5 ms·

> I get why it's important, it just feels poopy. I think it summarizes a lot of office work. We're organized in processes which are efficient and/or necessary

> I get why it's important, it just feels poopy. I think it summarizes a lot of office work. We're organized in processes which are efficient and/or necessary at the scale of the company, but which severely restrict and constrain us, making a lot of us unhappy. For people for whom it's unbearable, there are two options: either join a small company or just check out completely, treat your job as some bullshit that brings you good money, be glad you're not cleaning toilets for 20% of your pay, and try to find fullfilment outside of work hours.

sneak 6y ago
> be glad you're not cleaning toilets for 20% of your pay Be advised: If you are programming computers in 2020 and making only 5x what a toilet cleaner makes, you are approximately 100% underpaid.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  I don't feel like the multiples of a toilet cleaner's wage should be a measurement system since it mostly shows income inequality. For example in Sweden and most of Europe, most devs only make 2x-3x NET of what the toilet cleaner makes. Not only because we're underpaid(which I hate) but the toilet cleaners tend to be paid fairly(which I like). In places with high inequality like South Africa, Latin America, Eastern Europe, the USA, a SW dev is expected to make multiples of low-end blue collar wages.
  - sneak 6y ago
    > For example in Sweden and most of Europe, most devs only make 2x-3x of what the toilet cleaner makes. Most devs in Europe are massively underpaid, and should work on the internet instead of some local underpaid wage-slave job. There is a shortage of skilled programmers in the world. There’s no reason to remain underpaid other than really, really wanting to work a very specific set of local timezone hours.
    - foldr 6y ago
      You are right about the underpayment, but you're underestimating the challenges of finding good remote working opportunities that pay more. For one thing, why would an American company offer to pay me twice as much as I could make in the UK if I'm in the UK? They only have to offer a little bit more to inceltivize me to take the job.
      - cyberdrunk 6y ago
        > why would an American company offer to pay me twice as much as I could make in the UK if I'm in the UK? They only have to offer a little bit more to inceltivize me to take the job. If they have the money, e.g. they're a large corp or a startup with VC money to burn, they tend to not watch costs that closely and it should not be a problem. I've received multiple offers for six-figure remote jobs in the US (I'm from Eastern Europe) and so far only one offer for less than $100k - that one offer was from a small, profitable self-funded startup. OTOH, if you're already making say $100k in the UK and want to double it by getting a $200k remote offer, then it's considerably harder. I'm betting it would require a lot of valuable and unique experience in your CV.
        ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        If I may ask, how did you find those six figure remote jobs?
        cyberdrunk 6y ago
        "Who's hiring" thread, here on HN, with one exception, which was IIRC a direct application to their website (it's a known startup that happened to be open to global remote hiring at the time). The common denominator of most of these offers was that they were in expensive US cities and wanted to hire "talent", but, in these locations, it would probably cost over $200k (esp. including health insurance, retirement contribitions etc. which I wasn't offered) to have their pick. So they were happy to offer $120k-$130k to a comparable remote candidate. BTW they also employed people from cheaper areas of the US.
- itsmeamario 6y ago
  Depending where you're based this isn't true. At my country in Europe I could earn 1000€ / month cleaning offices and common Programmer salaries' are 1200 - 1500€ / month
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    Programmers in Europe are underpaid as a group. I moved from London to New York and literally doubled my salary (almost exactly 2x). And London is at the high end for Europe.
    - ipnon 6y ago
      Corollary, toilet cleaners in America are underpaid as a group. I don't want to get into a heated political debate, I just want to suggest an alternative view point that I find compelling when discussing American vs. European software salaries. Don't toilet cleaners in Germany have better lives than toiler cleaners in Kentucky?
  - sneak 6y ago
    My point is that if those are your options, start being “based” on the internet instead of wherever you consider yourself “based” now, because good programmers on the internet are paid €10k+ per month. If you have a lot of experience and a good network, you can easily double that (€20k/mo, €125/hr) as well. Triple that is not out of the question, either. High end specialty researchers are billed at >=$400/hr by large firms.
    - maxnevermind 6y ago
      US employers are very reluctant to hire remote devs from Europe imo. As soon as they hear you are from Europe the dialog is over.
      - sneak 6y ago
        So don’t mention where you are? As long as you don’t have a window in frame, work the same timezone hours, and have decent internet, I think you can sidestep this issue. That said, I don’t think this is as big a blocker as you seem to think. It’s a different issue in the sales process.
- baq 6y ago
  or maybe programmers are overpaid...
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    Supply and demand.
  - bdavisx 6y ago
    In the U.S., it's much more likely that the custodians/janitors are getting underpaid.
    - sneak 6y ago
      If they were underpaid, they’d go work somewhere else they are not. There is a near unlimited supply of mop-pushers in the world.
      - stnmtn 6y ago
        What if every place where they live is paying them around the same rate? Should every person be expected to move and uproot their life to find a job that pays them enough to live on?
        stainforth 6y ago
        Some ideologies construct an imaginary world with its own rules and and perfect ethical actors and then ignore that it does not map to reality.
      - elijahwright 6y ago
        I learned at a previous job that one of the biggest challenges in janitorial-services is the insane rate of turnover and difficulty in guaranteeing that a particular floor of a building has been serviced on a particular night...
      - triceratops 6y ago
        US janitors can't go work in Sweden, where janitors are paid more fairly.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  You're only underpaid if the company couldn't replace you for the same pay. In many parts of the world it's not a problem to find good and experienced engineers/devs for 5x the minimum salary.

sneak 6y ago

> be glad you're not cleaning toilets for 20% of your pay Be advised: If you are programming computers in 2020 and making only 5x what a toilet cleaner makes, you are approximately 100% underpaid.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
I don't feel like the multiples of a toilet cleaner's wage should be a measurement system since it mostly shows income inequality. For example in Sweden and most of Europe, most devs only make 2x-3x NET of what the toilet cleaner makes. Not only because we're underpaid(which I hate) but the toilet cleaners tend to be paid fairly(which I like). In places with high inequality like South Africa, Latin America, Eastern Europe, the USA, a SW dev is expected to make multiples of low-end blue collar wages.
- sneak 6y ago
  > For example in Sweden and most of Europe, most devs only make 2x-3x of what the toilet cleaner makes. Most devs in Europe are massively underpaid, and should work on the internet instead of some local underpaid wage-slave job. There is a shortage of skilled programmers in the world. There’s no reason to remain underpaid other than really, really wanting to work a very specific set of local timezone hours.
  - foldr 6y ago
    You are right about the underpayment, but you're underestimating the challenges of finding good remote working opportunities that pay more. For one thing, why would an American company offer to pay me twice as much as I could make in the UK if I'm in the UK? They only have to offer a little bit more to inceltivize me to take the job.
    - cyberdrunk 6y ago
      > why would an American company offer to pay me twice as much as I could make in the UK if I'm in the UK? They only have to offer a little bit more to inceltivize me to take the job. If they have the money, e.g. they're a large corp or a startup with VC money to burn, they tend to not watch costs that closely and it should not be a problem. I've received multiple offers for six-figure remote jobs in the US (I'm from Eastern Europe) and so far only one offer for less than $100k - that one offer was from a small, profitable self-funded startup. OTOH, if you're already making say $100k in the UK and want to double it by getting a $200k remote offer, then it's considerably harder. I'm betting it would require a lot of valuable and unique experience in your CV.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        If I may ask, how did you find those six figure remote jobs?
        cyberdrunk 6y ago
        "Who's hiring" thread, here on HN, with one exception, which was IIRC a direct application to their website (it's a known startup that happened to be open to global remote hiring at the time). The common denominator of most of these offers was that they were in expensive US cities and wanted to hire "talent", but, in these locations, it would probably cost over $200k (esp. including health insurance, retirement contribitions etc. which I wasn't offered) to have their pick. So they were happy to offer $120k-$130k to a comparable remote candidate. BTW they also employed people from cheaper areas of the US.
itsmeamario 6y ago
Depending where you're based this isn't true. At my country in Europe I could earn 1000€ / month cleaning offices and common Programmer salaries' are 1200 - 1500€ / month
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  Programmers in Europe are underpaid as a group. I moved from London to New York and literally doubled my salary (almost exactly 2x). And London is at the high end for Europe.
  - ipnon 6y ago
    Corollary, toilet cleaners in America are underpaid as a group. I don't want to get into a heated political debate, I just want to suggest an alternative view point that I find compelling when discussing American vs. European software salaries. Don't toilet cleaners in Germany have better lives than toiler cleaners in Kentucky?
- sneak 6y ago
  My point is that if those are your options, start being “based” on the internet instead of wherever you consider yourself “based” now, because good programmers on the internet are paid €10k+ per month. If you have a lot of experience and a good network, you can easily double that (€20k/mo, €125/hr) as well. Triple that is not out of the question, either. High end specialty researchers are billed at >=$400/hr by large firms.
  - maxnevermind 6y ago
    US employers are very reluctant to hire remote devs from Europe imo. As soon as they hear you are from Europe the dialog is over.
    - sneak 6y ago
      So don’t mention where you are? As long as you don’t have a window in frame, work the same timezone hours, and have decent internet, I think you can sidestep this issue. That said, I don’t think this is as big a blocker as you seem to think. It’s a different issue in the sales process.
baq 6y ago
or maybe programmers are overpaid...
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  Supply and demand.
- bdavisx 6y ago
  In the U.S., it's much more likely that the custodians/janitors are getting underpaid.
  - sneak 6y ago
    If they were underpaid, they’d go work somewhere else they are not. There is a near unlimited supply of mop-pushers in the world.
    - stnmtn 6y ago
      What if every place where they live is paying them around the same rate? Should every person be expected to move and uproot their life to find a job that pays them enough to live on?
      - stainforth 6y ago
        Some ideologies construct an imaginary world with its own rules and and perfect ethical actors and then ignore that it does not map to reality.
    - elijahwright 6y ago
      I learned at a previous job that one of the biggest challenges in janitorial-services is the insane rate of turnover and difficulty in guaranteeing that a particular floor of a building has been serviced on a particular night...
    - triceratops 6y ago
      US janitors can't go work in Sweden, where janitors are paid more fairly.
benhurmarcel 6y ago
You're only underpaid if the company couldn't replace you for the same pay. In many parts of the world it's not a problem to find good and experienced engineers/devs for 5x the minimum salary.