7 ms·

55% Yelp businesses that were temp closed are now perm

74 points by onewhonknocks 6y ago

LanguageGamer 6y ago
This is a tragedy in its own right. Small businesses create richer communities and help stave off cultural homogeneity. They can be a source of pride for locals. They help de-centralize economic power. I hope we can find a way to rebuild what's being lost here.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  Are you buying only local? As I agree with you, most people I know just order from Amazon even though the local places deliver too (the owners often drive themselves; or their children). Or, if not a Covid spot, go there ofcourse. Still, why pay a cent extra right? Not saying you think like that but most people do. Restaurant/fastfood chains are preferred over local ones as well. I have no clue why (outside money, but cooking yourself is cheaper and nicer): if I wanted to eat plastic, I could just eat a garbage bag. But it is what it is. Same goes for wine, beer etc; you fav craftbeer is probably owned by Heineken, while the local brewers are going out of business, even if their beer is far better. Stimulating local businesses starts with completely cutting out the companies that own everything. People will never do that though for many reasons. It starts with money; without subsidising local companies by the gov, there is no way they can compete.
  - enahs-sf 6y ago
    I have definitely been supporting my local brewers much to the chagrin of my wife and waistline.
    - tluyben2 6y ago
      Why does your wife not like it? Mine is a brewer, so i'm curious. Edit: as I get downvoted, let me reformulate as I guess it reads different than I meant (not native English). I am curious why she doesn't like; my wife being a brewer has nothing to do with it.
      - mensetmanusman 6y ago
        Since no one has explained it, The joke is that he is enjoying local brewers so much that he has gained a lot of weight or has some behavior changes due to increased alcohol intake that bother his wife :)
        tluyben2 6y ago
        ah I indeed did not get that; weight gain sure, but that seemed a separate item from wife’s chagrin. Thanks for explaining!
  - dehrmann 6y ago
    > ...fastfood chains are preferred over local ones as well. I have no clue why (outside money, but cooking yourself is cheaper and nicer) Cooking for myself costs me more per calorie than fast food, probably even more per meal, especially if I want it to be nicer.
    - onion2k 6y ago
      There are 563 calories in a Big Mac, and the average price across the US is $5.71. You could get the same number of calories from ~190g of cooked white rice. At Costco prices that's about 38 cents. You could spend $5 on things to put on top of the rice and still come out ahead. Obviously there are cheaper fast food options than a Big Mac, and I've used average prices which doesn't help you, and I've assumed you're in the US, and I haven't accounted for things like fuel and water, but there's something seriously wrong with the market economics of where you live if fast food is really cheaper than cooking for yourself.
      - tluyben2 6y ago
        I do not count calories so I don't know about that. I don't know why anyone would unless you are either very underweight or very over weight (the latter, cooking yourself will definitely help). I live in the EU and my fav foods are egg fried rice, pizza & curries; all of them are vastly cheaper to make myself (with smart shopping); far healthier, tastier/nicer (matter of taste for sure!). I see a pizza at NYC Domino's will cost you $7.99 with a coupon; mine, including wood + ingredients comes to around half of that. Ofcourse not counting time; counting time makes all cooking crazy costly, but yeah, it does so with a lot of other things as well; actual eating (fastfood or otherwise; why not a nutrients drip next to your computer?), going to the gym, shopping, cleaning, showering, going to the toilet and most people probably did not optimise any of those either.
      - gridlockd 6y ago
        That much cooked white rice is a very high glycemic load. I'd rather get my diabetes from candy, thanks. I think you missed a subtle point though: Cooking takes time and energy, which you should not value at $0, unless you really enjoy cooking, in which case you probably don't eat at McDonald's a lot.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    A lot of local restaurants in small town USA source their ingredients from Sysco. While ownership of the venue might be local, the actual food is hardly different from that at chains.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Unpopular opinion: I'm not convinced of small local businesses. Where I live, it feels like "that shop has always been here, it must remain here" without looking at whether it's really still providing the same service. I believe it's fine for shops to close, others to open, or to reinvent themselves. There's always the argument "the town won't be the same if they're gone". That's true, but change isn't bad, it's just different.
  - nicc 6y ago
    Sure, who cares about people in your community losing everything, right?
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > This is a tragedy in its own right. You have no idea. The impact on the US small business market will dwarf corona, and last for decades. Millions of small businesspersons will either lose their stake (the capital to maintain or start a business) or just retire. This is an existential crisis for US society and culture - really the death of the American Dream. TARP saved the small and medium auto suppliers, but I don't see any easy way to get out of this spiral.
- dclowd9901 6y ago
  Big businesses aren’t new. Small businesses crop up because people love them. They’re not going anywhere. Calm down.
  - gridlockd 6y ago
    Have you ever run a small business? People may "love" them, but that usually translates to keeping them barely above water. At some point, the system will run out of suckers who put their lifeblood into a venture rather than a cozy job.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      We keep talking about small businesses largely because of political conditioning. Small businesses struggle because people are too poor to afford anything more than cheap crap at Walmart and McDonalds. We should focus on providing basics to all americans instead of getting upset when the pop-up barbecue ice cream truck doesn't make any money and went under when people's health became more important than someone's life long "dream" to become a barista at their own cafe.
MattGaiser 6y ago
Is there a marketplace for easily buying closed businesses? As much as it may be unpleasant, it may be beneficial for employment to help hedge funds with a lot of cash snap these up to prevent them and the associated jobs from disappearing entirely.
- itake 6y ago
  I’m definitely thinking about that too. I’d love to have a side hustle brick and mortar biz alongside my day job.
  - rootsudo 6y ago
    No you wouldn't. These businesses failed for a reason, buying them for pennies on the dollar helps on the cap ex but not on op ex, or payroll. But it would be fun.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      They failed for a reason, but who hasn't gone into a shop that doesn't run well and thought "I know how to fix this", that'd be the chance. If I was rich, I'd personally buy a super market, simply because they do so many things that annoy me as a customer and I'd like to try and change them and see whether one can do better.
      - cgriswald 6y ago
        I know just such a store. I looked into opening a competitor, but the margins were extremely ugly and there were other complications. Years later by pure chance I became friends with someone who, another year later, I learned had worked at the store. He confirmed not only what I discovered for myself, but also that this particular store was basically a rich person’s hobby and probably didn’t actually make money.
      - raverbashing 6y ago
        "Doesn't run well" but maybe not for the reasons you think. Yes your local coffee shop might have some quirks compared to a local Starbucks but their lack of efficiency is not on the store per se, rather than Starbucks has: a) bigger leverage in rents b) effective lower corporate tax c) more streamlined supply chains And then you think, why are not people buying mom and pop shops and running them independently with high efficiency? Because it is hard
bpodgursky 6y ago
I've wondered if part of the discrepancy between the stock market and the broader economy, is that the pandemic is going to disproportionately crush small / private / not-publicly-traded businesses who don't have any financial buffer to weather a downturn. Like, maybe Starbucks traffic is down 20% or whatever, but if 50% of their competition (independent coffeeshops) permanently close, they'll be better set up for success in the 5 years to come, and this accounts for their current relatively strong valuation. (obviously even stronger in the case of AMZN, but even Target and Wal-Mart are benefitting from being allowed to stay open, while a lot of their competition was shut down -- speciality stores like salons and clothing stores were closed, but big-box stores selling everything stayed open)
- chii 6y ago
  > if 50% of their competition (independent coffeeshops) permanently close indie coffee shops will come again. Starbucks coffee is basically the mcdonalds of restaurants - no real flavour and too much sugar imho. It's good, consistent, but not top notch quality. Indie coffee shops are usually run by people who are passionate about making the best cup. This downturn will kill some of them - but i'm sure they will eventually return.
  - bpodgursky 6y ago
    Sure, nothing is forever. But starting a business takes a lot of time and energy. 5 years or so of minimal competition gives Starbucks an edge, time to retrench or pull in a profit.
  - dehrmann 6y ago
    > indie coffee shops will come again. Old data, but a decade ago, I saw an independent coffee shop for sale for around $50k. Obviously, not everyone can afford to open one, but the barrier to entry is relatively low. Boeing and Airbus are too big to fail for the same reason: they're strategically important, no one else has the knowledge and expertise to build large passenger jets (Embraer and Bombardier might be able to do it in a pinch), and redeveloping this would take too long.
hbcondo714 6y ago
Previous discussion from a couple days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23923172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23923172
spike021 6y ago
There's this one purely catering (Vietnamese) coffee "company" that has entirely pivoted to pop-ups the past few months, and using donations from customers to fund deliveries of coffees to hospitals and other front-line worker orgs. I'm sure that not _every_ business can do this, but I've definitely enjoyed supporting this business in particular because I like their coffee, and I know it's supporting them and the community at least for now. I think for some businesses they just won't be able to survive unless they can pivot. One way that I've seen is by giving up a brick and mortar location, moving to a shared/communal kitchen, and then doing pop-ups.
Animats 6y ago
How many YC businesses have closed?
- nicc 6y ago
  Maybe you mean startups. You can't really compared a startup with a bakery.
- 908087 6y ago
  Will be interesting to see how the cash incinerator industry holds up for sure.
ianamartin 6y ago
If this economic downturn helps put extortionist companies like Yelp out of business, bring it. The companies that survive or resurrect will be better off without them. That's the free market. When things are booming, pigfuckers like yelp are free to seek rent and extort. When things go bad, hopefully yelp and yelp-like things go down with everyone else. I don't wish unemployment on anyone who actually works for a living. But the C-suite and investors of companies like Yelp can take a dive, as far as I'm concerned.

74 points by onewhonknocks 6y ago

This is a tragedy in its own right. Small businesses create richer communities and help stave off cultural homogeneity. They can be a source of pride for locals. They help de-centralize economic power. I hope we can find a way to rebuild what's being lost here.

tluyben2 6y ago
Are you buying only local? As I agree with you, most people I know just order from Amazon even though the local places deliver too (the owners often drive themselves; or their children). Or, if not a Covid spot, go there ofcourse. Still, why pay a cent extra right? Not saying you think like that but most people do. Restaurant/fastfood chains are preferred over local ones as well. I have no clue why (outside money, but cooking yourself is cheaper and nicer): if I wanted to eat plastic, I could just eat a garbage bag. But it is what it is. Same goes for wine, beer etc; you fav craftbeer is probably owned by Heineken, while the local brewers are going out of business, even if their beer is far better. Stimulating local businesses starts with completely cutting out the companies that own everything. People will never do that though for many reasons. It starts with money; without subsidising local companies by the gov, there is no way they can compete.
- enahs-sf 6y ago
  I have definitely been supporting my local brewers much to the chagrin of my wife and waistline.
  - tluyben2 6y ago
    Why does your wife not like it? Mine is a brewer, so i'm curious. Edit: as I get downvoted, let me reformulate as I guess it reads different than I meant (not native English). I am curious why she doesn't like; my wife being a brewer has nothing to do with it.
    - mensetmanusman 6y ago
      Since no one has explained it, The joke is that he is enjoying local brewers so much that he has gained a lot of weight or has some behavior changes due to increased alcohol intake that bother his wife :)
      - tluyben2 6y ago
        ah I indeed did not get that; weight gain sure, but that seemed a separate item from wife’s chagrin. Thanks for explaining!
- dehrmann 6y ago
  > ...fastfood chains are preferred over local ones as well. I have no clue why (outside money, but cooking yourself is cheaper and nicer) Cooking for myself costs me more per calorie than fast food, probably even more per meal, especially if I want it to be nicer.
  - onion2k 6y ago
    There are 563 calories in a Big Mac, and the average price across the US is $5.71. You could get the same number of calories from ~190g of cooked white rice. At Costco prices that's about 38 cents. You could spend $5 on things to put on top of the rice and still come out ahead. Obviously there are cheaper fast food options than a Big Mac, and I've used average prices which doesn't help you, and I've assumed you're in the US, and I haven't accounted for things like fuel and water, but there's something seriously wrong with the market economics of where you live if fast food is really cheaper than cooking for yourself.
    - tluyben2 6y ago
      I do not count calories so I don't know about that. I don't know why anyone would unless you are either very underweight or very over weight (the latter, cooking yourself will definitely help). I live in the EU and my fav foods are egg fried rice, pizza & curries; all of them are vastly cheaper to make myself (with smart shopping); far healthier, tastier/nicer (matter of taste for sure!). I see a pizza at NYC Domino's will cost you $7.99 with a coupon; mine, including wood + ingredients comes to around half of that. Ofcourse not counting time; counting time makes all cooking crazy costly, but yeah, it does so with a lot of other things as well; actual eating (fastfood or otherwise; why not a nutrients drip next to your computer?), going to the gym, shopping, cleaning, showering, going to the toilet and most people probably did not optimise any of those either.
    - gridlockd 6y ago
      That much cooked white rice is a very high glycemic load. I'd rather get my diabetes from candy, thanks. I think you missed a subtle point though: Cooking takes time and energy, which you should not value at $0, unless you really enjoy cooking, in which case you probably don't eat at McDonald's a lot.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  A lot of local restaurants in small town USA source their ingredients from Sysco. While ownership of the venue might be local, the actual food is hardly different from that at chains.
luckylion 6y ago
Unpopular opinion: I'm not convinced of small local businesses. Where I live, it feels like "that shop has always been here, it must remain here" without looking at whether it's really still providing the same service. I believe it's fine for shops to close, others to open, or to reinvent themselves. There's always the argument "the town won't be the same if they're gone". That's true, but change isn't bad, it's just different.
- nicc 6y ago
  Sure, who cares about people in your community losing everything, right?
redis_mlc 6y ago
> This is a tragedy in its own right. You have no idea. The impact on the US small business market will dwarf corona, and last for decades. Millions of small businesspersons will either lose their stake (the capital to maintain or start a business) or just retire. This is an existential crisis for US society and culture - really the death of the American Dream. TARP saved the small and medium auto suppliers, but I don't see any easy way to get out of this spiral.
dclowd9901 6y ago
Big businesses aren’t new. Small businesses crop up because people love them. They’re not going anywhere. Calm down.
- gridlockd 6y ago
  Have you ever run a small business? People may "love" them, but that usually translates to keeping them barely above water. At some point, the system will run out of suckers who put their lifeblood into a venture rather than a cozy job.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    We keep talking about small businesses largely because of political conditioning. Small businesses struggle because people are too poor to afford anything more than cheap crap at Walmart and McDonalds. We should focus on providing basics to all americans instead of getting upset when the pop-up barbecue ice cream truck doesn't make any money and went under when people's health became more important than someone's life long "dream" to become a barista at their own cafe.

MattGaiser 6y ago

Is there a marketplace for easily buying closed businesses? As much as it may be unpleasant, it may be beneficial for employment to help hedge funds with a lot of cash snap these up to prevent them and the associated jobs from disappearing entirely.

itake 6y ago
I’m definitely thinking about that too. I’d love to have a side hustle brick and mortar biz alongside my day job.
- rootsudo 6y ago
  No you wouldn't. These businesses failed for a reason, buying them for pennies on the dollar helps on the cap ex but not on op ex, or payroll. But it would be fun.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    They failed for a reason, but who hasn't gone into a shop that doesn't run well and thought "I know how to fix this", that'd be the chance. If I was rich, I'd personally buy a super market, simply because they do so many things that annoy me as a customer and I'd like to try and change them and see whether one can do better.
    - cgriswald 6y ago
      I know just such a store. I looked into opening a competitor, but the margins were extremely ugly and there were other complications. Years later by pure chance I became friends with someone who, another year later, I learned had worked at the store. He confirmed not only what I discovered for myself, but also that this particular store was basically a rich person’s hobby and probably didn’t actually make money.
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      "Doesn't run well" but maybe not for the reasons you think. Yes your local coffee shop might have some quirks compared to a local Starbucks but their lack of efficiency is not on the store per se, rather than Starbucks has: a) bigger leverage in rents b) effective lower corporate tax c) more streamlined supply chains And then you think, why are not people buying mom and pop shops and running them independently with high efficiency? Because it is hard

bpodgursky 6y ago

I've wondered if part of the discrepancy between the stock market and the broader economy, is that the pandemic is going to disproportionately crush small / private / not-publicly-traded businesses who don't have any financial buffer to weather a downturn. Like, maybe Starbucks traffic is down 20% or whatever, but if 50% of their competition (independent coffeeshops) permanently close, they'll be better set up for success in the 5 years to come, and this accounts for their current relatively strong valuation. (obviously even stronger in the case of AMZN, but even Target and Wal-Mart are benefitting from being allowed to stay open, while a lot of their competition was shut down -- speciality stores like salons and clothing stores were closed, but big-box stores selling everything stayed open)

chii 6y ago
> if 50% of their competition (independent coffeeshops) permanently close indie coffee shops will come again. Starbucks coffee is basically the mcdonalds of restaurants - no real flavour and too much sugar imho. It's good, consistent, but not top notch quality. Indie coffee shops are usually run by people who are passionate about making the best cup. This downturn will kill some of them - but i'm sure they will eventually return.
- bpodgursky 6y ago
  Sure, nothing is forever. But starting a business takes a lot of time and energy. 5 years or so of minimal competition gives Starbucks an edge, time to retrench or pull in a profit.
- dehrmann 6y ago
  > indie coffee shops will come again. Old data, but a decade ago, I saw an independent coffee shop for sale for around $50k. Obviously, not everyone can afford to open one, but the barrier to entry is relatively low. Boeing and Airbus are too big to fail for the same reason: they're strategically important, no one else has the knowledge and expertise to build large passenger jets (Embraer and Bombardier might be able to do it in a pinch), and redeveloping this would take too long.

hbcondo714 6y ago

Previous discussion from a couple days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23923172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23923172

spike021 6y ago

There's this one purely catering (Vietnamese) coffee "company" that has entirely pivoted to pop-ups the past few months, and using donations from customers to fund deliveries of coffees to hospitals and other front-line worker orgs. I'm sure that not _every_ business can do this, but I've definitely enjoyed supporting this business in particular because I like their coffee, and I know it's supporting them and the community at least for now. I think for some businesses they just won't be able to survive unless they can pivot. One way that I've seen is by giving up a brick and mortar location, moving to a shared/communal kitchen, and then doing pop-ups.

Animats 6y ago

How many YC businesses have closed?

nicc 6y ago
Maybe you mean startups. You can't really compared a startup with a bakery.
908087 6y ago
Will be interesting to see how the cash incinerator industry holds up for sure.

ianamartin 6y ago

If this economic downturn helps put extortionist companies like Yelp out of business, bring it. The companies that survive or resurrect will be better off without them. That's the free market. When things are booming, pigfuckers like yelp are free to seek rent and extort. When things go bad, hopefully yelp and yelp-like things go down with everyone else. I don't wish unemployment on anyone who actually works for a living. But the C-suite and investors of companies like Yelp can take a dive, as far as I'm concerned.