9 ms·
Joscha Bach: Artificial Consciousness and the Nature of Reality [video]
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- uxcolumbo 6y agoWhat a coincidence - I was just watching this month old interview a few hours before it was posted here. Maybe Youtube's algo is pushing it... Anyway, the way Joscha explained various concepts was very interesting - the phrases he used kept me hooked. At the very least it's entertaining. For example: "Social media is the world's brain hooked on dopamine - creating a permanent seizure" "Entropic Abyss" "Closed Cooling Chain" Interesting guy with an interesting upbringing (grew up in Eastern Germany - his site http://bach.ai http://bach.ai). It's a long interview - but here is the breakdown of topics being discussed (time stamps taken from the comments section) 0:00 - Introduction 3:14 - Reverse engineering Joscha Bach 10:38 - Nature of truth 18:47 - Original thinking 23:14 - Sentience vs intelligence 31:45 - Mind vs Reality 46:51 - Hard problem of consciousness 51:09 - Connection between the mind and the universe 56:29 - What is consciousness 1:02:32 - Language and concepts 1:09:02 - Meta-learning 1:16:35 - Spirit 1:18:10 - Our civilization may not exist for long 1:37:48 - Twitter and social media 1:44:52 - What systems of government might work well? 1:47:12 - The way out of self-destruction with AI 1:55:18 - AI simulating humans to understand its own nature 2:04:32 - Reinforcement learning 2:09:12 - Commonsense reasoning 2:15:47 - Would AGI need to have a body? 2:22:34 - Neuralink 2:27:01 - Reasoning at the scale of neurons and societies 2:37:16 - Role of emotion 2:48:03 - Happiness is a cookie that your brain bakes for itself EDIT: clarity
- agigao 6y agoThank you!
- 08-15 6y agoI noticed the same thing and had the opposite reaction. "Social media is the world's brain hooked on dopamine - creating a permanent seizure" Wow, what an insightful statement! Except it isn't. It's not even a statement. It's just different metaphors piled on top of each other until they nothing at all anymore. "Entropic Abyss" Lex Fridman actually asked for clarification here, but none came. Joscha fixed the mispronunciation, that's all. The phrase is completely meaningless. "Closed Cooling Chain" And that one is a bad translation from German "geschlossene Kuehlkette", meaning that your convenience food is frozen once at the factory and never warms up until it's in your microwave oven. It translates to "uninterrupted", not "closed". I'm pretty disappointed by the onslaught of empty phrases and the dearth of insight or arguments.
- uxcolumbo 6y agoThat social media statement - doesn't necessarily have to be super insightful. The mental image triggered by that sentence is funny and there is some truth to it. > "Entropic Abyss" ... The phrase is completely meaningless. Well, it wasn't meaningless to the interviewer - he actually found it poetic. And for me it triggered an interesting mental image. > bad translation from German... It translates to "uninterrupted", not "closed". I just looked up the words. 'Geschlossene' comes from schliessen, which means to close. Uninterrupted in German seems to be 'ununterbrochen'. So Closed Cooling Chain actually seems to be a good translation and it nicely rolls off the tongue - CCC. > I'm pretty disappointed by the onslaught of empty phrases and the dearth of insight or arguments. I realized some might not get much out of it - hence why I said that at the very least Joscha is entertaining to listen to (subjective - I know). I got something out of it - what Joscha says makes me think - even if at the end I won't get enlightened, I look forward to check out his other work.
- 08-15 6y ago> The mental image triggered by that sentence is funny and there is some truth to it. Sure, but funny isn't insightful. > I just looked up the words. Words from one language don't map perfectly to those of another; idioms map even less well. Are you seriously trying to lecture me about idioms in my native tongue, German? Which happens to be Joscha's native tongue, too, which is probably the reason why some of his phrases sound insightful to you and like bad translations to me. Another example: "A spirit is an operating system a brain runs on." Apparently he tried to translate German "Geist", which could be "spirit", "ghost", or "mind". The appropriate translation is "mind", then it makes sense. The mistranslation to "spirit" makes it sound profound, unless you take the time to think about it. But you can't, because Joscha talks so fast.
- uxcolumbo 6y ago> Sure, but funny isn't insightful. Is that an established and commonly understood fact? To me anything that provides some understanding to a complicated matter or situation can be insightful - even funny things. What isn't insightful to you might be insightful to others. Don't forget not everyone is at the same level of understanding. > Closed Cooling Chain vs Uninterrupted Cooling Chain When he says 'Closed' - it implies that it's uninterrupted. Have you ever heard of the term 'Closed Circuit'? Same thing. I prefer his translation. It's simpler and sounds better (to me). > Apparently he tried to translate German "Geist", which could be "spirit", "ghost", or "mind" Interesting. Did he use 'Geist' originally in his German presentation? If he meant mind - why didn't he use the German word 'Verstand' - which seems to be a more accurate translation for mind. But you tell me, as this is your native tongue. Maybe he wants to add some colour to his talks? If so, then I think spirit is totally fine to me. It doesn't make it sound anymore profound. I would say it makes it more interesting. And maybe the other reason why he used the word spirit and not mind, might be to cater to a certain audience, e.g. the viewers for the chaos computer club videos might appreciate sci-fi like Ghost in the Shell. You wouldn't say Mind in the Shell. Sounds dry and boring (to me). But spirit has a more positive connotation vs Ghost - another reason why he might have chosen that word in the quote you mentioned. Joscha seems to have a knack for this - explaining things in a simple, interesting and entertaining way. Just look at all the comments on the various videos he appears in. You might already have a deep understanding of the topics he talks about, but not everyone has.
- ExcavateGrandMa 6y agoThe day a machine is gonna try to have a conversation with me I'm gonna smash it the concrete way! keep dreaming about the perfect creature/slave/SEXBOT :D
- dane-pgp 6y agoELIZA: That is interesting. Please continue.
- ExcavateGrandMa 6y agoELIZA??? all been already said... humanity isn't complex just ashamed by its own moves :D and yea we are speaking about consciousnesss OH MY HEAD... That's too much for me, can't comment much... but keep doing I'm watching... and guess what it's fun! :D
- mrmonkeyman 6y agoYou are just a memory of an AI trying to understand itself.
- maze-le 6y agoHe is definitely one of the most interesting people to listen to when it comes to AI, Intelligence and Philosophy. I've seen him in Leipzig on CCC events in the past, here are some of his other talks: * Computational Meta-Intelligence (32C3): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRdJCFEqFTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRdJCFEqFTU * Machine Dreams (33C3): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5nJ5l6dl2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5nJ5l6dl2s * The Ghost in the Machine (35C3): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3K5UxWRRuY&t=2516s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3K5UxWRRuY&t=2516s He also did a very interesting podcast episode with Fefe and Frank from alternativlos! (in German): https://alternativlos.org/42/ https://alternativlos.org/42/
- pantalaimon 6y agoI'm happy to get my annual Joscha Bach fix seeing that CCC is probably cancelled this year. His talks are always a firehose of fresh ideas and new combinations of known concepts. All of his previous talks can be found at https://media.ccc.de/search?p=Joscha https://media.ccc.de/search?p=Joscha
- andybak 6y agoI can't absorb complex ideas very well from speech. Any good links for written materials that offer good bite-sized introductions to his ideas?
- moobsen 6y agoI'd recommending digging through his website: http://bach.ai/ http://bach.ai/ Depending on what interests you, maybe also look at the abstracts of his research papers? http://bach.ai/publications/ http://bach.ai/publications/
- andybak 6y agoThanks. His tweeter feed is quite interesting also (which gives you some indication of my attention span at the moment)
- alexshortt 6y agoI really love his emphasis on modelling as a skill. Its obviously great applied to technical skills like computer science, but he seems to apply it to everything else in the human experience so well. "everything that we sense is part of the same object ... we learn it all into one model ... we call this model the universe" https://youtu.be/P-2P3MSZrBM?t=1796 https://youtu.be/P-2P3MSZrBM?t=1796
- arethuza 6y agoReminds me of "the world is its own best model" and the subsumption architecture of Rodney Brooks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsumption_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsumption_architecture
- callesgg 6y agoEverything is a model. The only thing that exists to the mind And actually in the world is models.
- jmiskovic 6y agoI was quite intrigued by semi-proposal of building a meta social network (it starts around 1:37:45). He proposes a service where anyone can start a social network using any features of existing ones (Facebook feed, Twitter conversation, Reddit threads...), with each network cultivating its own rules and reward function (criteria for what content is reshared or upvoted). On one hand it's over-ambitious and doomed to fail, and yet it could lead to more coherent and constructive hive mind.
- yetihehe 6y ago> with each network cultivating its own rules and reward function (criteria for what content is reshared or upvoted). Yeah, that sounds like trying to evolve even more addicting social networks. Those networks which are more rewarding will have more users, regardless if they are good or bad in long term.
- cblconfederate 6y agoIt has been tried so many times -- evolving variations of social networks. The end result is facebook bought them all. It's what we call survival of the richest.
- rnd_74367843 6y agoI tried to do that 10 years ago. Didn't gain traction. Too complex an idea for most to want http://babblingbrook.net/ http://babblingbrook.net/
- cosmojg 6y agoIsn't that kinda what's already unfolding with ActivityPub? You've got Friendica for Facebook, Mastodon and Pleroma for Twitter, Lemmy for Reddit, WriteFreely and Plume for Medium, Funkwhale for SoundCloud, Peertube for YouTube, Pixelfed for Instagram, and so much more[1]! Not only can anyone spin up their own instance of any one or more of these services with whatever rules and customs they want, but all of these different services can talk to each other since they're all built on the same underlying protocol. It's cool stuff, and it's already happening today! [1] https://fediverse.party/en/miscellaneous https://fediverse.party/en/miscellaneous
- jagrsw 6y agoI've seen the interview in June, and was following Joscha's twitter feed since. Although a lot of good stuff, some of his views are a bit perplexing: * If his offspring would turn homosexual, he'd be sad about them being "evolutionary dead-end" (tho, he'd still support them in any way possible) - cannot find the tweet now, he probably deleted it * He expresses a dim view of US' future (its institutions) esp. in the light of current events. It's sometimes visible in his tweets and speeches. But he's so vague in his predictions, that 10 years down the road I wouldn't be able to tell if he have been right or wrong no matter what the situation will be tangent point: the company he currently works for - AI Foundation - had some deal/interaction with our dear Deepak Chopra - who is as anti-intellectual as a public persona can be - so my question is 'why' - tho this could be before Joscha's tenure there... but still it feels bad (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20191205005164/en/Deepak-Chopra-AI-Foundation-Partner-Bring-Personal https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20191205005164/en/Dee...) (https://aifoundation.com/author/lars_butler/ https://aifoundation.com/author/lars_butler/) But he loves Stanislaw Lem, and according to the interview he was the first author that he felt was worth reading his books had profound impact on him when he was young, so that's nice, b/c Lem is a genius - who is also a bit underrated in the western world - as opposed to the former eastern block :)
- throwaway69123 6y agoWhy do you find him expressing sadness about him not being able to pass on his genetics, perplexing? Its a primal evolutionary imperative. While possible the rate of child having is very low in same sex relationships in comparrison to the hetro relationships is higher.
- jagrsw 6y agoMostly because he the object which creates the ideas and interacting with us is not his genes/body/brain but on the most abstract level it's his neural system, and the imperative you're talking about is imposed by his genes on his neural system (via brain wiring + hormones). Since Joscha says that being adult means taking control of your emotions (I guess, to a point), so they serve your goals, and you're not at their whim, I wonder why he succumbs so easily to this specific emotion. Since having offspring has nothing to do with goals of his neural system (say... discovering the nature, advancing knowledge, exchanging ideas). Goals of your genes != goals of your neural system (brain), and for the purpose of this conversation you are for me the latter.
- NotUsingLinux 6y agoThank you for sharing! Great interview and perspectives
- deeplearning0 6y agodo they discuss also AI ethics? Wondering about funding ethics for research ...
- magnusmagnusson 6y agoAI 'ethics' is how you get China dominating AI research eventually. All these OpenAI spooks are either doing it intentionally or accidentally and at stake like this, what does it matter when the end result is a convincing loss.
- yboris 6y agoI think you misunderstand what AI ethics is. Do you want facial recognition cameras on every street? That's what no ethics oversight gets you.
- antepodius 6y agoEthics oversight won't stop there, though. The managerial class will seek to keep expanding it more and more, with increasingly arcane and insulting restrictions. And is the research level the right place to stop that? I don't think so. That's a policy question.
- yboris 6y agoThere's a lovely analogy I like: driving fast. New technology is like putting more weight on the gas pedal. Until we learn to handle the current problems, accelerating isn't a guaranteed solution. We may be able to swerve out of the oncoming problem, but now we're going event faster. We now have technology that can end human civilization (aka "existential risk"). What is the harm in going slower? Especially compared to the harm of going faster.
- antepodius 6y agoIt's a coordination problem. Sure, you could slow down, and then the chinese will just outcompete you/spawn a paperclip maximiser- or, in general, a less scrupulous competitor will. You'd have to get all sides to agree on an actually effective treaty.
- motohagiography 6y agoI'm such a fan after the 33C3 Machine Dreams talk. The podcast host, either he has a way of speaking that seems affectedly slow, or maybe he has a speech impediment or neurological issue? Ordinarily I would just set the speed of the video up, but Bach's normal speed of speech becomes too fast. A few minutes in, the host seems to adapt to his guests speed a bit, but is there some kind of trend among millennials to do some weird slo-mo lazy talking pace? Bach seems to sense it as well and interrupts him when he starts to wind up his mental drone.
- therufa 6y agoHis first language is Russian, but grew up in the US. From first hand experience as a person who grew up in a household with two completely different languages, this seems to come from having trouble of finding the right language to speak in for a little time until I can finally settle in on a language which makes most sense. This or something absolutely different.
- motohagiography 6y agoIt would be surprising if it were a language issue, given Bach speaks accented english much more rapidly than the host speaking mostly unaccented english. It seems received or an personality/attitude thing, or maybe it's a substance use issue. Anyway, Bach is interesting enough I'm putting up with it, but I rarely feel so irritated and resentful of a person, so if someone else is repelled by it, stick with the podcast as Bach makes it worth while.
- logarhythmic 6y agoIt doesn't really bother me, but for what it's worth, the host (Lex Fridman) has stated that it's simply the way he speaks as a result of his brain trying to choose what thread to follow and what to say
- motohagiography 6y agoLex's comment toward the end that lawyers are the substrate of reality won me over. That's hilarious. Was distracted by his mien, but funny justifies all.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- masterproc 6y agoFYI, Bach accepted money by Epstein after conviction. To me, someone who does not help Science, MIT and Harvard in fact finding about money by a convicted sex offender, is maybe not the best to read the future. Sources: “The researcher Minsky had flagged for Epstein, Joscha Bach, declined repeated requests from me to discuss his ties to Epstein. But a 2018 paper on his theory of consciousness acknowledges support from the Jeffrey Epstein Foundation, and Bach has been listed in media tallies of Epstein grantees.” Science, At https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/09/what-kind-researcher-did-sex-offender-jeffrey-epstein-fund-he-told-science-he-died https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/09/what-kind-researcher... “From 2014 to 2016, Bach’s primary affiliation was with MIT’s Media Lab. Harvard never paid Bach or provided funds to support his research, and no funds donated to Harvard supported Bach’s work. We understand that in 2014 and 2015, Bach’s work at MIT received fi- nancial support from Epstein.” (...) “Though Harvard never paid Bach, PED’s website listed Bach as a PED research scientist beginning in 2014. We understand that Bach left MIT in 2016, but PED continued to list him as a PED research scientist until 2019. During that time, Nowak continued to give Bach access to office space at PED, which he used intermittently, and Bach often met with Epstein at PED when Epstein visited. PED has no records of Bach’s executing a Visitor Participation Agreement. Bach did not respond to our voice mail or email asking to speak with him, and we were unable to determine whether Epstein provided financial support to Bach after Bach left MIT and while he was associated with PED.” REPORT CONCERNING JEFFREY E. EPSTEIN’S CONNECTIONS TO HARVARD UNIVERSITY. At https://ogc.harvard.edu/files/ogc/files/report_concerning_jeffrey_e._epsteins_connections_to_harvard_university.pdf https://ogc.harvard.edu/files/ogc/files/report_concerning_je... “Epstein’s $100,000 donation in May 2013 was intended to be used at Ito’s discretion. His donations in November 2013 and in July and September 2014, totaling $300,000 (40% of Epstein’s post-conviction donations), were made to support research by Joscha Bach, a former Media Lab research fellow from Germany whom Epstein introduced to Ito in 2013. The Media Lab hired Bach in large part because Epstein subsidized the cost.“ * Bach declined to be interviewed in connection with Goodwin Procter’s fact-finding. REPORT CONCERNING JEFFREY EPSTEIN’S INTERACTIONS WITH THE MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY. At http://factfindingjan2020.mit.edu/files/MIT-report.pdf?200117 http://factfindingjan2020.mit.edu/files/MIT-report.pdf?20011...