enough time to finish my stuff, while I would unconsciously understand it's the deadline thus it gives me the pressure to focus and being productive. It's pretty effective for me, and it helped me being able to keep being productive without struggling. Some people may argue it's not good working ethic, but as Martin Fowler suggested "Don't tell your manager (you're refactoring)" (because refactoring would be a part of developing). Usually in the office, there were times I have to force myself working in low productivity mode. I'm refactoring my time to keep both my productivity sanity.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
Same here! I usually just watch YouTube during work hours or go for a walk until I feel that “flow state” coming on then I’ll work until whenever.
sosborn 6y ago
IMO “good working ethic” is only about doing your work and doing it well. It doesn’t mean anything about working continuously for 8 hours.
- whateveracct 6y ago

internet2000 6y ago

Someone should map the sentiment in HN comments on working from home during Coronavirus articles, I bet it would look interesting. I feel like they're getting gradually more negative. (I personally can't wait to go back to the office.)

ghaff 6y ago
I'm not sure it's necessarily more negative as that people who resignedly accepted the current situation are seeing that the "new normal," while not 100% remote in most cases, is probably often not going to be entire teams working together in one location. Which means, more or less, that teams will have to work as if everyone is remote to be effective. And that's a big change.
cheerlessbog 6y ago
What if your employer did the same as Twitter etc and declared working from home was allowed forever. Could you imagine moving somewhere you’d love to be - with excellent internet - finding new friends there and being happier than other situation?
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  If the new normal world is too dangerous to sit in an office together, how on earth would you find new friends if you moved? It doesn’t make sense.
  - cheerlessbog 6y ago
    Doing stuff outdoors or by other means staying apart
- muffinman26 6y ago
  Working from home is already allowed at my company, but if they moved to everyone working from home indefinitely I would absolutely leave the company, even if it meant taking a significant pay cut and changing careers. I don't want to stare at a computer screen without in-person interaction for 8 hours/day.

birdyrooster 6y ago

Anecdotal: I work less hours and different hours under lockdown. Burnout means I barely do shit and no one can tell the difference because I was just doing the same thing (YouTube and Twitter) at work anyways.

Mupuff 6y ago

We should all be working only 3\4 days of the week. When you think of it, it's crazy how we just succumb to the notion that we have to work at least 5 days a week (yay magic numbers) just so we can please our corporate overlords.

Lightbody 6y ago

The key thing here, as most people have noted, is that although it's a bit more time, the flexibility and lack of commute makes it an overall net positive. I think this is actually already what most people doing WFH have already experienced. Whether you're WFH forever or just during this lockdown, the key thing is to be aware of your time and create some routines that break up your day in ways that bring you joy and peak productivity. (stop reading if you dislike a little self promotion) For anyone interested, I cofounded a startup (https://reclaim.ai https://reclaim.ai) hat helps here. It lets you establish personal and professional habits and block out time for tasks, while preserving max availability for genuinely necessary meetings. If you're struggling with this stuff and on Google Calendar, give it a shot :)

PakG1 6y ago

I'm working longer because now everyone expects my availability 24/7, rather than just during office hours.

noir_lord 6y ago
Just turn the notifications off. I turn slack off (currently in office until notice period is up then remote) even when I'm at the office and I don't have a phone on my desk, if someone wants something so urgent it's worth distracting me they can physically come find me.

Bloggerzune 6y ago

I guess my problem is that "what makes you happy" .. "is a fancy car" (you can go in debt to get) is a message that is "loud" and unlike a house (arguably the other functional yet status symbol) is within reach of people who it isn't in their best interest to get. I think it's a nuanced subject because as most things in life it's mixed up in all aspects of human life like financial education and personal responsibility but what I'm saying is that current "car culture" (to sweep away all the nuance) doesn't feel right to me right now and I think causes a lot of harm... https://www.bloggerzune.com/2020/07/Indeed-Prime.html?m=1 https://www.bloggerzune.com/2020/07/Indeed-Prime.html?m=1

badrabbit 6y ago

What will happen when people get burned out and they can't escape work to recover because they live at work now?

whywhywhywhy 6y ago
Feeling in the middle of this now. It’s honestly starting to feel like hell.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  Sorry to hear friend. If you have family and friends that can hang out with you, try making regular outside time with them. Heck, or just take a daily walk at the park (with masks,etc...).

zarkov99 6y ago

People have to, at least parents do. Its pretty hard to get things done with the kids in the house.

rafaelvasco 6y ago

I in fact realized how much time I spent locked down in an office everyday. And it seems too much. And now with home office, I'm locked down most of the day again, at home. With this corona situation I was unemployed for 4 months. I finally had time for my own projects. And I was able to actually finish them. I'm now working home-office for a company. But the idea of earning money with my own projects remains.

imtringued 6y ago

My company has a strict no overtime policy for remote employees. I can't work longer even if I wanted to unless I do the work in secret.

robniep 6y ago

Personally I see an increase in hours worked per week, but I feel like my meetings are more frequent and longer than average.