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This is the latest argument from people who claim cancel culture doesn't exist. "How are you being silenced when everyone will read it from your high perch?" H

This is the latest argument from people who claim cancel culture doesn't exist. "How are you being silenced when everyone will read it from your high perch?" High-level writers need to push back against illiberal and anti-free speech proponents to give cover for the lower ranks. If even the top tier writers can't speak their mind, does the lowly intern or new hire stand a chance?

deleuze 6y ago
I'll start caring more about this "silencing" once the NYT editorial board starts including viewpoints that are actually silenced in our society. Until then, it's just whining about no longer being free from criticism.
- seibelj 6y ago
  The "I concede you may be right but I simply don't care" argument, a form of "what-about-ism". It's possible to believe in free speech and want to promote marginalized voices simultaneously. You don't need to silence disagreement.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  What viewpoints? Are we just supposed to guess, or automatically know which viewpoints you mean?
  - orwin 6y ago
    Communism division of work, central planning for college-level education? Worker cooperative can be more efficient than traditional company in some sectors, did you ever read any piece on that? I mean, the two time i went in the US, i was in really liberal and even socialist environment, and very few seems to even have heard of worker cooperative, so it would be surprising, but HN always surprise me positively, so why not.
    - jimbokun 6y ago
      This google search brings up several pieces from nytimes.com: "worker cooperatives site:nytimes.com"
jakelazaroff 6y ago
The problem with this rebuttal is that it assumes that the high–level writers and editors are not themselves the illiberal and anti–speech proponents, gatekeeping what perspectives are allowed to be represented in the first place. For example: Harper's Magazine, which published the recent open letter on cancel culture that Bari Weiss signed, doesn't pay its interns [1], ensuring that only those who can afford to work for free are allowed on the lowest rung of the ladder. If these high–level writers were truly concerned about open debate and a culture of curiosity, they might be more concerned about breaking down barriers such as that. Instead, they're worried that they, the people already at the top of the ladder, might get knocked down to the same level as the rest of us. [1] https://harpers.org/about/internships/ https://harpers.org/about/internships/
- pas 6y ago
  "Cancel culture" doesn't mean no word from them for ever after. It means they get demoted, dismissed, let go, fired, etc. People are losing positions, jobs, power, control, income, reputation, titles and whatnot because of various reasons. Usually due to the pressure of a largely invisible mob. For example the case of Stephen Hsu ( https://statenews.com/article/2020/06/michigan-state-geu-calls-to-remove-vp-research-administrator-stephen-hsu?ct=content_open&cv=cbox_latest https://statenews.com/article/2020/06/michigan-state-geu-cal... ) ... I have no idea if he's right or not, but it's true he's bad at PR and science communication. We know how regular big of a backstabbing parade the regular old natural science community is (string theory boo/yaay, money for colliders, SUSY, ITER/fusion vs something else). So it's not a surprise that social-adjacent science is even more hardcore in this regard, but this is likely too much and too fast. Yes, sure activism and change needs momentum, but people will be surprised when the hysteresis rears its head due to over-dampening. But this has happened already many times (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sociobiology:_The_New_Synthesis&oldid=950326477#Reception https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sociobiology:_The... and here's an another example https://www.reddit.com/r/gwern/comments/hoeqyg/stereotype_accuracy_one_of_the_largest_and_most/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gwern/comments/hoeqyg/stereotype_ac... ) and likely will happen again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also, note, I'm not saying we shouldn't raise the bar for public (and semi-public) discourse. For example, as far as I know, adopting Codes of Conduct turned out to be quite okay, it laid the foundation for the way to deal with problems, gave a structure and rules to point at when someone crosses a line.
specialist 6y ago
"Cancel culture" has always existed. Socrates was literally canceled. And we're still talking about him. Any one challenging power should probably play to win. Edit: Spoiler for all the kids: Your generation didn't invite sex either.

deleuze 6y ago

I'll start caring more about this "silencing" once the NYT editorial board starts including viewpoints that are actually silenced in our society. Until then, it's just whining about no longer being free from criticism.

seibelj 6y ago
The "I concede you may be right but I simply don't care" argument, a form of "what-about-ism". It's possible to believe in free speech and want to promote marginalized voices simultaneously. You don't need to silence disagreement.
jimbokun 6y ago
What viewpoints? Are we just supposed to guess, or automatically know which viewpoints you mean?
- orwin 6y ago
  Communism division of work, central planning for college-level education? Worker cooperative can be more efficient than traditional company in some sectors, did you ever read any piece on that? I mean, the two time i went in the US, i was in really liberal and even socialist environment, and very few seems to even have heard of worker cooperative, so it would be surprising, but HN always surprise me positively, so why not.
  - jimbokun 6y ago
    This google search brings up several pieces from nytimes.com: "worker cooperatives site:nytimes.com"

jakelazaroff 6y ago

The problem with this rebuttal is that it assumes that the high–level writers and editors are not themselves the illiberal and anti–speech proponents, gatekeeping what perspectives are allowed to be represented in the first place. For example: Harper's Magazine, which published the recent open letter on cancel culture that Bari Weiss signed, doesn't pay its interns [1], ensuring that only those who can afford to work for free are allowed on the lowest rung of the ladder. If these high–level writers were truly concerned about open debate and a culture of curiosity, they might be more concerned about breaking down barriers such as that. Instead, they're worried that they, the people already at the top of the ladder, might get knocked down to the same level as the rest of us. [1] https://harpers.org/about/internships/ https://harpers.org/about/internships/

pas 6y ago
"Cancel culture" doesn't mean no word from them for ever after. It means they get demoted, dismissed, let go, fired, etc. People are losing positions, jobs, power, control, income, reputation, titles and whatnot because of various reasons. Usually due to the pressure of a largely invisible mob. For example the case of Stephen Hsu ( https://statenews.com/article/2020/06/michigan-state-geu-calls-to-remove-vp-research-administrator-stephen-hsu?ct=content_open&cv=cbox_latest https://statenews.com/article/2020/06/michigan-state-geu-cal... ) ... I have no idea if he's right or not, but it's true he's bad at PR and science communication. We know how regular big of a backstabbing parade the regular old natural science community is (string theory boo/yaay, money for colliders, SUSY, ITER/fusion vs something else). So it's not a surprise that social-adjacent science is even more hardcore in this regard, but this is likely too much and too fast. Yes, sure activism and change needs momentum, but people will be surprised when the hysteresis rears its head due to over-dampening. But this has happened already many times (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sociobiology:_The_New_Synthesis&oldid=950326477#Reception https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sociobiology:_The... and here's an another example https://www.reddit.com/r/gwern/comments/hoeqyg/stereotype_accuracy_one_of_the_largest_and_most/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gwern/comments/hoeqyg/stereotype_ac... ) and likely will happen again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also, note, I'm not saying we shouldn't raise the bar for public (and semi-public) discourse. For example, as far as I know, adopting Codes of Conduct turned out to be quite okay, it laid the foundation for the way to deal with problems, gave a structure and rules to point at when someone crosses a line.

specialist 6y ago

"Cancel culture" has always existed. Socrates was literally canceled. And we're still talking about him. Any one challenging power should probably play to win. Edit: Spoiler for all the kids: Your generation didn't invite sex either.