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> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you sp

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately exaggerated the capabilities of Autopilot. It's a disgrace and one of many many many reasons why Tesla needs to outright fire Musk. There are too many good people at Tesla, who don't deserve his selfish and irresponsible leadership. To the people pointing out that airplane autopilots work similarly to Tesla Autopilot: the problem is not the foolish Tesla owners have never flows a plane before. The problem is that in the public mind, they "know" that "autopilot" means "totally autonomous" and they "know" that the computer-car-spaceship supergenius Elon Musk has been hyping his self-driving tech. It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman, that "autopilot" is a very limited set of features, and so on - and that none of these things detract from the fact that Tesla makes a good car. But Tesla fans shouldn't invent ridiculous exonerations. Tesla has a responsibility for the safety of its users and they failed. Fans (along with the EU and US) need to hold the company accountable.

alasdair_ 6y ago
> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman Musk may be many, many things - perhaps even a conman - but he is in no way an “idiot” in any sane definition of that word.
knocte 6y ago
Amen.
typon 6y ago
It's strange how much people will bend over backwards to give Musk the benefit of doubt when he openly lies about such things
- ardit33 6y ago
  While he has achieved a lot, His claims sometimes are downright bizarre... I don't know if it is just intentional deception, drugs, or some kind of bi-polar mania, or a combination of all the above. We should be able to make our Teslas to be fully automated robo-taxis by now... and earn cash on the side.... https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-robo-taxis-elon-musk-pt-barnum-circus-2019-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-robo-taxis-elon-musk-p... I wouldn't trust my family's life, on his (often) delusional claims.
  - ianmobbs 6y ago
    Most of the achievements people ascribe to him aren't even his. Musk bought the company then gave himself the title of 'founder'. He's a businessman, not a scientist
    - singlow 6y ago
      What did the company have when he bought it apart from a name?
      - ianmobbs 6y ago
        They already had the Roadster, Musk just funded it.
        singlow 6y ago
        In what way did they "have the Roadster" in February 2004, 6 months after the first two founders started the company and 9 months before it was named Tesla? At the point that Musk joined they were still working with a TZero converted to a lithium battery pack.
    - drcross 6y ago
      >He's a businessman, not a scientist How can you even say that? I've heard more scientific discussions out of him compared to all the other CEO's I've ever heard speak combined. Musk has a head for physics and numbers and can easily come up with calculations for classical mechanics, material technology, information theory off the top of your head. For you to say the contrary is doublespeak.
dkonofalski 6y ago
I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well. As currently designed, "Autopilot" requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel, provide rotational counter-weight on it, and you have to agree to safety and attention disclaimers before you can even enable the features. Yes, there are absolutely misconceptions that may happen with the general public who think that "Autopilot" is completely autonomous but anyone who actually owns the vehicle and has the ability to drive with it would have to be willingly negligent in order to consider it "dangerous" or "deceptive". As an example, someone posted a link as a comment to the OP stating that Elon has been marketing Teslas as FSD when, in reality, the blog post in question just says that every Tesla has the hardware that makes it capable of it and that's absolutely true. You're right that the general public auto-translates "Autopilot" to "Fully Self-Driving" but that's just as much a media and reporting problem as it is a Tesla or Elon problem.
- bakuninsbart 6y ago
  Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". The etymology of the word automatic is also very telling. Generally we ascribe meaning to words by how people use it, and I'm not sure I'd call marketers people.
  - dkonofalski 6y ago
    Is a car now interchangeable with "aircraft, spacecraft, or ships"?
    - callalex 6y ago
      Yes.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". This is describing cruise control.
some-guy 6y ago
> It's a disgrace and one of many many many reasons why Tesla needs to outright fire Musk. I drove a co-worker's Tesla and I loved it--and I will never buy one for the reasons you mentioned. I'm glad Tesla exists to force other automakers to compete on the electric front, but that's the extent of my admiration for them.
- Shivetya 6y ago
  I bought one in spite of Musk, simply put the technology of the car and that it brought back memories as a kid of all the cool concept cars that never got built sold me. That is performs so well it just a bonus. I feel like I am driving the future day in and day out. However I think that only does Musk misrepresent what the technology is capable of and the timeline I think that many quality of life features are missing simply because if he does not want it no one wants it; my bugaboo has been the poor support for bluetooth music from phones. It was only recently that a Tesla owner could select what track within a play list to play; they still cannot select the playlist, artist, and more, which are features common in every day cars and for many years. I have no plans on giving up my Tesla soon, I am looking forward to the Audi BEV TT so I can put convertible and EV together. That is 2023 at the earliest. At least Tesla is forcing the hands of other automakers PS: I would go so far as to state I believe the 8k cost they apply to full self driving is to convince people it really does what he claims. As in, it can only be so expensive because it must work. That 8k is also why I won't consider a new Telsa, originally I figured a Y would be nice PPS: I am sure besides myself many of us have posted here and elsewhere that the name "Autopilot" implied far too much. Glad some court stepped in and said stop it PPPS: Kind of fun a German court upheld this, considering all the years their own auto industry was committing outright fraud
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    > I think that only does Musk I think you dropped a 'not' in there.
  - birdyrooster 6y ago
    People using their childhood dreams as an excuse to be functional sociopaths doesn't cut it. https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/30/20891314/elon-musk-tesla-labor-violation-nlrb https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/30/20891314/elon-musk-... https://www.elonmusk.today https://www.elonmusk.today
dreamer7 6y ago
> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman Sorry to nitpick but highly knowledgeable people will surely never claim Musk is an idiot anything. He is definitely a genius in several ways. For something so technologically advanced as self-driving cars, his stuttering style seems to convey more sincerity to the general public than Steve Job's glib speech ever would
- dave5104 6y ago
  Musk isn't an idiot, he's overseen some great things at the companies he runs, and I hope the companies he's running continue pushing technology forward. But Musk as a human isn't so great. He'd do better to keep his mouth shut sometimes, and lay off Twitter every now and again. Between falsely accusing people of being pedophiles, claiming to take Tesla private in a tweet, and various other "incidents", he's kind of an idiot when it comes to PR.
  - drcross 6y ago
    >But Musk as a human isn't so great. I would be very hesitant to criticise someone who has arguably done/will do more for the continuation for humanity than anyone else who has ever lived. Maybe it's your definition of "isn't great" that needs re-calibration.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      Impressive case of Poe’s Law here.
    - itsoktocry 6y ago
      >who has arguably done/will do more for the continuation for humanity than anyone else who has ever lived. Because he's building some electric cars? How low is your bar?
      - cjhopman 6y ago
        But you don't understand. Car analysts since the early 90s have been saying that electric cars would become profitable and become a serious chunk of the market by 2020 because they all knew that musk was going to come along and show us how great electric cars are and save the world.
baxtr 6y ago
> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman That and the richest man on the planet. What does this tell about us as a species? Some compare him to the late Jobs. I think this couldn’t be farther from the truth.
- azernik 6y ago
  He not quite the richest man on the planet - that's Jeff Bezos. 16-richest, from the last Forbes ranking that shows up on Google.
lazyjones 6y ago
> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman The same "highly knowledgable people" who have been shorting TSLA and parroting that the company is going broke any moment now, surely. I'm actually surprised people aren't ashamed to write such utter nonsense in a place like HN.
- hef19898 6y ago
  Well, shorting Tesla was a bet. As was investing in it. A bet that had serious foundations, with Tesla potentially running out of money.
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  Look I really don't have a dog in the $TSLA or Tesla fight - I have no investments in the stock market and due to a disability I cannot drive a car. My grievance is with celebrity CEO worship, and in giving CEO credit for labor's accomplishments (which is particularly egregious in the case of SpaceX). Being an idiot conman and being a technical genius are not mutually exclusive. And clearly being an idiot conman and being the CEO of a valuable company aren't mutually exclusive. Musk's idiotic conning has repeatedly gotten Tesla into serious legal trouble, including running a con - and it's a plain con job - about Tesla's autonomous vehicle capabilities. I know I am being mean to Elon by calling him an idiot and if I were trying to be neutral I might say "recklessly dishonest." But facts are facts.
  - lazyjones 6y ago
    > I know I am being mean to Elon by calling him an idiot [...] But facts are facts. You are not being mean, just silly. Elon clearly isn't an "idiot" however you stretch the meaning of the word, he's a highly capable and successful man and has demonstrated repeatedly his skill, both in engineering and entrepreneurship. And your opinion isn't a fact.
    - ojnabieoot 6y ago
      I am copying another comment of mine to address this. The point is that I am calling Musk an idiot because he has a long history of being an idiot. The comment was more addressing him also being an obvious con artist, but I think his idiocy shines through. ~~~ [...]I am not denying that he is talented and he probably has a > 105 IQ. The Autopilot controversy is just a straight con job, and a very stupid one. The BS about the $420 stock price was a horrendously stupid con job. His disinformation mongering about coronavirus - when he is smart enough to know the truth - is also a con job, both for his fans and his workers. Deliberately under-counting workers injuries at Tesla plants is conning safety regulators - it's not as dumb as Elon's other cons, but it's a con. Removing safety markers because Elon doesn't like them aesthetically is maybe not a con job but it is remarkably idiotic. The PR-motivated stuff about Musk engineering a solution to those kids trapped in Thailand - straight-up con job, and one that blew up in his face due to his idiotic and narcissitic use of Twitter. Hyperloop (remember that?) was always a con job, and one that was so transparently stupid that nobody but Musk could have gotten away with it. I could go on. The point is that I am calling Musk an "idiot conman" because of a) his well-documented affinity for conning his customers, fans, investors, and government agencies b) his well-documented acts of being a huge idiot, including in his planning and execution of most of the above con jobs
jacquesm 6y ago
It goes further than that: and then, when - predictably - people die the company turns around and engages in the most terrible form of victim blaming I've ever seen, to suggest that those consumers should have known better than to believe their marketing.
haecceity 6y ago
Isn't airplane autopilot only used when there's no traffic around. An analogous autopilot for cars would never be used unless if you're in an empty parking lot.
- Symmetry 6y ago
  Yes, anybody who has used an autopilot on a boat or airplane will understand that they work exactly the same way the "autopilot" on a Tesla works. But that's not how the general public understand the word and so Tesla shouldn't have used it in advertising copy aimed at the general public.
bredren 6y ago
Some of your points are valid though saying he is an idiot and a conman undercuts your statement. The man is no idiot, and while some of the things he has said have not come true, or not been true to begin with, i do not think it is not reasonable to describe him as a “conman.”
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  See above about being an idiot and being a genius not being mutually exclusive. I am not denying that he is talented and he probably has a > 105 IQ. The Autopilot controversy is just a straight con job, and a very stupid one. The BS about the $420 stock price was a horrendously stupid con job. His disinformation mongering about coronavirus - when he is smart enough to know the truth - is also a con job, both for his fans and his workers. Deliberately under-counting workers injuries at Tesla plants is conning safety regulators - it's not as dumb as Elon's other cons, but it's a con. Removing safety markers because Elon doesn't like them aesthetically is maybe not a con job but it is remarkably idiotic. The PR-motivated stuff about Musk engineering a solution to those kids trapped in Thailand - straight-up con job, and one that blew up in his face due to his idiotic and narcissitic use of Twitter. Hyperloop (remember that?) was always a con job, and one that was so transparently stupid that nobody but Musk could have gotten away with it. I could go on. The point is that I am calling Musk an "idiot conman" because of a) his well-documented affinity for conning his customers, fans, investors, and government agencies b) his well-documented acts of being a huge idiot, including in his planning and execution of most of the above con jobs
wittyreference 6y ago
> let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice There's a very odd tendency for people to engage with corporate PR packages in the same way they engage in interpersonal interactions. In the abstract, sure, they get that it's a crafted artifact meant to maximize profits, but in the immediate sense... they act as though the words have any intrinsic meaning at all rather than "white noise that maximizes likelihood of profit, while ideally not instigating litigation or regulation." It's not unique to Tesla. It's every single time a major corp. issues a significant public statement, as though it's some sort of earnest missive from the founder rather than a PR-crafted artifact vetted by legal, compliance, and probably the COO and CMO, if not a board member or two. Corps are profit-maximizing engines. They are not your buddies. They are not speaking from the heart. They're not even spinning something that started off as something from the heart. They are designing cognitive drone strikes meant to optimize public reception of current business practices.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  > rather than a PR-crafted artifact vetted by legal, compliance I mean, if THIS was vetted by legal and compliance, they’re, er, probably not very good.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Many companies have learned (the hard way) that public statements are admissible to court. All public statements from most big companies go through many levels of checking to ensure they don't send a wrong message. I know of one case where the warning label on a lawnmower that rocks can be thrown conflicted with the advertising picture of a kid close to a lawnmower and therefore the company doesn't believe that warning lable. I'm not sure what came of it (probably settled out of court for big $$$). However many companies are careful what they say.
  - wittyreference 6y ago
    I'm not saying they're wrong to be careful. If my words could shift the share price of an entire enterprise, I'd have them damn carefully vetted, too. I'm saying that their words are very carefully crafted, and should be engaged with as the product of artifice, not genuine expression.
ummonk 6y ago
The people who claim airplane autopilots work similarly are flat out lying. Pilots can briefly take their attention away from the plane without issue. They have to be present and ready to intervene but not constantly closely monitoring what the aircraft is doing. There is a very real difference in the amount of attention required.
- phire 6y ago
  That is more about how planes and cars are different than about how plane and Tesla autopilots are different. When driving a car, if you take your hands off a car, you will crash within seconds. Either you will come to a corner, or the shape of the road will just cause you to drift off. You are always zooming past obstacles that are meters away from you. Often less. Planes are different. Even without an autopilot, the pilots have trim wheels that allow them to adjust all the surfaces so the plane flys excatly level and stable when they aren't touching the controls. So even without an autopilot, the plane is able to fly for minutes at a time without the pilot touching the controls. Eventually the balance will change, fuel is burns and the wind conditions might change, but these things happen slowly. All the autopilot really does is extend the amount of time the pilots can avoid touching the controls from minutes to hours. The other major difference with planes is the available recovery time from any issue is much longer, at least when not landing/taking off. When planes are near the ground the pilots are require to pay just as much attention as Tesla drivers are, actually far more attention. But when planes are at high altitude, pilots have tens of seconds to detect something is going wrong, disengage the autopilot and correct the attitude. There are no obstacles. ATC keeps other planes far away. But with cars, you are always seconds away from hitting an object. The driver needs to be able to take over from the autopilot instantly. Plane autopilots work great for planes. They simply don't transfer over to cars. The operating environment is completely different.

alasdair_ 6y ago

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman Musk may be many, many things - perhaps even a conman - but he is in no way an “idiot” in any sane definition of that word.

knocte 6y ago

Amen.

typon 6y ago

It's strange how much people will bend over backwards to give Musk the benefit of doubt when he openly lies about such things

ardit33 6y ago
While he has achieved a lot, His claims sometimes are downright bizarre... I don't know if it is just intentional deception, drugs, or some kind of bi-polar mania, or a combination of all the above. We should be able to make our Teslas to be fully automated robo-taxis by now... and earn cash on the side.... https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-robo-taxis-elon-musk-pt-barnum-circus-2019-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-robo-taxis-elon-musk-p... I wouldn't trust my family's life, on his (often) delusional claims.
- ianmobbs 6y ago
  Most of the achievements people ascribe to him aren't even his. Musk bought the company then gave himself the title of 'founder'. He's a businessman, not a scientist
  - singlow 6y ago
    What did the company have when he bought it apart from a name?
    - ianmobbs 6y ago
      They already had the Roadster, Musk just funded it.
      - singlow 6y ago
        In what way did they "have the Roadster" in February 2004, 6 months after the first two founders started the company and 9 months before it was named Tesla? At the point that Musk joined they were still working with a TZero converted to a lithium battery pack.
  - drcross 6y ago
    >He's a businessman, not a scientist How can you even say that? I've heard more scientific discussions out of him compared to all the other CEO's I've ever heard speak combined. Musk has a head for physics and numbers and can easily come up with calculations for classical mechanics, material technology, information theory off the top of your head. For you to say the contrary is doublespeak.

dkonofalski 6y ago

I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well. As currently designed, "Autopilot" requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel, provide rotational counter-weight on it, and you have to agree to safety and attention disclaimers before you can even enable the features. Yes, there are absolutely misconceptions that may happen with the general public who think that "Autopilot" is completely autonomous but anyone who actually owns the vehicle and has the ability to drive with it would have to be willingly negligent in order to consider it "dangerous" or "deceptive". As an example, someone posted a link as a comment to the OP stating that Elon has been marketing Teslas as FSD when, in reality, the blog post in question just says that every Tesla has the hardware that makes it capable of it and that's absolutely true. You're right that the general public auto-translates "Autopilot" to "Fully Self-Driving" but that's just as much a media and reporting problem as it is a Tesla or Elon problem.

bakuninsbart 6y ago
Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". The etymology of the word automatic is also very telling. Generally we ascribe meaning to words by how people use it, and I'm not sure I'd call marketers people.
- dkonofalski 6y ago
  Is a car now interchangeable with "aircraft, spacecraft, or ships"?
  - callalex 6y ago
    Yes.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". This is describing cruise control.

some-guy 6y ago

> It's a disgrace and one of many many many reasons why Tesla needs to outright fire Musk. I drove a co-worker's Tesla and I loved it--and I will never buy one for the reasons you mentioned. I'm glad Tesla exists to force other automakers to compete on the electric front, but that's the extent of my admiration for them.

Shivetya 6y ago
I bought one in spite of Musk, simply put the technology of the car and that it brought back memories as a kid of all the cool concept cars that never got built sold me. That is performs so well it just a bonus. I feel like I am driving the future day in and day out. However I think that only does Musk misrepresent what the technology is capable of and the timeline I think that many quality of life features are missing simply because if he does not want it no one wants it; my bugaboo has been the poor support for bluetooth music from phones. It was only recently that a Tesla owner could select what track within a play list to play; they still cannot select the playlist, artist, and more, which are features common in every day cars and for many years. I have no plans on giving up my Tesla soon, I am looking forward to the Audi BEV TT so I can put convertible and EV together. That is 2023 at the earliest. At least Tesla is forcing the hands of other automakers PS: I would go so far as to state I believe the 8k cost they apply to full self driving is to convince people it really does what he claims. As in, it can only be so expensive because it must work. That 8k is also why I won't consider a new Telsa, originally I figured a Y would be nice PPS: I am sure besides myself many of us have posted here and elsewhere that the name "Autopilot" implied far too much. Glad some court stepped in and said stop it PPPS: Kind of fun a German court upheld this, considering all the years their own auto industry was committing outright fraud
- jacquesm 6y ago
  > I think that only does Musk I think you dropped a 'not' in there.
- birdyrooster 6y ago
  People using their childhood dreams as an excuse to be functional sociopaths doesn't cut it. https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/30/20891314/elon-musk-tesla-labor-violation-nlrb https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/30/20891314/elon-musk-... https://www.elonmusk.today https://www.elonmusk.today

dreamer7 6y ago

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman Sorry to nitpick but highly knowledgeable people will surely never claim Musk is an idiot anything. He is definitely a genius in several ways. For something so technologically advanced as self-driving cars, his stuttering style seems to convey more sincerity to the general public than Steve Job's glib speech ever would

dave5104 6y ago
Musk isn't an idiot, he's overseen some great things at the companies he runs, and I hope the companies he's running continue pushing technology forward. But Musk as a human isn't so great. He'd do better to keep his mouth shut sometimes, and lay off Twitter every now and again. Between falsely accusing people of being pedophiles, claiming to take Tesla private in a tweet, and various other "incidents", he's kind of an idiot when it comes to PR.
- drcross 6y ago
  >But Musk as a human isn't so great. I would be very hesitant to criticise someone who has arguably done/will do more for the continuation for humanity than anyone else who has ever lived. Maybe it's your definition of "isn't great" that needs re-calibration.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    Impressive case of Poe’s Law here.
  - itsoktocry 6y ago
    >who has arguably done/will do more for the continuation for humanity than anyone else who has ever lived. Because he's building some electric cars? How low is your bar?
    - cjhopman 6y ago
      But you don't understand. Car analysts since the early 90s have been saying that electric cars would become profitable and become a serious chunk of the market by 2020 because they all knew that musk was going to come along and show us how great electric cars are and save the world.

baxtr 6y ago

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman That and the richest man on the planet. What does this tell about us as a species? Some compare him to the late Jobs. I think this couldn’t be farther from the truth.

azernik 6y ago
He not quite the richest man on the planet - that's Jeff Bezos. 16-richest, from the last Forbes ranking that shows up on Google.

lazyjones 6y ago

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman The same "highly knowledgable people" who have been shorting TSLA and parroting that the company is going broke any moment now, surely. I'm actually surprised people aren't ashamed to write such utter nonsense in a place like HN.

hef19898 6y ago
Well, shorting Tesla was a bet. As was investing in it. A bet that had serious foundations, with Tesla potentially running out of money.
ojnabieoot 6y ago
Look I really don't have a dog in the $TSLA or Tesla fight - I have no investments in the stock market and due to a disability I cannot drive a car. My grievance is with celebrity CEO worship, and in giving CEO credit for labor's accomplishments (which is particularly egregious in the case of SpaceX). Being an idiot conman and being a technical genius are not mutually exclusive. And clearly being an idiot conman and being the CEO of a valuable company aren't mutually exclusive. Musk's idiotic conning has repeatedly gotten Tesla into serious legal trouble, including running a con - and it's a plain con job - about Tesla's autonomous vehicle capabilities. I know I am being mean to Elon by calling him an idiot and if I were trying to be neutral I might say "recklessly dishonest." But facts are facts.
- lazyjones 6y ago
  > I know I am being mean to Elon by calling him an idiot [...] But facts are facts. You are not being mean, just silly. Elon clearly isn't an "idiot" however you stretch the meaning of the word, he's a highly capable and successful man and has demonstrated repeatedly his skill, both in engineering and entrepreneurship. And your opinion isn't a fact.
  - ojnabieoot 6y ago
    I am copying another comment of mine to address this. The point is that I am calling Musk an idiot because he has a long history of being an idiot. The comment was more addressing him also being an obvious con artist, but I think his idiocy shines through. ~~~ [...]I am not denying that he is talented and he probably has a > 105 IQ. The Autopilot controversy is just a straight con job, and a very stupid one. The BS about the $420 stock price was a horrendously stupid con job. His disinformation mongering about coronavirus - when he is smart enough to know the truth - is also a con job, both for his fans and his workers. Deliberately under-counting workers injuries at Tesla plants is conning safety regulators - it's not as dumb as Elon's other cons, but it's a con. Removing safety markers because Elon doesn't like them aesthetically is maybe not a con job but it is remarkably idiotic. The PR-motivated stuff about Musk engineering a solution to those kids trapped in Thailand - straight-up con job, and one that blew up in his face due to his idiotic and narcissitic use of Twitter. Hyperloop (remember that?) was always a con job, and one that was so transparently stupid that nobody but Musk could have gotten away with it. I could go on. The point is that I am calling Musk an "idiot conman" because of a) his well-documented affinity for conning his customers, fans, investors, and government agencies b) his well-documented acts of being a huge idiot, including in his planning and execution of most of the above con jobs

jacquesm 6y ago

It goes further than that: and then, when - predictably - people die the company turns around and engages in the most terrible form of victim blaming I've ever seen, to suggest that those consumers should have known better than to believe their marketing.

haecceity 6y ago

Isn't airplane autopilot only used when there's no traffic around. An analogous autopilot for cars would never be used unless if you're in an empty parking lot.

Symmetry 6y ago
Yes, anybody who has used an autopilot on a boat or airplane will understand that they work exactly the same way the "autopilot" on a Tesla works. But that's not how the general public understand the word and so Tesla shouldn't have used it in advertising copy aimed at the general public.

bredren 6y ago

Some of your points are valid though saying he is an idiot and a conman undercuts your statement. The man is no idiot, and while some of the things he has said have not come true, or not been true to begin with, i do not think it is not reasonable to describe him as a “conman.”

ojnabieoot 6y ago
See above about being an idiot and being a genius not being mutually exclusive. I am not denying that he is talented and he probably has a > 105 IQ. The Autopilot controversy is just a straight con job, and a very stupid one. The BS about the $420 stock price was a horrendously stupid con job. His disinformation mongering about coronavirus - when he is smart enough to know the truth - is also a con job, both for his fans and his workers. Deliberately under-counting workers injuries at Tesla plants is conning safety regulators - it's not as dumb as Elon's other cons, but it's a con. Removing safety markers because Elon doesn't like them aesthetically is maybe not a con job but it is remarkably idiotic. The PR-motivated stuff about Musk engineering a solution to those kids trapped in Thailand - straight-up con job, and one that blew up in his face due to his idiotic and narcissitic use of Twitter. Hyperloop (remember that?) was always a con job, and one that was so transparently stupid that nobody but Musk could have gotten away with it. I could go on. The point is that I am calling Musk an "idiot conman" because of a) his well-documented affinity for conning his customers, fans, investors, and government agencies b) his well-documented acts of being a huge idiot, including in his planning and execution of most of the above con jobs

wittyreference 6y ago

> let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice There's a very odd tendency for people to engage with corporate PR packages in the same way they engage in interpersonal interactions. In the abstract, sure, they get that it's a crafted artifact meant to maximize profits, but in the immediate sense... they act as though the words have any intrinsic meaning at all rather than "white noise that maximizes likelihood of profit, while ideally not instigating litigation or regulation." It's not unique to Tesla. It's every single time a major corp. issues a significant public statement, as though it's some sort of earnest missive from the founder rather than a PR-crafted artifact vetted by legal, compliance, and probably the COO and CMO, if not a board member or two. Corps are profit-maximizing engines. They are not your buddies. They are not speaking from the heart. They're not even spinning something that started off as something from the heart. They are designing cognitive drone strikes meant to optimize public reception of current business practices.

rsynnott 6y ago
> rather than a PR-crafted artifact vetted by legal, compliance I mean, if THIS was vetted by legal and compliance, they’re, er, probably not very good.
bluGill 6y ago
Many companies have learned (the hard way) that public statements are admissible to court. All public statements from most big companies go through many levels of checking to ensure they don't send a wrong message. I know of one case where the warning label on a lawnmower that rocks can be thrown conflicted with the advertising picture of a kid close to a lawnmower and therefore the company doesn't believe that warning lable. I'm not sure what came of it (probably settled out of court for big $$$). However many companies are careful what they say.
- wittyreference 6y ago
  I'm not saying they're wrong to be careful. If my words could shift the share price of an entire enterprise, I'd have them damn carefully vetted, too. I'm saying that their words are very carefully crafted, and should be engaged with as the product of artifice, not genuine expression.

ummonk 6y ago

The people who claim airplane autopilots work similarly are flat out lying. Pilots can briefly take their attention away from the plane without issue. They have to be present and ready to intervene but not constantly closely monitoring what the aircraft is doing. There is a very real difference in the amount of attention required.

phire 6y ago
That is more about how planes and cars are different than about how plane and Tesla autopilots are different. When driving a car, if you take your hands off a car, you will crash within seconds. Either you will come to a corner, or the shape of the road will just cause you to drift off. You are always zooming past obstacles that are meters away from you. Often less. Planes are different. Even without an autopilot, the pilots have trim wheels that allow them to adjust all the surfaces so the plane flys excatly level and stable when they aren't touching the controls. So even without an autopilot, the plane is able to fly for minutes at a time without the pilot touching the controls. Eventually the balance will change, fuel is burns and the wind conditions might change, but these things happen slowly. All the autopilot really does is extend the amount of time the pilots can avoid touching the controls from minutes to hours. The other major difference with planes is the available recovery time from any issue is much longer, at least when not landing/taking off. When planes are near the ground the pilots are require to pay just as much attention as Tesla drivers are, actually far more attention. But when planes are at high altitude, pilots have tens of seconds to detect something is going wrong, disengage the autopilot and correct the attitude. There are no obstacles. ATC keeps other planes far away. But with cars, you are always seconds away from hitting an object. The driver needs to be able to take over from the autopilot instantly. Plane autopilots work great for planes. They simply don't transfer over to cars. The operating environment is completely different.