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I've been a dancer for 30 years, of many forms. The best way I can describe dancing to non-practitioners is that it's like playing a silent, wearable musical i

I've been a dancer for 30 years, of many forms. The best way I can describe dancing to non-practitioners is that it's like playing a silent, wearable musical instrument that demands attention from your entire body. It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively :-)

ninjaturtlez 6y ago
Do you seriously not think that playing a sport requires control of your entire body? Have you ever tried to actively improve at a sport? Everything from basketball to golf is fine muscle control from the lowest to highest levels. Some people cant see their own bias I guess. :)
- jbverschoor 6y ago
  He’s describing it as a musical instrument. I think that’s a very good comparison, and is indeed not related to other sports.
- cactus2093 6y ago
  Looks like you're just as caught up in your own bias as everyone else though :) Not sure why you jumped to the conclusion that someone saying "X is not like playing a sport" is a claim that "sports are trivially easy compared to X". I don't think the parent comment was claiming that at all, just that they're different, namely that dance is not inherently competitive.
  - cik2e 6y ago
    It’s pretty obvious that the parent post isn’t saying that dance is different in that it’s not inherently competitive, but rather that sports have to be done at a competitive level to match the physical requirements of dance. And I strongly disagree with that sentiment. My claim is that sports done with deliberate practice aimed at improving technique are just like dance done with deliberate practice aimed at improving technique.
- cooliosis 6y ago
  I think it's easier to be less aware of your entire body while practicing for other sports. As someone who plays basketball and tennis, it takes a lot of focus to pay attention to my whole body for an entire practice session (vs. just a single part that I'm trying to improve). Most of the time, if I don't explicitly try to pay attention, I just use muscle memory and try to get into "the zone". In tennis for example, I only need to pay maximal attention when learning a stroke (although of course it's beneficial to pay attention to every body part when just regularly playing - it's not necessary, and certainly something that a lot of recreational players don't do). Whereas with dance, it's required that you pay attention to your entire body for the entire practice session to memorize a choreography. I think that's the difference that's important for this paper. If my elderly dad were to play basketball, he might rely on muscle memory. Whereas, if his nursing home taught dance classes, he would definitively have to pay attention to all of his body parts.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - pizza234 6y ago
    My experience is different. In both sports and dances, I've always been asked/required to pay attention to the entire body. For example, in climbing, it's a mechanical necessity, while in table tennis, it's required for efficiency and power.
- networkimprov 6y ago
  it == dancing && it != sport dancing.entails(entire_body) sport.entails(entire_body) Clearer now?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - rdp3453 6y ago
    PR comments: - is this some kind of Shrodinger's "it", the second check is irrelevant - Needs indentation
- reificator 6y ago
  > Do you seriously not think that playing a sport requires control of your entire body? Have you ever tried to actively improve at a sport? Everything from basketball to golf is fine muscle control from the lowest to highest levels. I want you to read this entire sentence, including the part after "except". I want you to tell me what you think that last clause means. > It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively Do you think there is perhaps the slightest chance that they did not intend to say that "playing a sport does not require control of your entire body"? Is there even a tiny possibility that they said that dancing non-competitively is not like playing a sport, perhaps because they are including competition in the definition of sport? > Some people cant see their own bias I guess. :) Agreed.
tjoff 6y ago
So, you need to be a competitive dancer then? ;) To get that good you need discipline and dance for years (or just be a natural), so don't seem that far fetched to be at a similar difficulty level as sports in this regard.
- networkimprov 6y ago
  Well I'd guess stress is inherent to most competition, because of the win/lose outcome. I'm sure that's not always a net negative, but I can say it hurt my dancing during the few times I've tried it competitively.
- mikepurvis 6y ago
  You can be a competent partner/social dancer (swing, salsa, tango, waltz) in a few months of weekly instruction and practice (eg, attending dances).
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    It's too bad most people who try partner dancing don't stick it out long enough to break through the awkward stage to where it gets to be a lot of fun.
    - roywiggins 6y ago
      I think that's true for most hobbies, though. It's easy to bounce off anything that takes a bit of skill, because it can be a fairly large time commitment for an unknown payoff.
      - pizza234 6y ago
        I've done lots of activies, including sports and dance, and some activities simply have a higher barrier than others. Partner dancing - at least leading - is definitely on the higher side :-) There are several factors. Leaders must endure months where they can do little or nothing, and they have to do it among people who always look great - if they social dance; if they don't, their learning time increases. Then there's a lot of pressure of performing with and for somebody who's usually of the opposite sex (this applies also to follows). It takes a lot (internally) before feeling comfortable enough to "simply enjoy". Playing an instrument or practicing an individual sport doesn't have such pressures.
mhh__ 6y ago
I don't dance, but (when fencing) I've been told that fencing scratches a similar itch to some forms of dancing (apparently). You are also acting for the referee too, thinking about it.
corpMaverick 6y ago
Thanks for the analogy. I feel that dance would be a great form of exercise for my kids(6m and 4f). Additionally gaining a lot of body awareness that can be useful through many areas in life. But I don't like how much emphasis is there on pointe (in ballet). It seems counter productive.
CalChris 6y ago
Dance certainly helped my basketball (when I played) but basketball did not help my dance.
- pizza234 6y ago
  I've attended a workshop of a world-known dancer. They were saying that some dancers who got good quickly, were sports people prior to dancing. I personally support this theory; ultimately, in a very basic form, both dance and sport are grounded on physical coordination.
  - cycomanic 6y ago
    I think there are several aspects to this. First good athletes often have very good body awareness, but also and this is quite important as well, they are used to working and practicing with only seeing small immediate gains. In my experience many people who take up dancing see very experienced dancers and expect they will be able to do this after one or two courses. They then get frustrated, when they discover it's difficult and simply give up.
ak39 6y ago
This is a profound comment. Thank you.
ChuckMcM 6y ago
That is an excellent analogy, it is similar to martial arts and Tai Chi. That said, professional athletes I've known pay a lot of attention to their specific form when doing actions to minimize energy and maximize power. It appears to me to be the difference between actively managing how your body moves versus just letting it do what ever to get the action done.
- quickthrower2 6y ago
  I would guess Yoga is good for this too then. And I imagine if this this the case "drunken night club dancing" might not count - you would need to deliberately practice dancing?
  - ChuckMcM 6y ago
    I would guess that a good follow on paper would be to look at any activity which involved active kinematic management of the body to see if it had similar markers.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cik2e 6y ago
Here are just a few examples of sports that require continuous attention from your entire body in response to an external stimulus: Snowboarding, downhill skiing, mountain biking, and any martial art. These are from personal experience, I’m sure there are plenty of other examples. Even weight training, which is an experimental group in this article, when done properly, requires high levels of neuro-muscular coordination and development. I am always weary of studies that evaluate “strength training” because there are so many different approaches with wildly different outcomes. Let’s just say that a max effort squat by an athlete with around two years of proper training emphasizing technique requires a hell of a lot more coordination than busting a move on the dance floor. I’ve been weight training for 15 years and I still feel like I am learning something new every time I get under the bar with the right mindset. The mindset part is key, because if you are just going through the motions then you’re not developing new skills. But I would bet a lot of money that top level strength athletes would say that their form is far from “perfect” and that this the area that affords the biggest opportunity for improvement. This is the part where I’m going to be brash. Unless you tell me exactly what defines a strength training regimen in your study, I will assume it’s something along the lines of curls and lunges done with tiny dumbbells over a large amount of reps. Especially if your study calls it “repetitive”. There’s nothing repetitive about proper strength training. Every rep that’s done mindfully affords a unique learning opportunity. Sports simply too complex to categorize in simple terms like “dancing” or “resistance training”. In the context of experimental design, our definitions have to be much more precise. Having said all that, this is how I interpret this article: “Learning complex motor skills that require high levels of attention is better for the brain than doing 100 curls with 3 lb dumbbells.” And my response to that is “no shit”.
- eigenhombre 6y ago
  > Every rep that’s done mindfully affords a unique learning opportunity. Could you suggest a source on this? One that presents this sort of approach to resistance training, ideally for relative newcomers?
  - lottin 6y ago
    Check out Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore.
gbuk2013 6y ago
I’m an (international level) competitive ballroom dancer and a martial artist of 15 years and there’s a lot of overlap between the two. And it’s really valuable to me as a software engineer - at the very least it forces me out of my chair at 6.30pm 5 days a week to go to the studio, when otherwise I could easily find myself working 12-14 hours days because I am “in the zone” (which is easy for me to do because of the years of martial arts and meditation practice) which for sure would not be good for my health. It is also a great emotional outlet for me as most of my day I am dealing with machines and logic. And the best part is that I dance with my other half - we spend a lot of time together, travel together and get all our arguments done on the dance floor and not at home! :) I definitely recommend dancing, any kind, to anyone and everyone.
- sitkack 6y ago
  Why ballroom and not Tango? I find Tango pairs much more naturally to martial arts.
  - daliusd 6y ago
    Not op but I guess it depends. E.g. I know aikido, salsa (ny and Cuban), bachata, kizomba and tango. For me NY salsa looks the most martial artsy.
  - gbuk2013 6y ago
    Ballroom is 10 dances which means 10 times the variety of music to dance to. Also our outfits are way fancier. :-p
    - sitkack 6y ago
      It was a bit of a setup, ;) this is the answer I was looking for!
matwood 6y ago
Sounds a lot like jiu jitsu, which I find to be an amazing workout both mentally and physically.
Legogris 6y ago
> It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively :-) Or if you're into hi-tech trance or frenchcore ;)
vlasev 6y ago
I'm a dancer as well and this is spot on. Thanks for putting it into words! Even if you do it competitively, though, the analogy still holds. But then it becomes both that and a sport!

ninjaturtlez 6y ago

Do you seriously not think that playing a sport requires control of your entire body? Have you ever tried to actively improve at a sport? Everything from basketball to golf is fine muscle control from the lowest to highest levels. Some people cant see their own bias I guess. :)

jbverschoor 6y ago
He’s describing it as a musical instrument. I think that’s a very good comparison, and is indeed not related to other sports.
cactus2093 6y ago
Looks like you're just as caught up in your own bias as everyone else though :) Not sure why you jumped to the conclusion that someone saying "X is not like playing a sport" is a claim that "sports are trivially easy compared to X". I don't think the parent comment was claiming that at all, just that they're different, namely that dance is not inherently competitive.
- cik2e 6y ago
  It’s pretty obvious that the parent post isn’t saying that dance is different in that it’s not inherently competitive, but rather that sports have to be done at a competitive level to match the physical requirements of dance. And I strongly disagree with that sentiment. My claim is that sports done with deliberate practice aimed at improving technique are just like dance done with deliberate practice aimed at improving technique.
cooliosis 6y ago
I think it's easier to be less aware of your entire body while practicing for other sports. As someone who plays basketball and tennis, it takes a lot of focus to pay attention to my whole body for an entire practice session (vs. just a single part that I'm trying to improve). Most of the time, if I don't explicitly try to pay attention, I just use muscle memory and try to get into "the zone". In tennis for example, I only need to pay maximal attention when learning a stroke (although of course it's beneficial to pay attention to every body part when just regularly playing - it's not necessary, and certainly something that a lot of recreational players don't do). Whereas with dance, it's required that you pay attention to your entire body for the entire practice session to memorize a choreography. I think that's the difference that's important for this paper. If my elderly dad were to play basketball, he might rely on muscle memory. Whereas, if his nursing home taught dance classes, he would definitively have to pay attention to all of his body parts.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pizza234 6y ago
  My experience is different. In both sports and dances, I've always been asked/required to pay attention to the entire body. For example, in climbing, it's a mechanical necessity, while in table tennis, it's required for efficiency and power.
networkimprov 6y ago
it == dancing && it != sport dancing.entails(entire_body) sport.entails(entire_body) Clearer now?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- rdp3453 6y ago
  PR comments: - is this some kind of Shrodinger's "it", the second check is irrelevant - Needs indentation
reificator 6y ago
> Do you seriously not think that playing a sport requires control of your entire body? Have you ever tried to actively improve at a sport? Everything from basketball to golf is fine muscle control from the lowest to highest levels. I want you to read this entire sentence, including the part after "except". I want you to tell me what you think that last clause means. > It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively Do you think there is perhaps the slightest chance that they did not intend to say that "playing a sport does not require control of your entire body"? Is there even a tiny possibility that they said that dancing non-competitively is not like playing a sport, perhaps because they are including competition in the definition of sport? > Some people cant see their own bias I guess. :) Agreed.

tjoff 6y ago

So, you need to be a competitive dancer then? ;) To get that good you need discipline and dance for years (or just be a natural), so don't seem that far fetched to be at a similar difficulty level as sports in this regard.

networkimprov 6y ago
Well I'd guess stress is inherent to most competition, because of the win/lose outcome. I'm sure that's not always a net negative, but I can say it hurt my dancing during the few times I've tried it competitively.
mikepurvis 6y ago
You can be a competent partner/social dancer (swing, salsa, tango, waltz) in a few months of weekly instruction and practice (eg, attending dances).
- WalterBright 6y ago
  It's too bad most people who try partner dancing don't stick it out long enough to break through the awkward stage to where it gets to be a lot of fun.
  - roywiggins 6y ago
    I think that's true for most hobbies, though. It's easy to bounce off anything that takes a bit of skill, because it can be a fairly large time commitment for an unknown payoff.
    - pizza234 6y ago
      I've done lots of activies, including sports and dance, and some activities simply have a higher barrier than others. Partner dancing - at least leading - is definitely on the higher side :-) There are several factors. Leaders must endure months where they can do little or nothing, and they have to do it among people who always look great - if they social dance; if they don't, their learning time increases. Then there's a lot of pressure of performing with and for somebody who's usually of the opposite sex (this applies also to follows). It takes a lot (internally) before feeling comfortable enough to "simply enjoy". Playing an instrument or practicing an individual sport doesn't have such pressures.

mhh__ 6y ago

I don't dance, but (when fencing) I've been told that fencing scratches a similar itch to some forms of dancing (apparently). You are also acting for the referee too, thinking about it.

corpMaverick 6y ago

Thanks for the analogy. I feel that dance would be a great form of exercise for my kids(6m and 4f). Additionally gaining a lot of body awareness that can be useful through many areas in life. But I don't like how much emphasis is there on pointe (in ballet). It seems counter productive.

CalChris 6y ago

Dance certainly helped my basketball (when I played) but basketball did not help my dance.

pizza234 6y ago
I've attended a workshop of a world-known dancer. They were saying that some dancers who got good quickly, were sports people prior to dancing. I personally support this theory; ultimately, in a very basic form, both dance and sport are grounded on physical coordination.
- cycomanic 6y ago
  I think there are several aspects to this. First good athletes often have very good body awareness, but also and this is quite important as well, they are used to working and practicing with only seeing small immediate gains. In my experience many people who take up dancing see very experienced dancers and expect they will be able to do this after one or two courses. They then get frustrated, when they discover it's difficult and simply give up.

ak39 6y ago

This is a profound comment. Thank you.

ChuckMcM 6y ago

That is an excellent analogy, it is similar to martial arts and Tai Chi. That said, professional athletes I've known pay a lot of attention to their specific form when doing actions to minimize energy and maximize power. It appears to me to be the difference between actively managing how your body moves versus just letting it do what ever to get the action done.

quickthrower2 6y ago
I would guess Yoga is good for this too then. And I imagine if this this the case "drunken night club dancing" might not count - you would need to deliberately practice dancing?
- ChuckMcM 6y ago
  I would guess that a good follow on paper would be to look at any activity which involved active kinematic management of the body to see if it had similar markers.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cik2e 6y ago

Here are just a few examples of sports that require continuous attention from your entire body in response to an external stimulus: Snowboarding, downhill skiing, mountain biking, and any martial art. These are from personal experience, I’m sure there are plenty of other examples. Even weight training, which is an experimental group in this article, when done properly, requires high levels of neuro-muscular coordination and development. I am always weary of studies that evaluate “strength training” because there are so many different approaches with wildly different outcomes. Let’s just say that a max effort squat by an athlete with around two years of proper training emphasizing technique requires a hell of a lot more coordination than busting a move on the dance floor. I’ve been weight training for 15 years and I still feel like I am learning something new every time I get under the bar with the right mindset. The mindset part is key, because if you are just going through the motions then you’re not developing new skills. But I would bet a lot of money that top level strength athletes would say that their form is far from “perfect” and that this the area that affords the biggest opportunity for improvement. This is the part where I’m going to be brash. Unless you tell me exactly what defines a strength training regimen in your study, I will assume it’s something along the lines of curls and lunges done with tiny dumbbells over a large amount of reps. Especially if your study calls it “repetitive”. There’s nothing repetitive about proper strength training. Every rep that’s done mindfully affords a unique learning opportunity. Sports simply too complex to categorize in simple terms like “dancing” or “resistance training”. In the context of experimental design, our definitions have to be much more precise. Having said all that, this is how I interpret this article: “Learning complex motor skills that require high levels of attention is better for the brain than doing 100 curls with 3 lb dumbbells.” And my response to that is “no shit”.

eigenhombre 6y ago
> Every rep that’s done mindfully affords a unique learning opportunity. Could you suggest a source on this? One that presents this sort of approach to resistance training, ideally for relative newcomers?
- lottin 6y ago
  Check out Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore.

gbuk2013 6y ago

I’m an (international level) competitive ballroom dancer and a martial artist of 15 years and there’s a lot of overlap between the two. And it’s really valuable to me as a software engineer - at the very least it forces me out of my chair at 6.30pm 5 days a week to go to the studio, when otherwise I could easily find myself working 12-14 hours days because I am “in the zone” (which is easy for me to do because of the years of martial arts and meditation practice) which for sure would not be good for my health. It is also a great emotional outlet for me as most of my day I am dealing with machines and logic. And the best part is that I dance with my other half - we spend a lot of time together, travel together and get all our arguments done on the dance floor and not at home! :) I definitely recommend dancing, any kind, to anyone and everyone.

sitkack 6y ago
Why ballroom and not Tango? I find Tango pairs much more naturally to martial arts.
- daliusd 6y ago
  Not op but I guess it depends. E.g. I know aikido, salsa (ny and Cuban), bachata, kizomba and tango. For me NY salsa looks the most martial artsy.
- gbuk2013 6y ago
  Ballroom is 10 dances which means 10 times the variety of music to dance to. Also our outfits are way fancier. :-p
  - sitkack 6y ago
    It was a bit of a setup, ;) this is the answer I was looking for!

matwood 6y ago

Sounds a lot like jiu jitsu, which I find to be an amazing workout both mentally and physically.

Legogris 6y ago

> It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively :-) Or if you're into hi-tech trance or frenchcore ;)

vlasev 6y ago

I'm a dancer as well and this is spot on. Thanks for putting it into words! Even if you do it competitively, though, the analogy still holds. But then it becomes both that and a sport!