19 ms·
Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence
- pmoriarty 6y agoThis article echoes another recent article[1], which has more details. [1] - https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/n7w4w8/trump-sent-the-feds-to-portland-and-theyre-kidnapping-people-off-the-streets https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/n7w4w8/trump-sent-the-fed...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- solidsnack9000 6y agoNot sure why they are saying the detentions are conducted "secretly".
- jacobush 6y agoNobody identifies themselves. Who are they?
- koheripbal 6y agoIt says POLICE right on their uniform
- jacobush 6y agoIt says on my “uniform” too. https://www.amazon.com/TIMTAC-Embroidered-Golden-Yellow-Police/dp/B0854FH5CM/ref=mp_s_a_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=police+patch&qid=1595160633&sr=8-11 https://www.amazon.com/TIMTAC-Embroidered-Golden-Yellow-Poli...
- naringas 6y agomabye the reason (or the ratinale?) for the detention is the secret?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- MengerSponge 6y agoBecause they're being conducted by unidentified agents of the state and there isn't a thorough public record of it. The idiom refers to state records, not to public knowledge or visibility.
- koheripbal 6y agoThe uniform clear says "POLICE" on it.
- kyleee 6y agoAlong with agency patches on the shoulder area
- gguevaraa 6y agoAny lawyers or people familiar with law want to chime in on how this will turn out?
- op03 6y agoIt will turn out the way everything else turns out in the age of fruit fly attention spans and everyone trapped in arms races for that attention - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_race
- throwaway_USD 6y agoThe States should prevail, because under the Constitution the Federal Government does not have police powers and under the 10th Amendment police powers are reserved for the states. Now the limit on the Federal government police powers has eroded slowly (like all limitations on the federal governments power under the constitution), so you could point to the FBI, secret service, ICE/CBP...but if the Federal Government prevails it would be a giant leap in erosion of State rights and limitations on Federal powers. Basically it would be negating the 10th Amendment and authorizing the Federal Government to establish their own police and unilaterally deploy them nationwide. In short the States should prevail based on police power and 10th amendment arguments, but I wouldn't foreclose this being the spark the Federal Government is looking for to gain the police powers they have always wanted. If the Federal Government prevails over the States here, you can anticipate a "commerce clause" argument where the Federal Government will use mental gymnastics to claim State failures to police their States effect interstate commerce, so the Federal Government must have the right to step in with their own police powers and regulate.
- beervirus 6y agoWhen was the last time a 10th amendment argument won the day? Like 200 years ago?
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoLast time I checked, the fed doesn't have policing power, only states do. This is a huge overstep of states rights.
- zajd 6y agoI'm sure this thread will be filled with people condemning the actions of the government/officers just like they do when anyone in China sneezes and not defending this blatant anti-democratic action that flies in the face of our "American values".
- jorblumesea 6y agoIronically, giving ideological ammo to the protestors that the system is rotten to the core and needs to be completely replaced. Unmarked rented vehicles kidnapping protestors that lead to interrogations in a secret offsite location sounds a lot like the Stasi or Nazi germany. No one should be ok with this, ever. Where are the "second amendments against tyranny folks"? Oh, they probably support the police. Nice to see that when democracy is under attack, it's fine if they're just attacking the other side. An alternate sources: https://www.newsweek.com/trump-accused-deploying-secret-police-portland-political-stunt-1518595 https://www.newsweek.com/trump-accused-deploying-secret-poli... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53453077 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53453077 Seems like it's largely to shore up Trump's flagging poll numbers as the hope is that it plays well on Fox News. Feels like a fascist Nixonian "law and order" political calculation but like most Trumpian endeavors it will probably backfire. edit: Let's put this another way. If these were the anti-mask protestors or the anti-lockdown protestors how do you think this would go down? Do you think elements on the right would be okay with this? My feeling is that it would be a shit storm. But because it's happening to "left wing thugs", "looters" and "antifa" it's ok right? Whether you believe these people have committed crimes or not, having secret police round them up is completely unamerican. If they committed crimes, serve up formal arrest warrants, give them their Miranda rights and their day in front of a judge with lawyer representation. Democratic values and human rights only exist for those who political positions we agree with, right? I forgot there was a clause in the constitution that allowed you to just skip articles because it happened to people you don't like /s
- whoseonthat 6y agoIs the sentiment that the system is working or at least improving in the right ways?
- pravus 6y agoWe were told to shut up and put away our guns because these things could never happen...
- jorblumesea 6y agoWell if you don't use it to defend democratic values then I'd say you don't deserve those guns. The 2nd amendment was literally a hedge against these situations but many of those strong believers in the second amendment are conspicuously absent and probably side with the right wing fascist elements. Unfortunately many if not most gun owners seem to be entirely ok with eroding American democratic values and freedom so long as the other side "gets what's coming to them".
- dontcarethrow2 6y agoalright, so who pays when the lawsuit goes through? Taxes? How do we get it from the guilty department's budget?
- DrJokepu 6y agoI’m no lawyer, but the article implies that the purpose of the lawsuit is not to seek compensation but to stop the Federal Government from continuing these operations.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mindslight 6y agoWe're at the point where the larger Republican establishment either needs to repudiate and remove this anti-American wannabe dictator, or they're going to find themselves at the guillotine alongside him. Our society cannot take another 6 months of economic destruction, brazen totalitarianism, and weaponized ignorance.
- kingkawn 6y agoThis behavior is the true face of the larger republican establishment.
- threentaway 6y agoYes. The "conservative, pro small government but only when it benefits me" party.
- itsoktocry 6y ago>or they're going to find themselves at the guillotine alongside him Be careful what you wish for, because the tech overlords and their enablers aren't very far down the list after the politicians.
- mindslight 6y agoI'm not wishing for it. I stated what I'd like to see happen to prevent collapse from occurring.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- koheripbal 6y agoI can't tell if this comment is serious... What makes you think the White House orders these arrests? I would imagine that the local Federal offices are happy to arrest people who attempt to burn down a Federal Court house, and would have done exactly the same under Obama, Clinton, Bush, or Trump.
- thegreyone 6y ago"Journalists"? You mean that antifa lawyer group? Eff them, eff antifa, and I hope they all get what's justifiably coming to em.
- Google234 6y agoMaybe these Portlanders should stop trying to burn down the federal courthouse.
- whatthesmack 6y agoMy thoughts exactly. When they’re being violent and destroying things, does it really come as a surprise that they’re getting arrested?
- LurkersWillLurk 6y agoThis isn't about whether or not they get arrested. This is about certain ground rules and principles that the government must always uphold, even against unprincipled opponents. Federal law enforcement officers, dressed in camo gear and without any identifying insignia, arresting and covering the faces of alleged rioters and stuffing them into unmarked vehicles and taking them God-knows-where is absolutely unacceptable. These principles are what separates the government from the rioters. How are you going to hold the government accountable when you don't even know which government agency a certain police officer belongs to?
- Google234 6y agoI have a feel we know where the rioters are being taken after being arrested. This has been going on for more than a month.
- koheripbal 6y ago
- xenadu02 6y agoSecret police snatching people off the street in unmarked vehicles is 100% police state / gestapo behavior. No one should be OK with it.
- itsoktocry 6y ago>No one should be OK with it. Agreed. And no one should be okay with the police standing down while rioters smash public buildings, vandalize and desecrate public spaces and burglarize innocent local businesses. What is the fair middle ground, and how do we get there?
- AbrahamParangi 6y agoThe fair middle ground does not include secret police.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- balr0g 6y agoI’d suggest the fair middle ground is to loosen state power by defunding police departments and reinvesting in communities. I keep seeing this sentiment voiced, but from a ground level looking up it comes off as closeminded because it implies that “riots” and “protesting” are different things. The reality is no one in portland tried to burn down the justice center, if they did they would be shot on sight. Whats happening is people are disrupting their societies to make a point to the people who run it that they’re doing a poor job. That’s a noble endeavor, no matter the means. America’s founded on white supremacy, and America’s maintained white supremacy. I think it’s inspiring that people are targeting the police forces of their cities, who are in no uncertain terms the major enforcers of a rotten status quo.
- itsoktocry 6y ago>That’s a noble endeavor, no matter the means. America’s founded on white supremacy, and America’s maintained white supremacy. That's fair. But understand that not everyone agrees with this, and will be willing to do what it takes to defend their way of life. What does the end-game look like?
- Munky-Necan 6y agoI'm surprised that someone hasn't been shot yet. Unmarked camouflage officers in unmarked vans that do not identify themselves as officers sounds like they might get shot at if they try detaining the wrong person.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y agoIt's a no-win situation. If they fight back, they get labeled as terrorists. If they don't fight back, it provides positive feedback for the behavior and is likely to continue.
- Munky-Necan 6y agoLearned helplessness seems like the goal here.
- staycoolboy 6y agoEspecially with lots of alt-right military-cosplayers that frequent portland to stir up conflict. It's hard to tell who is a fed goon and who is an alt-right goon when they both shop from the same military suppliers. This has been going on for over a year.
- koheripbal 6y agoThey aren't unmarked - their camouflage uniform clearly says "POLICE" on the front. To be clear, do not shoot someone with POLICE written on their uniform, or even anyone you suspect might be a police officer, because you will spend the rest of your life in jail.
- xref 6y agoThe pics I’ve seen show a small “police” patch in dark lettering over camo obscured by assault rifle straps and equipment. That’s not very clear in the dark when they don’t identify themselves and are putting a bag over your head
- dls2016 6y agoI would call that unmarked, as I’m not aware of any federal agency who identifies themselves as “police”.
- nickysielicki 6y agoIf you’re looking to hear the other (pro-police) side of the story, I’d recommend checking out this video by YouTuber “Donut Operator”. He’s a former LEO and he makes pretty fair videos doing breakdowns of officer involved shootings and whether they were justifiable or not. He did some commentary on videos coming out of Portland. https://youtu.be/5EgMijMhS_U https://youtu.be/5EgMijMhS_U
- shostack 6y agoWhat criteria are you using to determine his videos are "pretty fair?"
- nickysielicki 6y agoHe doesn’t defend police that hurt innocent people. His video on the George Floyd death doesn’t make any excuses for the officers. Plenty of other examples where he says the cops are in the wrong.
- aerovistae 6y agoThere is no "other side" for unidentified officers in unmarked cars with no accountability. There's no justifying that. This problem could be dealt with by forces who identify themselves and can be held responsible for violations. Do you have some videos explaining the "other side" for the SS too?
- alexose 6y agoWell said. The attempt to divide this into a binary issue is (sadly) predictable. Nobody here should support the use of these gestapo-style tactics from the federal government, ever. For anything. Full stop.
- cameldrv 6y agoIt's even more that they're unmarked. They also refuse to speak at all or identify what agency they work for or even that they are law enforcement officers. They are also fastidious about proper pandemic face covering It's almost identical to Putin's little green men in Crimea in 2014. I'm very curious how it would play out in court if someone seriously tried to resist arrest with one of these guys. Are you really legally required to comply with someone shoving you around who won't even identify themselves as being a law enforcement officer as they shove you into their rented minivan just because they have a tiny patch that says "Police"? What about if they're not even the police, they're a federal prison guard or something?
- cwhiz 6y ago“Protests.” Let’s be honest on both sides. What’s going on in Portland is violent rioting. “Demonstrators” don’t burn cars in the street, but rioters do.
- Jgrubb 6y agoBurning cars, so what? Parisians riot like this about every 18 months or so and the state doesn't call out the secret police and somehow the country still exists.
- xhkkffbf 6y agoCould you be so kind as to self-dox the location of your car so the protestors will know who is totally okay with having his/her/etc car burned?
- beervirus 6y agoMaybe the fact that there are no consequences has something to do with the fact that it keeps happening every 18 months?
- dwaltrip 6y agoYou are in support of secret police extrajudicially detaining citizens? Over a burnt car? Why can’t law enforcement do this by the book?
- beervirus 6y agoThe initial detention of suspected criminals usually is “extrajudicial” in that it’s done by police without a warrant from a judge. These are federal officers instead of the local police (who should be handling this, except that they’re being hamstrung by local officials’ pandering to the mob). But that doesn’t make them “secret police.”
- gshulegaard 6y agoOk hold up. I actually live in Portland. There is definitely underplaying of the criminal activity going on by the media, but these are NOT riots. Now I am not sympathetic to those who claim that Police aren't justified in declaring many of these unlawful gatherings, but I am also not sympathetic to those calling it riots. What is actually happening from my local perspective is that there are mostly peaceful protests with a minority who are engaging in criminal activity. And this is coming from someone whose building's lower windows are boarded up and has seen a rash of attempted break-ins to facilities like our mail room. But regardless of the gray area of how local Police are trying to walk the line between shutting down criminal activity and respecting the majority's freedom of assembly, it is NOT ok for Federal Agents to be acting in any way besides securing Federal properties. Border Patrol is not local law enforcement. Federal Protective Service is not local law enforcement. Neither should have authority to do anything related to local law enforcement and they most definitely should not be doing anything off of Federal property. It's not their job to police Portland and no one wants them policing Portland; no matter what your views on the current state of unrest that much should be true. So let me be honest, these aren't riots. Take it from a local...but also note that this local is not a participant so my perspective is from an arm's length at best.
- mfer 6y agoI'm left with a lot of questions like... When someone is arrested there are certain legal requirements, like the miranda warning, that must be done. Are those all being followed? People need to be charged in the proper jurisdiction for the proper laws. Is that happening? A person can only be held in custody for a limited period of time without charges being filed. Is this being followed? Are the details documented anywhere?
- tantalor 6y ago> certain legal requirements, like the miranda warning No. Many people believe that if they are arrested and not "read their rights," they can escape punishment. Not true. But if the police fail to read a suspect his or her Miranda rights, the prosecutor can't use for most purposes anything the suspect says as evidence against the suspect at trial. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-miranda-warnings-29930.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-m...
- koheripbal 6y agoMiranda must only be given prior to interrogation - it does not need to be given prior to arrest. Anything the suspect says is inadmissible until Miranda is read. According to reports, Miranda is being read to people after they are taken away.
- thinkingemote 6y agoWhilst it's potentially interesting, this submission will probably get flagged by other users who can see that the flame value outweighs any curious discovery. There are a few comments which follow the guidelines and encourage discussion though, but more that are quick to temper.
- eanzenberg 6y agoAntifa was declared a terrorist organization. They were seen as co-opting a movement, instigating with violence throughout the country, especially in poor neighborhoods, and attempting to start a race-war. However you may feel about the designation, the means to stop them are deemed serious enough to warrant these measures.
- ZoomerCretin 6y agohttps://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-po...
- eanzenberg 6y agoThis looks less credible than the dossier
- ZoomerCretin 6y agoWhat dossier?
- eanzenberg 6y agoThe Trump pee-tape claim
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- orwin 6y ago> Antifa was declared a terrorist organization. Is this true? Was the identity right declared a terrorist organization as well? Did "antifa" killed someone in the US? (Genuinely asking, i stopped following the new around may). Because I will tell you that Antifa in europe is the leftist equivalent of the identity right (neonazis groups and white supremacists). So if antifa as a whole is deemed a terrorist organisation despite not having killed anyone while you have members of the identity right driving into a crowd or mass shooting people at a synagogue and the identity right as a whole is not at least declared a terrorist organization, this is a weird asymmetry.
- glogla 6y agoMETA: It seems to me there's many accounts here with unsuspecting (kinda generated looking) names, barely any karma and posts - and if you look through their comments, they are very monothematical. It would be interesting to see some analysis of posters in this discussion compared to "normal topic".
- dang 6y agoPlease follow the site guidelines when posting here. Note this one: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- eisa01 6y agoThis is a travesty - the US is turning into a fascist state Please donate to ACLU today, hopefully non-violent resistance can stop this: https://www.aclu.org https://www.aclu.org
- reaperducer 6y agoI see a lot of comments on HN, and elsewhere along the lines of "America is so terrible! Look how the police treat their own citizens!" The difference between the United States and many (most?) other countries is in the article's title: The word "sue." In America, aggrieved citizens have the right to correct their government. It's not always easy. It's rarely quick. But it can be done, and it has been done hundreds or even thousands of times in the past. America is a work in progress. Deliberately.
- Forbo 6y agoIt also deliberately hinders progress with things like first past the post elections and the electoral college. America is flawed from a purely game theory point of view. It has a lot of bugfixes it needs to implement, hopefully sooner rather than later, otherwise it will likely fail.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoDo you think they would be protesting still if there was an easier way to petition the government to make actual changes? Of course not. No one wants to potentially risk arrest and or be seriously injured in the political process. What we're seeing is the last resort of people organizing against a broken political system.
- koheripbal 6y agoNo. These (mostly teenagers) want change that most people don't want. That is why the process doesn't work for them - because they are the minority opinion. So that's why they resort to violence.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago> mostly teenagers [citation needed] > want change that most people don't want [citation needed]
- kyleee 6y ago
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoIt's a perfect Kafka trap, by resisting arrest by secret police in unmarked vehicles you can be labeled as a "domestic terrorist" later, justifying the arrest post-hoc. It's especially concerning they have no ID or agency badges, as right wing extremists have been using the protests to dress up like soldiers.
- kyleee 6y ago"It's especially concerning they have no ID or agency badges" Do you have source(s) for this claim?
- GaryNumanVevo 6y agoLocal LEO told them to identify themselves and they were told to “fuck off”
- itchyjunk 6y agoDHS is like that youngest kid that gets to do a lot more and get away with. Assume that what happened is legal and this type of `snatch and go` is a valid way to detain someone. Does it make it right? It doesn't sound like they were grabbing someone who had an arrest warrant against them. The state seem to not know that these detention were being made. Hard to know who is making the arrest. Hard to know what was being done during detention. Was their phone copied? Is that okay? Maybe more than just the local police have a bit too much power than they need.
- pmoriarty 6y agoWhy isn't Oregon law enforcement treating this as they do any other kidnappings: by finding and arresting the kidnappers, and freeing the victims? The people who ordered the kidnappings could also be rounded up on charges of conspiracy.
- jandrewrogers 6y agoThis presumes that local law enforcement with the requisite authority to allow this, such as the county sheriff, has not assented to the Federal agents operating in their jurisdiction. Many of the complaints are coming from people (like the Mayor of Portland) that have no meaningful authority over the operation of the Federal government in their jurisdiction. And the people that do have authority are quiet. It looks more like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and the right hand doesn't need the left hand's permission to do it.
- koheripbal 6y agoBecause the uniforms clearly say "POLICE" on them.
- krapp 6y ago> Because the uniforms clearly say "POLICE" on them. You keep pointing that out as if it actually means something.
- koheripbal 6y agoYou keep denying it as if no one watches the video themselves
- krapp 6y agoAnyone can buy a patch that says "POLICE" on it and sew it to some fatigues. That's not a legitimate form of identification. There is no law enforcement organization or bureau named "POLICE" which one could petition, interview or sue. Stop being purposely obtuse.
- simonsarris 6y agoFYI, what DHS alleges and is trying to stop, however competently or not: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-condemns-rampant-long-lasting-violence-portland https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-co...
- e12e 6y agoWow, that's a long list of mostly labeling minor property damage "violence". In a context where there have been some killings (car driving into demonstrations, shootings) - this seems like a clear case of wrong priorities along the lines of: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-po... Thanks for posting the link, by the way. Very illuminating to the DHS state of mind.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y agoYeah,very illuminating. It's amazing how everyone who caused property damage was a "violent anarchist."
- bleah1000 6y agoHave you seen pictures from Portland? It looks like the site of a third-world battle field. I'm sure it sounds like minor property damage, but when you see what's happening, it's not as minor as you think. Remember, these are the folks that destroyed the elk statue for some reason. Nobody is really talking about the fact that these riots have been going on for more than a month, so people don't know how bad it is.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Thetawaves 6y agoWill nobody think of the elk? Thats a fine molehill you've got there.
- staycoolboy 6y agoWas just in Portland last weekend. Other than the all the masks, and the awesome new outdoor dining where they shut down streets for restaurant patrons, it's identical to how it was the last time I was there in November. These are authoritarian scare tactics to make the protestors stop protesting police violence, so that they can go back to the violent status quo and maintain the blue wall of silence. The outcry from the pro-militants about public property damage is a day late and a dollar short: the point of the protests is about the murder of innocent blacks by out of control police. Murder >> Vandalism. Want the protests to stop? Address police brutality, don't escalate with random acts of surreal violence.