11 ms·

There is both a pipeline problem and a bias problem and they are intertwined. Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would oth

by babesh 6y ago

There is both a pipeline problem and a bias problem and they are intertwined. Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. Poverty discriminates in myriad ways: lack of good role models and mentors, poor educational environments, lack of nutrition, lack of opportunities for enrichment, etc... Discrimination is also still present and different ethnic groups are affected differently. The negative effects of poverty and discrimination compound over time such that when you get to a tech company's hiring process, the pipeline would have shrunk massively. The students in this pipeline are competing against upper middle class kids who have been groomed their entire lives to compete in the system designed by people like them. As to the recruiting pipeline, there is class elitism/narrow mindedness in tech companies that does narrow recruiting. Some interviewers don't countenance views or attitudes other than their own just as some recruiters favor certain universities far more than others. This seems to be changing at least at the recruiting level. As to why some ethnicities still succeed or fail despite discrimination, that is at least partly cultural and partly selection bias and these in turn have also been affected by discrimination past and present. Lastly, I suspect the beef some poorer whites have is that they too have been discriminated against due to poverty and they feel that another group now has a leg up on them and that discrimination against them isn't acknowledged. I hope that we come up with a just system for everyone.

hnarn 6y ago
> Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. Poverty discriminates in myriad ways: lack of good role models and mentors, poor educational environments, lack of nutrition, lack of opportunities for enrichment, etc... While this is true in some cases, and you do point out that "discriminiation is also still present", I can strongly recommend "Reflecting on the Color of My Skin" by Marques Brownlee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_WXXVye3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_WXXVye3Y Regardless of the material differences between black and white people, I think white people (including myself) tend to underestimate the effect of constantly being treated as "the first black guy who..." -- that's racism too, and while not always toxic, it holds up a lot of other discriminatory practices by being the foundation of differentiation.
- babesh 6y ago
  I have already seen that video. I think not having a first doesn’t have to be discriminatory. The courage to not be dissuaded by that is actually a positive character trait. See this interview https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI 18 minutes in. He was short and was failing out of spacewalk training so he figured out a way to make it work.
  - hnarn 6y ago
    >I think not having a first doesn’t have to be discriminatory What do you mean by this more specifically? If you're a part of a minority with a history of oppression, which I hope we can all agree is true for black people in the US, are you saying there's zero things questionable about constantly pointing out that someone is black when they enter a "typically white" area of sports or other activity? I have always taken for granted that the definition of "racism" is not necessarily the same as "hating someone due to their race", but more generally "defining someone primarily by their race in a situation that does not call for it and only secondly by individual attributes". Examples of where it may be "called for" is obviously up for debate, could be highly relevant in medical trials for example.
    - babesh 6y ago
      I mean that there are two groups of people involved. The first is the person or people who is/are potentially the first of a particular ethnic group to achieve a position. If you are that person or people, you will need courage to not let that dissuade you. I don’t see any discrimination there. If you are dissuaded because there is no one before you, then you need more determination because for most people bad things happen in life and you need to deal with it. The second is everyone else. It would be discriminatory if others defined the first by their race in that situation. But that discrimination doesn’t necessarily happen.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  It's little bit like the tragedy of the rich people's kids: No matter how brilliant you are, many people would simply assume that you have been given the easy route thanks to daddy. Surely it is annoying and may make achievers to prove themselves over and over again, I don't think that it is big enough of an issue to dismiss programs that are designed to tackle real issues in the society. It's just that people should know where to stop and don't try to implement these in communities where less than perfect but good-enough status is achieved.
leafboi 6y ago
As a male Asian American I have been attacked by the system from both a discrimination standpoint, a biased standpoint and a class elitism standpoint. Where I stand right now even my own race, asian females prefer to date white males over their own race. If you don't believe me watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ8LzkIfmxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ8LzkIfmxw. That's just one aspect of the extent of racism we suffer from. It's so bad that females of our own race are disgusted with males of the same race. I've seen a lot of racism, I've had to battle a lot of the challenges of simply being an asian in a white dominated country, my parents had an even harder time with the language barrier when they first jumped off the boat with literally a dollar in their pocket. Despite all of this, from my own personal experience I will say this: The lack of diversity in tech is mostly a pipeline problem. Certain races or cultures or sexes simply don't want to go into tech or aren't willing to put in the effort. You don't even need to go to college anymore to get in, the financial barriers of entry for tech are extremely low. That is not to say racism is not a problem in tech, but it is by far a pipeline problem by a huge margin. As a member of a minority who has experienced a lot of racism, I will say that for tech specifically, the racism/sexism problem is overblown. If you don't trust my anecdotal experience then google which race has the highest average income in the United States: Asians.
- DSingularity 6y ago
  It can be difficult to “put in the effort” when most of your energy is spent to survive. Not everyone enjoys the luxury of being able to focus on school and extra curriculars from 14-22.
  - s5300 6y ago
    Hmm... maybe my view is skewed coming from extreme poverty, but shouldn't >Not everyone enjoys the luxury of being able to focus on school and extra curriculars from 14-22. Be "Most people don't get to enjoy the luxury of being able to focus on school and extra curriculars from 14-22." ?
    - FeepingCreature 6y ago
dgudkov 6y ago
>Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. What about immigrants that arrived to the US with a suitcase and $100 in pocket?
- dangus 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Who in the last generation or two has arrived to the US in that romanticized Ellis Island kind of way and not on an H1B? I have the answer: extremely poor non-white immigrants who are also not getting hired at tech companies, and are also facing issues with the system, whether it be difficulty with gaining legal status or cultural acceptance or something else (like, perhaps, being demonized and dehumanized in popular culture by a certain political party, and a president who explicitly asked for European immigrants rather than ones from “shithole countries” [1]). This might be perfectly “okay” for a country without an immigrant heritage and as a result an understandably homogenous population, but for one that celebrates an immigrant heritage it’s hypocritical to not be welcoming, inclusive, and most importantly invest in immigrants with equal education and career opportunities that lead to overall economic expansion. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-shithole-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/2018/01/11/bfc0725c-f711-11e7-91af-31ac729add94_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protec...
- elvongray 6y ago
  You really can't compare the two cases. When you're born into that type of system, where your skin color is seen as less desirable, it's easy to develop inferiority complex and a lot of insecurities that will hinder ones will to reach for the top. I'm from a third world country where a lot of emigrants to the US tend to be more successful than the average Black American. It is easy to jump to the conclusion that they are lazy and all, but I have come to realize that we were not born or have parents that have been demoralised by the systemic racism common in the US
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
piokoch 6y ago
I've checked wikipedia and it seems that affirmative action that was designed to remove all those inequalities was introduced something like 30 years ago, so one generation lives in the environment without discrimination. Has this affirmative action failed? For at least 10 years all big companies have "equality & inclusivity" departments that are taking care of giving equal opportunities to "oppressed minorities" members. Is that just PR or something substantial?
- coldtea 6y ago
  >I've checked wikipedia and it seems that affirmative action that was designed to remove all those inequalities was introduced something like 30 years ago, so one generation lives in the environment without discrimination. The conclusion ("one generation lives in the environment without discrimination") doesn't come from the premise (that affirmative action was introduced 30 years ago). Yes, affirmative action was introduced 30 years ago. But it hardly put an end to discrimination (among other reasons, because even if affirmative action was great, well applied and totally effective, discrimination is not constrained in the domains that affirmative action affects).
- im3w1l 6y ago
  These equality & inclusivity departments do work. Not by including minorities mind you. They work by excluding white people, making them feel unwelcome by constantly reminding them how everything bad in the world is their fault, and firing them when twitter demands it.
  - blahbhthrow3748 6y ago
    Even if this is true (I don't think they have that much power), why do you think this is what minorities would want? They don't want to be treated as equals and have opportunities, they want to make white people feel bad? The issue is that D&I had no power to do things that actually matter. I've complained to D&I teams before and they really exist to placate people internally because leadership will never change. When something gets out that seems like a bad PR problem ("twitter"), then the leadership team will take acute action and fire someone and pin it on inclusion. It's a bad system for everyone but it's born out of cyclical system where white people do nothing about racism until it reaches some breaking point, then they insist on taking immediate action to "fix it" for a month, then they go back to the same old.
mc32 6y ago
If like the army, companies were forced by need to develop pipelines, things would improve. But, if you can hire from abroad and short circuit the hard work necessary, what choice do you think companies are going to make? This is not particular to companies either. People most affected by offshoring will support offshoring by buying cheap goods produced by offshored work ensuring a positive feedback loop that will come and get them. If companies were forced to develop local talent because they cannot short circuit the labor market, they would.
SkyBelow 6y ago
>Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. Poverty discriminates in myriad ways: >Lastly, I suspect the beef some poorer whites have is that they too have been discriminated against due to poverty and they feel that another group now has a leg up on them and that discrimination against them isn't acknowledged. What is needed is to break down issues caused by racism from issues caused by poverty and fix each on their own. Fixing an issue caused by poverty (which itself may be a result of racism) as instead having been caused by racism means the solution is not correctly targeted. If we target the problems caused by poverty based on poverty instead, you would have a solution that will help minorities more as they need more help, but at the same time help non-minorities who are in poverty and prevent resentment from building that ends up harming the attempts to fix those inequalities. For issues directly caused by racism, solutions would be based on race (but race should likely be replaced by race and ethnicity, as I've personally seen racial equality initiatives forget that Hispanic whites face injustice very similar to racial minorities, despite the technicality of being racially white. Last, fixing issues of race, class, and gender (which I haven't mentioned but which should work the same) discrimination should be seen as the starting point, not the goal. These are the big three that cause people the most discrimination, but are not the only three. As they are big three, they should have priority, but others shouldn't be forgotten. For example, discrimination based on LGBT+, on disability, on looks, on height, on neurotypicalness, and other factors still exist in our society: in private life, school life, and professional life. The goal should be that once the inequality from discrimination on the big three are reduced to the size of the level of discrimination these other factors cause, they too become a focus (and to be more pedantic, it wouldn't occur all at once as these other issues are by no means equal, such as LGBT+ discrimination being one of the largest forms of discrimination once you take race/gender/class out of the comparison).
- babesh 6y ago
  I think understanding each issue makes sense. Then you can trace each issue into their side effects. It’s possible that the issues have a common side effect that can be addressed with a single solution. For example, unequal understanding of career possibilities is a common side effect. I had a favorite class in middle school where a professional (in my case an accountant) would come to our class every two weeks to teach us about their profession. I think many more members of the tech community should do the same. Furthermore, they should serve as ongoing contacts for the kids such as providing opportunities for internship, for tech presentations, etc... We need to do this not just for the urban poor but increasingly for the rural poor as well.

by babesh 6y ago

hnarn 6y ago

> Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. Poverty discriminates in myriad ways: lack of good role models and mentors, poor educational environments, lack of nutrition, lack of opportunities for enrichment, etc... While this is true in some cases, and you do point out that "discriminiation is also still present", I can strongly recommend "Reflecting on the Color of My Skin" by Marques Brownlee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_WXXVye3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_WXXVye3Y Regardless of the material differences between black and white people, I think white people (including myself) tend to underestimate the effect of constantly being treated as "the first black guy who..." -- that's racism too, and while not always toxic, it holds up a lot of other discriminatory practices by being the foundation of differentiation.

babesh 6y ago
I have already seen that video. I think not having a first doesn’t have to be discriminatory. The courage to not be dissuaded by that is actually a positive character trait. See this interview https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI 18 minutes in. He was short and was failing out of spacewalk training so he figured out a way to make it work.
- hnarn 6y ago
  >I think not having a first doesn’t have to be discriminatory What do you mean by this more specifically? If you're a part of a minority with a history of oppression, which I hope we can all agree is true for black people in the US, are you saying there's zero things questionable about constantly pointing out that someone is black when they enter a "typically white" area of sports or other activity? I have always taken for granted that the definition of "racism" is not necessarily the same as "hating someone due to their race", but more generally "defining someone primarily by their race in a situation that does not call for it and only secondly by individual attributes". Examples of where it may be "called for" is obviously up for debate, could be highly relevant in medical trials for example.
  - babesh 6y ago
    I mean that there are two groups of people involved. The first is the person or people who is/are potentially the first of a particular ethnic group to achieve a position. If you are that person or people, you will need courage to not let that dissuade you. I don’t see any discrimination there. If you are dissuaded because there is no one before you, then you need more determination because for most people bad things happen in life and you need to deal with it. The second is everyone else. It would be discriminatory if others defined the first by their race in that situation. But that discrimination doesn’t necessarily happen.
mrtksn 6y ago
It's little bit like the tragedy of the rich people's kids: No matter how brilliant you are, many people would simply assume that you have been given the easy route thanks to daddy. Surely it is annoying and may make achievers to prove themselves over and over again, I don't think that it is big enough of an issue to dismiss programs that are designed to tackle real issues in the society. It's just that people should know where to stop and don't try to implement these in communities where less than perfect but good-enough status is achieved.

leafboi 6y ago

As a male Asian American I have been attacked by the system from both a discrimination standpoint, a biased standpoint and a class elitism standpoint. Where I stand right now even my own race, asian females prefer to date white males over their own race. If you don't believe me watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ8LzkIfmxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ8LzkIfmxw. That's just one aspect of the extent of racism we suffer from. It's so bad that females of our own race are disgusted with males of the same race. I've seen a lot of racism, I've had to battle a lot of the challenges of simply being an asian in a white dominated country, my parents had an even harder time with the language barrier when they first jumped off the boat with literally a dollar in their pocket. Despite all of this, from my own personal experience I will say this: The lack of diversity in tech is mostly a pipeline problem. Certain races or cultures or sexes simply don't want to go into tech or aren't willing to put in the effort. You don't even need to go to college anymore to get in, the financial barriers of entry for tech are extremely low. That is not to say racism is not a problem in tech, but it is by far a pipeline problem by a huge margin. As a member of a minority who has experienced a lot of racism, I will say that for tech specifically, the racism/sexism problem is overblown. If you don't trust my anecdotal experience then google which race has the highest average income in the United States: Asians.

DSingularity 6y ago
It can be difficult to “put in the effort” when most of your energy is spent to survive. Not everyone enjoys the luxury of being able to focus on school and extra curriculars from 14-22.
- s5300 6y ago
  Hmm... maybe my view is skewed coming from extreme poverty, but shouldn't >Not everyone enjoys the luxury of being able to focus on school and extra curriculars from 14-22. Be "Most people don't get to enjoy the luxury of being able to focus on school and extra curriculars from 14-22." ?
  - FeepingCreature 6y ago

dgudkov 6y ago

>Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. What about immigrants that arrived to the US with a suitcase and $100 in pocket?

dangus 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Who in the last generation or two has arrived to the US in that romanticized Ellis Island kind of way and not on an H1B? I have the answer: extremely poor non-white immigrants who are also not getting hired at tech companies, and are also facing issues with the system, whether it be difficulty with gaining legal status or cultural acceptance or something else (like, perhaps, being demonized and dehumanized in popular culture by a certain political party, and a president who explicitly asked for European immigrants rather than ones from “shithole countries” [1]). This might be perfectly “okay” for a country without an immigrant heritage and as a result an understandably homogenous population, but for one that celebrates an immigrant heritage it’s hypocritical to not be welcoming, inclusive, and most importantly invest in immigrants with equal education and career opportunities that lead to overall economic expansion. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-shithole-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/2018/01/11/bfc0725c-f711-11e7-91af-31ac729add94_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protec...
elvongray 6y ago
You really can't compare the two cases. When you're born into that type of system, where your skin color is seen as less desirable, it's easy to develop inferiority complex and a lot of insecurities that will hinder ones will to reach for the top. I'm from a third world country where a lot of emigrants to the US tend to be more successful than the average Black American. It is easy to jump to the conclusion that they are lazy and all, but I have come to realize that we were not born or have parents that have been demoralised by the systemic racism common in the US
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

piokoch 6y ago

I've checked wikipedia and it seems that affirmative action that was designed to remove all those inequalities was introduced something like 30 years ago, so one generation lives in the environment without discrimination. Has this affirmative action failed? For at least 10 years all big companies have "equality & inclusivity" departments that are taking care of giving equal opportunities to "oppressed minorities" members. Is that just PR or something substantial?

coldtea 6y ago
>I've checked wikipedia and it seems that affirmative action that was designed to remove all those inequalities was introduced something like 30 years ago, so one generation lives in the environment without discrimination. The conclusion ("one generation lives in the environment without discrimination") doesn't come from the premise (that affirmative action was introduced 30 years ago). Yes, affirmative action was introduced 30 years ago. But it hardly put an end to discrimination (among other reasons, because even if affirmative action was great, well applied and totally effective, discrimination is not constrained in the domains that affirmative action affects).
im3w1l 6y ago
These equality & inclusivity departments do work. Not by including minorities mind you. They work by excluding white people, making them feel unwelcome by constantly reminding them how everything bad in the world is their fault, and firing them when twitter demands it.
- blahbhthrow3748 6y ago
  Even if this is true (I don't think they have that much power), why do you think this is what minorities would want? They don't want to be treated as equals and have opportunities, they want to make white people feel bad? The issue is that D&I had no power to do things that actually matter. I've complained to D&I teams before and they really exist to placate people internally because leadership will never change. When something gets out that seems like a bad PR problem ("twitter"), then the leadership team will take acute action and fire someone and pin it on inclusion. It's a bad system for everyone but it's born out of cyclical system where white people do nothing about racism until it reaches some breaking point, then they insist on taking immediate action to "fix it" for a month, then they go back to the same old.

mc32 6y ago

If like the army, companies were forced by need to develop pipelines, things would improve. But, if you can hire from abroad and short circuit the hard work necessary, what choice do you think companies are going to make? This is not particular to companies either. People most affected by offshoring will support offshoring by buying cheap goods produced by offshored work ensuring a positive feedback loop that will come and get them. If companies were forced to develop local talent because they cannot short circuit the labor market, they would.

SkyBelow 6y ago

>Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. Poverty discriminates in myriad ways: >Lastly, I suspect the beef some poorer whites have is that they too have been discriminated against due to poverty and they feel that another group now has a leg up on them and that discrimination against them isn't acknowledged. What is needed is to break down issues caused by racism from issues caused by poverty and fix each on their own. Fixing an issue caused by poverty (which itself may be a result of racism) as instead having been caused by racism means the solution is not correctly targeted. If we target the problems caused by poverty based on poverty instead, you would have a solution that will help minorities more as they need more help, but at the same time help non-minorities who are in poverty and prevent resentment from building that ends up harming the attempts to fix those inequalities. For issues directly caused by racism, solutions would be based on race (but race should likely be replaced by race and ethnicity, as I've personally seen racial equality initiatives forget that Hispanic whites face injustice very similar to racial minorities, despite the technicality of being racially white. Last, fixing issues of race, class, and gender (which I haven't mentioned but which should work the same) discrimination should be seen as the starting point, not the goal. These are the big three that cause people the most discrimination, but are not the only three. As they are big three, they should have priority, but others shouldn't be forgotten. For example, discrimination based on LGBT+, on disability, on looks, on height, on neurotypicalness, and other factors still exist in our society: in private life, school life, and professional life. The goal should be that once the inequality from discrimination on the big three are reduced to the size of the level of discrimination these other factors cause, they too become a focus (and to be more pedantic, it wouldn't occur all at once as these other issues are by no means equal, such as LGBT+ discrimination being one of the largest forms of discrimination once you take race/gender/class out of the comparison).

babesh 6y ago
I think understanding each issue makes sense. Then you can trace each issue into their side effects. It’s possible that the issues have a common side effect that can be addressed with a single solution. For example, unequal understanding of career possibilities is a common side effect. I had a favorite class in middle school where a professional (in my case an accountant) would come to our class every two weeks to teach us about their profession. I think many more members of the tech community should do the same. Furthermore, they should serve as ongoing contacts for the kids such as providing opportunities for internship, for tech presentations, etc... We need to do this not just for the urban poor but increasingly for the rural poor as well.