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When you keep framing the protests as riots you delegitimize what's going on. US Police forces are out of control and unaccountable for their actions. We've se

When you keep framing the protests as riots you delegitimize what's going on. US Police forces are out of control and unaccountable for their actions. We've seen reporters arrested live on the air for simply reporting on the scene. There's plenty of evidence linking lots of police to the white nationalist movement, so lets stop pretending like they're all impartial enforcers of justice. There's also the issue of agents provocateur. It's definitely happening and in fact having "riots" is exactly what the police want, because it gives them literal license to shut down any protest. So just stop with the "but the riots!" A quick search brings up the following but I'm sure there's plenty more info if one were to dig deeper: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-officials-investigate-protest-disinformation-possible-agents-provocateur-2020-05-31 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-officials-investigate-p...

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I've been asked not to get into shouting matches on this site, so I'll stop at agreeing with your first line. I intend to delegitimize what's going on, since anyone protesting in Portland right now is providing cover for bad actors trying to do real harm.
- pstuart 6y ago
  I too don't want to get in a shouting match but you interestingly disregarded my second point (let alone the others). Here is a clip of a notable instance (CNN reporter and crew arrested, live): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIClA57jWmQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIClA57jWmQ If this doesn't bother you, then you are beyond reasoning with.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I'll close the loop then by acknowledging that it doesn't bother me.
    - dang 6y ago
      We've rate limited your account again for perpetuating flamewars on this site.
      - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        I don't really think it's fair to characterize any of my recent posts as a "flame war". I haven't yelled, insulted anyone, accused them of being dishonest or anything. I'll give myself a time out and see if I can't get to a healthier mode of engagement here, but I'm concerned that my opinions on a wide variety of topics are being treated as hostile and political simply because others vehemently disagree with them.
        pstuart 6y ago
        I believe that you are debating in good faith. I'm just flummoxed by your assertions. It frustrates me to no end that things that I think should be incontrovertible are not. The division between "left" and "right" is destroying our country and I'm desperate to try to find some way of some dialog to find common ground. I've failed consistently so far. Edit: "political" discourse comes in different flavors -- there's the tribal/theater/personality side (where most of the ugliness lives), and there's the policy side which is entirely germane to our lives. It is the policy issue that I'm interested in.
        SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        Agreed. I respect that HN doesn't want to be the place for that dialogue - having apolitical spaces is probably a key component of finding common ground - but I struggle to identify anywhere where it could happen nowadays.
        pstuart 6y ago
        It should be positive dialog. I try my best but slip when I'm tired and frustrated, mea culpa. Could we try this again with an explicit goal of finding common ground? For example, I'm not a supporter of rioting (but there's some compelling thoughts that in some cases it effectively becomes necessary because the system has failed those involved). I throw that last part in to acknowledge that the topic of "civil unrest" is complicated and can't be reduced demonizing every instance and participant (e.g., the Boston Tea Party is celebrated in our annals of American History). Likewise, I'm not for eliminating all policing, but I do think the current structure we have does not serve society well. You can't fix what ain't broke, and it ain't broke until it's noticed. Thoughts?
- pixelface 6y ago
  by this logic would you say that normal people using tor are providing cover for bad actors?
  - pstuart 6y ago
    There's no logic involved. It's all "feelings".
  - yeetawayhn 6y ago
    The difference is that people aren't saying not to go after the bad actors in on tor.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

I've been asked not to get into shouting matches on this site, so I'll stop at agreeing with your first line. I intend to delegitimize what's going on, since anyone protesting in Portland right now is providing cover for bad actors trying to do real harm.

pstuart 6y ago
I too don't want to get in a shouting match but you interestingly disregarded my second point (let alone the others). Here is a clip of a notable instance (CNN reporter and crew arrested, live): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIClA57jWmQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIClA57jWmQ If this doesn't bother you, then you are beyond reasoning with.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I'll close the loop then by acknowledging that it doesn't bother me.
  - dang 6y ago
    We've rate limited your account again for perpetuating flamewars on this site.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I don't really think it's fair to characterize any of my recent posts as a "flame war". I haven't yelled, insulted anyone, accused them of being dishonest or anything. I'll give myself a time out and see if I can't get to a healthier mode of engagement here, but I'm concerned that my opinions on a wide variety of topics are being treated as hostile and political simply because others vehemently disagree with them.
      - pstuart 6y ago
        I believe that you are debating in good faith. I'm just flummoxed by your assertions. It frustrates me to no end that things that I think should be incontrovertible are not. The division between "left" and "right" is destroying our country and I'm desperate to try to find some way of some dialog to find common ground. I've failed consistently so far. Edit: "political" discourse comes in different flavors -- there's the tribal/theater/personality side (where most of the ugliness lives), and there's the policy side which is entirely germane to our lives. It is the policy issue that I'm interested in.
        SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        Agreed. I respect that HN doesn't want to be the place for that dialogue - having apolitical spaces is probably a key component of finding common ground - but I struggle to identify anywhere where it could happen nowadays.
        pstuart 6y ago
        It should be positive dialog. I try my best but slip when I'm tired and frustrated, mea culpa. Could we try this again with an explicit goal of finding common ground? For example, I'm not a supporter of rioting (but there's some compelling thoughts that in some cases it effectively becomes necessary because the system has failed those involved). I throw that last part in to acknowledge that the topic of "civil unrest" is complicated and can't be reduced demonizing every instance and participant (e.g., the Boston Tea Party is celebrated in our annals of American History). Likewise, I'm not for eliminating all policing, but I do think the current structure we have does not serve society well. You can't fix what ain't broke, and it ain't broke until it's noticed. Thoughts?
pixelface 6y ago
by this logic would you say that normal people using tor are providing cover for bad actors?
- pstuart 6y ago
  There's no logic involved. It's all "feelings".
- yeetawayhn 6y ago
  The difference is that people aren't saying not to go after the bad actors in on tor.