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I feel like as of late, when China sees some success that the US does not, there’s a sentiment that they succeeded only because they’re a lesser society. They h

I feel like as of late, when China sees some success that the US does not, there’s a sentiment that they succeeded only because they’re a lesser society. They have fewer coronavirus cases only because Chinese people are docile, obedient sheeple who hate freedom, or TikTok succeeded because Chinese corporations are happy to discriminate against groups that western corporations would obviously protect out of the goodness of their hearts. The Slate article you linked talks about Facebook doing a similar thing, and facing a similar backlash. Is it really that hard to believe that a country of over a billion people, with a mature domestic tech industry and startup scene, would eventually produce something that would compete successfully in the west?

dfxm12 6y ago
They have fewer coronavirus cases only because Chinese people are docile, obedient sheeple who hate freedom Who made this argument?
- quicklime 6y ago
  The idea of Chinese people (and Asians in general) being obedient to authority is something that I’ve heard frequently from people and in the news, but I didn’t mean to imply that sandworm101 made that particular argument.
  - jaybeeayyy 6y ago
    You can also look at the initial blaming of COVID on China in the media...The COVID pandemic was the result of either 3rd world-like food markets where poor/dirty people sell exotic meats to each other or that COVID got out of some underground lab where they do experiments and can't contain anything. No one explicitly said that but it was implied pretty heavily especially when you look at how people received the news and interpreted it in memes and whatnot. I sent pictures of Wuhan to some family/friends and they were amazed at how big and impressive of a city it is. They thought it was like a small developing village. It's kind of how we always talk about China though (regarding your initial comment) and I'm not sure if/when it will ever stop.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      >> poor/dirty people sell exotic meats While I wouldn't phrase it that way, the so-called wet markets where dozens of live animals are sold in unsanitary conditions are a problem. Western nations do have a variety of health/hygiene laws that effectively make such markets illegal. They are seen as a primitive/backwards/dangerous throwback to something rightly done away with long ago.
      - vkou 6y ago
        Western nations don't have those kinds of wet markets, but we have plenty of our own unhygienic, dangerous practices when it comes to food. Take factory farming, for example. Take the mountains of antibiotics we are shoving into factory farmed animals. Take the numerous warnings from experts in biology about how this use of antibiotics is incredibly dangerous, because it has the potential to be a breeding ground for antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria. Now, consider what we are doing about shutting down, or even mitigating the danger posed by those factory farms. Next to nothing - there's a few fringe environmentalist groups, there's a small vegan movement, there's a few yuppies who make sure to tell everyone that they only source organic, hand-raised, cruelty-free meat that costs them $40/lb. But the average person doesn't give two damns about it - and the average politician in agricultural-heavy ridings is entirely in the pocket of those industries. [1] Disclaimer: I don't buy organic, hand-raised, cruelty-free meat, that would cost me $40/lb. I'm part of this problem. There's a lot of utility in cheap meat. Meat is delicious. But alternatives do exist. [1] See the popularity of ag-gag laws - intended to suppress information, so that the public only gets one side of this story.
        mrkramer 6y ago
        Hygiene in China is like in medieval Europe, nowadays in Europe only big cities are dirty which is in the most cases result of mismanagement of mayor/s. In Southeast Europe where I live cities are clean af. The thing that bothers me personally is absurd amount of pets on the streets in my country. When I go for a walk I see like 30 dogs.
  - jbay808 6y ago
    I certainly saw a lot of people writing things like "they only succeeded because they welded people into their apartment buildings". I've also read that that only happened one time and was strongly criticized within China but oh well.
  - tanilama 6y ago
    This has some truth to it. And I don't think people should take it like it is a bad thing. Not every country on the planet is so egoistic like Americans, where self discipline for greater good means communism /s
- peacefulhat 6y ago
  Yeah, it's really more like complete denial that China has less covid deaths per capita than USA, let alone 100x less. Though I have definitely seen statements like "well, this is the price of freedom and democracy."
- horsemessiah 6y ago
  My father made this argument to me, almost verbatim. It's definitely out there.
seemack 6y ago
> there’s a sentiment that they succeeded only because they’re a lesser society Can you clarify what you mean by "lesser society"?
sandworm101 6y ago
>> a mature domestic tech industry and startup scene, would eventually produce something that would compete successfully Is it too much to also believe that a company subject to a radically different regulatory regime, and different cultural norms, might field a product that would not be considered acceptable elsewhere? For example: How does TikTok handle children under 13yo? That is a real headache for western social media firms. Does China enforce similar rules? Would not having to obey such rules not represent an advantage for a product aimed at young people? The lawsuits and imposed fines suggest TikTok is substantially advantaged. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53418077 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53418077 "The company was fined 186m won (£123,000) by the Korea Communications Commission (KCC). The KCC, the country's media watchdog, said TikTok collected data of children under 14 years old without the consent of legal guardians."
- oefrha 6y ago
  You can start a rule-breaking startup today in whatever stringently-regulated regime and worry about fines later when you hit it big (and the fines are often peanuts if you hit it big, imagine any late stage VC-backed company being slapped with a record $5.7m fine). Also, the age verification honor system is really pretty much a joke, it adds a little bit of annoyance and pretty much zero deterrence. Basically it’s about knowing to put up that page in the sign-up flow. So this “advantage” you’re talking about is fairly weak.
young_unixer 6y ago
> or TikTok succeeded because Chinese corporations are happy to discriminate against groups that western corporations would obviously protect out of the goodness of their hearts. No one believes western companies do it out of the goodness of their heart. They do it in part because of fear of backlash and in part because their CEO's (especially Twitter's, Youtube's and Reddit's) want to project a philantropist image without actually doing good things.
7786655 6y ago
I don't thing the things GP is talking about are indicators of a lesser society. I don't want to look at unattractive people, and there is nothing wrong with a social media service optimizing for that preference.
- TheDong 6y ago
  > there is nothing wrong with a social media service optimizing for that preference I think there is. The world has already reached a point where we live in information bubble, surrounded by things we want to see and that agree with us. People are depressed and feel inadequate. Formerly reputable news sources have realized that people don't want to be informed, they want to be outraged, or feel smug and correct, or see pictures of cats, and so real news is relegated to a lesser status. I would much rather websites present me with the truth, even if I don't like it as much, than live my life seeing only attractive people and reading only good news, but ending up woefully depressed and un-informed, with feelings of inadequacy and no understanding of what in the world is broken. I think news agencies have a responsibility to society to present news accurately, even if people find the news less pleasent to read than pictures of cats. Similarly, I think social media companies have a duty to present a semi-accurate view of society where possible. I would rather have a realistic view of what people look like than have a series of recommendation algorithms and feedback loops result in me seeing only "conventionally attractive" people. Of course, we've kinda already screwed ourselves here with hollywood/tv/movies. Perhaps it's too late to step back.
  - 7786655 6y ago
    I never said that sites that present a semi-accurate view of society shouldn't exist. But I don't think any particular site has an obligation to be fair, as long as they aren't misrepresenting their content.
  - shard 6y ago
    I think it's fine that different social media companies target different demographics. There's no need to apply a blanket rule to all companies as to what content should be promoted on its platform. For example, people go to Netflix, Twitch, Youtube, and Pornhub for different types of video content, and it wouldn't make sense to require that they all present the same semi-accurate view of society.
rdiddly 6y ago
I'm not the GP and therefore I'm not 100% sure the idea of Western social-justice mobs stifling innovation was intended as a compliment to the West. Anyway if anyone takes anything at all from this, it's the idea that the whole source of TikTok's success is in making culture (and therefore culture wars) irrelevant. Want to look at videos of disabled, unattractive, poor people all day? Have at. Not being flippant there, although now that I think about it, I bet there are vast differences between some people's publicly-espoused views and their own watching habits, were they ever revealed by TikTok's algorithm. Edit: Went off on all sorts of tangents, but yes I totally agree with your point. In Trump-era America even success & failure fall into the fact-free zone. We succeed: Of course! We're awesome! So proud! We fail: It wasn't fair! Everybody had it out for us! They succeed: Bunch of cheaters! We took the high road! They fail: Of course! We're just too awesome for 'em! Better luck next time!
- malka 6y ago
  What you describe is called fundamental attribution error.

dfxm12 6y ago

They have fewer coronavirus cases only because Chinese people are docile, obedient sheeple who hate freedom Who made this argument?

quicklime 6y ago
The idea of Chinese people (and Asians in general) being obedient to authority is something that I’ve heard frequently from people and in the news, but I didn’t mean to imply that sandworm101 made that particular argument.
- jaybeeayyy 6y ago
  You can also look at the initial blaming of COVID on China in the media...The COVID pandemic was the result of either 3rd world-like food markets where poor/dirty people sell exotic meats to each other or that COVID got out of some underground lab where they do experiments and can't contain anything. No one explicitly said that but it was implied pretty heavily especially when you look at how people received the news and interpreted it in memes and whatnot. I sent pictures of Wuhan to some family/friends and they were amazed at how big and impressive of a city it is. They thought it was like a small developing village. It's kind of how we always talk about China though (regarding your initial comment) and I'm not sure if/when it will ever stop.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    >> poor/dirty people sell exotic meats While I wouldn't phrase it that way, the so-called wet markets where dozens of live animals are sold in unsanitary conditions are a problem. Western nations do have a variety of health/hygiene laws that effectively make such markets illegal. They are seen as a primitive/backwards/dangerous throwback to something rightly done away with long ago.
    - vkou 6y ago
      Western nations don't have those kinds of wet markets, but we have plenty of our own unhygienic, dangerous practices when it comes to food. Take factory farming, for example. Take the mountains of antibiotics we are shoving into factory farmed animals. Take the numerous warnings from experts in biology about how this use of antibiotics is incredibly dangerous, because it has the potential to be a breeding ground for antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria. Now, consider what we are doing about shutting down, or even mitigating the danger posed by those factory farms. Next to nothing - there's a few fringe environmentalist groups, there's a small vegan movement, there's a few yuppies who make sure to tell everyone that they only source organic, hand-raised, cruelty-free meat that costs them $40/lb. But the average person doesn't give two damns about it - and the average politician in agricultural-heavy ridings is entirely in the pocket of those industries. [1] Disclaimer: I don't buy organic, hand-raised, cruelty-free meat, that would cost me $40/lb. I'm part of this problem. There's a lot of utility in cheap meat. Meat is delicious. But alternatives do exist. [1] See the popularity of ag-gag laws - intended to suppress information, so that the public only gets one side of this story.
      - mrkramer 6y ago
        Hygiene in China is like in medieval Europe, nowadays in Europe only big cities are dirty which is in the most cases result of mismanagement of mayor/s. In Southeast Europe where I live cities are clean af. The thing that bothers me personally is absurd amount of pets on the streets in my country. When I go for a walk I see like 30 dogs.
- jbay808 6y ago
  I certainly saw a lot of people writing things like "they only succeeded because they welded people into their apartment buildings". I've also read that that only happened one time and was strongly criticized within China but oh well.
- tanilama 6y ago
  This has some truth to it. And I don't think people should take it like it is a bad thing. Not every country on the planet is so egoistic like Americans, where self discipline for greater good means communism /s
peacefulhat 6y ago
Yeah, it's really more like complete denial that China has less covid deaths per capita than USA, let alone 100x less. Though I have definitely seen statements like "well, this is the price of freedom and democracy."
horsemessiah 6y ago
My father made this argument to me, almost verbatim. It's definitely out there.

seemack 6y ago

> there’s a sentiment that they succeeded only because they’re a lesser society Can you clarify what you mean by "lesser society"?

sandworm101 6y ago

>> a mature domestic tech industry and startup scene, would eventually produce something that would compete successfully Is it too much to also believe that a company subject to a radically different regulatory regime, and different cultural norms, might field a product that would not be considered acceptable elsewhere? For example: How does TikTok handle children under 13yo? That is a real headache for western social media firms. Does China enforce similar rules? Would not having to obey such rules not represent an advantage for a product aimed at young people? The lawsuits and imposed fines suggest TikTok is substantially advantaged. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53418077 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53418077 "The company was fined 186m won (£123,000) by the Korea Communications Commission (KCC). The KCC, the country's media watchdog, said TikTok collected data of children under 14 years old without the consent of legal guardians."

oefrha 6y ago
You can start a rule-breaking startup today in whatever stringently-regulated regime and worry about fines later when you hit it big (and the fines are often peanuts if you hit it big, imagine any late stage VC-backed company being slapped with a record $5.7m fine). Also, the age verification honor system is really pretty much a joke, it adds a little bit of annoyance and pretty much zero deterrence. Basically it’s about knowing to put up that page in the sign-up flow. So this “advantage” you’re talking about is fairly weak.

young_unixer 6y ago

> or TikTok succeeded because Chinese corporations are happy to discriminate against groups that western corporations would obviously protect out of the goodness of their hearts. No one believes western companies do it out of the goodness of their heart. They do it in part because of fear of backlash and in part because their CEO's (especially Twitter's, Youtube's and Reddit's) want to project a philantropist image without actually doing good things.

7786655 6y ago

I don't thing the things GP is talking about are indicators of a lesser society. I don't want to look at unattractive people, and there is nothing wrong with a social media service optimizing for that preference.

TheDong 6y ago
> there is nothing wrong with a social media service optimizing for that preference I think there is. The world has already reached a point where we live in information bubble, surrounded by things we want to see and that agree with us. People are depressed and feel inadequate. Formerly reputable news sources have realized that people don't want to be informed, they want to be outraged, or feel smug and correct, or see pictures of cats, and so real news is relegated to a lesser status. I would much rather websites present me with the truth, even if I don't like it as much, than live my life seeing only attractive people and reading only good news, but ending up woefully depressed and un-informed, with feelings of inadequacy and no understanding of what in the world is broken. I think news agencies have a responsibility to society to present news accurately, even if people find the news less pleasent to read than pictures of cats. Similarly, I think social media companies have a duty to present a semi-accurate view of society where possible. I would rather have a realistic view of what people look like than have a series of recommendation algorithms and feedback loops result in me seeing only "conventionally attractive" people. Of course, we've kinda already screwed ourselves here with hollywood/tv/movies. Perhaps it's too late to step back.
- 7786655 6y ago
  I never said that sites that present a semi-accurate view of society shouldn't exist. But I don't think any particular site has an obligation to be fair, as long as they aren't misrepresenting their content.
- shard 6y ago
  I think it's fine that different social media companies target different demographics. There's no need to apply a blanket rule to all companies as to what content should be promoted on its platform. For example, people go to Netflix, Twitch, Youtube, and Pornhub for different types of video content, and it wouldn't make sense to require that they all present the same semi-accurate view of society.

rdiddly 6y ago

I'm not the GP and therefore I'm not 100% sure the idea of Western social-justice mobs stifling innovation was intended as a compliment to the West. Anyway if anyone takes anything at all from this, it's the idea that the whole source of TikTok's success is in making culture (and therefore culture wars) irrelevant. Want to look at videos of disabled, unattractive, poor people all day? Have at. Not being flippant there, although now that I think about it, I bet there are vast differences between some people's publicly-espoused views and their own watching habits, were they ever revealed by TikTok's algorithm. Edit: Went off on all sorts of tangents, but yes I totally agree with your point. In Trump-era America even success & failure fall into the fact-free zone. We succeed: Of course! We're awesome! So proud! We fail: It wasn't fair! Everybody had it out for us! They succeed: Bunch of cheaters! We took the high road! They fail: Of course! We're just too awesome for 'em! Better luck next time!

malka 6y ago
What you describe is called fundamental attribution error.