8 ms·

New EU regulation strengthens hand of developers in dealings with storefronts

115 points by nikki93 6y ago

_the_inflator 6y ago
This is good news. App stores are more like an employer these days. Sure, „Don’t depend on an App Store alone”, but if you apply the same logic to worker rules, you have hire and fire. The app stores are maturing and so comes regulation into play.
- amelius 6y ago
  This should be broader though, and apply to any kind of platform, from food delivery to ride sharing.
  - mqus 6y ago
    Afaict, this does apply to all online platforms. From the definitions: (2) ‘online intermediation services’ means services which meet all of the following requirements: (a) they constitute information society services within the meaning of point (b) of Article 1(1) of Directive (EU) 2015/1535 of the European Parliament and of the Council (12); (b) they allow business users to offer goods or services to consumers, with a view to facilitating the initiating of direct transactions between those business users and consumers, irrespective of where those transactions are ultimately concluded; (c) they are provided to business users on the basis of contractual relationships between the provider of those services and business users which offer goods or services to consumers; IANAL, of course.
shard972 6y ago
Where can i read googles ranking policies then?
TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
> Unfair B2B market practices can be tackled, but only if game developers and publishers talk about them. EGDF calls all game developers and publishers to report any unfair treatment they receive Report then where?
- coldtea 6y ago
  To the EGDF for starters... And if this law passes, to EU authorities...
ogre_codes 6y ago
EDIT: I was concerned this might prevent malware from getting weeded out, but there are rational carve-outs if you dig a little deeper in: > The various exceptions to the 30-day notice period can in particular arise in connection with illicit or inappropriate content, the safety of a good or service, counterfeiting, fraud, malware, spam, data breaches, other cybersecurity risks or suitability of the good or service to minors. Original Post ------------- I'm a bit concerned that "Article 4" will protect malware and fraudulent software from being removed: > Platforms will have to provide 30 days notice to publishers before removing content from stores, allowing them time to appeal or make changes to their software. So no immediate and opaque bans (article 4). Minimizing malware is one of the selling points of App Stores, and this seems to kneecap that to some extent.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mrweasel 6y ago
  I don't really like the: "inappropriate content" that's the kind of language which allows American companies to apply an American sense of moral onto countries with completely different ideas of what is inappropriate.
  - tennineeight 6y ago
    Yup, that caught my eye as well. This is the loophole that will probably continue the stupid events like app getting removed for a screenshot of reddit app showing the post with ISIS in it.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    That is something fundamental essentially for better or worse - it is their right. Even if their objections are stupid or morally wrong they have real impacts they have to be conscious of. Not having it would effectively render markets mutually exclusive as the terms are "do something which would cause a shitstorm here" like saying they can't take down a Zwarte Pete face swap app. The law prohibiting it would turn it into an international incident as a "EU demands a right to profit from blackface" scandal and nobody wins.
Magodo 6y ago
Just a thought, but why doesn't the EU (and only the EU has the will for this) have a government funded storefront for all apps. Then make Google and Apple add this storefront as an app on par with Play Store and App Store on all their devices. Sounds much more efficient than creating regulation after regulation
- nicky0 6y ago
  Sounds more like something China would do.
- andrewxdiamond 6y ago
  That would be very expensive and time cinsuming for a government entity to run. Let these companies figure out how to make money while playing by the rules
- nsgi 6y ago
  Because i would give the government too much control and it would probably suck?
  - Kbelicius 6y ago
    How would it give "too much control" to the government and why is it better that that control be in private hands?
    - askmike 6y ago
      > How would it give "too much control" to the government It might allow the government to combine data it has on citizens with this data. On top of the fact that in that situation one single entity (the government) would see everything from everyone. > why is it better that that control be in private hands? That argument is not being made. But right now you got Apple and Google competing, and new players might compete with those two at some point to. If you got a government no one can compete with that controls this data on everyone (as opposed to it currently being split between two big providers).
    - 6y ago
CppCoder 6y ago
„Platforms will have to provide 30 days notice to publishers before removing content from stores“ This happend to me a few times with one particular app on Google Play Store and a company I worked for. In all cases the app was removed from the store without any prior notice and very limited information on why it was removed in the first place. To make it worse, it took days to get a reply back which felt to be build out of predefined text blocks and did not address the questions nor solution. Apple on the other hand always provided great feedback and offered solutions and never simply took an app from the store. Hence I welcome this change greatly. Also noteworthy, the apps in question were absolutely clean and were to please the users. No spam, spy, advertisements boosters. Lets just hope this 30 day rule does not apply to the numerous bad apps, those should be removed more quickly and in fact not even approved in the first place.
akmarinov 6y ago
"Member states are not obligated to provide for ex officio enforcement or to impose fines" Move along, nothing to see here...
- IAmEveryone 6y ago
  It still allows the developers to sue, as well trade associations etc.
  - TomMarius 6y ago
    Sue to whom? There is no EU court you could directly sue to.
    - simo_dax 6y ago
      Literally from europa.eu: > Regulations are legal acts that apply automatically and uniformly to all EU countries as soon as they enter into force, without needing to be transposed into national law. They are binding in their entirety on all EU countries. And: > Public authorities in EU Member States have the main responsibility for the application of EU law.
      - TomMarius 6y ago
        I knew the citation, but thank you anyways. When you actually try with the local court you'll find out it's not as clear cut as it is on the EU website and the local court will adhere only to local codified law. My country's government is in opposition to some of regulations and the courts can't do anything about it.
        T-A 6y ago
        https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/court-justice_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodie...
raxxorrax 6y ago
If developers didn't use them in the first place, this problem could have been non-existent. I am glad that desktop has fended off tries to establish software stores, although I don't think we have seen the last of it. Still, I think this is good regulation. We have seen random bans from apps that didn't hit the correct taste and a mechanism to appeal is surely needed. I get that mobile developers don't have much choice if the want to monetize their software, but at least we should keep these ecosystems to unproductive devices.
- rimliu 6y ago
  I wastly prefer App Store on desktop too. Most of my software is in the same place. I can see which apps I have installed on a particular machine and which I do not. I can install it on multiple machines. It is updated automatically.
MrDresden 6y ago
After loosely reading over the regulation, I can't see anything limiting it to games in particular. I realize that the GI.biz article would focus on the impact that it would have on games developers & publishers, but as a mobile application developer my self I am more interested in the impact this will have on the EU ecosystem overall on both stores.
richrichardsson 6y ago
I wonder if this will apply simply to Apple Developer accounts? Currently if a developer wishes to ship products outside the App Store they are still stuck with the hard requirement to have an active developer account in order to notarise their software. If for whatever reason Apple decides to shutter a developer account (something I've witnessed recently [1]) then they are SOOL if they want to release for recent macOS versions. [1] https://forum.juce.com/t/apple-developer-support-is-unreachable/40611 https://forum.juce.com/t/apple-developer-support-is-unreacha...
lokedhs 6y ago
It'll be interesting to see how long it will be until the policies are made available as per these regulations. These companies are not going to do this without a fight, so someone will have to take them to court first. Sadly, I think we're several years away from actually getting this information.

115 points by nikki93 6y ago

This is good news. App stores are more like an employer these days. Sure, „Don’t depend on an App Store alone”, but if you apply the same logic to worker rules, you have hire and fire. The app stores are maturing and so comes regulation into play.

amelius 6y ago
This should be broader though, and apply to any kind of platform, from food delivery to ride sharing.
- mqus 6y ago
  Afaict, this does apply to all online platforms. From the definitions: (2) ‘online intermediation services’ means services which meet all of the following requirements: (a) they constitute information society services within the meaning of point (b) of Article 1(1) of Directive (EU) 2015/1535 of the European Parliament and of the Council (12); (b) they allow business users to offer goods or services to consumers, with a view to facilitating the initiating of direct transactions between those business users and consumers, irrespective of where those transactions are ultimately concluded; (c) they are provided to business users on the basis of contractual relationships between the provider of those services and business users which offer goods or services to consumers; IANAL, of course.

shard972 6y ago

Where can i read googles ranking policies then?

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago

> Unfair B2B market practices can be tackled, but only if game developers and publishers talk about them. EGDF calls all game developers and publishers to report any unfair treatment they receive Report then where?

coldtea 6y ago
To the EGDF for starters... And if this law passes, to EU authorities...

ogre_codes 6y ago

EDIT: I was concerned this might prevent malware from getting weeded out, but there are rational carve-outs if you dig a little deeper in: > The various exceptions to the 30-day notice period can in particular arise in connection with illicit or inappropriate content, the safety of a good or service, counterfeiting, fraud, malware, spam, data breaches, other cybersecurity risks or suitability of the good or service to minors. Original Post ------------- I'm a bit concerned that "Article 4" will protect malware and fraudulent software from being removed: > Platforms will have to provide 30 days notice to publishers before removing content from stores, allowing them time to appeal or make changes to their software. So no immediate and opaque bans (article 4). Minimizing malware is one of the selling points of App Stores, and this seems to kneecap that to some extent.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mrweasel 6y ago
I don't really like the: "inappropriate content" that's the kind of language which allows American companies to apply an American sense of moral onto countries with completely different ideas of what is inappropriate.
- tennineeight 6y ago
  Yup, that caught my eye as well. This is the loophole that will probably continue the stupid events like app getting removed for a screenshot of reddit app showing the post with ISIS in it.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  That is something fundamental essentially for better or worse - it is their right. Even if their objections are stupid or morally wrong they have real impacts they have to be conscious of. Not having it would effectively render markets mutually exclusive as the terms are "do something which would cause a shitstorm here" like saying they can't take down a Zwarte Pete face swap app. The law prohibiting it would turn it into an international incident as a "EU demands a right to profit from blackface" scandal and nobody wins.

Magodo 6y ago

Just a thought, but why doesn't the EU (and only the EU has the will for this) have a government funded storefront for all apps. Then make Google and Apple add this storefront as an app on par with Play Store and App Store on all their devices. Sounds much more efficient than creating regulation after regulation

nicky0 6y ago
Sounds more like something China would do.
andrewxdiamond 6y ago
That would be very expensive and time cinsuming for a government entity to run. Let these companies figure out how to make money while playing by the rules
nsgi 6y ago
Because i would give the government too much control and it would probably suck?
- Kbelicius 6y ago
  How would it give "too much control" to the government and why is it better that that control be in private hands?
  - askmike 6y ago
    > How would it give "too much control" to the government It might allow the government to combine data it has on citizens with this data. On top of the fact that in that situation one single entity (the government) would see everything from everyone. > why is it better that that control be in private hands? That argument is not being made. But right now you got Apple and Google competing, and new players might compete with those two at some point to. If you got a government no one can compete with that controls this data on everyone (as opposed to it currently being split between two big providers).
  - 6y ago

CppCoder 6y ago

„Platforms will have to provide 30 days notice to publishers before removing content from stores“ This happend to me a few times with one particular app on Google Play Store and a company I worked for. In all cases the app was removed from the store without any prior notice and very limited information on why it was removed in the first place. To make it worse, it took days to get a reply back which felt to be build out of predefined text blocks and did not address the questions nor solution. Apple on the other hand always provided great feedback and offered solutions and never simply took an app from the store. Hence I welcome this change greatly. Also noteworthy, the apps in question were absolutely clean and were to please the users. No spam, spy, advertisements boosters. Lets just hope this 30 day rule does not apply to the numerous bad apps, those should be removed more quickly and in fact not even approved in the first place.

akmarinov 6y ago

"Member states are not obligated to provide for ex officio enforcement or to impose fines" Move along, nothing to see here...

IAmEveryone 6y ago
It still allows the developers to sue, as well trade associations etc.
- TomMarius 6y ago
  Sue to whom? There is no EU court you could directly sue to.
  - simo_dax 6y ago
    Literally from europa.eu: > Regulations are legal acts that apply automatically and uniformly to all EU countries as soon as they enter into force, without needing to be transposed into national law. They are binding in their entirety on all EU countries. And: > Public authorities in EU Member States have the main responsibility for the application of EU law.
    - TomMarius 6y ago
      I knew the citation, but thank you anyways. When you actually try with the local court you'll find out it's not as clear cut as it is on the EU website and the local court will adhere only to local codified law. My country's government is in opposition to some of regulations and the courts can't do anything about it.
      - T-A 6y ago
        https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/court-justice_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodie...

raxxorrax 6y ago

If developers didn't use them in the first place, this problem could have been non-existent. I am glad that desktop has fended off tries to establish software stores, although I don't think we have seen the last of it. Still, I think this is good regulation. We have seen random bans from apps that didn't hit the correct taste and a mechanism to appeal is surely needed. I get that mobile developers don't have much choice if the want to monetize their software, but at least we should keep these ecosystems to unproductive devices.

rimliu 6y ago
I wastly prefer App Store on desktop too. Most of my software is in the same place. I can see which apps I have installed on a particular machine and which I do not. I can install it on multiple machines. It is updated automatically.

MrDresden 6y ago

After loosely reading over the regulation, I can't see anything limiting it to games in particular. I realize that the GI.biz article would focus on the impact that it would have on games developers & publishers, but as a mobile application developer my self I am more interested in the impact this will have on the EU ecosystem overall on both stores.

richrichardsson 6y ago

I wonder if this will apply simply to Apple Developer accounts? Currently if a developer wishes to ship products outside the App Store they are still stuck with the hard requirement to have an active developer account in order to notarise their software. If for whatever reason Apple decides to shutter a developer account (something I've witnessed recently [1]) then they are SOOL if they want to release for recent macOS versions. [1] https://forum.juce.com/t/apple-developer-support-is-unreachable/40611 https://forum.juce.com/t/apple-developer-support-is-unreacha...

lokedhs 6y ago

It'll be interesting to see how long it will be until the policies are made available as per these regulations. These companies are not going to do this without a fight, so someone will have to take them to court first. Sadly, I think we're several years away from actually getting this information.