7 ms·

Sounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just to see wha

Sounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just to see what all the fuss was about. Seems much ado about nothing, why would I drop 8,000$ on a slab of iron, not even made in the USA anymore, when I could get twice the bike at half the weight for the same price from Suzuki?

FPGAhacker 6y ago
You can get a Harley for $8k?
- abfan1127 6y ago
  yeah, but its usually a cash deal on the side of the road where its broken down /s
- komali2 6y ago
  I think the Streets go for that?
lebaux 6y ago
Plenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship: 1. More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. 2. Better and more accessible competition from around the world. 3. Influencers. I know it is cool to hate them, but there are many building a brand around "one of us". As an example, one of the most popular female youtubers is doing shopping "hauls" in regular shops. You probably don't know that, why would HN watch beauty youtubers. But consider this. Linus Tech Tips is also influence marketing and you can see him talking about Linux, cheap peripherals, bashing Intel. Every category has its Linus. These people have tremendous pull, especially since younger people don't watch TV at all. 4. COVID-19. I speculate that the pandemic exposed how many companies have no reserves (either to low profits or simple because the executives are draining profits). 5. ...and many more, feel free to add.
- wahern 6y ago
  > Plenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship I only buy major brand-named items on Amazon, and only with Amazon as the seller. The one indispensable characteristic of branding, reputation, is more important than ever even though most brands' reputations are in the dumpster. Knock-offs of unknown or unreliable provenance just happen to be even worse. And even when you find a good non-branded item, reputation is still worse as non-branded items seem to change suppliers more regularly than the branded versions, and supply chain integrity is less trustworthy. In brick & mortar stores I always reach for the generic, in-house brand (assuming the price is lower) knowing that invariably they're made by the same manufacturer as one of the major brands. But contrast that with Amazon's in-house brands, where it's unlikely they source from the same manufacturer as the major brands, and also seem to change suppliers more regularly. American gun manufacturers have been outsourcing production for years. But that doesn't mean people no longer care about brands. Rather, many of those suppliers have made a name for themselves outright, or improved upon their previously lackluster reputation; those are the brands you often hear about today when people give recommendations.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    This has mostly been my experience (discounting the guns, as I don't have any interest in them). Amazon's actual brands like AmazonBasics seem to be relatively consistent in quality, but they have an awful lot of stuff sold by resellers whose names are clearly random capital letters strung together. During the pandemic, I've shifted more and more of my online shopping to Walmart.com, which -- while it has an increasing share of weird third-party sellers -- doesn't seem to have nearly the same level of out-and-out scams, and to ordering from manufacturers directly. Not only do I feel I'm more likely to get the real thing when I'm ordering that way, it's become surprisingly common for me to find cheaper prices than Amazon's.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. It's also a factor that so many companies nowadays see their brand built over decades by previous generations of workers and management as just another resource to suck dry. Shareholders are blinded to this but they ought to be angry, that is the long-term value of their investment being burnt to paper over management's lack of strategic vision.
takeda 6y ago
But does Suzuki make noise as if a muffler fell off?
- mPReDiToR 6y ago
  I know you were joking, but having ridden a Fat Boy and currently owning a 1l V-Strom I can say that the ridiculously noisy cans on my Suki are nicer to listen to at anything over 1,200 RPM. The Harley burbling away is really cool, but not when you're draging it up to cruising speed.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Stock Harleys aren't loud either. The loud ones are all aftermarket mods than any bike can have.
  - ultrarunner 6y ago
    Eh… I was just in a Harley dealer last weekend and a salescritter was riding one around the showroom (…yeah…) and it was loud. I know they have db requirements to be imported or whatever, but I don't get the sense that Harley-Davidson is just now building quiet bikes.
    - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
      Dealers will swap out pipes so what you heard wasn't necessarily stock.
zrobotics 6y ago
Speaking as someone who owns a 64 panhead and owned a 72 ironhead (rebuilt both from parts): Harleys have almost always been inferior bikes that have a strange sort of charm. Realistically, they occupy the same place as Ural, outdated bikes that have appeal mostly for style. The last time that Harley had anything cutting-edge (ignoring Buell) was likely the knucklehead, which was developed in the 30s. $8k will buy you a used one (not new), but there is a damn good reason there are used Harleys with essentially zero miles avaliable everywhere. I have fun riding my antique crap, but the new ones are such crappy bikes for the money. A new BMW is the same money, for a more comfortable bike that is less maintenance cost. However, I used to live on the route to Sturgis for most of Colorado, Arizona, and western Texas, and I saw probably 80% trailers vs bikes. People don't buy them to ride them, they buy them to fulfill their midlife crisis. To further derail, I would argue Jack Daniel's, Levis, and REI are in the same boat- they are grossly overpriced compared to superior competitors and mostly trade on name brand and perception of past quality.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  REI, really? What are the superior competitors? And do you mean specifically the house-branded gear or the store as a whole? Genuinely curious, since I still shop there. Prices aren't the best but I like the selection and the return policy. Plus the salesdroids actually seem familiar with the gear.
  - topkai22 6y ago
    I’m with you- REI does premium retail really well and that involves more then being just a brand. You can save money elsewhere for equivalent gear, but you won’t get the same service.
    - jacobkania 6y ago
      I’m a big REI fan. I’m not one of those people who hikes every week or anything, but I like to go backpacking and hiking when I can. I also have met lots of people who do the same, and REI is pretty highly regarded among most people. Their products might not be the top-end in every category, but I’ve rarely had an issue with anything bought from them. Plus their service is so outstanding, I’ve been taken care of any time there’s been a problem. It’s totally worth it to me to spend a little more, to get the peace of mind that it’s a fairly good product (they don’t sell anything horrible like you’ll get on amazon or a dept store), and that they’ll take care of any issue that does happen.
donw 6y ago
Harley screwed themselves in a lot of different ways. First, they fought to protect their market with tariffs on imported bikes -- okay, fair enough -- but then did absolutely nothing to either grow that market, or innovate on their products at all. They just kept making the same bike, the same way, for a looooooooong time. Harley's branding was 100% focused on the "60's Rebel". The Hells Angel, or the dentist that wanted to pretend he was. The plethora of Japanese manufacturers, instead, worked to bring bikes to the masses. They made more reliable bikes, which were cheaper and easier to own, and marketed them to everybody. Dads. Moms. University students. Normal people, the kind that aren't keen on a Friday-night bar fight. If Harley had been run by forward-thinking management, they would have worked to create affiliate brands aimed at a variety of different demographics, and really worked to innovate on their reliability and quality. Buell was an attempt at this, but it was too little, too late.
- jacobush 6y ago
  And more efficient manufacturing for the conservative stuff. And better reliability, because really why not?
emmelaich 6y ago
Yes! Reminds of the AMF years of HD.
goatinaboat 6y ago
Sounds eerily similar to the Harley situation. I had the displeasure of renting a Harley something - street 500 or something along those lines - just to see what all the fuss was about. Seems much ado about nothing, why would I drop 8,000$ on a slab of iron, not even made in the USA anymore, when I could get twice the bike at half the weight for the same price from Suzuki? Even the Hell's Angels regret choosing Harley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Barger#2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Barger#2000s
wcarron 6y ago
I'll do ya 1 better: I had the displeasure of actually buying a new Harley (I was young and stupid). The street 500/750 are the worst of the worst from HD. The Iron 883 is the smallest "real" harley. And it's a completely different feel from the streets. However, it was a trashcan of a bike. I was always fixing weird issues, the HD dealership absolutely sucked in every facet from timeliness of service, to prices, to the guy at the service desk just not being a cunt. I upgraded many parts just to get the damn thing to perform at a reasonable level. Thankfully, I was hit by a car and my bike was totalled. This freed me to purchase a KTM 790 duke which is 160lbs lighter, with double the horsepower, 20% more torque, 80% longer service intervals, all for significantly less than the Iron 883. Harley-Davidson is literally hemmorhaging cash. Their main demo is aging out of the market and they haven't been able to sell to millenials because millenials aren't stupid and go buy a Yamaha MT-09 or Suzuki, etc for waaay less. And I'm hearing whispers that H-D willl be axing their new forays into ADV, standard, and E-bikes.
- jdhn 6y ago
  >I'm hearing whispers that H-D willl be axing their new forays into ADV, standard, and E-bikes. At that point they might as well start winding down the company. I read reviews of the Livewire (their e-bike) and most people seemed to like it despite the very high price.
  - wcarron 6y ago
    Yeah, sure. The fit and finish on the Livewire is great. But who can afford a $30k+ ebike? Especially one that gets barely 100 miles to the tank? Not young americans, that's for sure. Personally, I can't wait until H-D bites the dust. Hopefully once and for all. They're incredibly overpriced, underpowered, overweight, technologically obsolete bikes (aside from their 1 electric model that sold terribly) with dealerships that suck at customer service (and also charge way too much per hour)
- dharmab 6y ago
  You know reliability is bad when the KTM is an upgrade! (Former 390 owner who had to warranty their bike...) Even if you stay in cruisers- Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha and Indian quality compared to Harley is insane. It's as if the bikes were made in a different century.

FPGAhacker 6y ago

You can get a Harley for $8k?

abfan1127 6y ago
yeah, but its usually a cash deal on the side of the road where its broken down /s
komali2 6y ago
I think the Streets go for that?

lebaux 6y ago

Plenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship: 1. More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. 2. Better and more accessible competition from around the world. 3. Influencers. I know it is cool to hate them, but there are many building a brand around "one of us". As an example, one of the most popular female youtubers is doing shopping "hauls" in regular shops. You probably don't know that, why would HN watch beauty youtubers. But consider this. Linus Tech Tips is also influence marketing and you can see him talking about Linux, cheap peripherals, bashing Intel. Every category has its Linus. These people have tremendous pull, especially since younger people don't watch TV at all. 4. COVID-19. I speculate that the pandemic exposed how many companies have no reserves (either to low profits or simple because the executives are draining profits). 5. ...and many more, feel free to add.

wahern 6y ago
> Plenty of factors are helping humans to move on from brand worship I only buy major brand-named items on Amazon, and only with Amazon as the seller. The one indispensable characteristic of branding, reputation, is more important than ever even though most brands' reputations are in the dumpster. Knock-offs of unknown or unreliable provenance just happen to be even worse. And even when you find a good non-branded item, reputation is still worse as non-branded items seem to change suppliers more regularly than the branded versions, and supply chain integrity is less trustworthy. In brick & mortar stores I always reach for the generic, in-house brand (assuming the price is lower) knowing that invariably they're made by the same manufacturer as one of the major brands. But contrast that with Amazon's in-house brands, where it's unlikely they source from the same manufacturer as the major brands, and also seem to change suppliers more regularly. American gun manufacturers have been outsourcing production for years. But that doesn't mean people no longer care about brands. Rather, many of those suppliers have made a name for themselves outright, or improved upon their previously lackluster reputation; those are the brands you often hear about today when people give recommendations.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  This has mostly been my experience (discounting the guns, as I don't have any interest in them). Amazon's actual brands like AmazonBasics seem to be relatively consistent in quality, but they have an awful lot of stuff sold by resellers whose names are clearly random capital letters strung together. During the pandemic, I've shifted more and more of my online shopping to Walmart.com, which -- while it has an increasing share of weird third-party sellers -- doesn't seem to have nearly the same level of out-and-out scams, and to ordering from manufacturers directly. Not only do I feel I'm more likely to get the real thing when I'm ordering that way, it's become surprisingly common for me to find cheaper prices than Amazon's.
goatinaboat 6y ago
More information. The iconning brands like Harley or Marlboro are from pre-internet era and heavily relied on freedom image. It was just accepted as an expression of culture. This doesn't really work when wages are not rising with GDP. In other words, people care less about brand and more about utility and price. It's also a factor that so many companies nowadays see their brand built over decades by previous generations of workers and management as just another resource to suck dry. Shareholders are blinded to this but they ought to be angry, that is the long-term value of their investment being burnt to paper over management's lack of strategic vision.

takeda 6y ago

But does Suzuki make noise as if a muffler fell off?

mPReDiToR 6y ago
I know you were joking, but having ridden a Fat Boy and currently owning a 1l V-Strom I can say that the ridiculously noisy cans on my Suki are nicer to listen to at anything over 1,200 RPM. The Harley burbling away is really cool, but not when you're draging it up to cruising speed.
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Stock Harleys aren't loud either. The loud ones are all aftermarket mods than any bike can have.
- ultrarunner 6y ago
  Eh… I was just in a Harley dealer last weekend and a salescritter was riding one around the showroom (…yeah…) and it was loud. I know they have db requirements to be imported or whatever, but I don't get the sense that Harley-Davidson is just now building quiet bikes.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    Dealers will swap out pipes so what you heard wasn't necessarily stock.

zrobotics 6y ago

Speaking as someone who owns a 64 panhead and owned a 72 ironhead (rebuilt both from parts): Harleys have almost always been inferior bikes that have a strange sort of charm. Realistically, they occupy the same place as Ural, outdated bikes that have appeal mostly for style. The last time that Harley had anything cutting-edge (ignoring Buell) was likely the knucklehead, which was developed in the 30s. $8k will buy you a used one (not new), but there is a damn good reason there are used Harleys with essentially zero miles avaliable everywhere. I have fun riding my antique crap, but the new ones are such crappy bikes for the money. A new BMW is the same money, for a more comfortable bike that is less maintenance cost. However, I used to live on the route to Sturgis for most of Colorado, Arizona, and western Texas, and I saw probably 80% trailers vs bikes. People don't buy them to ride them, they buy them to fulfill their midlife crisis. To further derail, I would argue Jack Daniel's, Levis, and REI are in the same boat- they are grossly overpriced compared to superior competitors and mostly trade on name brand and perception of past quality.

stickfigure 6y ago
REI, really? What are the superior competitors? And do you mean specifically the house-branded gear or the store as a whole? Genuinely curious, since I still shop there. Prices aren't the best but I like the selection and the return policy. Plus the salesdroids actually seem familiar with the gear.
- topkai22 6y ago
  I’m with you- REI does premium retail really well and that involves more then being just a brand. You can save money elsewhere for equivalent gear, but you won’t get the same service.
  - jacobkania 6y ago
    I’m a big REI fan. I’m not one of those people who hikes every week or anything, but I like to go backpacking and hiking when I can. I also have met lots of people who do the same, and REI is pretty highly regarded among most people. Their products might not be the top-end in every category, but I’ve rarely had an issue with anything bought from them. Plus their service is so outstanding, I’ve been taken care of any time there’s been a problem. It’s totally worth it to me to spend a little more, to get the peace of mind that it’s a fairly good product (they don’t sell anything horrible like you’ll get on amazon or a dept store), and that they’ll take care of any issue that does happen.

donw 6y ago

Harley screwed themselves in a lot of different ways. First, they fought to protect their market with tariffs on imported bikes -- okay, fair enough -- but then did absolutely nothing to either grow that market, or innovate on their products at all. They just kept making the same bike, the same way, for a looooooooong time. Harley's branding was 100% focused on the "60's Rebel". The Hells Angel, or the dentist that wanted to pretend he was. The plethora of Japanese manufacturers, instead, worked to bring bikes to the masses. They made more reliable bikes, which were cheaper and easier to own, and marketed them to everybody. Dads. Moms. University students. Normal people, the kind that aren't keen on a Friday-night bar fight. If Harley had been run by forward-thinking management, they would have worked to create affiliate brands aimed at a variety of different demographics, and really worked to innovate on their reliability and quality. Buell was an attempt at this, but it was too little, too late.

jacobush 6y ago
And more efficient manufacturing for the conservative stuff. And better reliability, because really why not?

emmelaich 6y ago

Yes! Reminds of the AMF years of HD.

goatinaboat 6y ago

wcarron 6y ago

I'll do ya 1 better: I had the displeasure of actually buying a new Harley (I was young and stupid). The street 500/750 are the worst of the worst from HD. The Iron 883 is the smallest "real" harley. And it's a completely different feel from the streets. However, it was a trashcan of a bike. I was always fixing weird issues, the HD dealership absolutely sucked in every facet from timeliness of service, to prices, to the guy at the service desk just not being a cunt. I upgraded many parts just to get the damn thing to perform at a reasonable level. Thankfully, I was hit by a car and my bike was totalled. This freed me to purchase a KTM 790 duke which is 160lbs lighter, with double the horsepower, 20% more torque, 80% longer service intervals, all for significantly less than the Iron 883. Harley-Davidson is literally hemmorhaging cash. Their main demo is aging out of the market and they haven't been able to sell to millenials because millenials aren't stupid and go buy a Yamaha MT-09 or Suzuki, etc for waaay less. And I'm hearing whispers that H-D willl be axing their new forays into ADV, standard, and E-bikes.

jdhn 6y ago
>I'm hearing whispers that H-D willl be axing their new forays into ADV, standard, and E-bikes. At that point they might as well start winding down the company. I read reviews of the Livewire (their e-bike) and most people seemed to like it despite the very high price.
- wcarron 6y ago
  Yeah, sure. The fit and finish on the Livewire is great. But who can afford a $30k+ ebike? Especially one that gets barely 100 miles to the tank? Not young americans, that's for sure. Personally, I can't wait until H-D bites the dust. Hopefully once and for all. They're incredibly overpriced, underpowered, overweight, technologically obsolete bikes (aside from their 1 electric model that sold terribly) with dealerships that suck at customer service (and also charge way too much per hour)
dharmab 6y ago
You know reliability is bad when the KTM is an upgrade! (Former 390 owner who had to warranty their bike...) Even if you stay in cruisers- Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha and Indian quality compared to Harley is insane. It's as if the bikes were made in a different century.