13 ms·

TikTok's new CEO says company will reveal how its algorithms work

94 points by Firebrand 6y ago

reallymental 6y ago
Prediction: Color me pessimistic, but it's obviously not going to be the entire picture. This explanation is going to live that sort of vague truth/lie land that the majority of news today exists. It will instill confidence amongst less tech-savvy people, by "putting it out there" that TikTok is actually magnanimous in releasing it's secret sauce. If by some magic they do release the real thing, it will be gamed so quickly that it will be rendered moot. If I were them, I would do the second. That way you'll release the truth (at that time) and reap the benefits of good PR. edit: grammar.
- _fat_santa 6y ago
  Like you I doubt they will release the entire thing. I think this is more of a marketing stunt than an actual drive for more trust. Less tech savvy users will see this as "transparency" and that will drive more trust.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  The thing is, once tiktok has captured enough of the userbase, there may be no necessity of protecting the secret sauce. If coke release their formula, coke would still remain dominant even if exact duplicates were pushed by startup cola factories.
noevil123 6y ago
TikTok = CCP
- dimitrios1 6y ago
  There's certainly enough evidence to suggest this is now true.
- mikechen233 6y ago
  Tiktok CEO, management and employees are all Americans. Their office is in California. There are now a few hundreds American employees at tiktok. If Chinese government control them or forcing them to hand over American data, they would have came out by then. You think that no one would have said anything? No one in China office can touch tiktok's code and user data. How is that ccp or government controlled?
  - verdverm 6y ago
    Citations?
    - dumb1224 6y ago
      Genuinely interested to know some names thrown in the public too.
  - throwaway45349 6y ago
    There are plenty of "American" university professors who were in CCP pockets too.
  - nomel 6y ago
    > forcing them to hand over American data, they would have came out by then. > No one in China office can touch tiktok's code and user data. Is this insider information, or guesses?
_fat_santa 6y ago
Sounds like a last ditch effort to prevent the app from getting banned in several countries. I have two takes, one it's very admirable for a company to release its algorithms and drive more transparency and I think it will help the public trust ByteDance more. The other take is much more cynical. When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? I'm sure researchers will have to formally verify it somehow (not an expert here so I'm speculating). Also this does nothing to actually prevent them from further abusing user data. Seems like this release is just a red herring that diverts attention from the other shady stuff they are doing.
- onetimemanytime 6y ago
  >>When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? Bingo. Unless you have a NSA squad checking every code change they make. Don't use them and be done.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- jka 6y ago
  The truth may be some combination of the two - it's certainly arguable that more transparent social network algorithms could be in everyone's interests; it's also true that TikTok would like to find ways to compete with Facebook, and increasing access to their source code may be part of their approach. Attempting to take a global view, the ability for users themselves to scrutinize source code could be particularly important if & when subsets of them encounter bugs or get stuck in software that increasingly mediates conversations and real-world interactions. In any case, as you say, source code is only part of the equation when we're determining how trustworthy the companies we deal with are. As it happens, Facebook mentioned some of their contributions to the open source community as part of their testimony[1] to the Antitrust committee hearing today: "We actively contribute to the open-source community. ... I believe sharing our intellectual property this way helps the entire ecosystem move forward and develop new products." The TikTok Transparency Center[2] announced by the CEO does not yet include access to source code, as far as I can tell, although it does mention it. [1] - https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20200729/110883/HHRG-116-JU05-Wstate-ZuckerbergM-20200729.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20200729/110883/HHRG... [2] - https://www.tiktok.com/transparency https://www.tiktok.com/transparency
at-fates-hands 6y ago
This instantly reminded me of the classic magician misdirection engine. Get people looking at the fake algo's while the real damaging stuff stays hidden from view.
- pixxel 6y ago
  CEOs are out in force today.
oldgun 6y ago
This could be the right step towards algorithm transparency. It is critical in the information age we're in, while Facebook is promoting alt-right conspiracies, and YouTube is feeding flat-earthers. Yes. There are more technical issues to resolve. (e.g., How do we verify the algorithm they present is the actual algorithm they use?) Perhaps third party audit, APIs for third parties to test the algorithm? We need constructive criticism than cynicism.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  I see another problem, and that is the one where they dump a model on the internet somewhere and whenever something goes wrong shrug their shoulders and say "well, that is what the model gave us…we don't know why; you can see for yourself how we didn't bias anything".
justinzollars 6y ago
If TikTok == "CCP" && Twitter == "Democratic Party USA" { return "we have bigger problems than just TikTok" }
- throwaway45349 6y ago
  Eh... strikes me more as the Democrats shifted the Overton window far left. Twitter's only bias is in favor of dollars.
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    I don't agree Jack Dorsey thinks this way. I believe Facebook is bias towards dollars, Jack strikes me as an ideologue and someone that really believes in his personal impact
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Twitter == "Democratic Party USA" You mean to argue Twitter that revised it's rules specifically to justify not taking action for Donald Trump’s flagrant, serial violations of the then-current rules is an organ of the Democratic Party? Yeah, no. An opportunist that sticks it's thumb in the wind and leans where the political momentum appears to be at the moment while deliberately maximizing engagement by courting and accelerating controversy, sure. A party organ of the Democratic Party? Not even close.
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    I was an elected 2008 Hillary Clinton DNC delegate and have ran numerous campaigns for the Democrats. I also work in tech. Twitter supports Democrats. This is a legitimate comparison. If you study the trending tweets, those that tend to easily trend favor Democrat issues, ideas and movements. Comments on object news articles promote Democratic comments over conservative commenters. Looking deeper, if you study campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter, its at North Korean levels (95% Democratic Party vs 5% All others) of popular support. How is this level of political support different than TikTok's support for the CCP? How are the design patterns different?
afrojack123 6y ago
Hacker News is for technical people. They know this is bullshit. Its not their algo that means anything. Its the data collection and sending it to China/Singapore that is the problem.
- isatty 6y ago
  What role does Singapore play in this? Genuinely curious and I do not have nor recommend the app to anyone.
  - eunos 6y ago
    One of the backend data center is Alibaba cloud on Singapore.
  - bduerst 6y ago
    - Bytedance's global TikTok app is based out of datacenters in Singapore. - Bytedance's Chinese Toutiao app is based out of datacenters in China. Bytedance itself is a Cayman company, so in regards to the Chinese National Intelligence law, TikTok technically isn't required to share data with China nor am I aware of any evidence that they actually do (despite the memes).
    - sukilot 6y ago
      Your claim is that a Chinese company can simply opt out of Chinese law by moving their computing outside of China?
      - bduerst 6y ago
        >Bytedance itself is a Cayman company
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - hkmaxpro 6y ago
      > TikTok technically isn't required to share data with China That can change in a few months. China is drafting Data Security Law whose “broad scope and extraterritorial reach pose particular risks for foreign companies as well as media organizations and their personnel. Most importantly, the Draft Law grants sweeping power in the name of national security to relevant Chinese government officials to access the data itself and regulate (including the powers to prosecute and investigate) data controllers regardless of whether they are located inside or outside China.” [0] China also just implemented National Security Law in Hong Kong that is also extraterritorial and requires hosting service to provide information to China, regardless of where they are located [1]. [0] https://www.wilmerhale.com/en/insights/client-alerts/20200710-china-publishes-draft-data-security-law https://www.wilmerhale.com/en/insights/client-alerts/2020071... [1] https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592 https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592
cfors 6y ago
I wonder what revealing how the algorithm works will impact content creators? We have entire industries built on poking at Google Search and Instagram to build exposure. My prediction is that this levels the playing field, but doesn't solve the problem of people gaming algorithms to do what they want. The less shrouded the algorithm, the less snake oil that can be sold which is probably for the best.
swagonomixxx 6y ago
Inb4 the press release says "Machine learning". Honestly, do we really need to consider TikTok's rebuttals about them basically being spyware? Sure, they spy for the CCP, but Facebook spies for the highest bidder. Not sure what's worse at this point to be honest. And I'm not leaving Facebook, Google, Instagram, or these other services out of this either. You can tout "AI" and "Machine Learning" all you want, "We want to give you the best content", etc., it's all BS. Stop it. Unfortunately, they won't stop it, because most folks simply _do_ _not_ _care_ about TikTok being spyware, including _most_ if not _all_ the people that I know (and yes, including developers, scientists, semi-high-ranking government employees, etc.)
zozin 6y ago
We are at war and data collection and social media influence serves as the ammunition and propaganda. If Bytedance is a truly innocent third party, then they completely misread the situation when they spent billions of dollars to expand outside of China and this amounts to a business failing. The more likely situation is that the CCP is intimately involved in Bytedance's data collection, what becomes trending, what videos get promoted, etc. They crossed the proverbial line and now they are punished for it a la ZTE, Huawei, etc. You can say goodbye to any Chinese, Russian, etc. app ever taking off in the "West" in the future. Scrutiny will be ever more stringent as the war continues.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  The West isn't uniform on this at all. Eastern Europe and up to Greece and Italy have taken a fairly conciliatory stance on China, in particular the latter which joined OBOR. Western Europe is more mixed but still I very much doubt you'll see a TikTok ban in Germany (and neither a Huawei one), and even in the UK I'm not sure if we'll see a software ban. I think it's more likely we'll see a differentiated response. Strongest in the US and Australia maybe Japan (although that's an unclear case as well), and mixed to not at all in Europe. On the global stage in general the situation is very different and for that reason alone China's global expansion has made sense. The few billion dollars they've invested in the US have given them extremely valuable knowledge.
  - eunos 6y ago
    > maybe Japan I suspect Japan's stance (and Australia) is more about U.S. alignment. Being in the pacific the situation is more precarious.
seebetter 6y ago
I've met Kevin Mayer and have two friends (one a roommate) who worked closely with him. There are some people who operate in life like an automaton or an NPC. They're completely ambivalent to principles so everything is relative. It's easy to justify leaving Disney as their COO to go work for a Chinese controlled company -- all you have to do is -want- to rationalize it.
dcewcrrec 6y ago
I have a nuclear take, as someone who still uses TikTok: Your data and life are not special in any way. The government will never be interested in finding out about you, and if they really wanted to they could do it with ease, and definitely don't need an app to do it. This is serious in terms of larger scale surveillance implications, but then that's not really a reason to stop using TikTok for individual purposes is it? We've seen people become presidents even after their entire dirty past was revealed. I literally do not care if a random Chinese employee knows everything about my life. You're welcome to feel differently, I never force these opinions on other people. Yet everyone seems to want to tell me I'm crazy. Yeah, I'm the crazy one, not the guy who thinks the government is interested in him as an individual rather than a collective for policing and advertising purposes, which by the way has already been going on for decades.
- dandelany 6y ago
  "I personally have nothing to hide so I don't have a problem with intrusive surveillance" is not a nuclear or even hot take, in fact it's about the lukewarmest take I can think of.
  - dcewcrrec 6y ago
    You missed all the nuance. I have heard that argument thousands of times and i disagree with it. What I'm saying here is that long term, wider surveillance implications are the threat and they're happening in all countries. A random Chinese data mining app is irrelevant and individuals are still safe to use it. Probably only matters to people here because of the country of origin, and not the broader implications, otherwise we'd have this discussion about Linkedin too.
  - filoleg 6y ago
    given how downvoted the parent comment got after just a few minutes of being in the positive, I would definitely count it as a pretty hot take.
- georgeplusplus 6y ago
  For me it’s less about privacy concerns and more about not wanting to support an oppressive regime. Whether that be through financial boycotts or in the case of TikTok, through my data, which will help them perfect their products and give them a competitive edge which ultimately gives them more leverage to enact more oppressive and anti-democratic campaigns.
nickgrosvenor 6y ago
All the TikTok people are gonna move to Triller
ravenstine 6y ago
This seems like a smokescreen for the actual problem, which isn't the algorithms(I don't think anyone has said the algorithms are the problem), but the fact that their app is effectively spyware.
- snemvalts 6y ago
  Literally in the first paragraph > He says TikTok will also reveal its data flows to regulators, and is calling on its rivals to do the same
  - ravenstine 6y ago
    It remains to be seen what "data flows" actually means. That term is used again in the article but it doesn't sound like it explicitly refers to how TikTok acts like a surveillence tool. Maybe it will, but this is political theater. If they were run by people who actually cared, they wouldn't have gotten to this point in the first place. > TikTok will launch a Transparency and Accountability Center in Los Angeles for moderation and data practices that will house all of its data flows and code moving forward. Sounds pretty ambiguous. Like I said, remains to be seen. These aren't friendly people. Their app not only harvests an assload of your data but has also been shown to be full of vulnerabilities. I'm not just going to take their word for it that making everything "open" is going to show that they've made things right. If I ran TikTok, I'd pull off a stunt like this to fool technically illiterate politicians to get them off my back.
    - badRNG 6y ago
      It's quite possible TikTok will go down the path of promising the moon regarding self-regulation and accountability just until the immediate threat from regulators subsides. This appears to be a trend among companies to stave off regulation while in the public consciousness, then remaining largely unaccountable to these toothless accountability committees when the news cycle inevitably moves on.
- ictebres 6y ago
  Can someone please share a source on how it is more of a spyware than facebook, instagram, etc. Edit: grammar
Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
Will he also accept that TikTok instructed moderators to "suppress posts created by users deemed too ugly, poor, or disabled for the platform"[1]? There are already enough forces at play which feeds on inequality, hate, scarcity etc. making life miserable for the majority of human population, forces which we may have already lost the battle with; let's not give in to new ones just for the sake of entertainment. [1]https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...
siculars 6y ago
Will they tell us how they share data with the CCP?
m3kw9 6y ago
Now can we trust what the diagrams say?
m3kw9 6y ago
To me, drawing a diagram saying how it works isn’t really gonna do it. How can anyone know you are telling the truth?
- m3kw9 6y ago
  And if they are today, who knows what code changes are going in the pull request for the next day
tazedsoul 6y ago
Revealing how an algorithm works only provides a false sense of understanding/security. At any time, the algorithm can be modified. Further, mechanisms will be needed to ensure that the published algorithms are actually the deployed algorithms. There is such a thing as lying and deception. It’s naive to believe that billion dollar companies are honest.
- Avicebron 6y ago
  I doubt people believe. It just shows the power imbalance, they lie to the face and no one can do anything about it.
filleduchaos 6y ago
As something of an outsider (being from West Africa), the extent of the panic over TikTok is more than a little amusing to me. I understand how it might be different for an American citizen, but to me much of it frankly sounds like one third party trying to paint another as the devil incarnate over much the same practices. Plus unlike many American data farms masquerading as services, TikTok does actually provide me with a measurably positive experience as a content consumer; a feed that contains fresh, relatively non-gamified content that I actually want to see. I just treat the platform like I treat the likes of Facebook. Accessed only through the web in a sandbox, etc.
- alfalfasprout 6y ago
  The american government isn't using the data to openly oppress entire groups of people though.
  - Allower 6y ago
    Does it really matter that its not "openly" doing so? Frankly that probably would make it worse objectively speaking..
  - filleduchaos 6y ago
    Didn't the US have that entire thing with PRISM/the NSA? Ah, I forget, it's the US so its own surveillance programs are obviously above board and only used for good. The leader of the free world or some such.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      >> The american government isn't using the data to openly oppress entire groups of people though. > Didn't the US have that entire thing with PRISM/the NSA? You can possess a gun, you can use that gun to kill someone in self defense, or you can use the gun to kill some innocent person. All those things are very different in important ways, even though they involve guns. It's true that US has surveillance and propaganda capabilities, but just noting that doesn't show equivalence to China in the areas that really matter.
tqi 6y ago
Assuming their recommendation system is structured in the same manner as the feed ranking system at FB [1], I'm assuming this means they will be publishing their value models (easily interpretable by anyone), and not their probability models (black boxes, even to them). In other words, we'd be able to see that they value P(click) 2.5 times more than P(comment), but won't tell you how they actually predict clicks or comments. This feels pretty meaningless to me, since knowing that they are ranking something highly because you are likely to click on it seems fine until you find out that the reason you are likely to click on it is that it is a viral hoax. [1] https://blogs.commons.georgetown.edu/cctp-607-spring2019/2019/05/05/deblackbox-facebook-news-feed-algorithm-as-a-system-for-attention-manipulation/ https://blogs.commons.georgetown.edu/cctp-607-spring2019/201...
- ngcc_hk 6y ago
  Are we worry about fab or google because of their ranking system? What tik tok can do is they can change the flip to send info over to their choices. That is the same as 5G. It is not what it does today but it can do on the next software or firmware upgrade will. The regime is so different it is a war our there already. Just you cannot see gunshot in software. But you can see casualties at least like HONG kong.
djflexure 6y ago
Can anyone enlighten me the main difference between surveillance from China vs. the NSA exposed by Snowden? I was under the impression that both countries (if not most countries) collect data one way or another. It's just that China does it more explicitly.
musicale 6y ago
Can we trust TikTok to explain in detail how the surveillance part works? Or to remove it entirely?
justinzollars 6y ago
I was an elected 2008 Hillary Clinton DNC delegate and have ran numerous campaigns for the Democrats. I also work in tech. Twitter supports Democrats. If you study the trending tweets, those that tend to easily trend favor Democrat issues, ideas and movements. Comments on object news articles promote Democratic comments over conservative commenters. Looking deeper, if you study campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter, its at North Korean levels (95% Democratic Party vs 5% All others) of popular support. How is this level of political support different than TikTok's support for the CCP? How are the design patterns and motivations of TikTok worse than twitter?
- psyklic 6y ago
  Couldn't the userbase be more to blame than Twitter? Pew Research says that "Twitter users [are] more likely to be Democrats" [1]. Also, 80% of all Tweets mentioning national politics were apparently made by users who "strongly disapprove" of Trump [2]. That provides a potential explanation for why comments and trending tweets may "favor Democrat issues" -- supposing that even is the case. I can't seem to find any reputable articles or evidence regarding the "trending tweets" political breakdown and "campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter" -- could we be pointed to some sources? [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-twitter-users/ https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-tw... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/10/23/national-politics-on-twitter-small-share-of-u-s-adults-produce-majority-of-tweets/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/10/23/national-pol...
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    Campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter: [1] https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-contributions/?contributor_employer=twitter&two_year_transaction_period=2020&min_date=01%2F01%2F2019&max_date=12%2F31%2F2020 https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-contributions/?...
    - psyklic 6y ago
      Nice find! Based on this data, it does seem that contributions from Twitter employees are overwhelmingly to Democratic causes.
danielscrubs 6y ago
Maybe Google can learn a thing or two about how to do a recommendation engine that actually works for YouTube.

94 points by Firebrand 6y ago

Prediction: Color me pessimistic, but it's obviously not going to be the entire picture. This explanation is going to live that sort of vague truth/lie land that the majority of news today exists. It will instill confidence amongst less tech-savvy people, by "putting it out there" that TikTok is actually magnanimous in releasing it's secret sauce. If by some magic they do release the real thing, it will be gamed so quickly that it will be rendered moot. If I were them, I would do the second. That way you'll release the truth (at that time) and reap the benefits of good PR. edit: grammar.

_fat_santa 6y ago
Like you I doubt they will release the entire thing. I think this is more of a marketing stunt than an actual drive for more trust. Less tech savvy users will see this as "transparency" and that will drive more trust.
oh_sigh 6y ago
The thing is, once tiktok has captured enough of the userbase, there may be no necessity of protecting the secret sauce. If coke release their formula, coke would still remain dominant even if exact duplicates were pushed by startup cola factories.

noevil123 6y ago

TikTok = CCP

dimitrios1 6y ago
There's certainly enough evidence to suggest this is now true.
mikechen233 6y ago
Tiktok CEO, management and employees are all Americans. Their office is in California. There are now a few hundreds American employees at tiktok. If Chinese government control them or forcing them to hand over American data, they would have came out by then. You think that no one would have said anything? No one in China office can touch tiktok's code and user data. How is that ccp or government controlled?
- verdverm 6y ago
  Citations?
  - dumb1224 6y ago
    Genuinely interested to know some names thrown in the public too.
- throwaway45349 6y ago
  There are plenty of "American" university professors who were in CCP pockets too.
- nomel 6y ago
  > forcing them to hand over American data, they would have came out by then. > No one in China office can touch tiktok's code and user data. Is this insider information, or guesses?

_fat_santa 6y ago

Sounds like a last ditch effort to prevent the app from getting banned in several countries. I have two takes, one it's very admirable for a company to release its algorithms and drive more transparency and I think it will help the public trust ByteDance more. The other take is much more cynical. When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? I'm sure researchers will have to formally verify it somehow (not an expert here so I'm speculating). Also this does nothing to actually prevent them from further abusing user data. Seems like this release is just a red herring that diverts attention from the other shady stuff they are doing.

onetimemanytime 6y ago
>>When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? Bingo. Unless you have a NSA squad checking every code change they make. Don't use them and be done.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jka 6y ago
The truth may be some combination of the two - it's certainly arguable that more transparent social network algorithms could be in everyone's interests; it's also true that TikTok would like to find ways to compete with Facebook, and increasing access to their source code may be part of their approach. Attempting to take a global view, the ability for users themselves to scrutinize source code could be particularly important if & when subsets of them encounter bugs or get stuck in software that increasingly mediates conversations and real-world interactions. In any case, as you say, source code is only part of the equation when we're determining how trustworthy the companies we deal with are. As it happens, Facebook mentioned some of their contributions to the open source community as part of their testimony[1] to the Antitrust committee hearing today: "We actively contribute to the open-source community. ... I believe sharing our intellectual property this way helps the entire ecosystem move forward and develop new products." The TikTok Transparency Center[2] announced by the CEO does not yet include access to source code, as far as I can tell, although it does mention it. [1] - https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20200729/110883/HHRG-116-JU05-Wstate-ZuckerbergM-20200729.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20200729/110883/HHRG... [2] - https://www.tiktok.com/transparency https://www.tiktok.com/transparency

at-fates-hands 6y ago

This instantly reminded me of the classic magician misdirection engine. Get people looking at the fake algo's while the real damaging stuff stays hidden from view.

pixxel 6y ago
CEOs are out in force today.

oldgun 6y ago

This could be the right step towards algorithm transparency. It is critical in the information age we're in, while Facebook is promoting alt-right conspiracies, and YouTube is feeding flat-earthers. Yes. There are more technical issues to resolve. (e.g., How do we verify the algorithm they present is the actual algorithm they use?) Perhaps third party audit, APIs for third parties to test the algorithm? We need constructive criticism than cynicism.

saagarjha 6y ago
I see another problem, and that is the one where they dump a model on the internet somewhere and whenever something goes wrong shrug their shoulders and say "well, that is what the model gave us…we don't know why; you can see for yourself how we didn't bias anything".

justinzollars 6y ago

If TikTok == "CCP" && Twitter == "Democratic Party USA" { return "we have bigger problems than just TikTok" }

throwaway45349 6y ago
Eh... strikes me more as the Democrats shifted the Overton window far left. Twitter's only bias is in favor of dollars.
- justinzollars 6y ago
  I don't agree Jack Dorsey thinks this way. I believe Facebook is bias towards dollars, Jack strikes me as an ideologue and someone that really believes in his personal impact
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Twitter == "Democratic Party USA" You mean to argue Twitter that revised it's rules specifically to justify not taking action for Donald Trump’s flagrant, serial violations of the then-current rules is an organ of the Democratic Party? Yeah, no. An opportunist that sticks it's thumb in the wind and leans where the political momentum appears to be at the moment while deliberately maximizing engagement by courting and accelerating controversy, sure. A party organ of the Democratic Party? Not even close.
- justinzollars 6y ago
  I was an elected 2008 Hillary Clinton DNC delegate and have ran numerous campaigns for the Democrats. I also work in tech. Twitter supports Democrats. This is a legitimate comparison. If you study the trending tweets, those that tend to easily trend favor Democrat issues, ideas and movements. Comments on object news articles promote Democratic comments over conservative commenters. Looking deeper, if you study campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter, its at North Korean levels (95% Democratic Party vs 5% All others) of popular support. How is this level of political support different than TikTok's support for the CCP? How are the design patterns different?

afrojack123 6y ago

Hacker News is for technical people. They know this is bullshit. Its not their algo that means anything. Its the data collection and sending it to China/Singapore that is the problem.

isatty 6y ago
What role does Singapore play in this? Genuinely curious and I do not have nor recommend the app to anyone.
- eunos 6y ago
  One of the backend data center is Alibaba cloud on Singapore.
- bduerst 6y ago
  - Bytedance's global TikTok app is based out of datacenters in Singapore. - Bytedance's Chinese Toutiao app is based out of datacenters in China. Bytedance itself is a Cayman company, so in regards to the Chinese National Intelligence law, TikTok technically isn't required to share data with China nor am I aware of any evidence that they actually do (despite the memes).
  - sukilot 6y ago
    Your claim is that a Chinese company can simply opt out of Chinese law by moving their computing outside of China?
    - bduerst 6y ago
      >Bytedance itself is a Cayman company
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - hkmaxpro 6y ago
    > TikTok technically isn't required to share data with China That can change in a few months. China is drafting Data Security Law whose “broad scope and extraterritorial reach pose particular risks for foreign companies as well as media organizations and their personnel. Most importantly, the Draft Law grants sweeping power in the name of national security to relevant Chinese government officials to access the data itself and regulate (including the powers to prosecute and investigate) data controllers regardless of whether they are located inside or outside China.” [0] China also just implemented National Security Law in Hong Kong that is also extraterritorial and requires hosting service to provide information to China, regardless of where they are located [1]. [0] https://www.wilmerhale.com/en/insights/client-alerts/20200710-china-publishes-draft-data-security-law https://www.wilmerhale.com/en/insights/client-alerts/2020071... [1] https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592 https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592

cfors 6y ago

I wonder what revealing how the algorithm works will impact content creators? We have entire industries built on poking at Google Search and Instagram to build exposure. My prediction is that this levels the playing field, but doesn't solve the problem of people gaming algorithms to do what they want. The less shrouded the algorithm, the less snake oil that can be sold which is probably for the best.

swagonomixxx 6y ago

Inb4 the press release says "Machine learning". Honestly, do we really need to consider TikTok's rebuttals about them basically being spyware? Sure, they spy for the CCP, but Facebook spies for the highest bidder. Not sure what's worse at this point to be honest. And I'm not leaving Facebook, Google, Instagram, or these other services out of this either. You can tout "AI" and "Machine Learning" all you want, "We want to give you the best content", etc., it's all BS. Stop it. Unfortunately, they won't stop it, because most folks simply _do_ _not_ _care_ about TikTok being spyware, including _most_ if not _all_ the people that I know (and yes, including developers, scientists, semi-high-ranking government employees, etc.)

zozin 6y ago

We are at war and data collection and social media influence serves as the ammunition and propaganda. If Bytedance is a truly innocent third party, then they completely misread the situation when they spent billions of dollars to expand outside of China and this amounts to a business failing. The more likely situation is that the CCP is intimately involved in Bytedance's data collection, what becomes trending, what videos get promoted, etc. They crossed the proverbial line and now they are punished for it a la ZTE, Huawei, etc. You can say goodbye to any Chinese, Russian, etc. app ever taking off in the "West" in the future. Scrutiny will be ever more stringent as the war continues.

Barrin92 6y ago
The West isn't uniform on this at all. Eastern Europe and up to Greece and Italy have taken a fairly conciliatory stance on China, in particular the latter which joined OBOR. Western Europe is more mixed but still I very much doubt you'll see a TikTok ban in Germany (and neither a Huawei one), and even in the UK I'm not sure if we'll see a software ban. I think it's more likely we'll see a differentiated response. Strongest in the US and Australia maybe Japan (although that's an unclear case as well), and mixed to not at all in Europe. On the global stage in general the situation is very different and for that reason alone China's global expansion has made sense. The few billion dollars they've invested in the US have given them extremely valuable knowledge.
- eunos 6y ago
  > maybe Japan I suspect Japan's stance (and Australia) is more about U.S. alignment. Being in the pacific the situation is more precarious.

seebetter 6y ago

I've met Kevin Mayer and have two friends (one a roommate) who worked closely with him. There are some people who operate in life like an automaton or an NPC. They're completely ambivalent to principles so everything is relative. It's easy to justify leaving Disney as their COO to go work for a Chinese controlled company -- all you have to do is -want- to rationalize it.

dcewcrrec 6y ago

I have a nuclear take, as someone who still uses TikTok: Your data and life are not special in any way. The government will never be interested in finding out about you, and if they really wanted to they could do it with ease, and definitely don't need an app to do it. This is serious in terms of larger scale surveillance implications, but then that's not really a reason to stop using TikTok for individual purposes is it? We've seen people become presidents even after their entire dirty past was revealed. I literally do not care if a random Chinese employee knows everything about my life. You're welcome to feel differently, I never force these opinions on other people. Yet everyone seems to want to tell me I'm crazy. Yeah, I'm the crazy one, not the guy who thinks the government is interested in him as an individual rather than a collective for policing and advertising purposes, which by the way has already been going on for decades.

dandelany 6y ago
"I personally have nothing to hide so I don't have a problem with intrusive surveillance" is not a nuclear or even hot take, in fact it's about the lukewarmest take I can think of.
- dcewcrrec 6y ago
  You missed all the nuance. I have heard that argument thousands of times and i disagree with it. What I'm saying here is that long term, wider surveillance implications are the threat and they're happening in all countries. A random Chinese data mining app is irrelevant and individuals are still safe to use it. Probably only matters to people here because of the country of origin, and not the broader implications, otherwise we'd have this discussion about Linkedin too.
- filoleg 6y ago
  given how downvoted the parent comment got after just a few minutes of being in the positive, I would definitely count it as a pretty hot take.
georgeplusplus 6y ago
For me it’s less about privacy concerns and more about not wanting to support an oppressive regime. Whether that be through financial boycotts or in the case of TikTok, through my data, which will help them perfect their products and give them a competitive edge which ultimately gives them more leverage to enact more oppressive and anti-democratic campaigns.

nickgrosvenor 6y ago

All the TikTok people are gonna move to Triller

ravenstine 6y ago

This seems like a smokescreen for the actual problem, which isn't the algorithms(I don't think anyone has said the algorithms are the problem), but the fact that their app is effectively spyware.

snemvalts 6y ago
Literally in the first paragraph > He says TikTok will also reveal its data flows to regulators, and is calling on its rivals to do the same
- ravenstine 6y ago
  It remains to be seen what "data flows" actually means. That term is used again in the article but it doesn't sound like it explicitly refers to how TikTok acts like a surveillence tool. Maybe it will, but this is political theater. If they were run by people who actually cared, they wouldn't have gotten to this point in the first place. > TikTok will launch a Transparency and Accountability Center in Los Angeles for moderation and data practices that will house all of its data flows and code moving forward. Sounds pretty ambiguous. Like I said, remains to be seen. These aren't friendly people. Their app not only harvests an assload of your data but has also been shown to be full of vulnerabilities. I'm not just going to take their word for it that making everything "open" is going to show that they've made things right. If I ran TikTok, I'd pull off a stunt like this to fool technically illiterate politicians to get them off my back.
  - badRNG 6y ago
    It's quite possible TikTok will go down the path of promising the moon regarding self-regulation and accountability just until the immediate threat from regulators subsides. This appears to be a trend among companies to stave off regulation while in the public consciousness, then remaining largely unaccountable to these toothless accountability committees when the news cycle inevitably moves on.
ictebres 6y ago
Can someone please share a source on how it is more of a spyware than facebook, instagram, etc. Edit: grammar

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago

Will he also accept that TikTok instructed moderators to "suppress posts created by users deemed too ugly, poor, or disabled for the platform"[1]? There are already enough forces at play which feeds on inequality, hate, scarcity etc. making life miserable for the majority of human population, forces which we may have already lost the battle with; let's not give in to new ones just for the sake of entertainment. [1]https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...

siculars 6y ago

Will they tell us how they share data with the CCP?

m3kw9 6y ago

Now can we trust what the diagrams say?

m3kw9 6y ago

To me, drawing a diagram saying how it works isn’t really gonna do it. How can anyone know you are telling the truth?

m3kw9 6y ago
And if they are today, who knows what code changes are going in the pull request for the next day

tazedsoul 6y ago

Revealing how an algorithm works only provides a false sense of understanding/security. At any time, the algorithm can be modified. Further, mechanisms will be needed to ensure that the published algorithms are actually the deployed algorithms. There is such a thing as lying and deception. It’s naive to believe that billion dollar companies are honest.

Avicebron 6y ago
I doubt people believe. It just shows the power imbalance, they lie to the face and no one can do anything about it.

filleduchaos 6y ago

As something of an outsider (being from West Africa), the extent of the panic over TikTok is more than a little amusing to me. I understand how it might be different for an American citizen, but to me much of it frankly sounds like one third party trying to paint another as the devil incarnate over much the same practices. Plus unlike many American data farms masquerading as services, TikTok does actually provide me with a measurably positive experience as a content consumer; a feed that contains fresh, relatively non-gamified content that I actually want to see. I just treat the platform like I treat the likes of Facebook. Accessed only through the web in a sandbox, etc.

alfalfasprout 6y ago
The american government isn't using the data to openly oppress entire groups of people though.
- Allower 6y ago
  Does it really matter that its not "openly" doing so? Frankly that probably would make it worse objectively speaking..
- filleduchaos 6y ago
  Didn't the US have that entire thing with PRISM/the NSA? Ah, I forget, it's the US so its own surveillance programs are obviously above board and only used for good. The leader of the free world or some such.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    >> The american government isn't using the data to openly oppress entire groups of people though. > Didn't the US have that entire thing with PRISM/the NSA? You can possess a gun, you can use that gun to kill someone in self defense, or you can use the gun to kill some innocent person. All those things are very different in important ways, even though they involve guns. It's true that US has surveillance and propaganda capabilities, but just noting that doesn't show equivalence to China in the areas that really matter.

tqi 6y ago

Assuming their recommendation system is structured in the same manner as the feed ranking system at FB [1], I'm assuming this means they will be publishing their value models (easily interpretable by anyone), and not their probability models (black boxes, even to them). In other words, we'd be able to see that they value P(click) 2.5 times more than P(comment), but won't tell you how they actually predict clicks or comments. This feels pretty meaningless to me, since knowing that they are ranking something highly because you are likely to click on it seems fine until you find out that the reason you are likely to click on it is that it is a viral hoax. [1] https://blogs.commons.georgetown.edu/cctp-607-spring2019/2019/05/05/deblackbox-facebook-news-feed-algorithm-as-a-system-for-attention-manipulation/ https://blogs.commons.georgetown.edu/cctp-607-spring2019/201...

ngcc_hk 6y ago
Are we worry about fab or google because of their ranking system? What tik tok can do is they can change the flip to send info over to their choices. That is the same as 5G. It is not what it does today but it can do on the next software or firmware upgrade will. The regime is so different it is a war our there already. Just you cannot see gunshot in software. But you can see casualties at least like HONG kong.

djflexure 6y ago

Can anyone enlighten me the main difference between surveillance from China vs. the NSA exposed by Snowden? I was under the impression that both countries (if not most countries) collect data one way or another. It's just that China does it more explicitly.

musicale 6y ago

Can we trust TikTok to explain in detail how the surveillance part works? Or to remove it entirely?

justinzollars 6y ago

I was an elected 2008 Hillary Clinton DNC delegate and have ran numerous campaigns for the Democrats. I also work in tech. Twitter supports Democrats. If you study the trending tweets, those that tend to easily trend favor Democrat issues, ideas and movements. Comments on object news articles promote Democratic comments over conservative commenters. Looking deeper, if you study campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter, its at North Korean levels (95% Democratic Party vs 5% All others) of popular support. How is this level of political support different than TikTok's support for the CCP? How are the design patterns and motivations of TikTok worse than twitter?

psyklic 6y ago
Couldn't the userbase be more to blame than Twitter? Pew Research says that "Twitter users [are] more likely to be Democrats" [1]. Also, 80% of all Tweets mentioning national politics were apparently made by users who "strongly disapprove" of Trump [2]. That provides a potential explanation for why comments and trending tweets may "favor Democrat issues" -- supposing that even is the case. I can't seem to find any reputable articles or evidence regarding the "trending tweets" political breakdown and "campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter" -- could we be pointed to some sources? [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-twitter-users/ https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-tw... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/10/23/national-politics-on-twitter-small-share-of-u-s-adults-produce-majority-of-tweets/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/10/23/national-pol...
- justinzollars 6y ago
  Campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter: [1] https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-contributions/?contributor_employer=twitter&two_year_transaction_period=2020&min_date=01%2F01%2F2019&max_date=12%2F31%2F2020 https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-contributions/?...
  - psyklic 6y ago
    Nice find! Based on this data, it does seem that contributions from Twitter employees are overwhelmingly to Democratic causes.

danielscrubs 6y ago

Maybe Google can learn a thing or two about how to do a recommendation engine that actually works for YouTube.