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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

858 points by camjohnson26 6y ago

iamaziz 6y ago
That explains why Germany makes best cars in the world.
jaimex2 6y ago
Guess they will need to apply the same to Airbus as the two systems both function in the same way.
Shaigyheart 6y ago
Is it true
bhuvensh 6y ago
Bhuvemsh
noisy_boy 6y ago
They should call it "DriveAssist" because thats what it is instead of layering autonomy with Autopilot (for that matter, even Copilot carries similar underlying semantics).
runeks 6y ago
> Tesla’s Chief Executive Elon Musk said this month the electric car manufacturer was close to making its cars capable of automated driving without any need for driver input, so-called Level 5 autonomy. I suspect we will remain “close to” autonomous cars for several decades.
danielovichdk 6y ago
German is a huge car manufactoring country. Wonder if they feel a bit of a threat from Tesla on certain points and wish to control their inner markets. On the other hand, Tesla doesn't come close to driving an Audi, BMW or MB. Neither tech-wise. It might be the choice for the nerd or the socalled envitonmentalist, but for people that don't have time for reloading batteries all the time, it's a toy car.
kwhitefoot 6y ago
So no quotes either from what Tesla said or what the court said. Bit of a useless article.
H8crilA 6y ago
Tesla has been selling level 5 autonomy since 2016. I can see nothing wrong with that. Definitely not vaporware /s https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now...
- frenchy 6y ago
  I'm not sure it should be called level 5 autonomy until Tesla is willing to take responsibility for any accidents it causes.
  - sjwright 6y ago
    This is correct. The driver is responsible when their actions—in contravention of the road rules—cause an accident. If a vehicle is L5, the only "driver" is software. This software would need to attain a driver license just like a human would. Thus software becomes the vehicle's legal driver for the purpose of accountability in an accident. Tesla is absolutely willing to take responsibility. You'll have to use Tesla as your car insurance provider, but it'll be cheaper than anyone else's insurance so that's fine. Why would it be cheaper? Because they're insuring a driver that never gets angry, never gets distracted, doesn't drink and has high resolution dash cams pointing in every direction and capturing every moment. Even as the software is imperfect, it's going to have so many fewer accidents that the statistical risk of insuring the entire fleet is going to be minuscule compared to random humans.
  - H8crilA 6y ago
    Not sure about that, but I'm sure it's not "full self driving capability". It has not been the case ever since they started advertising in 2016.
    - rtkwe 6y ago
      I mean looking at it it would be a good litmus test for how confident any automaker is in their tech, if the driver is still liable for crashes it implies the driver isn't fully out of the loop which is what I'd expect to be true if we're actually living up to the Autopilot name.
dkonofalski 6y ago
I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception (possibly better) than what's happening now. As it stands, it's misleading and, frankly, disappointing to get into a Tesla for the first time and try "Autopilot" only to realize that you have to keep your hands on the wheel, navigate the accelerator and brakes, stop at lights and stop signs, and basically drive the car while it keeps you in the lane and stops you from hitting other cars. That's not "Autopilot", that's "CoPilot".
- kirillzubovsky 6y ago
  I was reading somewhere that a while back Germany classified "autopilot" to be at least Level 4, where's in case of emergency the car needs to be able to take and maintain control for a least X-time duration. Under those rules Tesla does not qualify, and neither do other manufacturers. However, if the rules are rules, it would be unfair that Tesla gets to advertise something that others aren't allowed to.
- rising-sky 6y ago
  Uhm, it's "similar" to how autopilot works on commercial airplanes. And they have two human pilots.
- the8472 6y ago
  We should actually look at the court's reasoning (which I can't find referenced anywhere in the news articles). I doubt it singularly revolves around the interpretation of the word autopilot.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > They should have called it "CoPilot" [rather than "AutoPilot"] Huh but a co-pilot is much more capable than an auto-pilot system. An auto-pilot mostly keeps you level, going the right speed, and pointing in the right direction, and can do some limited landing and things. That sounds to me exactly like what Tesla's system does? A co-pilot is a human who can take complete control from you for the rest of the whole flight and deal with any emergency or unexpected situation. The co-pilot is much more advanced than the autopilot.
notRobot 6y ago
> The Munich court agreed with the industry body’s assessment and banned Tesla Germany from including “full potential for autonomous driving” and “Autopilot inclusive” in its German advertising materials. Fully autonomous driving won't be here for _at least_ half a decade so this judgement makes complete sense. Tesla was engaged in flase advertising.
- vmception 6y ago
  any idea if these materials were in German or in English?
  - Leherenn 6y ago
    It was in German. Very few countries run adverts in languages different from the local ones, especially in the big European countries.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- gardaani 6y ago
  Only five days ago Elon Musk claimed that "we will have the basic functionality for level five autonomy complete this year." (yeah..!) https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53349313 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53349313
  - croes 6y ago
    Didn't he claim the same last year and the year before?
    - Vysero 6y ago
      Really? You're guna bet against Elon Musk? You really think that's wise? XD
itchyjunk 6y ago
Do regulators have an idea of what test a car needs to pass to be able to claim certain things? It there were levels of tests and passing each gave you better rating, that might give everyone an idea of there the system is. But most of the talks about this type of stuff seems to be gut feeling rating. Someone will say they think some car/software is good, other's will say it's no where close and the conversation ends there. It is also possible that updates can make software worse than it was before right? Say a software does pass some test. But how do you know it's still as good or better after some update? Is the problem we know for sure if has specific issues or it is more that we have no idea where it might fail while randomly driving? Are all this problems considered solvable in short term?
- Barrin92 6y ago
  >Do regulators have an idea of what test a car needs to pass to be able to claim certain things? It there were levels of tests and passing each gave you better rating, that might give everyone an idea of there the system is. The 'five levels' of autonomy are fairly well established by now. Full autonomy generally is defined as driving capability that does not involve human attention, that is to say it is what the name suggests, the vehicle drives itself, you could ship it to the consumer without a steering wheel.
  - voqv 6y ago
    Likely can't ship. The Vienna Convention on Road Traffic prohibits fully driverless cars [1], I assume the US has something similar. Cruise is still waiting for their waiver to have cars without a steering wheel and that's not even for consumers. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Traffic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Traf...
    - bearjaws 6y ago
      Here in the states, its at the state level what is allowed. We have autonomous vehicle testing in pretty much any state that allows it.
- 6y ago
bgorman 6y ago
I wonder how much BMW/Daimler/Volkswagen had to do with this. It is a common practice for technology companies to offer features that will only become available after a certain time period. It actually takes time and money to build these features. I'm sure the fact that BMW/Daimler/VW have completely botched their EV/Autonomous vehicle strategy and the automotive industry is Germany's cash cow has nothing at all to do with the court's decision. Disclosure: I do not any automotive companies stock, and I am a dual US/German citizen.
- csunbird 6y ago
  Whether the decision was influenced by German car makers, I think the decision is correct. The car is not fully autonomous and requires your hands on the wheel all the times.
- chki 6y ago
  > I'm sure the fact that BMW/Daimler/VW have completely botched their EV/Autonomous vehicle strategy and the automotive industry is Germany's cash cow has nothing at all to do with the court's decision. What are you implying? That the German Court felt pressured by the Auto Lobby to take this decision? That the judges were biased? Bribed? Vague statements like this are very unhelpful, because you can't argue against them but they try to make a point anyway.
  - bgorman 6y ago
    I am implying that governments (including court systems) often make decisions directly and indirectly to protect domestic companies at the expense of foreign companies.
  - filoleg 6y ago
    > That the German Court felt pressured by the Auto Lobby to take this decision? Probably that + the constituents. When a very large chunk of your constituents are employed by local car manufacturing companies, letting those companies fail and lose to a foreign competitor not only loses money for those companies, it also puts a threat of unemployment on your voting population. Lobbying from local car companies + your voting population's employment dependent on success of those local car companies is a very strong combination. EDIT: to clarify, I am aware that judges in Germany are not elected, I wasn't implying that judges would support the ban just get re-elected. I meant it to say that the judge could see it not only as some lobbying effort, but also as a move to protect interests of the working people they are serving.
mrtksn 6y ago
This was probably the most brilliant advertising scheme of all times. Tesla is not just an electric car, it's the self driving car brand - even if it doesn't actually do that. I believe banning this kind of advertisement will only cement Tesla's image as the "Self Driving Car company" as no other company would be able to replicate it. People will continue to post memes about self driving Teslas but no one else would be able to claim anything like that up until they actually make a self driving car, and if they do it before Tesla, when people hear about it they will say "Oh cool!, So just like a Tesla?".
- xinsight 6y ago
  Or it backfires when people realize their newly purchased, expensive car doesn't do what they thought it could do. Tesla is not managing expectations well.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    That's what the 7 day return period is for.
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  > This was probably the most brilliant advertising scheme of all times. Tesla is not just an electric car, it's the self driving car brand - even if it doesn't actually do that. Acting with total disregard for the safety of your users and violating laws around false advertising is not "brilliant." It wasn't "brilliant" when Bill Gates browbeat manufacturers to bundle Internet Explorer with Windows, even if he made a lot of money. It wasn't "brilliant" when Mark Zuckerberg broke the law to snoop on users phones and sell their data to advertisers, even if he used some of that money to buy a private island. And if I distract my opponent and steal their bishop, I don't become a brilliant chess player if I win the match. Like Musk, Zuckerberg, and Gates, I would just be a massive jerk.
SheinhardtWigCo 6y ago
Good. These statements are lies. The company should face punishment in the US for saying that full self-driving is blocked by “regulatory approval” when they’re still an unknown number of years away from even being able to demo something they plan to ship. They still don’t know if full self-driving is even possible at the required level of reliability with their current hardware suite. They could well be wrong and sitting on a scandal that will eclipse Theranos.
- tenuousemphasis 6y ago
  Which statements? This is what they say when you select the full self driving option when ordering a car: >The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    We need to break this down and examine it part by part and in whole as it’s extremely ambiguous to me what this is saying.
    - tenuousemphasis 6y ago
      Go ahead and read it slowly a few times. It's clear to me.
  - SheinhardtWigCo 6y ago
    All Tesla vehicles have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances - https://www.tesla.com/model3 https://www.tesla.com/model3 Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really. - https://www.tesla.com/model3/design https://www.tesla.com/model3/design Tesla will be able to make its vehicles completely autonomous by the end of this year, founder Elon Musk has said. - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53349313 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53349313
natch 6y ago
Can someone provide a link to a Tesla advertisement? Haven't seen this.
- FabHK 6y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/de_de/models https://www.tesla.com/de_de/models > Hardware für autonomes Fahren Jedes neue Model S verfügt standardmäßig über modernste Hardware, um die Autopilot-Funktionalität schon heute und vollkommen autonomes Fahren in der Zukunft zu ermöglichen. Software-Updates werden diese Funktionalität im Laufe der Zeit weiter ausbauen und verbessern. > Die Autopilot-Funktionalität ermöglicht dem Fahrzeug automatisches Lenken, Beschleunigen und Bremsen auf seiner Spur. Die Funktionalität für autonomes Fahren bietet zusätzliche Merkmale und erweitert bestehende Funktionen, um Ihrem Fahrzeug weitere Fähigkeiten zu verleihen. Looks like a pretty close translation of the same thing on the US site: https://www.tesla.com/models https://www.tesla.com/models > Full Self-Driving Hardware Every new Model S comes standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time. > Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane. Full Self-Driving Capability introduces additional features and improves existing functionality to make your car more capable over time including:
  - natch 6y ago
    That’s a web site though, not an advertisement. Was asking about advertisements.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      In general, for the purposes of regulating advertisement, everything a company says about a product is advertisement. Whether they put it on their website or a billboard is largely irrelevant.
    - rootusrootus 6y ago
      How is that not an advertisement? It seems like a textbook example.
simion314 6y ago
I am wondering if a regular person when is thinking about autopilot term in a car is thinking at movies and not at aircrafts. In SciFi/spy movies autopilot means the ship or car is piloting itself and you can do something else.
- ilikehurdles 6y ago
  Sure, they probably do. But more problematic is what does an average person think when they read "Full Self-Driving Capability" and "Includes the Full Self Driving Computer"?
  - simion314 6y ago
    Yeah, but the "autopilot" claim will spawn a large numbers of fanboys with dictionaries and definition trying to defend Tesla's marketing department , the terms you mentioned will mostly get the mention of some text message you have to click OK on when you start using the car.
antpls 6y ago
That's hypocrisy from the German court. This is 100% a push from German car industry lobby. Note that the case wasn't started from consumer complaints, it was instead started by an industrial group. I bet all Tesla buyers are aware about what they are actually buying. They can return the car and get a refund if they are not pleased with it. This ban is bullshit considering that many ads in many industries are deceptive, including healthcare. Tesla is punished only because it is a direct competitor of German cars.
- benzor 6y ago
  Please try refuting the ruling on its reasoning instead of peddling conspiracy theories.
- croes 6y ago
  Some of the tesla car accidents prove the opposite.
  - richardrk 6y ago
    Exactly! Here is something to support that: https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/
- SheinhardtWigCo 6y ago
  Deceptive healthcare ads aren’t allowed in Europe either. Consumer protection standards are much higher.
  - antpls 6y ago
    They are not allowed, but it doesn't stop deceptive ads. Here is an example in French pharmacy : https://www.pourquoidocteur.fr/Articles/Question-d-actu/30796-Les-probiotiques-vendus-pharmacie-sont-ils-vraiment-bons-microbiote https://www.pourquoidocteur.fr/Articles/Question-d-actu/3079... "Probiotic" term has been banned on ads and packages. Those products are now sold as "Ultrabiotic" or other variants. Same product, same impact on consumer, but legal.
  - 6y ago
ken47 6y ago
It's unsurprising that Germany isn't as tolerant of "growth hack" advertising as the US. Many Tesla owners are smart enough to realize that their cars can't actually drive themselves. But those few who buy into the marketing and ignore the fine print pose a risk to themselves and the drivers around them.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
aiisahik 6y ago
To all those who harp on Tesla's statements being false - you completely missed the point: full use of the Streisand Effect for free advertising.
- refurb 6y ago
  ?? I don’t recall Tesla trying to silence talk about autonomous driving. I mean, that’s the definition of Streisand Effect.
- kilotaras 6y ago
  I believe that Tesla would prefer no advertising to "German court declared our claims about car capabilities a lie."
- ilikehurdles 6y ago
  If anything this clarifies to people who thought that teslas could self-drive that this is incorrect and that their ads are deceptive. Tesla is pretty well known now so it's not exactly a positive look. Someone who planned to buy a Tesla based on its marketing might now consider one of the other EVs on the horizon.
libertine 6y ago
When are we going to address the elephant in the room? Advertising regulators aren't able to regulate, or arre taking too long to regulate, and we're leaving this to platforms. When it should be done by a regulator, and fines should be applied to both the advertiser and the media owner - BECAUSE YES, media owners/platforms have the responsibility and should abide by law. I'm looking at Google/Facebook. If platforms can't do it, too bad on them, pay up. False advertising is alive and well, and it's encouraged. People are being defrauded and we're whistling.
- FriendlyNormie 6y ago
  The bigger elephant in the room is that we should have no sympathy for the retards who fall for false advertising and just let them die off from autopilot disasters so that only people who are naturally immune to such deception stay alive to influence the culture and pass on their genes. Unfortunately “all lives matter” people like you will never accept this.
elishuseynoff 6y ago
))
kabes 6y ago
Not a lot of companies can get away with selling $6000 packages on which they'll never be able to deliver.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  It's up to $8000 now.
- dlivingston 6y ago
  The Full Self Driving package is actually quite good. With the exception of going “hands free”, this is an accurate video on the current state of FSD: https://youtu.be/tlThdr3O5Qo https://youtu.be/tlThdr3O5Qo
  - neop1x 6y ago
    Sorry but 3-lane highway with constant flow of cars is very different to some Europe 2-lane highways with aggressive drivers changing lanes frequently. Also when shooting ads, you can do 50 trips and select only couple of "successful" ones where the driver intervention was not necessary. But the final video then does not reflect the real-life average experience.
  - ReidZB 6y ago
    Another huge difference: the current FSD feature set will not make turns at intersections as demonstrated in this video. It now (as of recently) can be configured to automatically stop at appropriate traffic signage (stop signs, red/yellow lights, not sure about yields). However, it won't make a left or right turn. Some caveats: sometimes it will still want to stop at a green light, in my experience, and requires a manual override; and, if you're the foremost car in your lane at a traffic light, it won't begin moving on its own. I assume the same is true for stop signs. I guess that video is intended to be a preview of what the current software could do with all the driver interaction safety switches off (no required hands on wheel, no requirement to confirm safety through intersections/turns, etc) and all the internal feature flags turned on (particularly: enabling turns and enabling Navigate on Autopilot on non-freeways).
  - 6y ago
adamqureshi 6y ago
Why not call Full Self Driving: "Future Self Driving". This way you don't need to make the claim. People will make the inference from FSD. If they can change FSD to mean. "Future Self Driving" Perhaps this will help them make it very clear what the FSD can do and cannot do. amiright?
kahlonel 6y ago
This is good, even though it could be a possible result of VW/BMW/Mercedes lobbying efforts. Human life safety is the top priority in any industry in Germany. Regulations are keeping Germany a little behind in the innovation race but, at the end, it is all worth it if people are not dying everyday because of failed tech.
billfor 6y ago
I wonder how many people complaining about Tesla's marketing actually have a Tesla. The car clearly makes you acknowledge that the driver is responsible before using any Autopilot/FSD capability, and if you bought the car with the expectation that it didn't , you have a return period to get your money back in full. It doesn't matter if they said it would take you to the moon and back. If you test drive or buy it and don't like it then just return it: no harm done.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  So, on that basis, all false advertising should be legal provided the manufacture includes a ‘yeah, we made that up, this is actually a toaster, not a time machine’ pamphlet?
- Kbelicius 6y ago
  > It doesn't matter if they said it would take you to the moon and back. Yes it does.
- twic 6y ago
  > It doesn't matter if they said it would take you to the moon and back. If you test drive or buy it and don't like it then just return it: no harm done. Under German law it seems that it does, in fact, matter.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  It does in Germany (as the ruling in question indicates). False advertising here is very much considered 'harm done' and no way to do business. Lying to the customer until she takes the product out of the box is in no way, shape or form how you operate in this country. (well I guess it was for wirecard which is embarassing enough) I do not want to live somewhere where I have to order ten things, three are fake, three I have to sent back, another few break and the last thing works.
  - viklove 6y ago
    Even in the US false advertising like OP suggests is considered fraudulent and against the law. There are just too many Musk fanboys around here that don't seem to know how the law works.
rho4 6y ago
I think / hope that Elon Musk wanted everyone to be crystal clear about the end goal from the outset. Go on public record about the ambition in a way that will push himself and his employees. Use language to drive vision and outcome.
- pbasista 6y ago
  I agree that presenting a vision and facing it with reality of what is currently possible is great because it may motivate people to try to achieve something better than they would normally think of. But misrepresenting the reality as if it already was reflecting the vision, when in fact it is not, bears in my opinion many signs of fraud. For example, consider someone who has a "vision of wine" and decides to sell bottles of grape juice which are supposed to represent that vision. They can have honest intention to fill those bottles with wine at some point in time. But as far as they in fact sell the grape juice, I think that it is reasonable to require them to clearly present it as such.
nixass 6y ago
Full autonomous driving is so far away that I don't know why people and media even talk about it.
- rtkwe 6y ago
  Because companies like Tesla keep claiming it's just around the bend...
  - kp98 6y ago
    and politicians that need a useful lie to leverage ie Yang stating all the driving jobs will be gone in 5 years lol
    - rtkwe 6y ago
      Trucking jobs are a little more vulnerable because theoretically highway driving to a depot or drop off is easier than city driving. Or there's an older idea of making convoy trucks where multiple semis follow one human piloted truck.
dlivingston 6y ago
While the average non-Tesla owner might be confused on phrases like “autopilot”, any Tesla owner is very aware of its capabilities and shortcomings. When you first purchase your Tesla and are beginning the setup process, you’re presented with multiple warning screens like this: https://boygeniusreport.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/autosteer-warning-tesla.jpg https://boygeniusreport.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/autostee... That’s an old image: I couldn’t find the current warning screen on Google Images, but it’s even more stark and serious about the driver’s role w.r.t. autopilot.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  So, after you buy the thing, it helpfully informs you that the advertising was bollocks? Seems like an excellent reason to ban the advertising.
- neop1x 6y ago
  Due to recent hype we decided to re-visit the state of Tesla. Our local Tesla seller told us a week ago (after our test drive) that FSD was awesome and that once the legislation in EU allowed it (bad guys in EU blocking the progress) and fullyfull-FSD was available, the price of the car would increase as much as 50% and that it was a great investment. Having some related tech knowledge we saw how utopian that still was and our test drive had convinced us self-driving was still at least 10 years away... It is false advertising and most younger tech enthusiasts may not see all the challenges involved in camera-based self-driving!
  - dlivingston 6y ago
    FSD is very cool. But Musk also parrots the idea that Teslas are investments, which makes no sense to me. Why would my $50k Model Y be worth $75k in 10 years, when a brand-new Model Y in 10 years would also cost $50k (assuming prices stay constant)?
- monkeyfacebag 6y ago
  Aren't the ads largely targeted to non-owners? Even if I agreed with your point, I just don't see how it's relevant.
hudon 6y ago
I own a Tesla and love it. Having said that, “full self driving” is so far off what it actually does it’s actually not just a marketing issue, it is a safety issue. I’ve had my Tesla drive towards an incoming lane, slam on the breaks in the middle of the highway with no cars in front of us, swerve into another lane with no warning, and probably other hiccups I don’t remember. I know now I not only need to keep my hands on the wheel but I need to actively make sure the car doesn’t kill us. And I know the car warned me the feature required awareness, but its name made me think it was way more developed and safe than it actually is, and that disconnect will surely cause other drivers to trust it more than they should.
- kevincox 6y ago
  This is what bothers me the most about "Autopilot". Marketing aside I think that this level of automation is in an uncanny valley of danger. It isn't good enough to take full control, but it is good enough that the driver feels safe enough to get distracted. I'm sure there are many of drivers who keep their full attention on the road, but in general humans are bad at focusing on tedious things that they don't feel are necessary.
- bjarneh 6y ago
  > I need to actively make sure the car doesn’t kill us Same experience here. Why people say this is relaxing; and takes the stress away from long distance driving is beyond me...
  - jiggawatts 6y ago
    When I test drove a Tesla for a weekend my opinion of the Autopilot was the same as the car's owner: "It drives like a learner driver". Just like the nervous parent teaching their teenager to drive, this is not a relaxing experience. However, the speed-adaptive cruise control is the best I've ever experienced. It maintains the set speed exactly, slows down for corners automatically, and follows the car in front as if there was a steel rod connecting the two vehicles. Using the cruise control in the Tesla was some of the most relaxing long-distance driving I've ever done in my life...
Robotbeat 6y ago
I think it’s poor for “autopilot.” That word has a long history. It really is the best existing word to use. But a fair ruling for “autonomous.” And I think the concerns HN people have with “autopilot” are in part due to the fact that the terms have not been properly contrasted by Tesla. Being more careful with “autonomous” and “self-driving” would help a lot with the confusion with the word “autopilot.”
- dragontamer 6y ago
  Tesla's not only calling their stuff "autopilot", but also "full self driving", which is probably the wrong way to describe their current implementation. Its a bit annoying to see people so fixated on the word "autopilot" when its clear that "full self driving" is complete and utter vaporware, a $5000 lie sold by the company.
  - valine 6y ago
    The reason many people buy the full self driving package is so they can experience the latest state of the art autonomous driving software as Tesla develops it, and Tesla continues to deliver on that promise. Smart summon and stopping for traffic control were both added recently as software updates. Even more recently they’ve improved the lane keeping performance on curvy roads, which is something nobody really mentions. Many of the problems people talk about like Tesla’s swerving out of the lane have been greatly improved in recent updates. There’s also the auto lane changes on the highway, which is really quite impressive to watch. Your car will automatically pass slow cars, move out of the passing lane when traffic clears up, and change lanes to follow your gps navigation. Not sure how you can call that vaporware.
    - dragontamer 6y ago
      https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280 >>> (Question from Twitter): Update on the coast to coast autopilot demo? >> Elon: Still on for end of year. Just software limited. Any Tesla car with HW2 (all cars built since Oct last year) will be able to do this. May, 2017. Elon bragging that "coast-to-coast" autonomous driving will be available by end of 2017. Straight up vaporware, a lie, no where close to done. We still have "Full Self Driving" cars crashing into the sides of trucks in 2020.
lazyjones 6y ago
The hate in this thread is staggering. Let's see you explain how "smart" your phone is...
kohlerm 6y ago
It's surprising that it took so long to identify this as a dangerous lie
martythemaniak 6y ago
Well, I'm gonna disagree. Let's quote wikipedia: > An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without requiring constant manual control by a human operator. Autopilot does not replace human operators. Instead, autopilot assists the operator's control of the vehicle, allowing the operator to focus on broader aspects of operations (for example, monitoring the trajectory, weather and on-board systems). This is 100% exactly what Tesla is selling. Instead of constant manual control you focus on the broader operations of your car. Even the colloquial use of "autopilot" makes it clear that being on autopilot means you're not paying very much attention: https://learnersdictionary.com/qa/what-does-on-autopilot-mean https://learnersdictionary.com/qa/what-does-on-autopilot-mea... Your car being on autopilot very much implies you still have to pay attention.
- temac 6y ago
  This argument is boring (because even if you were right, that's not what the public understands) but let's pretend it is not: so are you actually right? It's debatable. To fly a plane safely, you have to prioritize in the following order: aviate, navigate, communicate. An autopilot takes care of the aviate part (under some conditions) - and even bits of navigate in some case, but this is probably an easier problem actually. It can warn you when it is disengaging, so you have to be available, but you don't have to monitor actively at all time and with your full focus (as-if you fly manually) that it is working correctly and be able to disengage it yourself. Tesla "autopilot" does not take care of the aviate equivalent. It is believed so imperfect that you are supposed to stay extremely vigilant at all time, keep your hands on the wheel, look at the road as-if you were actually fully manually driving, and disengage it yourself if it attempts to kill you (or somebody else). My own judgment is that it is not an autopilot, by the most common parallel possible (with the autopilot of a plane). And again, that's probably not even very important. If most of the public believe a car autopilot is supposed not only to "aviate"-equivalent perfectly, but maybe even navigate on top of that, then Tesla, not even having reached the first part fully, should be just careful a little and chose some other wording. They don't, because they are completely playing on that. I found it even more than dishonest; I found it unethical.
- richardrk 6y ago
jacquesm 6y ago
Good. Not that it will stop Tesla from the next round of hype, from the most recent news we can expect level 5 autonomous driving soon. Maybe they'll call it 'autopilot'? Who will they blame when it doesn't work?
ping_pong 6y ago
His remarks talking about how Level 5 is fundamentally solved should be investigated by the FTC. I think he is purposefully and fraudulently saying that self-driving will be available to get more people to pay the $8000 for the self-driving software "before it goes up". They should make sure his statements are actually true otherwise he would be fined severely because to me, self-driving is decades away still.
- Traster 6y ago
  Never mind his $8000 self-driving packages, Tesla's share price is where the action is.
paulcole 6y ago
> All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver. From Tesla.com/autopilot in February of 2017. Absolutely shameful.
richardrk 6y ago
Good. This kind of advertising is misleading and was not only posing a risk for individuals but also for the sector of autonomous driving as a whole. I always feared that one more Tesla autopilot death might cause the public to generally distrust any company working in the field.
- neop1x 6y ago
  Exactly! That's why I am glad EU is very cautious in approving self-driving solutions. Yes, we need full self-driving and it doesn't look like an impossible task to achieve eventually. But it has to be done step by step, ensuring it behaves consistent and that the current limitations are well-understood by drivers. Bad reputation of some self-driving implementations could cause damage to the whole self-driving industry which would be bad.
subsubzero 6y ago
Auto-pilot is disingenuous at best, it should be labelled "driving assist" or something similar. I remember that one person in florida[1] where they died by having their tesla on "auto-pilot" and a tractor trailer truck collided and killed them while they were watching Harry Potter and not driving with their attention on the road. Would this person have died if the Auto-pilot feature was named something different? Who can say as people do dumb things on the road, but it could lead tesla to future lawsuits from similar events. [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-driver-killed-autopilot-self-driving-car-harry-potter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-dri...
mindfulplay 6y ago
Great. I hope they bring charges against Tesla for causing deaths that were completely avoidable. In fact we keep talking about AI ethics and so on. But we seem to have missed this very basic key ethical point: when Silicon Valley VC funded madness via AI/ML crap is pushed at breakneck speeds via these metal torpedoes, who is taking accountability? It's really amazing that Elon is worried about AI overlords when a 'simple' autopilot is not engineered to ethical standards. (Same goes for people like Andrej Karpathy and co who should take the blame and publicly apologize/resign). Shameful. Glad Germany is ahead of the curve.
- mleland 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, what part of the driving AI of tesla would you say is currently not lining up with ethical standards?
  - mindfulplay 6y ago
    The fact that they cannot disambiguate between a white truck and the sky color that killed an innocent driver is a starting point. I realize the drivers probably should be paying attention etc: but when Tesla falsely advertises (or worse by the toddler antics of Elon, portrays the optics of L5 automation); and drivers believe such advertisements then of course they wouldn't know that the car is much worse than promised.
maxharris 6y ago
If you actually believe that Tesla will fail to deliver full self-driving in the coming years, I have two questions. 1. have you watched this entire technical presentation made by Andrej Karpathy, Senior Director of AI at Tesla? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7BXih7zx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7BXih7zx8 2. if you understand what you've seen in that video, why do you think Tesla will fail?
- kirillzubovsky 6y ago
  As a Tesla owner, and regardless of the presentation, I have serious doubt that Tesla will be able to solve all the edge cases. Machine learning needs data, and with my family in the car, I don't want it to make a decision whether or not to break, while heading in ongoing traffic. I want the car to know. Right now, 99% reasonable self-driving doesn't bother me because I am always in control, and I already know where the car is going to mess up and get ready to take control ahead of time. It works, and it works really well. But the different between 100% and the 99% is all the difference that matters, and it's colossal. I hope they can figure this out, but I don't know how. I hope they do.
- agakshat 6y ago
  Whether or not a camera-based solution will work reliably in the future is not the issue at hand here. The issue is the vast, vast gap between the current capability of Autopilot vs. what it is marketed as, and how this false advertising can literally kill the average consumer.
  - grecy 6y ago
    > Whether or not a camera-based solution will work reliably in the future is not the issue at hand here. Actually, it is precisely the issue at hand: From the ruling: > The Munich court agreed with the industry body’s assessment and banned Tesla Germany from including “full potential for autonomous driving”.... in its German advertising materials. So Tesla are not allowed to advertise that it has the potential to do it in the future.
    - 6y ago
coronadisaster 6y ago
Tesla haven't been sued for this yet?

858 points by camjohnson26 6y ago

iamaziz 6y ago

That explains why Germany makes best cars in the world.

jaimex2 6y ago

Guess they will need to apply the same to Airbus as the two systems both function in the same way.

Shaigyheart 6y ago

Is it true

bhuvensh 6y ago

Bhuvemsh

noisy_boy 6y ago

They should call it "DriveAssist" because thats what it is instead of layering autonomy with Autopilot (for that matter, even Copilot carries similar underlying semantics).

runeks 6y ago

> Tesla’s Chief Executive Elon Musk said this month the electric car manufacturer was close to making its cars capable of automated driving without any need for driver input, so-called Level 5 autonomy. I suspect we will remain “close to” autonomous cars for several decades.

danielovichdk 6y ago

German is a huge car manufactoring country. Wonder if they feel a bit of a threat from Tesla on certain points and wish to control their inner markets. On the other hand, Tesla doesn't come close to driving an Audi, BMW or MB. Neither tech-wise. It might be the choice for the nerd or the socalled envitonmentalist, but for people that don't have time for reloading batteries all the time, it's a toy car.

kwhitefoot 6y ago

So no quotes either from what Tesla said or what the court said. Bit of a useless article.

H8crilA 6y ago

Tesla has been selling level 5 autonomy since 2016. I can see nothing wrong with that. Definitely not vaporware /s https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now...

frenchy 6y ago
I'm not sure it should be called level 5 autonomy until Tesla is willing to take responsibility for any accidents it causes.
- sjwright 6y ago
  This is correct. The driver is responsible when their actions—in contravention of the road rules—cause an accident. If a vehicle is L5, the only "driver" is software. This software would need to attain a driver license just like a human would. Thus software becomes the vehicle's legal driver for the purpose of accountability in an accident. Tesla is absolutely willing to take responsibility. You'll have to use Tesla as your car insurance provider, but it'll be cheaper than anyone else's insurance so that's fine. Why would it be cheaper? Because they're insuring a driver that never gets angry, never gets distracted, doesn't drink and has high resolution dash cams pointing in every direction and capturing every moment. Even as the software is imperfect, it's going to have so many fewer accidents that the statistical risk of insuring the entire fleet is going to be minuscule compared to random humans.
- H8crilA 6y ago
  Not sure about that, but I'm sure it's not "full self driving capability". It has not been the case ever since they started advertising in 2016.
  - rtkwe 6y ago
    I mean looking at it it would be a good litmus test for how confident any automaker is in their tech, if the driver is still liable for crashes it implies the driver isn't fully out of the loop which is what I'd expect to be true if we're actually living up to the Autopilot name.

dkonofalski 6y ago

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception (possibly better) than what's happening now. As it stands, it's misleading and, frankly, disappointing to get into a Tesla for the first time and try "Autopilot" only to realize that you have to keep your hands on the wheel, navigate the accelerator and brakes, stop at lights and stop signs, and basically drive the car while it keeps you in the lane and stops you from hitting other cars. That's not "Autopilot", that's "CoPilot".

kirillzubovsky 6y ago
I was reading somewhere that a while back Germany classified "autopilot" to be at least Level 4, where's in case of emergency the car needs to be able to take and maintain control for a least X-time duration. Under those rules Tesla does not qualify, and neither do other manufacturers. However, if the rules are rules, it would be unfair that Tesla gets to advertise something that others aren't allowed to.
rising-sky 6y ago
Uhm, it's "similar" to how autopilot works on commercial airplanes. And they have two human pilots.
the8472 6y ago
We should actually look at the court's reasoning (which I can't find referenced anywhere in the news articles). I doubt it singularly revolves around the interpretation of the word autopilot.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> They should have called it "CoPilot" [rather than "AutoPilot"] Huh but a co-pilot is much more capable than an auto-pilot system. An auto-pilot mostly keeps you level, going the right speed, and pointing in the right direction, and can do some limited landing and things. That sounds to me exactly like what Tesla's system does? A co-pilot is a human who can take complete control from you for the rest of the whole flight and deal with any emergency or unexpected situation. The co-pilot is much more advanced than the autopilot.

notRobot 6y ago

> The Munich court agreed with the industry body’s assessment and banned Tesla Germany from including “full potential for autonomous driving” and “Autopilot inclusive” in its German advertising materials. Fully autonomous driving won't be here for _at least_ half a decade so this judgement makes complete sense. Tesla was engaged in flase advertising.

vmception 6y ago
any idea if these materials were in German or in English?
- Leherenn 6y ago
  It was in German. Very few countries run adverts in languages different from the local ones, especially in the big European countries.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
gardaani 6y ago
Only five days ago Elon Musk claimed that "we will have the basic functionality for level five autonomy complete this year." (yeah..!) https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53349313 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53349313
- croes 6y ago
  Didn't he claim the same last year and the year before?
  - Vysero 6y ago
    Really? You're guna bet against Elon Musk? You really think that's wise? XD

itchyjunk 6y ago

Do regulators have an idea of what test a car needs to pass to be able to claim certain things? It there were levels of tests and passing each gave you better rating, that might give everyone an idea of there the system is. But most of the talks about this type of stuff seems to be gut feeling rating. Someone will say they think some car/software is good, other's will say it's no where close and the conversation ends there. It is also possible that updates can make software worse than it was before right? Say a software does pass some test. But how do you know it's still as good or better after some update? Is the problem we know for sure if has specific issues or it is more that we have no idea where it might fail while randomly driving? Are all this problems considered solvable in short term?

Barrin92 6y ago
>Do regulators have an idea of what test a car needs to pass to be able to claim certain things? It there were levels of tests and passing each gave you better rating, that might give everyone an idea of there the system is. The 'five levels' of autonomy are fairly well established by now. Full autonomy generally is defined as driving capability that does not involve human attention, that is to say it is what the name suggests, the vehicle drives itself, you could ship it to the consumer without a steering wheel.
- voqv 6y ago
  Likely can't ship. The Vienna Convention on Road Traffic prohibits fully driverless cars [1], I assume the US has something similar. Cruise is still waiting for their waiver to have cars without a steering wheel and that's not even for consumers. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Traffic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Traf...
  - bearjaws 6y ago
    Here in the states, its at the state level what is allowed. We have autonomous vehicle testing in pretty much any state that allows it.
6y ago

bgorman 6y ago

I wonder how much BMW/Daimler/Volkswagen had to do with this. It is a common practice for technology companies to offer features that will only become available after a certain time period. It actually takes time and money to build these features. I'm sure the fact that BMW/Daimler/VW have completely botched their EV/Autonomous vehicle strategy and the automotive industry is Germany's cash cow has nothing at all to do with the court's decision. Disclosure: I do not any automotive companies stock, and I am a dual US/German citizen.

csunbird 6y ago
Whether the decision was influenced by German car makers, I think the decision is correct. The car is not fully autonomous and requires your hands on the wheel all the times.
chki 6y ago
> I'm sure the fact that BMW/Daimler/VW have completely botched their EV/Autonomous vehicle strategy and the automotive industry is Germany's cash cow has nothing at all to do with the court's decision. What are you implying? That the German Court felt pressured by the Auto Lobby to take this decision? That the judges were biased? Bribed? Vague statements like this are very unhelpful, because you can't argue against them but they try to make a point anyway.
- bgorman 6y ago
  I am implying that governments (including court systems) often make decisions directly and indirectly to protect domestic companies at the expense of foreign companies.
- filoleg 6y ago
  > That the German Court felt pressured by the Auto Lobby to take this decision? Probably that + the constituents. When a very large chunk of your constituents are employed by local car manufacturing companies, letting those companies fail and lose to a foreign competitor not only loses money for those companies, it also puts a threat of unemployment on your voting population. Lobbying from local car companies + your voting population's employment dependent on success of those local car companies is a very strong combination. EDIT: to clarify, I am aware that judges in Germany are not elected, I wasn't implying that judges would support the ban just get re-elected. I meant it to say that the judge could see it not only as some lobbying effort, but also as a move to protect interests of the working people they are serving.

mrtksn 6y ago

This was probably the most brilliant advertising scheme of all times. Tesla is not just an electric car, it's the self driving car brand - even if it doesn't actually do that. I believe banning this kind of advertisement will only cement Tesla's image as the "Self Driving Car company" as no other company would be able to replicate it. People will continue to post memes about self driving Teslas but no one else would be able to claim anything like that up until they actually make a self driving car, and if they do it before Tesla, when people hear about it they will say "Oh cool!, So just like a Tesla?".

xinsight 6y ago
Or it backfires when people realize their newly purchased, expensive car doesn't do what they thought it could do. Tesla is not managing expectations well.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  That's what the 7 day return period is for.
ojnabieoot 6y ago
> This was probably the most brilliant advertising scheme of all times. Tesla is not just an electric car, it's the self driving car brand - even if it doesn't actually do that. Acting with total disregard for the safety of your users and violating laws around false advertising is not "brilliant." It wasn't "brilliant" when Bill Gates browbeat manufacturers to bundle Internet Explorer with Windows, even if he made a lot of money. It wasn't "brilliant" when Mark Zuckerberg broke the law to snoop on users phones and sell their data to advertisers, even if he used some of that money to buy a private island. And if I distract my opponent and steal their bishop, I don't become a brilliant chess player if I win the match. Like Musk, Zuckerberg, and Gates, I would just be a massive jerk.

SheinhardtWigCo 6y ago

Good. These statements are lies. The company should face punishment in the US for saying that full self-driving is blocked by “regulatory approval” when they’re still an unknown number of years away from even being able to demo something they plan to ship. They still don’t know if full self-driving is even possible at the required level of reliability with their current hardware suite. They could well be wrong and sitting on a scandal that will eclipse Theranos.

tenuousemphasis 6y ago
Which statements? This is what they say when you select the full self driving option when ordering a car: >The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  We need to break this down and examine it part by part and in whole as it’s extremely ambiguous to me what this is saying.
  - tenuousemphasis 6y ago
    Go ahead and read it slowly a few times. It's clear to me.
- SheinhardtWigCo 6y ago
  All Tesla vehicles have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances - https://www.tesla.com/model3 https://www.tesla.com/model3 Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really. - https://www.tesla.com/model3/design https://www.tesla.com/model3/design Tesla will be able to make its vehicles completely autonomous by the end of this year, founder Elon Musk has said. - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53349313 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53349313

natch 6y ago

Can someone provide a link to a Tesla advertisement? Haven't seen this.

FabHK 6y ago
https://www.tesla.com/de_de/models https://www.tesla.com/de_de/models > Hardware für autonomes Fahren Jedes neue Model S verfügt standardmäßig über modernste Hardware, um die Autopilot-Funktionalität schon heute und vollkommen autonomes Fahren in der Zukunft zu ermöglichen. Software-Updates werden diese Funktionalität im Laufe der Zeit weiter ausbauen und verbessern. > Die Autopilot-Funktionalität ermöglicht dem Fahrzeug automatisches Lenken, Beschleunigen und Bremsen auf seiner Spur. Die Funktionalität für autonomes Fahren bietet zusätzliche Merkmale und erweitert bestehende Funktionen, um Ihrem Fahrzeug weitere Fähigkeiten zu verleihen. Looks like a pretty close translation of the same thing on the US site: https://www.tesla.com/models https://www.tesla.com/models > Full Self-Driving Hardware Every new Model S comes standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time. > Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane. Full Self-Driving Capability introduces additional features and improves existing functionality to make your car more capable over time including:
- natch 6y ago
  That’s a web site though, not an advertisement. Was asking about advertisements.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    In general, for the purposes of regulating advertisement, everything a company says about a product is advertisement. Whether they put it on their website or a billboard is largely irrelevant.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    How is that not an advertisement? It seems like a textbook example.

simion314 6y ago

I am wondering if a regular person when is thinking about autopilot term in a car is thinking at movies and not at aircrafts. In SciFi/spy movies autopilot means the ship or car is piloting itself and you can do something else.

ilikehurdles 6y ago
Sure, they probably do. But more problematic is what does an average person think when they read "Full Self-Driving Capability" and "Includes the Full Self Driving Computer"?
- simion314 6y ago
  Yeah, but the "autopilot" claim will spawn a large numbers of fanboys with dictionaries and definition trying to defend Tesla's marketing department , the terms you mentioned will mostly get the mention of some text message you have to click OK on when you start using the car.

antpls 6y ago

That's hypocrisy from the German court. This is 100% a push from German car industry lobby. Note that the case wasn't started from consumer complaints, it was instead started by an industrial group. I bet all Tesla buyers are aware about what they are actually buying. They can return the car and get a refund if they are not pleased with it. This ban is bullshit considering that many ads in many industries are deceptive, including healthcare. Tesla is punished only because it is a direct competitor of German cars.

benzor 6y ago
Please try refuting the ruling on its reasoning instead of peddling conspiracy theories.
croes 6y ago
Some of the tesla car accidents prove the opposite.
- richardrk 6y ago
  Exactly! Here is something to support that: https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/
SheinhardtWigCo 6y ago
Deceptive healthcare ads aren’t allowed in Europe either. Consumer protection standards are much higher.
- antpls 6y ago
  They are not allowed, but it doesn't stop deceptive ads. Here is an example in French pharmacy : https://www.pourquoidocteur.fr/Articles/Question-d-actu/30796-Les-probiotiques-vendus-pharmacie-sont-ils-vraiment-bons-microbiote https://www.pourquoidocteur.fr/Articles/Question-d-actu/3079... "Probiotic" term has been banned on ads and packages. Those products are now sold as "Ultrabiotic" or other variants. Same product, same impact on consumer, but legal.
- 6y ago

ken47 6y ago

It's unsurprising that Germany isn't as tolerant of "growth hack" advertising as the US. Many Tesla owners are smart enough to realize that their cars can't actually drive themselves. But those few who buy into the marketing and ignore the fine print pose a risk to themselves and the drivers around them.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

aiisahik 6y ago

To all those who harp on Tesla's statements being false - you completely missed the point: full use of the Streisand Effect for free advertising.

refurb 6y ago
?? I don’t recall Tesla trying to silence talk about autonomous driving. I mean, that’s the definition of Streisand Effect.
kilotaras 6y ago
I believe that Tesla would prefer no advertising to "German court declared our claims about car capabilities a lie."
ilikehurdles 6y ago
If anything this clarifies to people who thought that teslas could self-drive that this is incorrect and that their ads are deceptive. Tesla is pretty well known now so it's not exactly a positive look. Someone who planned to buy a Tesla based on its marketing might now consider one of the other EVs on the horizon.

libertine 6y ago

When are we going to address the elephant in the room? Advertising regulators aren't able to regulate, or arre taking too long to regulate, and we're leaving this to platforms. When it should be done by a regulator, and fines should be applied to both the advertiser and the media owner - BECAUSE YES, media owners/platforms have the responsibility and should abide by law. I'm looking at Google/Facebook. If platforms can't do it, too bad on them, pay up. False advertising is alive and well, and it's encouraged. People are being defrauded and we're whistling.

FriendlyNormie 6y ago
The bigger elephant in the room is that we should have no sympathy for the retards who fall for false advertising and just let them die off from autopilot disasters so that only people who are naturally immune to such deception stay alive to influence the culture and pass on their genes. Unfortunately “all lives matter” people like you will never accept this.

elishuseynoff 6y ago

))

kabes 6y ago

Not a lot of companies can get away with selling $6000 packages on which they'll never be able to deliver.

rootusrootus 6y ago
It's up to $8000 now.
dlivingston 6y ago
The Full Self Driving package is actually quite good. With the exception of going “hands free”, this is an accurate video on the current state of FSD: https://youtu.be/tlThdr3O5Qo https://youtu.be/tlThdr3O5Qo
- neop1x 6y ago
  Sorry but 3-lane highway with constant flow of cars is very different to some Europe 2-lane highways with aggressive drivers changing lanes frequently. Also when shooting ads, you can do 50 trips and select only couple of "successful" ones where the driver intervention was not necessary. But the final video then does not reflect the real-life average experience.
- ReidZB 6y ago
  Another huge difference: the current FSD feature set will not make turns at intersections as demonstrated in this video. It now (as of recently) can be configured to automatically stop at appropriate traffic signage (stop signs, red/yellow lights, not sure about yields). However, it won't make a left or right turn. Some caveats: sometimes it will still want to stop at a green light, in my experience, and requires a manual override; and, if you're the foremost car in your lane at a traffic light, it won't begin moving on its own. I assume the same is true for stop signs. I guess that video is intended to be a preview of what the current software could do with all the driver interaction safety switches off (no required hands on wheel, no requirement to confirm safety through intersections/turns, etc) and all the internal feature flags turned on (particularly: enabling turns and enabling Navigate on Autopilot on non-freeways).
- 6y ago

adamqureshi 6y ago

Why not call Full Self Driving: "Future Self Driving". This way you don't need to make the claim. People will make the inference from FSD. If they can change FSD to mean. "Future Self Driving" Perhaps this will help them make it very clear what the FSD can do and cannot do. amiright?

kahlonel 6y ago

This is good, even though it could be a possible result of VW/BMW/Mercedes lobbying efforts. Human life safety is the top priority in any industry in Germany. Regulations are keeping Germany a little behind in the innovation race but, at the end, it is all worth it if people are not dying everyday because of failed tech.

billfor 6y ago

I wonder how many people complaining about Tesla's marketing actually have a Tesla. The car clearly makes you acknowledge that the driver is responsible before using any Autopilot/FSD capability, and if you bought the car with the expectation that it didn't , you have a return period to get your money back in full. It doesn't matter if they said it would take you to the moon and back. If you test drive or buy it and don't like it then just return it: no harm done.

rsynnott 6y ago
So, on that basis, all false advertising should be legal provided the manufacture includes a ‘yeah, we made that up, this is actually a toaster, not a time machine’ pamphlet?
Kbelicius 6y ago
> It doesn't matter if they said it would take you to the moon and back. Yes it does.
twic 6y ago
> It doesn't matter if they said it would take you to the moon and back. If you test drive or buy it and don't like it then just return it: no harm done. Under German law it seems that it does, in fact, matter.
Barrin92 6y ago
It does in Germany (as the ruling in question indicates). False advertising here is very much considered 'harm done' and no way to do business. Lying to the customer until she takes the product out of the box is in no way, shape or form how you operate in this country. (well I guess it was for wirecard which is embarassing enough) I do not want to live somewhere where I have to order ten things, three are fake, three I have to sent back, another few break and the last thing works.
- viklove 6y ago
  Even in the US false advertising like OP suggests is considered fraudulent and against the law. There are just too many Musk fanboys around here that don't seem to know how the law works.

rho4 6y ago

I think / hope that Elon Musk wanted everyone to be crystal clear about the end goal from the outset. Go on public record about the ambition in a way that will push himself and his employees. Use language to drive vision and outcome.

pbasista 6y ago
I agree that presenting a vision and facing it with reality of what is currently possible is great because it may motivate people to try to achieve something better than they would normally think of. But misrepresenting the reality as if it already was reflecting the vision, when in fact it is not, bears in my opinion many signs of fraud. For example, consider someone who has a "vision of wine" and decides to sell bottles of grape juice which are supposed to represent that vision. They can have honest intention to fill those bottles with wine at some point in time. But as far as they in fact sell the grape juice, I think that it is reasonable to require them to clearly present it as such.

nixass 6y ago

Full autonomous driving is so far away that I don't know why people and media even talk about it.

rtkwe 6y ago
Because companies like Tesla keep claiming it's just around the bend...
- kp98 6y ago
  and politicians that need a useful lie to leverage ie Yang stating all the driving jobs will be gone in 5 years lol
  - rtkwe 6y ago
    Trucking jobs are a little more vulnerable because theoretically highway driving to a depot or drop off is easier than city driving. Or there's an older idea of making convoy trucks where multiple semis follow one human piloted truck.

dlivingston 6y ago

While the average non-Tesla owner might be confused on phrases like “autopilot”, any Tesla owner is very aware of its capabilities and shortcomings. When you first purchase your Tesla and are beginning the setup process, you’re presented with multiple warning screens like this: https://boygeniusreport.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/autosteer-warning-tesla.jpg https://boygeniusreport.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/autostee... That’s an old image: I couldn’t find the current warning screen on Google Images, but it’s even more stark and serious about the driver’s role w.r.t. autopilot.

rsynnott 6y ago
So, after you buy the thing, it helpfully informs you that the advertising was bollocks? Seems like an excellent reason to ban the advertising.
neop1x 6y ago
Due to recent hype we decided to re-visit the state of Tesla. Our local Tesla seller told us a week ago (after our test drive) that FSD was awesome and that once the legislation in EU allowed it (bad guys in EU blocking the progress) and fullyfull-FSD was available, the price of the car would increase as much as 50% and that it was a great investment. Having some related tech knowledge we saw how utopian that still was and our test drive had convinced us self-driving was still at least 10 years away... It is false advertising and most younger tech enthusiasts may not see all the challenges involved in camera-based self-driving!
- dlivingston 6y ago
  FSD is very cool. But Musk also parrots the idea that Teslas are investments, which makes no sense to me. Why would my $50k Model Y be worth $75k in 10 years, when a brand-new Model Y in 10 years would also cost $50k (assuming prices stay constant)?
monkeyfacebag 6y ago
Aren't the ads largely targeted to non-owners? Even if I agreed with your point, I just don't see how it's relevant.

hudon 6y ago

I own a Tesla and love it. Having said that, “full self driving” is so far off what it actually does it’s actually not just a marketing issue, it is a safety issue. I’ve had my Tesla drive towards an incoming lane, slam on the breaks in the middle of the highway with no cars in front of us, swerve into another lane with no warning, and probably other hiccups I don’t remember. I know now I not only need to keep my hands on the wheel but I need to actively make sure the car doesn’t kill us. And I know the car warned me the feature required awareness, but its name made me think it was way more developed and safe than it actually is, and that disconnect will surely cause other drivers to trust it more than they should.

kevincox 6y ago
This is what bothers me the most about "Autopilot". Marketing aside I think that this level of automation is in an uncanny valley of danger. It isn't good enough to take full control, but it is good enough that the driver feels safe enough to get distracted. I'm sure there are many of drivers who keep their full attention on the road, but in general humans are bad at focusing on tedious things that they don't feel are necessary.
bjarneh 6y ago
> I need to actively make sure the car doesn’t kill us Same experience here. Why people say this is relaxing; and takes the stress away from long distance driving is beyond me...
- jiggawatts 6y ago
  When I test drove a Tesla for a weekend my opinion of the Autopilot was the same as the car's owner: "It drives like a learner driver". Just like the nervous parent teaching their teenager to drive, this is not a relaxing experience. However, the speed-adaptive cruise control is the best I've ever experienced. It maintains the set speed exactly, slows down for corners automatically, and follows the car in front as if there was a steel rod connecting the two vehicles. Using the cruise control in the Tesla was some of the most relaxing long-distance driving I've ever done in my life...

Robotbeat 6y ago

I think it’s poor for “autopilot.” That word has a long history. It really is the best existing word to use. But a fair ruling for “autonomous.” And I think the concerns HN people have with “autopilot” are in part due to the fact that the terms have not been properly contrasted by Tesla. Being more careful with “autonomous” and “self-driving” would help a lot with the confusion with the word “autopilot.”

dragontamer 6y ago
Tesla's not only calling their stuff "autopilot", but also "full self driving", which is probably the wrong way to describe their current implementation. Its a bit annoying to see people so fixated on the word "autopilot" when its clear that "full self driving" is complete and utter vaporware, a $5000 lie sold by the company.
- valine 6y ago
  The reason many people buy the full self driving package is so they can experience the latest state of the art autonomous driving software as Tesla develops it, and Tesla continues to deliver on that promise. Smart summon and stopping for traffic control were both added recently as software updates. Even more recently they’ve improved the lane keeping performance on curvy roads, which is something nobody really mentions. Many of the problems people talk about like Tesla’s swerving out of the lane have been greatly improved in recent updates. There’s also the auto lane changes on the highway, which is really quite impressive to watch. Your car will automatically pass slow cars, move out of the passing lane when traffic clears up, and change lanes to follow your gps navigation. Not sure how you can call that vaporware.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280 >>> (Question from Twitter): Update on the coast to coast autopilot demo? >> Elon: Still on for end of year. Just software limited. Any Tesla car with HW2 (all cars built since Oct last year) will be able to do this. May, 2017. Elon bragging that "coast-to-coast" autonomous driving will be available by end of 2017. Straight up vaporware, a lie, no where close to done. We still have "Full Self Driving" cars crashing into the sides of trucks in 2020.

lazyjones 6y ago

The hate in this thread is staggering. Let's see you explain how "smart" your phone is...

kohlerm 6y ago

It's surprising that it took so long to identify this as a dangerous lie

martythemaniak 6y ago

Well, I'm gonna disagree. Let's quote wikipedia: > An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without requiring constant manual control by a human operator. Autopilot does not replace human operators. Instead, autopilot assists the operator's control of the vehicle, allowing the operator to focus on broader aspects of operations (for example, monitoring the trajectory, weather and on-board systems). This is 100% exactly what Tesla is selling. Instead of constant manual control you focus on the broader operations of your car. Even the colloquial use of "autopilot" makes it clear that being on autopilot means you're not paying very much attention: https://learnersdictionary.com/qa/what-does-on-autopilot-mean https://learnersdictionary.com/qa/what-does-on-autopilot-mea... Your car being on autopilot very much implies you still have to pay attention.

temac 6y ago
This argument is boring (because even if you were right, that's not what the public understands) but let's pretend it is not: so are you actually right? It's debatable. To fly a plane safely, you have to prioritize in the following order: aviate, navigate, communicate. An autopilot takes care of the aviate part (under some conditions) - and even bits of navigate in some case, but this is probably an easier problem actually. It can warn you when it is disengaging, so you have to be available, but you don't have to monitor actively at all time and with your full focus (as-if you fly manually) that it is working correctly and be able to disengage it yourself. Tesla "autopilot" does not take care of the aviate equivalent. It is believed so imperfect that you are supposed to stay extremely vigilant at all time, keep your hands on the wheel, look at the road as-if you were actually fully manually driving, and disengage it yourself if it attempts to kill you (or somebody else). My own judgment is that it is not an autopilot, by the most common parallel possible (with the autopilot of a plane). And again, that's probably not even very important. If most of the public believe a car autopilot is supposed not only to "aviate"-equivalent perfectly, but maybe even navigate on top of that, then Tesla, not even having reached the first part fully, should be just careful a little and chose some other wording. They don't, because they are completely playing on that. I found it even more than dishonest; I found it unethical.
richardrk 6y ago

jacquesm 6y ago

Good. Not that it will stop Tesla from the next round of hype, from the most recent news we can expect level 5 autonomous driving soon. Maybe they'll call it 'autopilot'? Who will they blame when it doesn't work?

ping_pong 6y ago

His remarks talking about how Level 5 is fundamentally solved should be investigated by the FTC. I think he is purposefully and fraudulently saying that self-driving will be available to get more people to pay the $8000 for the self-driving software "before it goes up". They should make sure his statements are actually true otherwise he would be fined severely because to me, self-driving is decades away still.

Traster 6y ago
Never mind his $8000 self-driving packages, Tesla's share price is where the action is.

paulcole 6y ago

> All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver. From Tesla.com/autopilot in February of 2017. Absolutely shameful.

richardrk 6y ago

Good. This kind of advertising is misleading and was not only posing a risk for individuals but also for the sector of autonomous driving as a whole. I always feared that one more Tesla autopilot death might cause the public to generally distrust any company working in the field.

neop1x 6y ago
Exactly! That's why I am glad EU is very cautious in approving self-driving solutions. Yes, we need full self-driving and it doesn't look like an impossible task to achieve eventually. But it has to be done step by step, ensuring it behaves consistent and that the current limitations are well-understood by drivers. Bad reputation of some self-driving implementations could cause damage to the whole self-driving industry which would be bad.

subsubzero 6y ago

Auto-pilot is disingenuous at best, it should be labelled "driving assist" or something similar. I remember that one person in florida[1] where they died by having their tesla on "auto-pilot" and a tractor trailer truck collided and killed them while they were watching Harry Potter and not driving with their attention on the road. Would this person have died if the Auto-pilot feature was named something different? Who can say as people do dumb things on the road, but it could lead tesla to future lawsuits from similar events. [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-driver-killed-autopilot-self-driving-car-harry-potter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-dri...

mindfulplay 6y ago

Great. I hope they bring charges against Tesla for causing deaths that were completely avoidable. In fact we keep talking about AI ethics and so on. But we seem to have missed this very basic key ethical point: when Silicon Valley VC funded madness via AI/ML crap is pushed at breakneck speeds via these metal torpedoes, who is taking accountability? It's really amazing that Elon is worried about AI overlords when a 'simple' autopilot is not engineered to ethical standards. (Same goes for people like Andrej Karpathy and co who should take the blame and publicly apologize/resign). Shameful. Glad Germany is ahead of the curve.

mleland 6y ago
Out of curiosity, what part of the driving AI of tesla would you say is currently not lining up with ethical standards?
- mindfulplay 6y ago
  The fact that they cannot disambiguate between a white truck and the sky color that killed an innocent driver is a starting point. I realize the drivers probably should be paying attention etc: but when Tesla falsely advertises (or worse by the toddler antics of Elon, portrays the optics of L5 automation); and drivers believe such advertisements then of course they wouldn't know that the car is much worse than promised.

maxharris 6y ago

If you actually believe that Tesla will fail to deliver full self-driving in the coming years, I have two questions. 1. have you watched this entire technical presentation made by Andrej Karpathy, Senior Director of AI at Tesla? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7BXih7zx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7BXih7zx8 2. if you understand what you've seen in that video, why do you think Tesla will fail?

kirillzubovsky 6y ago
As a Tesla owner, and regardless of the presentation, I have serious doubt that Tesla will be able to solve all the edge cases. Machine learning needs data, and with my family in the car, I don't want it to make a decision whether or not to break, while heading in ongoing traffic. I want the car to know. Right now, 99% reasonable self-driving doesn't bother me because I am always in control, and I already know where the car is going to mess up and get ready to take control ahead of time. It works, and it works really well. But the different between 100% and the 99% is all the difference that matters, and it's colossal. I hope they can figure this out, but I don't know how. I hope they do.
agakshat 6y ago
Whether or not a camera-based solution will work reliably in the future is not the issue at hand here. The issue is the vast, vast gap between the current capability of Autopilot vs. what it is marketed as, and how this false advertising can literally kill the average consumer.
- grecy 6y ago
  > Whether or not a camera-based solution will work reliably in the future is not the issue at hand here. Actually, it is precisely the issue at hand: From the ruling: > The Munich court agreed with the industry body’s assessment and banned Tesla Germany from including “full potential for autonomous driving”.... in its German advertising materials. So Tesla are not allowed to advertise that it has the potential to do it in the future.
  - 6y ago

coronadisaster 6y ago

Tesla haven't been sued for this yet?