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Tesla worst for reliability in American driver survey

211 points by TekMol 6y ago

lcfcjs2 6y ago
I have heard this from others, it's a bit of a shame, as I was planning on purchasing a Model 3. Perhaps Tesla needs a couple models to iron out some of the defects.
aeternum 6y ago
The survey is meaningless if they do not disclose the questions.
- Animats 6y ago
  The full results are paywalled [1], but the questions are not much of a secret.[1] The story isn't right, though. This isn't a reliability survey. It's a survey of initial build defects shortly after purchase. Reliability surveys have to be made a year or two later. Tesla is still learning how to run an auto plant. The first years of Fremont were pretty bad. They botched the automation. They were operating in a tent at one point. Bloomberg: "Paint, panel gaps, scratches, and dents were the biggest problems owners reported." That's routine auto factory quality trouble. Possibly delivery process trouble. The drivetrain and control system seem to be OK. There's a tradeoff between production volume and quality. Some companies, like Toyota, can do both, but it took Toyota decades to get that worked out. Most of Detroit then figured out how Toyota did it. Tesla isn't there yet. [1] https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-initial-quality-study-iqs https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-initial-quali...
- giarc 6y ago
  You could also argue that Tesla is misleading since it won't allow customers in 15 states to fill out surveys.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > You could also argue that Tesla is misleading since it won't allow customers in 15 states to fill out surveys. What? Can you go into more detail?
    - giarc 6y ago
      In the article it says only customers from 35 states could fill out the survey since Tesla blocks customers in 15 states. So the data on Tesla isn't representative of the 50 states.
  - kjksf 6y ago
    Tesla doesn't have the power, legally, to prevent you (the owner of Tesla) from filling out surveys or otherwise talking about the car. That's because of first amendment in US constitution. What really happens is: Tesla doesn't release customer information to anyone, including JD Power. Which is a good thing. If you bought a Tesla, would you want your contact info to be sold to whoever asks for it, like marketers or spammers?
- thephyber 6y ago
  I spent a few minutes searching. J.D. Power has no information on the actual questions and I only found one article from the surveyed consumer side. The Initial Quality Survey page: https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-initial-quality-study-iqs https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-initial-quali... Methodology link: https://www.jdpower.com/ratings-methodology https://www.jdpower.com/ratings-methodology Cars.com article about receiving a survey: https://www.cars.com/articles/filling-out-a-j-d-power-survey-1420663308114/ https://www.cars.com/articles/filling-out-a-j-d-power-survey...
frei 6y ago
>The J.D. Power US Initial Quality Study, which gauges problems encountered in the first three months of ownership. A very questionable definition of "reliability".
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Perhaps it should be redefined as build quality, but it is still a decent metric worth analyzing.
- chadash 6y ago
  I don't doubt that Tesla's are less reliable by other definitions, but I agree that this isn't a great measure. Tesla's have lots of new and untested technology. That's their appeal. If toyota wanted to be less conservative and start using blazing new technologies in their cars, I'm sure we'd see the same issues there. Teslas are notorious for software bugs that eventually get fixed. What i'm more interested in is whether Teslas end up lasting a long time. Electric motors are a lot simpler and so in a sense, I suspect they have the potential to last for more years with fewer issues.
  - tjr225 6y ago
    > If toyota wanted to be less conservative and start using blazing new technologies in their cars, I'm sure we'd see the same issues there. The Toyota Prius was the first mass produced hybrid vehicle and is notoriously reliable.
    - lallysingh 6y ago
      It's also essentially a regular car with a 144v battery and larger starter motor. Otherwise, very conservative.
      - Closi 6y ago
        By the same metric, isn’t Tesla just like a regular car but with a bigger battery, no engine and a really big starter motor? I mean cars before that had all the adaptive cruise control stuff anyway which is the same but just a bit better right?
hrolfgar 6y ago
It seems odd that Dodge has the top score here, with Toyota and Honda significantly below the industry average. This runs counter to my personal experience and general perceptions. I wonder if historically unreliable brands like Dodge are becoming more reliable than Japanese brands, or if this is related to how this survey is conducted?
- gcbw3 6y ago
  trust surveys over anecdotes anytime
- chickenpotpie 6y ago
  Because it's only problems within the first three months of ownership. Every car from a company can fall apart at the 90 day mark, but as long as they do ok in the first 90 days they get amazing marks. Toyotas and Hondas are known for hundreds of thousands of miles, but they get no points for that because the survey doesn't go far enough.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  These surveys are a bit suspect. They tend to fluctuate a lot from year to year which makes little sense because car companies very minorly change their cars from one procution year to another. Major changes to design and construction only come every 5-10 years when a few models are often reintroduced together. Toyota ever ranking below any U.S. brand is almost hilarious but it will probably change on next year's survey. You can use these surveys to get a general idea of who is building more unbreakable cars by looking at them across multiple years. Tesla though consistently ranks low on these kind of surveys. It's not really a surprise as small design or manufacturing issues take years to work out. There's a reason car companies that are very conservative with change like Toyota often top this list and companies that are pushing new technology into their cars frequently like BMW do not as well. As an example, around 2000 BMW was one of the first companies to introduce variable valve timing on its whole line of cars. It was new and unsurprisingly VANOS seal failures soon became a frequent issue on higher milage cars. Basically every car has variable valve timing now and it's usually not an issue. Edit: I use the term unbreakable instead of reliable because the kinds of issues that this survey tracks include things that aren't really about reliability in the traditional sense we think of it. If a company introcudes a particularly flimsy door handle and people are breaking them it comes up in this survey just as much as check engine lights. Minivans for example get docked a lot in surveys like this even though they are often well built because kids are hell on car interiors.
ForrestN 6y ago
Warning: anecdote. My boomer parents have a Tesla and complain constantly about its reliability. However, often this is a consequence of their own disinclination to the more "techy" interfaces that Tesla favors. There are several cases where what they see as the car's failures might be seen, by Tesla say, as user error. There's a good lesson about design and demographics there. If you're selling expensive cars in the United States, consider building interfaces that are generationally appropriate to the only generation that has much disposable income in the U.S.
- Eric_WVGG 6y ago
  That's an interesting point, but you're also describing a shrinking demographic.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  > There are several cases where what they see as the car's failures might be seen, by Tesla say, as user error. That includes fatalities at Tesla so this should be no surprise.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  > the only generation that has much disposable income in the U.S I thought the target market for the Model 3 was primarily software engineers...
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rashkov 6y ago
Previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23637920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23637920
jsmith12673 6y ago
This survey is incredibly suspect ... as the author themself states, there's an inherent bias for non-american brands. I find it surprising the FCA and GM cars are topping the list, while being notoriously unreliable in the car community. Also worth noting that both Toyota and Ford have been ranked as worse than industry average. I'm not saying that Tesla(s) don't have quality issues, but this survey seems pretty meaningless.
- kogus 6y ago
  It sounds like you are saying that this survey is meaningless because it disagrees with your anecdotal experience. If the survey is conducted in a rigorous and valid way, then it's the perception, not the study, that needs to be suspect. Does J.D. publish their methodology and data? The best I could find was this PDF: https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/2020070%20U.S.%20IQS.pdf https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/202....
  - abfan1127 6y ago
    review consumer reports reviews of FCA and GM cars. They are crap. JD Power looks at the first 3 months. That's before the first oil change! The reality is that high-reliability cars require no mechanical repairs in the first 100k miles. anecdotal evidence: 1989 Honda Civic only needed a/c compressor from 100-180k miles. 1991 Honda Civic only needed a/c compressor from 98-140k miles. 2007 Toyota Camry required a CV joint and a sun visor in the first 100k miles. It needed a Power steering hose at 120k. 2010 Honda Pilot required a Fuel Tank Vacuum Valve in the first 100k miles, and a a/c compressor, power steering pump and rack at 190k. 2012 Chevy Sonic needed a new turbo in first 50k miles. 2003 Chevy Cavalier went through alternators like underpants, and would quit running if you turned off the a/c while stopped. I won't by GM or FCA vehicles with the exception of Dodge RAM diesels. I do maintenance myself and always use OEM parts when I sub work out.
    - kogus 6y ago
      I don't think it's as black-and-white as you suggest. This link seems to support the narrative that FCA has greatly improved, and it also agrees that Subaru and BMW, in spite of their high quality stereotype, statistically suffer from more than their fair share of issues: https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf... Anecdotal evidence is fun, but it's useless for making any kind of informed decision. We happen to have a 2008 Toyota Sienna. The general consensus for that vehicle is that its practically bulletproof. But we've had chronic issues with it since 50,000 miles. AC went out, plastic seals falling off, engine knocking, and many other issues. But I wouldn't hesitate to consider a Toyota when we replace it, because I know our experience has been an outlier.
tomxor 6y ago
Since the criteria isn't disclosed I will just have to assume tesla have the least reliable cup holders.
kogus 6y ago
It would be really interesting to take brands that have improved dramatically over the years, and do a thorough analysis of what internal processes they changed to achieve that result. You know that there are QA folks within each company doing that kind of analysis. After doing that analysis, it would then be a fun project to try to apply those manufacturing or design process changes to software development. I suppose in such a competitive and proprietary industry, such transparency is not likely.
asperous 6y ago
Here's another source (consumer reports) that backs up the idea that Teslas are on the less reliable end: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-makes-big-leap-consumer-reports-car-brand-survey-ranking-2020-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-makes-big-leap-consume... My thoughts are that Tesla is a newer company, they are trying things that others aren't, and third, reliability never seemed to be a top goal for them.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  I think it's more that reliability only really comes with maturity as a car company. In the same way that the reliability of a code base increases with maturity. A car is like a code base in that no one person ever fully understands the entire thing.
  - tomohawk 6y ago
    I've seen plenty of code bases become less reliable over time. I once took over a project that had been going on for 10+ years. Reliability was terrible. The first thing I did was stop all changes, and only allow critical blockers to be fixed. That eventually made it stable enough to be useful. Reliability takes more that time. It takes competence and attention to detail.
    - DubiousPusher 6y ago
      For sure. Old codebases can be but are not necessarily mature.
    - dingaling 6y ago
      Mature does not imply old; it means feature-stable, proven and understood. An example I know, Canon's pro-level cameras are mature on the day that they go on sale to the public because they have been tested around the world for a year or more to verify and debug the design. That's part of their appeal, users know that they're putting $8000 into a mature camera that will get the job done, though with fewer features and baubles than a Sony.
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bstockton 6y ago
I think this is a bit misleading. The metric is "problems" per 100 cars. That could mean the car's transmission gave out or it could mean there is a software bug or paint issue that is causing the driver problems. In the case of Tesla it could be the case a lot of problems are due to software bugs that can be corrected over the air seamlessly for free. I think classifying each problem into categories with associated weights would help to make the metric more meaningful
- mola 6y ago
  Why? Because we're used to software bugs?
  - bstockton 6y ago
    What? Just saying a minor software bug (possibly Spotify not integrating correctly) is not the same as a transmission or brake failure. Also, in Tesla's case the minor bugs can be fixed relatively quickly and for free. I don't know what you're talking about being used to software bugs.
ALittleLight 6y ago
I drove a rental Tesla recently. We were parked in a long line waiting to board a ferry and I was playing chess on the main console. When the line started to move, I tried to too and car just wouldn't go or start. People stuck behind me started getting impatient and honking while I was trying to figure out what had happened, turning off and on again, pressing random buttons, accidentally popping the trunk, etc. It took several minutes to realize that the car wouldn't start while you were playing a game on the console, so I had to quit the game, and then drive. My point with this anecdote is that it seems to me that Tesla has many such features, some of which may change with software updates, and, given the expansive definition of "reliability" used here, perhaps this is a driver of issues. I wonder what the rates would be if you restricted it to "issues requiring professional repair" or something like that.
- brianwawok 6y ago
  As a Tesla owner, I think it’s not a great rental car. A lot to learn.
  - ex3ndr 6y ago
    I think it is clearly opposite: media in mazda is insanely hard to learn.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      I bet that Mazda is stupidly easy to get into, start, put it in gear and drive though, and I bet it will behave predictably on the road like a normal car would. Everything else is secondary. Teslas definitely have a learning curve if you have never driven one.
      - ex3ndr 6y ago
        No, tesla behaves just like a normal car. Changing gear is the same as Mercedes, default settings makes tesla same as any other car. If you will change it's settings to something different than it is have to learn something. Chill Mode + No recuperation + no "one pedal driving" and you will get typical Mazda behavior. The biggest issue with tesla is that it is freaking powerful if you are moving from other car.
milkytron 6y ago
JD Power is clearly in bed with the traditional Detroit automakers. If you look at their history of rewards[0], you'll find that many times they choose the big three american companies vehicles over clearly superior import vehicles. They're vehicles on the page show one vehicle from each of the three big automakers in the US, one Chevy, one Ford, and a Dodge. There's also a Volvo in there that I'm sure fought some battles in conference rooms to get there. I nearly get triggered every time I heard about these awards in commercials. They are not to be trusted. [0] https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings
- 3327 6y ago
  Yeah - totally biased Study - Toyota and Merecedes on the bottom of the List and Buick at the top? Dodge? Kia? This study is a joke.
  - csunbird 6y ago
    To be fair, I can not say Mercedes cars are reliable.
    - davedx 6y ago
      Mercedes drive hundreds of thousands of miles, they're well known for it... http://www.mercedesmedic.com/many-miles-mercedes-benz-cars-good/ http://www.mercedesmedic.com/many-miles-mercedes-benz-cars-g...
      - csunbird 6y ago
        Maybe the old ones, but I do not see myself using a newer ones more than 100-150k kilometers.
- 1234letshaveatw 6y ago
  Their survey results indicated that a domestic model deserved to be highly ranked? Outrageous! Do you think masks are a part of a vast dem conspiracy also?
SkyPuncher 6y ago
I saw that exact chart discussed elsewhere. The general trend I concluded was this is a measure of how picky a brand's customers are. Since "problems" is left undefined these could be anything from "I don't like this button" to "the engine randomly stops running". Audi and Volkswagen; Chevy, GMC, and Cadillac; Ford and Lincoln, etc are essentially the same vehicles. I suspect the more luxury you go, the higher the expectations you have for your vehicle. The interesting exception is Lexus and Toyota. Anecdotally, I'm surprised to see Subaru with such high defects. I know a lot of friends with Subaru's and have only heard one bad thing - the seat springs wore out after several years of daily driving.
csours 6y ago
JD Power has a number of surveys and it is important to understand the context for each. IQS is the Initial Quality Survey, and it is basically "What defects did new owners notice". Historically, vehicle models with more years of production since model change/update have done better on the IQS Survey, which is why some unexpected cars score higher. Additionally, simpler cars have fewer things to go wrong. Disclaimer: I work for General Motors, this post consists solely of my opinions.
lazyjones 6y ago
Necessary info because poor media are summarizing this incorrectly as "reliability": > Tesla’s issues are primarily with production and things such as paint imperfections and poor fit of body panels, according to J.D. Power https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/24/tesla-lags-auto-industry-in-quality-finds-new-jd-power-study.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/24/tesla-lags-auto-industry-in-...
bitxbit 6y ago
Manufacturing quality is hard. Tesla, as a SV company, isn’t really interested in manufacturing it seems. Think they could really benefit from merging with Toyota especially at this valuation.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Think they could really benefit from merging with Toyota especially at this valuation. Merging them would create a mass of online fanboys so dense that it creates an automotive black hole. It will be impossible for discussion of any other brand to build up enough speed to exit the fanboy-well. Joking aside, brands that start with T and end with A seem to have a disproportionate number of very loud online fanboys. I can understand why they have the following they do but it doesn't make them any less insufferable.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    > Merging them would create a mass of online fanboys so dense that it creates an automotive black hole Ha! It might not be as bad as you think, there are a lot of Model 3 owners who used to own a Prius, so there's already a lot of commonality there.
spodek 6y ago
> the Elon Musk-founded firm Musk didn't found Tesla. From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tesla,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tesla,_Inc. > Tesla was incorporated on July 1, 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning. and that they, with a third employee, > connected with Elon Musk, who contributed US$6.5 million of the initial (Series A) US$7.5 million round of investment in February 2004
- AgloeDreams 6y ago
  Technically speaking his investment came with a retroactive co-founder status according to the company. But yeah no he wasn't there in the beginning.
  - TekMol 6y ago
    "Retroactive co-founder" - I wonder if that approach would work in other areas too. Like, how much would it cost to buy the status of an "Original member of the Beatles"?
    - filmgirlcw 6y ago
      Ask Ringo? Like, Pete Best was replaced by Ringo b/c George Martin thought he wasn’t good enough in the initial recording sessions with the band. Pete Best can claim to be an early member but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Ringo was there from the beginning. The analogy works pretty well with Musk here. Now, if you’re talking a Destiny’s Child situation where two of the early members were replaced in music videos — for songs they performed on and a record with their faces on the cover, you’d be correct. Michelle Williams can never claim to be an “original” member of the band, but she was part of the band from the time it started to take off, even if she didn’t get to accept a Grammy for the second album with her two band mates (who had to awkwardly go on stage with the girls they replaced).
      - TylerE 6y ago
        > but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Ringo was there from the beginning That's a rather curious bit of revisionist history. They played hundreds of live shows and made several released recordings before they hired Ringo - and that's not even counting the Quarrymen/Johnny and the Moondogs days which represent another 2 years before that.
mcguire 6y ago
"...as the Elon Musk-founded firm reportedly wouldn’t allow its customers to be surveyed in 15 of America’s 50 states..." Sigh. This again? Tesla has joined the list of producers of quality products like Oracle?
- jedieaston 6y ago
  In the other thread, this was phrased as Tesla not allowing those states to release the information of people who bought a car to third-parties because privacy. I'm sure if you wanted to take the survey in one of those states you can just reach out to JD Power yourself, they can't scrape your information though.
  - FireBeyond 6y ago
    That's a privilege reserved for Tesla if you complain about them publicly, or if you do something they don't like, so they can tell the press that you "were warned about hands on the steering wheel", even if that happened 14 minutes before the accident that happened. Or if you find references to new models or features, so they can lock you out of the car's firmware, after downgrading it, and disable diagnostic ports.
  - mcguire 6y ago
    How does Tesla "not allowing those states to release the information of people who bought a car to third-parties"? That's purely between you, the state motor vehicle registration office, and the state's regulations, right?
    - xkjkls 6y ago
      Other automakers release this information.
A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
This is one of the more damning articles for me. It includes nuggets I used to say as joke about what would happen if MS made a car including: “I have tried a reset but the glove compartment will not open after pressing the button…any ideas?” One response asked if the car was in Valet mode. When told it wasn’t, they followed with: “ok. That’s the ‘normal’ cause of random glove locking. Try putting it on and turning it off?” The fact that it is normal is amazing to me. I love what Tesla did to the industry in terms of advancing battery tech to force other players to move, but talk about Stockholm syndrome.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  This isn't specific to a Tesla though. Some years ago a friend bought a VW Phaeton (the W12 long is an underrated car I think). The boot wouldn't open. VW told him to reboot the car. Didn't work and he had to get a software update to make the boot work again. "If you put a computer in a fridge you get a computer that can cool things down."
- dredds 6y ago
  Some might consider it a feature if the glove box needs some known-only-to-the-owner quirk to open as basic security, at least prior to having voice/phone activation as an option. As i understood it, the valet mode is an early preparation for autopilot ride-hailing activity while the owner is working, otherwise known as robo-taxi mode, in order to keep the compartment locked in non-privileged cases. Can any owners confirm this?
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    Valet mode is a common feature on luxury cars; prior to the fancy infotainment stuff, it was a valet key that wouldn't unlock the glovebox or trunk, but would drive the car.
darth_avocado 6y ago
This survey is garbage. Survey design is an art. And unfortunately, this survey does not differentiate between a big problem like "brakes are shot" and a small one like "My spotify playlist doesn't show up like I want". Dig a bit deeper, for Tesla, > Infotainment is the source of more than a quarter of all problems Another thing to point out is that J.D. Power’s IQS does not differentiate between a problem that is the result of a physical fault or a design issue in which everything works as intended but the learning curve might be too steep. No doubt Tesla has production issues like any other car maker in the world. But to truly compare them, a more credible source of information is necessary.
- codazoda 6y ago
  It's also useless in time frame. This is over the first few months of ownership. I've owned two of the cars that rank near the top of this list and it's problems after 5 years that I care about. That's when you start to pay out of pocket and the problems get big. Most cars, now, don't survive ten years, but I want a car that's reliable from year 5 to year 10.
  - kbenson 6y ago
    It's not useless, it's just targeted at a specific audience. Some people only keep cars for 5 years and then get a new car. I buy used cars about 3 years old and keep them for 5-6 years, so reliability ratings over later years is more important for me (which is why I generally buy Honda or Toyota for my minivan/car needs), but it might not be for those people. Consumer reports has traditionally been good about showing reliability over different stages of car lifetime, but it's been a while since I looked.
    - brookside 6y ago
      Consumer Reports relies on elective responses to their reliability survey. Doesn't this make their rankings problematic and statistically invalid?
      - 6y ago
georgeecollins 6y ago
I agree with others that the survey is a bit suspect, but I do believe it is possible that Dodges don't have a lot of problems. Look at the cars they sell! They haven't changed their cars much in at least ten years. That is not a knock on them, Americans like Chargers and Challengers. If you are making the same car for ten years or more I hope you get very good at it.
- jonathankoren 6y ago
  The Tesla S was introduced eight years ago.
  - georgeecollins 6y ago
    That is a long time, but the Charger (and the Challenger is essentially a two door Charger) was introduced 14 years ago. More to the point, the Tesla S was revolutionary in 2012, the Charger was old fashioned in 2012.
    - jonathankoren 6y ago
      Stop moving the goal posts. As I said in another thread, Tesla's quality problems aren't actually related to anything "revolutionary". They're problems are literally screwing pieces of metal together straight.
taf2 6y ago
2014 I got my tesla. I’ve had one issue and one recall... equivalent expensive luxury cars range rover,bmw, Benz of the past... by 2-3 year mark all are thousands in maintenance monthly. Tesla for me at least has been a game changer. Cost aside I don’t think about my car much except for the occasional thread like this...
- jeffbee 6y ago
  I don't doubt that your Benz is expensive to maintain but I have a feeling that thousands per month in year 3 is somewhat exaggerated. Edmunds estimates the 5-year maintenance cost of the most expensive Benz I can think of (the E63 AMG) at less than $9000, which is maybe a lot but that's $150/month.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  > are thousands in maintenance monthly Yeah, I'm going to be skeptical (based on my ownership of multiple Audis and a Jaguar) that you were paying "thousands a month" (i.e. at least $24,000/yr) maintaining a two year old premium vehicle. Electric cars have more "mechanical" reliability due to the inherent simplicity of the electric motor, but this hyperbole just further encourages the perception of the "Tesla Fanboy" / RDF.
AngryData 6y ago
Ive hear the wheel bearings are garbage because they use special ceramic ball bearings, rather than roller or spindle bearings which are like a bajillion times better at handling wheel loads and shocks. Maybe they have changed it in newer versions but I havent heard anything about it since.
tidwall 6y ago
I traded in my Tesla Model S last December due to its degrading reliability. I ran into numerous issues towards the end such as: - The touchscreen bubbling and tearing away due to "delamination". - Door handles "not presenting". - The radiator breaking and dumping all its fluid on the garage floor. - The fast wall charger overheating. It got so hot I often needed to use my shirt as a buffer between my hand and charger handle. I was told it was normal behavior for summer time. Then there were driving issues such as autopilot glitching out and steering out of the lane. It got frequent enough that I had just stopped using that feature altogether. Then there was the time when I was on the I-10 going 75 mph in the HOV lane and the car beeped a warning and quickly slowed down to 15 mph. I had to put on my hazards and weave through rush hour traffic to get off the freeway and park the car. I got out of the car and back in, rebooted the computer and it started worked normally. Rebooting seemed to fix various things. This isn't to say that my entire Tesla experience was entirely bad. I use to be a big fanboy, and in fact this was my second Tesla Model S, my first being a 2013 P85+. But sadly that era has passed I don't see myself ever buying a Tesla again.
- enachb 6y ago
  Same anecdotal evidence on my end (S85). Despite the fact that it's technology (less moving parts) could make it the most reliable car, it ended up being the least reliable. Usually one service appointment fixed 3 things and broke 2 other things in the process. Wait time for an appointment was 3 weeks. I was done after 3 years and 40k Miles. Life is too short.
eruci 6y ago
I own a model 3. It is a great car, far ahead of the competition. I've had more issues with it than i did with my previous car (honda accord). Eg, blackscreen - many times, and once an unintended acceleration.
- p_j_w 6y ago
  Great car with unintended acceleration?
  - eruci 6y ago
    That only happened once.
sim_card_map 6y ago
I thought Mahk made it clear JD Power is garbage
pengaru 6y ago
> the Elon Musk-founded firm reportedly wouldn’t allow its customers to be surveyed in 15 of America’s 50 states If this is true, I don't care how reliable Tesla's are, I already know enough to never be a customer.
SpookyBits 6y ago
Everytime Tesla is mentioned here the deluge of hate is overwhelming. I genuinely don't understand it. Here comes a company that is actually doing something fundamentally transformative and good for the planet and its inhabitants instead just another in the countless line of garbage apps that at best are a solution looking for a problem and at worst actively contributing to the destruction of our species (Facebook). Seperate the man from the accomplishments.
- grecy 6y ago
  It has become extremely popular to "idea bash" anything and everything on the internet and in real life. It's not possible to do anything anymore without a crowd of haters. People can't stand the idea that an idea they don't understand might actually work, and they get angry when it does.
- elicash 6y ago
  >> Separate the man from the accomplishments. I think this is mostly good advice. However, the company does intentionally market him as the face of the company -- so it's hard to fault people for disliking the company due to the press he intentionally gets on the company's behalf. His twitter account antics are marketing, too. It's all part of the brand, for better or worse.
  - FireBeyond 6y ago
    Precisely. Tesla has said in SEC filings that @elonmusk is considered an official channel for company information.
- fataliss 6y ago
  I will not argue that Tesla is doing things differently. I have one gripe with the absolute truth suggested by "good for the planet and its inhabitants" that so many EV manufacturers ride on. Are electric cars good for the planet? Nope. Are they less bad than gas cars? Maybe. It's like saying that Diet coke is good for you because it replaces normal coke that is bad for you. That's an erroneous and arguably dangerous dichotomy. Sorry if I'm being facetious but that kind of marketing bothers me and I believe is damaging (to the environment in this case) by making us more inclined to settle for non optimal solutions.
blackrock 6y ago
One thing that worries me about Tesla, is all the electronics. Modern consumer grade electronics, are not known for lasting very long. And by long, I mean on the scale of 20 to 30 years. Often, circuit boards deteriorate. Either the solder goes bad, or some resistor, or what not fails. This is one reason why I prefer old style appliances, with minimal electronics. And I refuse to buy a smart refrigerator, because when that circuit board goes bad, then your refrigerator is now a huge paperweight. With an expensive Tesla Model 3, that can cost upwards of $50,000 USD, then the risk of an expensive paperweight here, is very real. And Elon is not in the business of repairing old Tesla cars, since it does nothing to boost his stock price. And with all critical instrumentation now being virtual, and displayed to you on the center monitor, then, you now have a very high risk of cascading failures. A better design, would have been to keep separate, the critical instruments needed to drive the vehicle, like the speedometer, battery charge meter, etc., from the infotainment system used to provide auxiliary support, like the GPS mapping, music, video, internet, browser, Netflix, etc. And especially the AutoPilot program, should definitely be kept separate. Or maybe, the people who can easily afford to spend $50k to $80k on an experimental car, doesn’t concern themselves with such frivolous things. And they buy themselves a new car every 5 years, so to them, everything I mentioned above is all irrelevant. And a lot of people who bought the $80k Model S, did so just to drive in the car pool lane. Once that privilege is revoked, then, its importance will diminish.
dutch3000 6y ago
Tesla cars haven’t been around long enough in a quantity to be able to even determine long term reliability. Short term reliability is obviously a joke assessment. My bet is as time carries on Tesla cars will rank low. No reason other than they are a new comer and you learn and improve reliability through real world experience like Honda. I would never buy a Tesla.

211 points by TekMol 6y ago

I have heard this from others, it's a bit of a shame, as I was planning on purchasing a Model 3. Perhaps Tesla needs a couple models to iron out some of the defects.

aeternum 6y ago

The survey is meaningless if they do not disclose the questions.

Animats 6y ago
The full results are paywalled [1], but the questions are not much of a secret.[1] The story isn't right, though. This isn't a reliability survey. It's a survey of initial build defects shortly after purchase. Reliability surveys have to be made a year or two later. Tesla is still learning how to run an auto plant. The first years of Fremont were pretty bad. They botched the automation. They were operating in a tent at one point. Bloomberg: "Paint, panel gaps, scratches, and dents were the biggest problems owners reported." That's routine auto factory quality trouble. Possibly delivery process trouble. The drivetrain and control system seem to be OK. There's a tradeoff between production volume and quality. Some companies, like Toyota, can do both, but it took Toyota decades to get that worked out. Most of Detroit then figured out how Toyota did it. Tesla isn't there yet. [1] https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-initial-quality-study-iqs https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-initial-quali...
giarc 6y ago
You could also argue that Tesla is misleading since it won't allow customers in 15 states to fill out surveys.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > You could also argue that Tesla is misleading since it won't allow customers in 15 states to fill out surveys. What? Can you go into more detail?
  - giarc 6y ago
    In the article it says only customers from 35 states could fill out the survey since Tesla blocks customers in 15 states. So the data on Tesla isn't representative of the 50 states.
- kjksf 6y ago
  Tesla doesn't have the power, legally, to prevent you (the owner of Tesla) from filling out surveys or otherwise talking about the car. That's because of first amendment in US constitution. What really happens is: Tesla doesn't release customer information to anyone, including JD Power. Which is a good thing. If you bought a Tesla, would you want your contact info to be sold to whoever asks for it, like marketers or spammers?
thephyber 6y ago
I spent a few minutes searching. J.D. Power has no information on the actual questions and I only found one article from the surveyed consumer side. The Initial Quality Survey page: https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-initial-quality-study-iqs https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-initial-quali... Methodology link: https://www.jdpower.com/ratings-methodology https://www.jdpower.com/ratings-methodology Cars.com article about receiving a survey: https://www.cars.com/articles/filling-out-a-j-d-power-survey-1420663308114/ https://www.cars.com/articles/filling-out-a-j-d-power-survey...

frei 6y ago

>The J.D. Power US Initial Quality Study, which gauges problems encountered in the first three months of ownership. A very questionable definition of "reliability".

MattGaiser 6y ago
Perhaps it should be redefined as build quality, but it is still a decent metric worth analyzing.
chadash 6y ago
I don't doubt that Tesla's are less reliable by other definitions, but I agree that this isn't a great measure. Tesla's have lots of new and untested technology. That's their appeal. If toyota wanted to be less conservative and start using blazing new technologies in their cars, I'm sure we'd see the same issues there. Teslas are notorious for software bugs that eventually get fixed. What i'm more interested in is whether Teslas end up lasting a long time. Electric motors are a lot simpler and so in a sense, I suspect they have the potential to last for more years with fewer issues.
- tjr225 6y ago
  > If toyota wanted to be less conservative and start using blazing new technologies in their cars, I'm sure we'd see the same issues there. The Toyota Prius was the first mass produced hybrid vehicle and is notoriously reliable.
  - lallysingh 6y ago
    It's also essentially a regular car with a 144v battery and larger starter motor. Otherwise, very conservative.
    - Closi 6y ago
      By the same metric, isn’t Tesla just like a regular car but with a bigger battery, no engine and a really big starter motor? I mean cars before that had all the adaptive cruise control stuff anyway which is the same but just a bit better right?

hrolfgar 6y ago

It seems odd that Dodge has the top score here, with Toyota and Honda significantly below the industry average. This runs counter to my personal experience and general perceptions. I wonder if historically unreliable brands like Dodge are becoming more reliable than Japanese brands, or if this is related to how this survey is conducted?

gcbw3 6y ago
trust surveys over anecdotes anytime
chickenpotpie 6y ago
Because it's only problems within the first three months of ownership. Every car from a company can fall apart at the 90 day mark, but as long as they do ok in the first 90 days they get amazing marks. Toyotas and Hondas are known for hundreds of thousands of miles, but they get no points for that because the survey doesn't go far enough.
DubiousPusher 6y ago
These surveys are a bit suspect. They tend to fluctuate a lot from year to year which makes little sense because car companies very minorly change their cars from one procution year to another. Major changes to design and construction only come every 5-10 years when a few models are often reintroduced together. Toyota ever ranking below any U.S. brand is almost hilarious but it will probably change on next year's survey. You can use these surveys to get a general idea of who is building more unbreakable cars by looking at them across multiple years. Tesla though consistently ranks low on these kind of surveys. It's not really a surprise as small design or manufacturing issues take years to work out. There's a reason car companies that are very conservative with change like Toyota often top this list and companies that are pushing new technology into their cars frequently like BMW do not as well. As an example, around 2000 BMW was one of the first companies to introduce variable valve timing on its whole line of cars. It was new and unsurprisingly VANOS seal failures soon became a frequent issue on higher milage cars. Basically every car has variable valve timing now and it's usually not an issue. Edit: I use the term unbreakable instead of reliable because the kinds of issues that this survey tracks include things that aren't really about reliability in the traditional sense we think of it. If a company introcudes a particularly flimsy door handle and people are breaking them it comes up in this survey just as much as check engine lights. Minivans for example get docked a lot in surveys like this even though they are often well built because kids are hell on car interiors.

ForrestN 6y ago

Warning: anecdote. My boomer parents have a Tesla and complain constantly about its reliability. However, often this is a consequence of their own disinclination to the more "techy" interfaces that Tesla favors. There are several cases where what they see as the car's failures might be seen, by Tesla say, as user error. There's a good lesson about design and demographics there. If you're selling expensive cars in the United States, consider building interfaces that are generationally appropriate to the only generation that has much disposable income in the U.S.

Eric_WVGG 6y ago
That's an interesting point, but you're also describing a shrinking demographic.
jacquesm 6y ago
> There are several cases where what they see as the car's failures might be seen, by Tesla say, as user error. That includes fatalities at Tesla so this should be no surprise.
rootusrootus 6y ago
> the only generation that has much disposable income in the U.S I thought the target market for the Model 3 was primarily software engineers...

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rashkov 6y ago

Previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23637920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23637920

jsmith12673 6y ago

This survey is incredibly suspect ... as the author themself states, there's an inherent bias for non-american brands. I find it surprising the FCA and GM cars are topping the list, while being notoriously unreliable in the car community. Also worth noting that both Toyota and Ford have been ranked as worse than industry average. I'm not saying that Tesla(s) don't have quality issues, but this survey seems pretty meaningless.

kogus 6y ago
It sounds like you are saying that this survey is meaningless because it disagrees with your anecdotal experience. If the survey is conducted in a rigorous and valid way, then it's the perception, not the study, that needs to be suspect. Does J.D. publish their methodology and data? The best I could find was this PDF: https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/2020070%20U.S.%20IQS.pdf https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/202....
- abfan1127 6y ago
  review consumer reports reviews of FCA and GM cars. They are crap. JD Power looks at the first 3 months. That's before the first oil change! The reality is that high-reliability cars require no mechanical repairs in the first 100k miles. anecdotal evidence: 1989 Honda Civic only needed a/c compressor from 100-180k miles. 1991 Honda Civic only needed a/c compressor from 98-140k miles. 2007 Toyota Camry required a CV joint and a sun visor in the first 100k miles. It needed a Power steering hose at 120k. 2010 Honda Pilot required a Fuel Tank Vacuum Valve in the first 100k miles, and a a/c compressor, power steering pump and rack at 190k. 2012 Chevy Sonic needed a new turbo in first 50k miles. 2003 Chevy Cavalier went through alternators like underpants, and would quit running if you turned off the a/c while stopped. I won't by GM or FCA vehicles with the exception of Dodge RAM diesels. I do maintenance myself and always use OEM parts when I sub work out.
  - kogus 6y ago
    I don't think it's as black-and-white as you suggest. This link seems to support the narrative that FCA has greatly improved, and it also agrees that Subaru and BMW, in spite of their high quality stereotype, statistically suffer from more than their fair share of issues: https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf... Anecdotal evidence is fun, but it's useless for making any kind of informed decision. We happen to have a 2008 Toyota Sienna. The general consensus for that vehicle is that its practically bulletproof. But we've had chronic issues with it since 50,000 miles. AC went out, plastic seals falling off, engine knocking, and many other issues. But I wouldn't hesitate to consider a Toyota when we replace it, because I know our experience has been an outlier.

tomxor 6y ago

Since the criteria isn't disclosed I will just have to assume tesla have the least reliable cup holders.

kogus 6y ago

It would be really interesting to take brands that have improved dramatically over the years, and do a thorough analysis of what internal processes they changed to achieve that result. You know that there are QA folks within each company doing that kind of analysis. After doing that analysis, it would then be a fun project to try to apply those manufacturing or design process changes to software development. I suppose in such a competitive and proprietary industry, such transparency is not likely.

asperous 6y ago

Here's another source (consumer reports) that backs up the idea that Teslas are on the less reliable end: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-makes-big-leap-consumer-reports-car-brand-survey-ranking-2020-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-makes-big-leap-consume... My thoughts are that Tesla is a newer company, they are trying things that others aren't, and third, reliability never seemed to be a top goal for them.

DubiousPusher 6y ago
I think it's more that reliability only really comes with maturity as a car company. In the same way that the reliability of a code base increases with maturity. A car is like a code base in that no one person ever fully understands the entire thing.
- tomohawk 6y ago
  I've seen plenty of code bases become less reliable over time. I once took over a project that had been going on for 10+ years. Reliability was terrible. The first thing I did was stop all changes, and only allow critical blockers to be fixed. That eventually made it stable enough to be useful. Reliability takes more that time. It takes competence and attention to detail.
  - DubiousPusher 6y ago
    For sure. Old codebases can be but are not necessarily mature.
  - dingaling 6y ago
    Mature does not imply old; it means feature-stable, proven and understood. An example I know, Canon's pro-level cameras are mature on the day that they go on sale to the public because they have been tested around the world for a year or more to verify and debug the design. That's part of their appeal, users know that they're putting $8000 into a mature camera that will get the job done, though with fewer features and baubles than a Sony.
- 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

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bstockton 6y ago

I think this is a bit misleading. The metric is "problems" per 100 cars. That could mean the car's transmission gave out or it could mean there is a software bug or paint issue that is causing the driver problems. In the case of Tesla it could be the case a lot of problems are due to software bugs that can be corrected over the air seamlessly for free. I think classifying each problem into categories with associated weights would help to make the metric more meaningful

mola 6y ago
Why? Because we're used to software bugs?
- bstockton 6y ago
  What? Just saying a minor software bug (possibly Spotify not integrating correctly) is not the same as a transmission or brake failure. Also, in Tesla's case the minor bugs can be fixed relatively quickly and for free. I don't know what you're talking about being used to software bugs.

ALittleLight 6y ago

I drove a rental Tesla recently. We were parked in a long line waiting to board a ferry and I was playing chess on the main console. When the line started to move, I tried to too and car just wouldn't go or start. People stuck behind me started getting impatient and honking while I was trying to figure out what had happened, turning off and on again, pressing random buttons, accidentally popping the trunk, etc. It took several minutes to realize that the car wouldn't start while you were playing a game on the console, so I had to quit the game, and then drive. My point with this anecdote is that it seems to me that Tesla has many such features, some of which may change with software updates, and, given the expansive definition of "reliability" used here, perhaps this is a driver of issues. I wonder what the rates would be if you restricted it to "issues requiring professional repair" or something like that.

brianwawok 6y ago
As a Tesla owner, I think it’s not a great rental car. A lot to learn.
- ex3ndr 6y ago
  I think it is clearly opposite: media in mazda is insanely hard to learn.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    I bet that Mazda is stupidly easy to get into, start, put it in gear and drive though, and I bet it will behave predictably on the road like a normal car would. Everything else is secondary. Teslas definitely have a learning curve if you have never driven one.
    - ex3ndr 6y ago
      No, tesla behaves just like a normal car. Changing gear is the same as Mercedes, default settings makes tesla same as any other car. If you will change it's settings to something different than it is have to learn something. Chill Mode + No recuperation + no "one pedal driving" and you will get typical Mazda behavior. The biggest issue with tesla is that it is freaking powerful if you are moving from other car.

milkytron 6y ago

JD Power is clearly in bed with the traditional Detroit automakers. If you look at their history of rewards[0], you'll find that many times they choose the big three american companies vehicles over clearly superior import vehicles. They're vehicles on the page show one vehicle from each of the three big automakers in the US, one Chevy, one Ford, and a Dodge. There's also a Volvo in there that I'm sure fought some battles in conference rooms to get there. I nearly get triggered every time I heard about these awards in commercials. They are not to be trusted. [0] https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings

3327 6y ago
Yeah - totally biased Study - Toyota and Merecedes on the bottom of the List and Buick at the top? Dodge? Kia? This study is a joke.
- csunbird 6y ago
  To be fair, I can not say Mercedes cars are reliable.
  - davedx 6y ago
    Mercedes drive hundreds of thousands of miles, they're well known for it... http://www.mercedesmedic.com/many-miles-mercedes-benz-cars-good/ http://www.mercedesmedic.com/many-miles-mercedes-benz-cars-g...
    - csunbird 6y ago
      Maybe the old ones, but I do not see myself using a newer ones more than 100-150k kilometers.
1234letshaveatw 6y ago
Their survey results indicated that a domestic model deserved to be highly ranked? Outrageous! Do you think masks are a part of a vast dem conspiracy also?

SkyPuncher 6y ago

I saw that exact chart discussed elsewhere. The general trend I concluded was this is a measure of how picky a brand's customers are. Since "problems" is left undefined these could be anything from "I don't like this button" to "the engine randomly stops running". Audi and Volkswagen; Chevy, GMC, and Cadillac; Ford and Lincoln, etc are essentially the same vehicles. I suspect the more luxury you go, the higher the expectations you have for your vehicle. The interesting exception is Lexus and Toyota. Anecdotally, I'm surprised to see Subaru with such high defects. I know a lot of friends with Subaru's and have only heard one bad thing - the seat springs wore out after several years of daily driving.

csours 6y ago

JD Power has a number of surveys and it is important to understand the context for each. IQS is the Initial Quality Survey, and it is basically "What defects did new owners notice". Historically, vehicle models with more years of production since model change/update have done better on the IQS Survey, which is why some unexpected cars score higher. Additionally, simpler cars have fewer things to go wrong. Disclaimer: I work for General Motors, this post consists solely of my opinions.

lazyjones 6y ago

Necessary info because poor media are summarizing this incorrectly as "reliability": > Tesla’s issues are primarily with production and things such as paint imperfections and poor fit of body panels, according to J.D. Power https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/24/tesla-lags-auto-industry-in-quality-finds-new-jd-power-study.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/24/tesla-lags-auto-industry-in-...

bitxbit 6y ago

Manufacturing quality is hard. Tesla, as a SV company, isn’t really interested in manufacturing it seems. Think they could really benefit from merging with Toyota especially at this valuation.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>Think they could really benefit from merging with Toyota especially at this valuation. Merging them would create a mass of online fanboys so dense that it creates an automotive black hole. It will be impossible for discussion of any other brand to build up enough speed to exit the fanboy-well. Joking aside, brands that start with T and end with A seem to have a disproportionate number of very loud online fanboys. I can understand why they have the following they do but it doesn't make them any less insufferable.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  > Merging them would create a mass of online fanboys so dense that it creates an automotive black hole Ha! It might not be as bad as you think, there are a lot of Model 3 owners who used to own a Prius, so there's already a lot of commonality there.

spodek 6y ago

> the Elon Musk-founded firm Musk didn't found Tesla. From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tesla,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tesla,_Inc. > Tesla was incorporated on July 1, 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning. and that they, with a third employee, > connected with Elon Musk, who contributed US$6.5 million of the initial (Series A) US$7.5 million round of investment in February 2004

AgloeDreams 6y ago
Technically speaking his investment came with a retroactive co-founder status according to the company. But yeah no he wasn't there in the beginning.
- TekMol 6y ago
  "Retroactive co-founder" - I wonder if that approach would work in other areas too. Like, how much would it cost to buy the status of an "Original member of the Beatles"?
  - filmgirlcw 6y ago
    Ask Ringo? Like, Pete Best was replaced by Ringo b/c George Martin thought he wasn’t good enough in the initial recording sessions with the band. Pete Best can claim to be an early member but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Ringo was there from the beginning. The analogy works pretty well with Musk here. Now, if you’re talking a Destiny’s Child situation where two of the early members were replaced in music videos — for songs they performed on and a record with their faces on the cover, you’d be correct. Michelle Williams can never claim to be an “original” member of the band, but she was part of the band from the time it started to take off, even if she didn’t get to accept a Grammy for the second album with her two band mates (who had to awkwardly go on stage with the girls they replaced).
    - TylerE 6y ago
      > but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Ringo was there from the beginning That's a rather curious bit of revisionist history. They played hundreds of live shows and made several released recordings before they hired Ringo - and that's not even counting the Quarrymen/Johnny and the Moondogs days which represent another 2 years before that.

mcguire 6y ago

"...as the Elon Musk-founded firm reportedly wouldn’t allow its customers to be surveyed in 15 of America’s 50 states..." Sigh. This again? Tesla has joined the list of producers of quality products like Oracle?

jedieaston 6y ago
In the other thread, this was phrased as Tesla not allowing those states to release the information of people who bought a car to third-parties because privacy. I'm sure if you wanted to take the survey in one of those states you can just reach out to JD Power yourself, they can't scrape your information though.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  That's a privilege reserved for Tesla if you complain about them publicly, or if you do something they don't like, so they can tell the press that you "were warned about hands on the steering wheel", even if that happened 14 minutes before the accident that happened. Or if you find references to new models or features, so they can lock you out of the car's firmware, after downgrading it, and disable diagnostic ports.
- mcguire 6y ago
  How does Tesla "not allowing those states to release the information of people who bought a car to third-parties"? That's purely between you, the state motor vehicle registration office, and the state's regulations, right?
  - xkjkls 6y ago
    Other automakers release this information.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

This is one of the more damning articles for me. It includes nuggets I used to say as joke about what would happen if MS made a car including: “I have tried a reset but the glove compartment will not open after pressing the button…any ideas?” One response asked if the car was in Valet mode. When told it wasn’t, they followed with: “ok. That’s the ‘normal’ cause of random glove locking. Try putting it on and turning it off?” The fact that it is normal is amazing to me. I love what Tesla did to the industry in terms of advancing battery tech to force other players to move, but talk about Stockholm syndrome.

KingOfCoders 6y ago
This isn't specific to a Tesla though. Some years ago a friend bought a VW Phaeton (the W12 long is an underrated car I think). The boot wouldn't open. VW told him to reboot the car. Didn't work and he had to get a software update to make the boot work again. "If you put a computer in a fridge you get a computer that can cool things down."
dredds 6y ago
Some might consider it a feature if the glove box needs some known-only-to-the-owner quirk to open as basic security, at least prior to having voice/phone activation as an option. As i understood it, the valet mode is an early preparation for autopilot ride-hailing activity while the owner is working, otherwise known as robo-taxi mode, in order to keep the compartment locked in non-privileged cases. Can any owners confirm this?
- aidenn0 6y ago
  Valet mode is a common feature on luxury cars; prior to the fancy infotainment stuff, it was a valet key that wouldn't unlock the glovebox or trunk, but would drive the car.

darth_avocado 6y ago

This survey is garbage. Survey design is an art. And unfortunately, this survey does not differentiate between a big problem like "brakes are shot" and a small one like "My spotify playlist doesn't show up like I want". Dig a bit deeper, for Tesla, > Infotainment is the source of more than a quarter of all problems Another thing to point out is that J.D. Power’s IQS does not differentiate between a problem that is the result of a physical fault or a design issue in which everything works as intended but the learning curve might be too steep. No doubt Tesla has production issues like any other car maker in the world. But to truly compare them, a more credible source of information is necessary.

codazoda 6y ago
It's also useless in time frame. This is over the first few months of ownership. I've owned two of the cars that rank near the top of this list and it's problems after 5 years that I care about. That's when you start to pay out of pocket and the problems get big. Most cars, now, don't survive ten years, but I want a car that's reliable from year 5 to year 10.
- kbenson 6y ago
  It's not useless, it's just targeted at a specific audience. Some people only keep cars for 5 years and then get a new car. I buy used cars about 3 years old and keep them for 5-6 years, so reliability ratings over later years is more important for me (which is why I generally buy Honda or Toyota for my minivan/car needs), but it might not be for those people. Consumer reports has traditionally been good about showing reliability over different stages of car lifetime, but it's been a while since I looked.
  - brookside 6y ago
    Consumer Reports relies on elective responses to their reliability survey. Doesn't this make their rankings problematic and statistically invalid?
    - 6y ago

georgeecollins 6y ago

I agree with others that the survey is a bit suspect, but I do believe it is possible that Dodges don't have a lot of problems. Look at the cars they sell! They haven't changed their cars much in at least ten years. That is not a knock on them, Americans like Chargers and Challengers. If you are making the same car for ten years or more I hope you get very good at it.

jonathankoren 6y ago
The Tesla S was introduced eight years ago.
- georgeecollins 6y ago
  That is a long time, but the Charger (and the Challenger is essentially a two door Charger) was introduced 14 years ago. More to the point, the Tesla S was revolutionary in 2012, the Charger was old fashioned in 2012.
  - jonathankoren 6y ago
    Stop moving the goal posts. As I said in another thread, Tesla's quality problems aren't actually related to anything "revolutionary". They're problems are literally screwing pieces of metal together straight.

taf2 6y ago

2014 I got my tesla. I’ve had one issue and one recall... equivalent expensive luxury cars range rover,bmw, Benz of the past... by 2-3 year mark all are thousands in maintenance monthly. Tesla for me at least has been a game changer. Cost aside I don’t think about my car much except for the occasional thread like this...

jeffbee 6y ago
I don't doubt that your Benz is expensive to maintain but I have a feeling that thousands per month in year 3 is somewhat exaggerated. Edmunds estimates the 5-year maintenance cost of the most expensive Benz I can think of (the E63 AMG) at less than $9000, which is maybe a lot but that's $150/month.
FireBeyond 6y ago
> are thousands in maintenance monthly Yeah, I'm going to be skeptical (based on my ownership of multiple Audis and a Jaguar) that you were paying "thousands a month" (i.e. at least $24,000/yr) maintaining a two year old premium vehicle. Electric cars have more "mechanical" reliability due to the inherent simplicity of the electric motor, but this hyperbole just further encourages the perception of the "Tesla Fanboy" / RDF.

AngryData 6y ago

Ive hear the wheel bearings are garbage because they use special ceramic ball bearings, rather than roller or spindle bearings which are like a bajillion times better at handling wheel loads and shocks. Maybe they have changed it in newer versions but I havent heard anything about it since.

tidwall 6y ago

I traded in my Tesla Model S last December due to its degrading reliability. I ran into numerous issues towards the end such as: - The touchscreen bubbling and tearing away due to "delamination". - Door handles "not presenting". - The radiator breaking and dumping all its fluid on the garage floor. - The fast wall charger overheating. It got so hot I often needed to use my shirt as a buffer between my hand and charger handle. I was told it was normal behavior for summer time. Then there were driving issues such as autopilot glitching out and steering out of the lane. It got frequent enough that I had just stopped using that feature altogether. Then there was the time when I was on the I-10 going 75 mph in the HOV lane and the car beeped a warning and quickly slowed down to 15 mph. I had to put on my hazards and weave through rush hour traffic to get off the freeway and park the car. I got out of the car and back in, rebooted the computer and it started worked normally. Rebooting seemed to fix various things. This isn't to say that my entire Tesla experience was entirely bad. I use to be a big fanboy, and in fact this was my second Tesla Model S, my first being a 2013 P85+. But sadly that era has passed I don't see myself ever buying a Tesla again.

enachb 6y ago
Same anecdotal evidence on my end (S85). Despite the fact that it's technology (less moving parts) could make it the most reliable car, it ended up being the least reliable. Usually one service appointment fixed 3 things and broke 2 other things in the process. Wait time for an appointment was 3 weeks. I was done after 3 years and 40k Miles. Life is too short.

eruci 6y ago

I own a model 3. It is a great car, far ahead of the competition. I've had more issues with it than i did with my previous car (honda accord). Eg, blackscreen - many times, and once an unintended acceleration.

p_j_w 6y ago
Great car with unintended acceleration?
- eruci 6y ago
  That only happened once.

sim_card_map 6y ago

I thought Mahk made it clear JD Power is garbage

pengaru 6y ago

> the Elon Musk-founded firm reportedly wouldn’t allow its customers to be surveyed in 15 of America’s 50 states If this is true, I don't care how reliable Tesla's are, I already know enough to never be a customer.

SpookyBits 6y ago

Everytime Tesla is mentioned here the deluge of hate is overwhelming. I genuinely don't understand it. Here comes a company that is actually doing something fundamentally transformative and good for the planet and its inhabitants instead just another in the countless line of garbage apps that at best are a solution looking for a problem and at worst actively contributing to the destruction of our species (Facebook). Seperate the man from the accomplishments.

grecy 6y ago
It has become extremely popular to "idea bash" anything and everything on the internet and in real life. It's not possible to do anything anymore without a crowd of haters. People can't stand the idea that an idea they don't understand might actually work, and they get angry when it does.
elicash 6y ago
>> Separate the man from the accomplishments. I think this is mostly good advice. However, the company does intentionally market him as the face of the company -- so it's hard to fault people for disliking the company due to the press he intentionally gets on the company's behalf. His twitter account antics are marketing, too. It's all part of the brand, for better or worse.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  Precisely. Tesla has said in SEC filings that @elonmusk is considered an official channel for company information.
fataliss 6y ago
I will not argue that Tesla is doing things differently. I have one gripe with the absolute truth suggested by "good for the planet and its inhabitants" that so many EV manufacturers ride on. Are electric cars good for the planet? Nope. Are they less bad than gas cars? Maybe. It's like saying that Diet coke is good for you because it replaces normal coke that is bad for you. That's an erroneous and arguably dangerous dichotomy. Sorry if I'm being facetious but that kind of marketing bothers me and I believe is damaging (to the environment in this case) by making us more inclined to settle for non optimal solutions.

blackrock 6y ago

One thing that worries me about Tesla, is all the electronics. Modern consumer grade electronics, are not known for lasting very long. And by long, I mean on the scale of 20 to 30 years. Often, circuit boards deteriorate. Either the solder goes bad, or some resistor, or what not fails. This is one reason why I prefer old style appliances, with minimal electronics. And I refuse to buy a smart refrigerator, because when that circuit board goes bad, then your refrigerator is now a huge paperweight. With an expensive Tesla Model 3, that can cost upwards of $50,000 USD, then the risk of an expensive paperweight here, is very real. And Elon is not in the business of repairing old Tesla cars, since it does nothing to boost his stock price. And with all critical instrumentation now being virtual, and displayed to you on the center monitor, then, you now have a very high risk of cascading failures. A better design, would have been to keep separate, the critical instruments needed to drive the vehicle, like the speedometer, battery charge meter, etc., from the infotainment system used to provide auxiliary support, like the GPS mapping, music, video, internet, browser, Netflix, etc. And especially the AutoPilot program, should definitely be kept separate. Or maybe, the people who can easily afford to spend $50k to $80k on an experimental car, doesn’t concern themselves with such frivolous things. And they buy themselves a new car every 5 years, so to them, everything I mentioned above is all irrelevant. And a lot of people who bought the $80k Model S, did so just to drive in the car pool lane. Once that privilege is revoked, then, its importance will diminish.

dutch3000 6y ago

Tesla cars haven’t been around long enough in a quantity to be able to even determine long term reliability. Short term reliability is obviously a joke assessment. My bet is as time carries on Tesla cars will rank low. No reason other than they are a new comer and you learn and improve reliability through real world experience like Honda. I would never buy a Tesla.