3 ms·

(edit: wrong Epic the company; oh well) Software engineers in the "regular" industry indeed are better off without unions. There's no obvious problem that unio

by krasin 6y ago

(edit: wrong Epic the company; oh well) Software engineers in the "regular" industry indeed are better off without unions. There's no obvious problem that unions would solve, and there are costs (unions in general add inefficiency). In gamedev, though, salaries are low and work/life balance is traditionally very poor. I can see why some Epic workers decided to consider unionizing.

adjkant 6y ago
This is healthcare, not gamedev
- krasin 6y ago
  Thanks!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
worldsayshi 6y ago
> Software engineers in the "regular" industry indeed are better off without unions. How do we know that?
- krasin 6y ago
  Software engineering is a global market. Unions are local to the US. If unionizing becomes a thing, it will be a huge boost to developers in Eastern Europe, China, India, Mexico, but a big blow to the US. And it's not about offshoring a-la 1995 or 2005. It's about building the whole company outside of the US, only having minimal presence here for fundraising / legal / whatever. There is already a number of startups executing this strategy; unions will immediately make it a no-brainer for all new companies.
  - jkaplowitz 6y ago
    The salaries paid to skilled US tech workers in the tech hubs without unions are already so much higher than anywhere else in the world, even after adjusting for cost of living, that I don't see the impact happening the way you say it. The workers who have skills and experience would unionize at some tech workplaces so that they don't have to job hop for fair treatment, but in any case they already make more in the US than elsewhere, because employers know they have to go to the US tech hubs to have a high concentration of great tech workers, and unions wouldn't change this. (I know there are many great tech workers elsewhere, but not nearly as concentrated.) Most of the high-skilled tech hubs I'm aware of outside the US are in countries with stronger worker protections than the US, and often more unionization too. (This does vary, absolutely - worker rights are greater in Berlin or Paris than they are in Zurich or London.) Now, for low-paid low-skilled workers, the situation might be different, but those aren't determinative of where a tech company is based long-term, and the union would be best if it spans all skill levels. Unions aren't just a US thing, by the way. Hello from Quebec where unions are far more common than anywhere in the US. Even undergraduate university students are typically unionized here, complete with strikes and cross-university federations with elected leadership. Much of Europe is also far more unionized than the US, though certainly not the part of it you referenced by Eastern Europe (maybe aside from Finland).
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    I doubt it. Since it is a sellers market, devs might be drawn to places where they have benefits. I doubt that many US or European devs would want to work for wages common in India and I don't think these particular startups are too relevant.
morelisp 6y ago
> There's no obvious problem that unions would solve - No more stack ranking or other absurd professional advancement schemes - Refusing unethical business practices (to take an example in the spotlight again, reusing 2FA phone numbers for any other purpose) - Refusing unethical business relationships (China, ICE) - Higher liquidation preferences for more employees - Working hours (end of "unlimited" vacation; on-call restrictions; prior to COVID, WFH) - Racial and sexual harassment across vertical hierarchies (unions alone won't solve these problems in tech - they can even make horizontal harassment worse if union leadership is not committed to this goal - but could have ousted e.g. Gundotra or Drummond much sooner)
- eru 6y ago
  You can already pick your employer based on these criteria. What makes you think unions will push these harder? Also what about people who have different preferences? You might get lucky and the brave new world of software unions will push for exactly those conditions. Unluckily for me, I have very different preferences.
  - Frondo 6y ago
    "If you don't like the working conditions, you can leave." Why does that only apply when people are trying to dismiss the value of unions or discourage their colleagues from forming a union with their coworkers? Surely if you didn't want to work in a union shop, but a majority of your coworkers did, it'd be on you to just find a new employer.
    - eru 6y ago
      You are right! Though one caveat: that simple analysis only applies for as long as employers are legally allowed to refuse to hire union members. Then anti-union me can go to some anti-union company. We write in our employment contract that I won't join a union, and that the company will never hire any union members, and we live happily ever after. You can try to think through the consequences of giving unions various legal privileges. Eg if for example, a company can't legally discriminate against union members in hiring nor fire an established employee who joins a union despite having promised not to, things might be different. Especially if you add in common extra privileges like banning employers from firing striking unions members or if picketing is legalised etc.
jkaplowitz 6y ago
Information transparency and negotiating assistance with respect to compensation, better handling of harassment and discrimination claims, and better protections against arbitrary termination without either chance to improve that's more genuine than most PIPs (if bad performance or mild misbehavior is claimed) or a right to compensation (if it's something like a layoff or restructuring). Very real problems in the tech industry, all of which a union could help with, and none of which require the clearly mismatched "you can't touch that socket - call the union electrician" contract provisions from industries like trade shows that the anti-union people like to overfocus on.

by krasin 6y ago

adjkant 6y ago

This is healthcare, not gamedev

krasin 6y ago
Thanks!

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

worldsayshi 6y ago

> Software engineers in the "regular" industry indeed are better off without unions. How do we know that?

krasin 6y ago
Software engineering is a global market. Unions are local to the US. If unionizing becomes a thing, it will be a huge boost to developers in Eastern Europe, China, India, Mexico, but a big blow to the US. And it's not about offshoring a-la 1995 or 2005. It's about building the whole company outside of the US, only having minimal presence here for fundraising / legal / whatever. There is already a number of startups executing this strategy; unions will immediately make it a no-brainer for all new companies.
- jkaplowitz 6y ago
  The salaries paid to skilled US tech workers in the tech hubs without unions are already so much higher than anywhere else in the world, even after adjusting for cost of living, that I don't see the impact happening the way you say it. The workers who have skills and experience would unionize at some tech workplaces so that they don't have to job hop for fair treatment, but in any case they already make more in the US than elsewhere, because employers know they have to go to the US tech hubs to have a high concentration of great tech workers, and unions wouldn't change this. (I know there are many great tech workers elsewhere, but not nearly as concentrated.) Most of the high-skilled tech hubs I'm aware of outside the US are in countries with stronger worker protections than the US, and often more unionization too. (This does vary, absolutely - worker rights are greater in Berlin or Paris than they are in Zurich or London.) Now, for low-paid low-skilled workers, the situation might be different, but those aren't determinative of where a tech company is based long-term, and the union would be best if it spans all skill levels. Unions aren't just a US thing, by the way. Hello from Quebec where unions are far more common than anywhere in the US. Even undergraduate university students are typically unionized here, complete with strikes and cross-university federations with elected leadership. Much of Europe is also far more unionized than the US, though certainly not the part of it you referenced by Eastern Europe (maybe aside from Finland).
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  I doubt it. Since it is a sellers market, devs might be drawn to places where they have benefits. I doubt that many US or European devs would want to work for wages common in India and I don't think these particular startups are too relevant.

morelisp 6y ago

> There's no obvious problem that unions would solve - No more stack ranking or other absurd professional advancement schemes - Refusing unethical business practices (to take an example in the spotlight again, reusing 2FA phone numbers for any other purpose) - Refusing unethical business relationships (China, ICE) - Higher liquidation preferences for more employees - Working hours (end of "unlimited" vacation; on-call restrictions; prior to COVID, WFH) - Racial and sexual harassment across vertical hierarchies (unions alone won't solve these problems in tech - they can even make horizontal harassment worse if union leadership is not committed to this goal - but could have ousted e.g. Gundotra or Drummond much sooner)

eru 6y ago
You can already pick your employer based on these criteria. What makes you think unions will push these harder? Also what about people who have different preferences? You might get lucky and the brave new world of software unions will push for exactly those conditions. Unluckily for me, I have very different preferences.
- Frondo 6y ago
  "If you don't like the working conditions, you can leave." Why does that only apply when people are trying to dismiss the value of unions or discourage their colleagues from forming a union with their coworkers? Surely if you didn't want to work in a union shop, but a majority of your coworkers did, it'd be on you to just find a new employer.
  - eru 6y ago
    You are right! Though one caveat: that simple analysis only applies for as long as employers are legally allowed to refuse to hire union members. Then anti-union me can go to some anti-union company. We write in our employment contract that I won't join a union, and that the company will never hire any union members, and we live happily ever after. You can try to think through the consequences of giving unions various legal privileges. Eg if for example, a company can't legally discriminate against union members in hiring nor fire an established employee who joins a union despite having promised not to, things might be different. Especially if you add in common extra privileges like banning employers from firing striking unions members or if picketing is legalised etc.

jkaplowitz 6y ago

Information transparency and negotiating assistance with respect to compensation, better handling of harassment and discrimination claims, and better protections against arbitrary termination without either chance to improve that's more genuine than most PIPs (if bad performance or mild misbehavior is claimed) or a right to compensation (if it's something like a layoff or restructuring). Very real problems in the tech industry, all of which a union could help with, and none of which require the clearly mismatched "you can't touch that socket - call the union electrician" contract provisions from industries like trade shows that the anti-union people like to overfocus on.