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USA itself is already souring on NATO, no hackers needed. Many in the USA are tired of being criticized for being the "world police" yet the same critics also

by umvi 6y ago

USA itself is already souring on NATO, no hackers needed. Many in the USA are tired of being criticized for being the "world police" yet the same critics also scream when the USA starts pulling its military personnel out of their country (like Germany, most recently). I say Europe should use their own money to build their own Navy and Air Forces to protect their own interests and make their own trade and travel routes secure. Right now most EU countries are putting virtually none of their budget into military because everything is taken care of by the USA (and they can launder protection of interests through USA as well so USA takes all the heat if something goes wrong). Maybe people will complain less about the US military when they have to use their own tax dollars to secure their own borders, shipping and air routes, protect their own interests, etc.

foepys 6y ago
Most Germans would actually be happy if the US closed Ramstein. There was a large uproar in Germany when it came to light that the US is controlling their drones in the Middle East from there.
hnarn 6y ago
Unfortunately for you and the rest of Americans that feel this isolationist tendency, your country will be a part of the world whether you like it or not. A modern conflict that does not involve the US is not the same thing as a modern conflict that does not affect the US. Also, your opinion of Europe doesn’t seem founded in reality. Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies, and since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? And from who? The US needs the rest of the world as much as the rest of the world needs the US. You seem to be under the influence that the US is somehow being fleeced by the rest of the world while nobody but you (conveniently enough) contributes anything.
- umvi 6y ago
  Well, I'm sick and tired of being lambasted by the rest of the world 24/7 and would like to go back to pre-WW2 isolationism. EU can fend for itself. It doesn't need the US military. And the USA doesn't need NATO. Our military is bigger than the rest of NATO combined. > Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies Europe spends very little on their military compared to USA, China, Russia, etc. > and since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? US Navy protects merchant ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, fiber optic cables, and more from damage, sabotage, seizure, piracy, and more. If you don't recognize global trade and communications stability provided by US Navy, it's time to be reminded. It's time you protect your own interests with your own money. It's time you deal with Russia on your own without a US presence. > The US needs the rest of the world as much as the rest of the world needs the US You just said you don't need "American army resources" because the European nations have their own "standing armies". I whole-heartedly agree. Let Europe use its own military to protect its own interests. > You seem to be under the influence that the US is somehow being fleeced by the rest of the world It does seem like "biting the hand that feeds you". From my perspective EU is like "Cool, USA is taking care of tons of stuff we would normally have to pay for military-wise, so we can use that money instead to provide more social services to our citizens! Also the USA sucks [insert criticisms at every opportunity]"
  - lioeters 6y ago
    > would like to go back to pre-WW2 isolationism And we all know how that turned out..
- adventured 6y ago
  > since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? Since the 1940s. > And from who? Since WW2: Russia. The US military's position in Europe post WW2 enabled the destroyed, fragile nations of Europe to rebuild in the face of a Soviet onslaught to conquer as much territory in Europe as they could. Also: Serbia, right in Europe's backyard. See: the Kosovo War. [1] Also: Ukraine today. The sole reason Ukraine exists at all still, is that the US poses a severe threat to Russia were it to attempt a full annexation move using its military. They couldn't be certain how the US might react. Remove the US from that equation, and Russia knows the Western European powers will do nothing to stop it from taking Ukraine (other than protesting at the UN and throwing on some sanctions). Russia would immediately begin annexing territory in several prominent Eastern European nations, along with militarily challenging several others (eg Poland), were the US to pull its military resources and declare it had no interest in European affairs. The Western European powers would do nothing to stop that and could do nothing. France and Britain have nuclear weapons, which would only be used as a threat if their own territory was at risk (which it would not be; France isn't going to nuclear war with Russia over annexed Eastern European territory). Among Western European nations only Britain and France are capable of operating their militaries beyond their own borders properly, and in those cases they can barely do that. This is fundamentally why it was the US that had to intervene to stop the Muslim genocide in Kosovo, because the Western European powers can't project their militaries well and lack the capabilities the US has. [1] https://www.hrw.org/report/2001/10/27/under-orders/war-crimes-kosovo https://www.hrw.org/report/2001/10/27/under-orders/war-crime...
- sobellian 6y ago
  > since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? And from who? Are you serious? We spent half of the 20th century risking nuclear holocaust because we wanted to curb Soviet expansion into Europe. Many Americans still have family that were drafted and sent across the ocean to West Germany.

by umvi 6y ago

foepys 6y ago

Most Germans would actually be happy if the US closed Ramstein. There was a large uproar in Germany when it came to light that the US is controlling their drones in the Middle East from there.

hnarn 6y ago

Unfortunately for you and the rest of Americans that feel this isolationist tendency, your country will be a part of the world whether you like it or not. A modern conflict that does not involve the US is not the same thing as a modern conflict that does not affect the US. Also, your opinion of Europe doesn’t seem founded in reality. Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies, and since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? And from who? The US needs the rest of the world as much as the rest of the world needs the US. You seem to be under the influence that the US is somehow being fleeced by the rest of the world while nobody but you (conveniently enough) contributes anything.

umvi 6y ago
Well, I'm sick and tired of being lambasted by the rest of the world 24/7 and would like to go back to pre-WW2 isolationism. EU can fend for itself. It doesn't need the US military. And the USA doesn't need NATO. Our military is bigger than the rest of NATO combined. > Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies Europe spends very little on their military compared to USA, China, Russia, etc. > and since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? US Navy protects merchant ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, fiber optic cables, and more from damage, sabotage, seizure, piracy, and more. If you don't recognize global trade and communications stability provided by US Navy, it's time to be reminded. It's time you protect your own interests with your own money. It's time you deal with Russia on your own without a US presence. > The US needs the rest of the world as much as the rest of the world needs the US You just said you don't need "American army resources" because the European nations have their own "standing armies". I whole-heartedly agree. Let Europe use its own military to protect its own interests. > You seem to be under the influence that the US is somehow being fleeced by the rest of the world It does seem like "biting the hand that feeds you". From my perspective EU is like "Cool, USA is taking care of tons of stuff we would normally have to pay for military-wise, so we can use that money instead to provide more social services to our citizens! Also the USA sucks [insert criticisms at every opportunity]"
- lioeters 6y ago
  > would like to go back to pre-WW2 isolationism And we all know how that turned out..
adventured 6y ago
> since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? Since the 1940s. > And from who? Since WW2: Russia. The US military's position in Europe post WW2 enabled the destroyed, fragile nations of Europe to rebuild in the face of a Soviet onslaught to conquer as much territory in Europe as they could. Also: Serbia, right in Europe's backyard. See: the Kosovo War. [1] Also: Ukraine today. The sole reason Ukraine exists at all still, is that the US poses a severe threat to Russia were it to attempt a full annexation move using its military. They couldn't be certain how the US might react. Remove the US from that equation, and Russia knows the Western European powers will do nothing to stop it from taking Ukraine (other than protesting at the UN and throwing on some sanctions). Russia would immediately begin annexing territory in several prominent Eastern European nations, along with militarily challenging several others (eg Poland), were the US to pull its military resources and declare it had no interest in European affairs. The Western European powers would do nothing to stop that and could do nothing. France and Britain have nuclear weapons, which would only be used as a threat if their own territory was at risk (which it would not be; France isn't going to nuclear war with Russia over annexed Eastern European territory). Among Western European nations only Britain and France are capable of operating their militaries beyond their own borders properly, and in those cases they can barely do that. This is fundamentally why it was the US that had to intervene to stop the Muslim genocide in Kosovo, because the Western European powers can't project their militaries well and lack the capabilities the US has. [1] https://www.hrw.org/report/2001/10/27/under-orders/war-crimes-kosovo https://www.hrw.org/report/2001/10/27/under-orders/war-crime...
sobellian 6y ago
> since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? And from who? Are you serious? We spent half of the 20th century risking nuclear holocaust because we wanted to curb Soviet expansion into Europe. Many Americans still have family that were drafted and sent across the ocean to West Germany.