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I'm not sure how I got sucked into Tiktok but I was quickly hooked. There's something so refreshingly playful, authentic, and raw about so much Tiktok content c

I'm not sure how I got sucked into Tiktok but I was quickly hooked. There's something so refreshingly playful, authentic, and raw about so much Tiktok content compared to Instagram. Instagram (explore/discovery) is generally pretty people with pretty things in pretty places. That was fun for a while but it's just not that interesting after a while. I don't need to see more pretty pictures of women doing yoga. I don't need to see more pretty mountain bikes I can't afford. I don't need to see anymore drone shots of Milford Sound in New Zealand. Tiktok, on the other hand, is playful, diverse, and interesting (at least my feed is). Once you start liking content, the feed completely changes from teenage lip sync videos or other teenager-oriented content into such a nice variety of content. I legitimately laugh my ass off or smile happily at so much of it. Other content teaches me about food, gardening, dancing, DIY, media theory, hiking alone, gender bending, etc. etc. The list goes on. Some of the videos delight me and others inform me. Instagram, by contrast, just feels so bland now.

duxup 6y ago
I feel the same way about a lot of social media personalities, YouTube ... there's all these youtube-isms that every youtuber eventually adopts. You follow someone, they get popular, then they do some reaction videos, or they decide to evolve into some sort of lifestyle / social media pundit / etc... I really don't care to watch folks react to things or any of that other stuff. They all encourage a lot of nasty / outrageous content over time as that's what gets eyeballs. I think much more positive, authentic, curated / focused content would be great. I'm done with filtering twitter, youtube, instagram ... endlessly as content eventually goes sour.
manishsharan 6y ago
Instagram seems to be evolving into Home Shopping Network or QVC.
- addflip 6y ago
  That's a great way to put it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but that's totally what is happening on IG. A lot of DTC brands have basically saturated my feed. I'm not sure how much longer this can continue without losing engagement. Anecdotally my own interest in IG has been waning the past year almost to the point of deletion.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    This happens and has been happening all over the Internet. IG won't be the last victim. As soon as corporate America figures out how to sell their Ranch dressing over a platform, the brands start invading and the whole platform turns vanilla and boring.
  - RandallBrown 6y ago
    Are you following these brands or is it just too many ads?
- throwaway_kufu 6y ago
  It will only get worse as they roll out more and more shopping features...but in fairness they are smart and either anticipating the changing social media market (meaning there may be a critical mass of influencers realizing they treat IG like a job except without compensation) or it’s simply a way to test going after Amazon.
- driverdan 6y ago
  Block brands, advertisers, and shills. You'll find it becomes a more pleasant experience.
chvid 6y ago
I am also deeply fascinated by TikTok. It is really next generation social media. Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Hacker News all look seriously dated in comparison.
- bzb3 6y ago
  In what way exactly are you comparing tiktok to HN?
  - chvid 6y ago
    Yeah. You are right. There are big diffferences. For one: You can joke on TikTok ...
    - nix23 6y ago
      >For one: You can joke on TikTok ... Choke not joke...big difference
    - bzb3 6y ago
      If that was a joke you might be overestimating your skills :P
      - chvid 6y ago
        Hey - I got 3 points for my last comment ...
  - solarhoma 6y ago
    He must be delusional. Tiktok is for dancing videos as far as I can tell. The parent comment and down are taking stances that I would never expect on HN. Something is off, there is nothing ‘refreshing’ about tiktok.
    - Threeve303 6y ago
      He has a point though, HN has a serious lack of dancing videos.
tanilama 6y ago
Me too. I don't have any evidence, but I believe human evaluation in the whole recommendation is the remedy that makes TikTok excels.
- addison-lee 6y ago
  Yes, they get rid of content from "ugly, poor or disabled users" so you have an even "better" experience. So not only is it Chinese spyware, it is an awful company too. Source: https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...
  - YarickR2 6y ago
    Do you have instagram account ? If yes - are you subscribed to ugly, poor or disabled people ?
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Ugly, poor, and disabled people are absolutely capable of producing interesting content.
      - YarickR2 6y ago
        That's not the answer to the question I was asking. I wanted to know how many are watching this content , not if this this content exists . If nobody is watching, then result is the same
        kube-system 6y ago
        I definitely subscribe to some people who could be labelled that way, because I subscribe to interesting content. Most of my favorite YouTubers don't show their face at all, and a few show neither their face nor their voice. But, I am sure you can also find people who discriminate anyway, otherwise we wouldn't need to have conversations about discrimination. But, there is a very different ethical and practical divide between a company implementing systematic discrimination and discrimination by individual users. This divide is large enough that most western nations have decided to draw their legislative lines there.
puranjay 6y ago
Here in India, TikTok was massively popular in smaller towns and villages. The content was so different than Instagram. I really thought it was invaluable (TikTok is banned now). For us city dwelling upper middle class people, it gave a rare glimpse into the lives of people less privileged. And it wasn't maudlin or patronizing as a lot of narratives about the poor tend to be. Rather it was fun and authentic. I remember when the lockdown happened and a lot of migrant workers were left stranded, the news channels were filled with horror stories and heartbreaking videos of poor families walking hundreds of kilometres to their homes. But on TikTok, there were plenty of videos shot by the same migrant workers where they shared their woes, but would sometimes break into a dance or make fun of their situation.
- ospider 6y ago
  Interesting. In China, TikTok(Douyin) is actually more popular in big cities, and Kuaishou is more popular in smaller towns.
- kpennell 6y ago
  That's super fascinating. I also feel like tiktok is a little window into people's lives I wouldn't know otherwise (different social classes, etc.)
- biztos 6y ago
  Was there any reason to ban it other than “China?” Has anyone made an Indian TikTok clone, and if so has it got any traction? Seems like an obvious thing to do, if it was that popular.
  - puranjay 6y ago
    There are a bunch of TikTok clones floating around and they've racked up some users. But I'm not sure if these clones would have the tech to serve the kind of recommendations TikTok did. Some, like "Mitron", are basically pre-made scripts bought online and rebadged [0]. They don't have the tech DNA to get recommendations right - which was one big reason for TikTok's success. [0]: https://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/mitron-app-tiktok-indian-pakistani-app-tictic-2237511 https://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/mitron-app-tiktok-indian-...
analyte123 6y ago
Something about Tiktok, whether the algorithm or the sheer volume of content, seems to discourage the sort of look-at-me envy-bait narcissistic posturing that is so common on Instagram. To be popular on Tiktok you actually have to do stuff (even it's fairly banal like dancing or telling stories), not just be (or pretend to be) someone. I found it funny that the author of this post is trying to defend liberal values like the free flow of information on the internet by...making Apple and Google remove Tiktok from people's phones. He's correct that the primary political risk of Tiktok is the recommendation algorithm being manipulated. However, American tech companies manipulate their recommendation algorithms for political reasons (in the loose sense of the word political) all the time and I'm sure not everyone in the world likes that either. This would have been a good chance to really defend free flow of information on the internet, open and swappable recommendation algorithms, personal data ownership, and so on, but the conclusion is basically "it's bad because a China-affiliated company does it". Generally, everything that Tiktok does that is wrong is also wrong when Facebook does it. The reality is that Tiktok is (for now) a superior product in many ways to anything from American tech companies. Why is this?
- exanimo_sai 6y ago
  I think it has a lot to do with how TikTok manages the balance between consumption and creation. Only a fraction of viewers on YouTube for example create content where a significant portion (55%) on TikTok both create AND Consume. This was an analysis on TikTok vs YouTube and focuses on how TikTok leverages mimcry to overcome the initial burden of ideation and yields significant content creation for its platform. "On Youtube, 79% of views accrue to only 10% of its creators. While on TikTok 55% of viewers also create videos. " https://4thquadrant.io/freearticles/business-models/tiktok-and-the-creation-consumption-balance/ https://4thquadrant.io/freearticles/business-models/tiktok-a...
- mochialex 6y ago
  Nope Tiktok and Facebook are not even comparable. Using Facebook means you will see ads targeting you. Using Tiktok means you are helping China silence millions of camped Uyghurs. You are helping China make the world a better place for Totalitarianism. Totally different levels of evil
mrtksn 6y ago
I am not a TikTok user but when I first tried TikTok a couple years ago it struck me as extremely well made app geared for creativity. The traditional social media dominated by US companies is about sharing what you eat what you do where you are who do you sleep with and what you are angry about. People are essentially misbehaving when they post funny videos. TikTok on the other hand is playful and the encouraged behaviour is to be creative. When someone misbehaves on Instagram, Twitter or Facebook they would post videos that someone else made and A lot of that content is made on TikTok. The only creative space is in YouTube but it's not because YouTube encourages it but because there are people capable if using it like that. I am not convinced that the issue with TikTok is a security issue, It's just that SV lost it's edge on culture and technology, and the crusade against TikTok or Huawei is mostly protectionism and this protectionism will eventually lead to Israel, EU, Japan, Korea, UK, Australia to spit domestic and global success stories like China does these days. If the concerns were about security, there would have been regulations to ensure security(like requiring storing US users data on US soil and so on). USA is not doing that, USA is in war mode. What even worse? People don't even want to hear it. I am not the biggest fan of Peter Theil but I think he has a point on the monoculture, group thinking, high rents.
stopratelimit 6y ago
this reads like astroturfing
hugh4life 6y ago
"I'm not sure how I got sucked into Tiktok but I was quickly hooked." All these apps use behavioral design to get you hooked. Tiktok is oversocialization on steroids. You have people not only acting out the behavioral scripts embedded and triggered in some meme music or voice you have people mimetically acting out what others are acting out. The psychological manipulation possible though TikTok is immense.
- moron4hire 6y ago
  Behavioral Psychology really needs to be a general studies topic, introduced to secondary education. I remember my local high school's motto when I was growing up was something like, "we're not here to teach, we're here to create good, informed consumers". Never mind the obvious problems with that statement, but just considering it on face-value: how can people become good, informed consumers without having some kind of exposure to the concepts of how easily information can be collected about and used to manipulate people? I don't expect most high school students to inculcate the full breadth of the topic, just as so few seem to actually learn and retain anything about history, social studies, or even the freaking alphabet (I've met way too many people who think the English alphabet has 25 letters). But currently, the general populace has no idea the extent to which they and their data can be manipulated. It would be enough if all they learned was "you and your data can be manipulated".
  - glial 6y ago
    > we're here to create good, informed consumers Wow, whatever happened to trying to create good, informed citizens?
    - moron4hire 6y ago
      Yeah, it was definitely "consumers" not "citizens". That was one of the parts that struck me right away. Glad I didn't go there.
  - andrepd 6y ago
    >I remember my local high school's motto when I was growing up was something like, "we're not here to teach, we're here to create good, informed consumers". I don't get it, was this the actual real motto, or something people said tongue in cheek?
giancarlostoro 6y ago
Btw IG discovery is mainly based on people you follow and things you like. For example I see more memes and tech stuff on IG than I ever do of yoga pants. If I see something I dont like I mark it as not interested.
- kpennell 6y ago
  I know. I tried that so many times. I think I must have marked 'not interested' on thousands of posts at this point. For some reason, IG thinks I'm a track athlete (among many other things). Even for stuff I am legitimately into (like mountain biking), my IG explore page mostly serves me up these random accounts called things like 'MTBdaze' or 'bike247' that just seem to repost random pics/memes as a way to grow the follower count.
  - giancarlostoro 6y ago
    Oh I see, yeah that doesn't help sadly, for me though the stuff it shows me does not correlate with the people I follow at all. The algorithm must be weird I guess?
skizm 6y ago
> There's something so refreshingly playful, authentic, and raw about so much Tiktok content compared to Instagram. Isn't that because Tiktock's content is manually curated (for better or worse)?
- WillPostForFood 6y ago
  Is it manually curated? The article talks about how their algorithms are part of their core success. TouTiao was about the feed and the algorithm from the beginning. The first time a user opened TouTiao, the news might be rather generic, but every scroll, every linger over a story, every click, was fed into a feedback loop that refined what it was the user saw. Meanwhile all of that data fed back into TouTiao’s larger machine learning processes, which effectively ran billions of A/B tests a day on content of all types, cross-referenced against all of the user data it could collect. Soon the app was indispensable to its users, able to anticipate the news they cared about with nary a friend recommendation in sight.
  - skizm 6y ago
    Probably a mix of manual and automated. I know where was a big stink semi-recently about them manually removing content from "ugly" and "poor" people. I guess no way to be 100% sure of the validity of the claims, but here is one article reporting on it: https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...
    - chillacy 6y ago
      I haven't verified this but supposedly this is now done automatically with machine learning: https://www.tiktokbeautiful.com/ https://www.tiktokbeautiful.com/
- mercer 6y ago
  I thought so too, but if the article is to be believed it's algorithmic / AI (with at the very least Chinese censors doing /some/ degree of curation).
Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
>Instagram (explore/discovery) is generally pretty people with pretty things in pretty places. TikTok actively pressured the moderators to filter out 'ugly, poor or disabled'[1]. I haven't used TikTok, but I think such apps of mass appeal at this age of intense screen time competition will resort activities like this; there is no magical reason for TikTok to be better than other limited attention social networks. Even though I never thought of using TikTok, now as a disabled person I feel morally obliged to not use it. [1]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/17/tiktok-tried-to-filter-out-videos-from-ugly-poor-or-disabled-users https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/17/tiktok-tr...
- artificial 6y ago
  Would that suggest that the moderation helped it gain immense popularity? If so how much in your opinion?
  - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
    What I mentioned was least of TikTok's initial criticism. It was known to be a safe haven for much worse type of people(X) because the app was predominantly used by teens in Asian countries where child protection online laws are nearly nonexistent. Apart from turning a blind eye to it, along with moderation principles which made sure X got what they want, TikTok rose to market leader due to sheer number of Asian population. TikTok (Musically) was an Asian first app unlike Instagram, high Smartphone/Internet penetration acted as a catalyst. Only when they got prominence in western market, they started regulating the content for vulgarity.
biztos 6y ago
Instagram has other uses as well. I use it mostly to follow artists, so for me it’s primarily the world’s most interesting (constantly) changing exhibition. I see maybe one selfie a week. I also know people who use it for home workouts. I’m sure there are a bunch of other, non-shallow, non-bland uses I haven’t heard of.
- kpennell 6y ago
  True. I don't make tiktoks and my friends are on IG. It's basically a private friends video journal for that use. My point was more about content discovery.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ericls 6y ago
I believe people who switched from weed to meth share a similar experience.
vmception 6y ago
this is funny to read as I have five instagram accounts connected, and the one I have curated the least has TikTok teenage lip sync videos as default. Its literally Charlie De Malio all over the explore page. And no, this is not based on things I have liked. Its Hype House stuff promoted straight from Bytedance.
dirtyid 6y ago
>refreshingly playful That's the kind of content that survives the crucibles of Chinese censorship, "Creative and Joyful" opiate for the masses. This is an often overlooked aspect of Chinese social media / content filtering philosophy that has coalesced over time - block out the bad and divisive while elevating mundane joys. It's how the 50c operates, it floods the airwaves with small happy platitudes and avoids debates because engaging and challenging controversial topics (especially politics) is how toxicity is produced. It's counterproductive to even try. It's why TikTok's content policy is designed to protect the status quo, often misinterpreted as being pro-Beijing when it's broadly pro-establishment. The last thing Chinese social media platforms is designed to do is to start revolutions, encourage radicalization or sectarianism among impressionable audiences, things western social media platforms are dealing with now, and why they were blocked in China in the first place. E: IMO the style has it's place, whole of China has no choice but to live under it, but in the west, a plurality of content management philosophies calibrated for different audiences is good. There's lessons in managing toxicity to learn from TikTok even if it gets banned.
- kpennell 6y ago
  Sorry my original comment didn't cover this. Lots and lots of the content I see in my feed is liberal, left, anti-authoritarian. I get nuanced views about the black lives matter movement, feminism, social media, etc. even blatant critiques about what tiktok is doing to young people (especially young women). Maybe every 5th video in my feed is extremely political. It's not all just la-di-da dance and cat videos.
  - dirtyid 6y ago
    West got their regionalized treatment and given more latitude in response to media pieces alleging political censorship last year. I surmise controversial content doesn't get promoted much outside the immediate circles. Main point is the DNA of why TikTok feels the way it does is connected to experiences learned cultivating media platforms behind Chinese firewall. Politics and toxicity exist all over Chinese internet as well, they just get filtered / harmonized over time or never reach many eyes in the first place. My hope is that TikTok sticks around at least long enough to monetize and demonstrate that social media doesn't have to primarily drive conflict to reach eyeballs. Douyin (TikTok parent app) is fairly profitable in China, but it's hard to tell if the model works unless its exported and flourishes under different cultural backgrounds.
jdminhbg 6y ago
> Tiktok, on the other hand, is playful, diverse, and interesting (at least my feed is). Once you start liking content, the feed completely changes from teenage lip sync videos or other teenager-oriented content into such a nice variety of content. I legitimately laugh my ass off or smile happily at so much of it. Other content teaches me about food, gardening, dancing, DIY, media theory, hiking alone, gender bending, etc. etc. The list goes on. Some of the videos delight me and others inform me. How did you get there? I played with TikTok for a while, but never escaped the "teenagers making videos about other teenagers to pop music" ghetto, and it didn't seem like there was a way for me to tell the algorithm what I wanted without just hoping it surfaced something that I could like.
- kpennell 6y ago
  make an account, start marking things as not interested, including songs (you have to tap and hold to see this on android) push like on the stuff you do.
kanox 6y ago
My TikTok feed is ~70% animal videos and honestly it's the best app for positive content. It starts with way too many young women dancing but you can just mark them as "not interesting" and they will diminish.

duxup 6y ago

I feel the same way about a lot of social media personalities, YouTube ... there's all these youtube-isms that every youtuber eventually adopts. You follow someone, they get popular, then they do some reaction videos, or they decide to evolve into some sort of lifestyle / social media pundit / etc... I really don't care to watch folks react to things or any of that other stuff. They all encourage a lot of nasty / outrageous content over time as that's what gets eyeballs. I think much more positive, authentic, curated / focused content would be great. I'm done with filtering twitter, youtube, instagram ... endlessly as content eventually goes sour.

manishsharan 6y ago

Instagram seems to be evolving into Home Shopping Network or QVC.

addflip 6y ago
That's a great way to put it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but that's totally what is happening on IG. A lot of DTC brands have basically saturated my feed. I'm not sure how much longer this can continue without losing engagement. Anecdotally my own interest in IG has been waning the past year almost to the point of deletion.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  This happens and has been happening all over the Internet. IG won't be the last victim. As soon as corporate America figures out how to sell their Ranch dressing over a platform, the brands start invading and the whole platform turns vanilla and boring.
- RandallBrown 6y ago
  Are you following these brands or is it just too many ads?
throwaway_kufu 6y ago
It will only get worse as they roll out more and more shopping features...but in fairness they are smart and either anticipating the changing social media market (meaning there may be a critical mass of influencers realizing they treat IG like a job except without compensation) or it’s simply a way to test going after Amazon.
driverdan 6y ago
Block brands, advertisers, and shills. You'll find it becomes a more pleasant experience.

chvid 6y ago

I am also deeply fascinated by TikTok. It is really next generation social media. Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Hacker News all look seriously dated in comparison.

bzb3 6y ago
In what way exactly are you comparing tiktok to HN?
- chvid 6y ago
  Yeah. You are right. There are big diffferences. For one: You can joke on TikTok ...
  - nix23 6y ago
    >For one: You can joke on TikTok ... Choke not joke...big difference
  - bzb3 6y ago
    If that was a joke you might be overestimating your skills :P
    - chvid 6y ago
      Hey - I got 3 points for my last comment ...
- solarhoma 6y ago
  He must be delusional. Tiktok is for dancing videos as far as I can tell. The parent comment and down are taking stances that I would never expect on HN. Something is off, there is nothing ‘refreshing’ about tiktok.
  - Threeve303 6y ago
    He has a point though, HN has a serious lack of dancing videos.

tanilama 6y ago

Me too. I don't have any evidence, but I believe human evaluation in the whole recommendation is the remedy that makes TikTok excels.

addison-lee 6y ago
Yes, they get rid of content from "ugly, poor or disabled users" so you have an even "better" experience. So not only is it Chinese spyware, it is an awful company too. Source: https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...
- YarickR2 6y ago
  Do you have instagram account ? If yes - are you subscribed to ugly, poor or disabled people ?
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Ugly, poor, and disabled people are absolutely capable of producing interesting content.
    - YarickR2 6y ago
      That's not the answer to the question I was asking. I wanted to know how many are watching this content , not if this this content exists . If nobody is watching, then result is the same
      - kube-system 6y ago
        I definitely subscribe to some people who could be labelled that way, because I subscribe to interesting content. Most of my favorite YouTubers don't show their face at all, and a few show neither their face nor their voice. But, I am sure you can also find people who discriminate anyway, otherwise we wouldn't need to have conversations about discrimination. But, there is a very different ethical and practical divide between a company implementing systematic discrimination and discrimination by individual users. This divide is large enough that most western nations have decided to draw their legislative lines there.

puranjay 6y ago

Here in India, TikTok was massively popular in smaller towns and villages. The content was so different than Instagram. I really thought it was invaluable (TikTok is banned now). For us city dwelling upper middle class people, it gave a rare glimpse into the lives of people less privileged. And it wasn't maudlin or patronizing as a lot of narratives about the poor tend to be. Rather it was fun and authentic. I remember when the lockdown happened and a lot of migrant workers were left stranded, the news channels were filled with horror stories and heartbreaking videos of poor families walking hundreds of kilometres to their homes. But on TikTok, there were plenty of videos shot by the same migrant workers where they shared their woes, but would sometimes break into a dance or make fun of their situation.

ospider 6y ago
Interesting. In China, TikTok(Douyin) is actually more popular in big cities, and Kuaishou is more popular in smaller towns.
kpennell 6y ago
That's super fascinating. I also feel like tiktok is a little window into people's lives I wouldn't know otherwise (different social classes, etc.)
biztos 6y ago
Was there any reason to ban it other than “China?” Has anyone made an Indian TikTok clone, and if so has it got any traction? Seems like an obvious thing to do, if it was that popular.
- puranjay 6y ago
  There are a bunch of TikTok clones floating around and they've racked up some users. But I'm not sure if these clones would have the tech to serve the kind of recommendations TikTok did. Some, like "Mitron", are basically pre-made scripts bought online and rebadged [0]. They don't have the tech DNA to get recommendations right - which was one big reason for TikTok's success. [0]: https://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/mitron-app-tiktok-indian-pakistani-app-tictic-2237511 https://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/mitron-app-tiktok-indian-...

analyte123 6y ago

Something about Tiktok, whether the algorithm or the sheer volume of content, seems to discourage the sort of look-at-me envy-bait narcissistic posturing that is so common on Instagram. To be popular on Tiktok you actually have to do stuff (even it's fairly banal like dancing or telling stories), not just be (or pretend to be) someone. I found it funny that the author of this post is trying to defend liberal values like the free flow of information on the internet by...making Apple and Google remove Tiktok from people's phones. He's correct that the primary political risk of Tiktok is the recommendation algorithm being manipulated. However, American tech companies manipulate their recommendation algorithms for political reasons (in the loose sense of the word political) all the time and I'm sure not everyone in the world likes that either. This would have been a good chance to really defend free flow of information on the internet, open and swappable recommendation algorithms, personal data ownership, and so on, but the conclusion is basically "it's bad because a China-affiliated company does it". Generally, everything that Tiktok does that is wrong is also wrong when Facebook does it. The reality is that Tiktok is (for now) a superior product in many ways to anything from American tech companies. Why is this?

exanimo_sai 6y ago
I think it has a lot to do with how TikTok manages the balance between consumption and creation. Only a fraction of viewers on YouTube for example create content where a significant portion (55%) on TikTok both create AND Consume. This was an analysis on TikTok vs YouTube and focuses on how TikTok leverages mimcry to overcome the initial burden of ideation and yields significant content creation for its platform. "On Youtube, 79% of views accrue to only 10% of its creators. While on TikTok 55% of viewers also create videos. " https://4thquadrant.io/freearticles/business-models/tiktok-and-the-creation-consumption-balance/ https://4thquadrant.io/freearticles/business-models/tiktok-a...
mochialex 6y ago
Nope Tiktok and Facebook are not even comparable. Using Facebook means you will see ads targeting you. Using Tiktok means you are helping China silence millions of camped Uyghurs. You are helping China make the world a better place for Totalitarianism. Totally different levels of evil

mrtksn 6y ago

I am not a TikTok user but when I first tried TikTok a couple years ago it struck me as extremely well made app geared for creativity. The traditional social media dominated by US companies is about sharing what you eat what you do where you are who do you sleep with and what you are angry about. People are essentially misbehaving when they post funny videos. TikTok on the other hand is playful and the encouraged behaviour is to be creative. When someone misbehaves on Instagram, Twitter or Facebook they would post videos that someone else made and A lot of that content is made on TikTok. The only creative space is in YouTube but it's not because YouTube encourages it but because there are people capable if using it like that. I am not convinced that the issue with TikTok is a security issue, It's just that SV lost it's edge on culture and technology, and the crusade against TikTok or Huawei is mostly protectionism and this protectionism will eventually lead to Israel, EU, Japan, Korea, UK, Australia to spit domestic and global success stories like China does these days. If the concerns were about security, there would have been regulations to ensure security(like requiring storing US users data on US soil and so on). USA is not doing that, USA is in war mode. What even worse? People don't even want to hear it. I am not the biggest fan of Peter Theil but I think he has a point on the monoculture, group thinking, high rents.

stopratelimit 6y ago

this reads like astroturfing

hugh4life 6y ago

"I'm not sure how I got sucked into Tiktok but I was quickly hooked." All these apps use behavioral design to get you hooked. Tiktok is oversocialization on steroids. You have people not only acting out the behavioral scripts embedded and triggered in some meme music or voice you have people mimetically acting out what others are acting out. The psychological manipulation possible though TikTok is immense.

moron4hire 6y ago
Behavioral Psychology really needs to be a general studies topic, introduced to secondary education. I remember my local high school's motto when I was growing up was something like, "we're not here to teach, we're here to create good, informed consumers". Never mind the obvious problems with that statement, but just considering it on face-value: how can people become good, informed consumers without having some kind of exposure to the concepts of how easily information can be collected about and used to manipulate people? I don't expect most high school students to inculcate the full breadth of the topic, just as so few seem to actually learn and retain anything about history, social studies, or even the freaking alphabet (I've met way too many people who think the English alphabet has 25 letters). But currently, the general populace has no idea the extent to which they and their data can be manipulated. It would be enough if all they learned was "you and your data can be manipulated".
- glial 6y ago
  > we're here to create good, informed consumers Wow, whatever happened to trying to create good, informed citizens?
  - moron4hire 6y ago
    Yeah, it was definitely "consumers" not "citizens". That was one of the parts that struck me right away. Glad I didn't go there.
- andrepd 6y ago
  >I remember my local high school's motto when I was growing up was something like, "we're not here to teach, we're here to create good, informed consumers". I don't get it, was this the actual real motto, or something people said tongue in cheek?

giancarlostoro 6y ago

Btw IG discovery is mainly based on people you follow and things you like. For example I see more memes and tech stuff on IG than I ever do of yoga pants. If I see something I dont like I mark it as not interested.

kpennell 6y ago
I know. I tried that so many times. I think I must have marked 'not interested' on thousands of posts at this point. For some reason, IG thinks I'm a track athlete (among many other things). Even for stuff I am legitimately into (like mountain biking), my IG explore page mostly serves me up these random accounts called things like 'MTBdaze' or 'bike247' that just seem to repost random pics/memes as a way to grow the follower count.
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  Oh I see, yeah that doesn't help sadly, for me though the stuff it shows me does not correlate with the people I follow at all. The algorithm must be weird I guess?

skizm 6y ago

> There's something so refreshingly playful, authentic, and raw about so much Tiktok content compared to Instagram. Isn't that because Tiktock's content is manually curated (for better or worse)?

WillPostForFood 6y ago
Is it manually curated? The article talks about how their algorithms are part of their core success. TouTiao was about the feed and the algorithm from the beginning. The first time a user opened TouTiao, the news might be rather generic, but every scroll, every linger over a story, every click, was fed into a feedback loop that refined what it was the user saw. Meanwhile all of that data fed back into TouTiao’s larger machine learning processes, which effectively ran billions of A/B tests a day on content of all types, cross-referenced against all of the user data it could collect. Soon the app was indispensable to its users, able to anticipate the news they cared about with nary a friend recommendation in sight.
- skizm 6y ago
  Probably a mix of manual and automated. I know where was a big stink semi-recently about them manually removing content from "ugly" and "poor" people. I guess no way to be 100% sure of the validity of the claims, but here is one article reporting on it: https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...
  - chillacy 6y ago
    I haven't verified this but supposedly this is now done automatically with machine learning: https://www.tiktokbeautiful.com/ https://www.tiktokbeautiful.com/
mercer 6y ago
I thought so too, but if the article is to be believed it's algorithmic / AI (with at the very least Chinese censors doing /some/ degree of curation).

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago

>Instagram (explore/discovery) is generally pretty people with pretty things in pretty places. TikTok actively pressured the moderators to filter out 'ugly, poor or disabled'[1]. I haven't used TikTok, but I think such apps of mass appeal at this age of intense screen time competition will resort activities like this; there is no magical reason for TikTok to be better than other limited attention social networks. Even though I never thought of using TikTok, now as a disabled person I feel morally obliged to not use it. [1]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/17/tiktok-tried-to-filter-out-videos-from-ugly-poor-or-disabled-users https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/17/tiktok-tr...

artificial 6y ago
Would that suggest that the moderation helped it gain immense popularity? If so how much in your opinion?
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  What I mentioned was least of TikTok's initial criticism. It was known to be a safe haven for much worse type of people(X) because the app was predominantly used by teens in Asian countries where child protection online laws are nearly nonexistent. Apart from turning a blind eye to it, along with moderation principles which made sure X got what they want, TikTok rose to market leader due to sheer number of Asian population. TikTok (Musically) was an Asian first app unlike Instagram, high Smartphone/Internet penetration acted as a catalyst. Only when they got prominence in western market, they started regulating the content for vulgarity.

biztos 6y ago

Instagram has other uses as well. I use it mostly to follow artists, so for me it’s primarily the world’s most interesting (constantly) changing exhibition. I see maybe one selfie a week. I also know people who use it for home workouts. I’m sure there are a bunch of other, non-shallow, non-bland uses I haven’t heard of.

kpennell 6y ago
True. I don't make tiktoks and my friends are on IG. It's basically a private friends video journal for that use. My point was more about content discovery.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ericls 6y ago

I believe people who switched from weed to meth share a similar experience.

vmception 6y ago

this is funny to read as I have five instagram accounts connected, and the one I have curated the least has TikTok teenage lip sync videos as default. Its literally Charlie De Malio all over the explore page. And no, this is not based on things I have liked. Its Hype House stuff promoted straight from Bytedance.

dirtyid 6y ago

>refreshingly playful That's the kind of content that survives the crucibles of Chinese censorship, "Creative and Joyful" opiate for the masses. This is an often overlooked aspect of Chinese social media / content filtering philosophy that has coalesced over time - block out the bad and divisive while elevating mundane joys. It's how the 50c operates, it floods the airwaves with small happy platitudes and avoids debates because engaging and challenging controversial topics (especially politics) is how toxicity is produced. It's counterproductive to even try. It's why TikTok's content policy is designed to protect the status quo, often misinterpreted as being pro-Beijing when it's broadly pro-establishment. The last thing Chinese social media platforms is designed to do is to start revolutions, encourage radicalization or sectarianism among impressionable audiences, things western social media platforms are dealing with now, and why they were blocked in China in the first place. E: IMO the style has it's place, whole of China has no choice but to live under it, but in the west, a plurality of content management philosophies calibrated for different audiences is good. There's lessons in managing toxicity to learn from TikTok even if it gets banned.

kpennell 6y ago
Sorry my original comment didn't cover this. Lots and lots of the content I see in my feed is liberal, left, anti-authoritarian. I get nuanced views about the black lives matter movement, feminism, social media, etc. even blatant critiques about what tiktok is doing to young people (especially young women). Maybe every 5th video in my feed is extremely political. It's not all just la-di-da dance and cat videos.
- dirtyid 6y ago
  West got their regionalized treatment and given more latitude in response to media pieces alleging political censorship last year. I surmise controversial content doesn't get promoted much outside the immediate circles. Main point is the DNA of why TikTok feels the way it does is connected to experiences learned cultivating media platforms behind Chinese firewall. Politics and toxicity exist all over Chinese internet as well, they just get filtered / harmonized over time or never reach many eyes in the first place. My hope is that TikTok sticks around at least long enough to monetize and demonstrate that social media doesn't have to primarily drive conflict to reach eyeballs. Douyin (TikTok parent app) is fairly profitable in China, but it's hard to tell if the model works unless its exported and flourishes under different cultural backgrounds.

jdminhbg 6y ago

> Tiktok, on the other hand, is playful, diverse, and interesting (at least my feed is). Once you start liking content, the feed completely changes from teenage lip sync videos or other teenager-oriented content into such a nice variety of content. I legitimately laugh my ass off or smile happily at so much of it. Other content teaches me about food, gardening, dancing, DIY, media theory, hiking alone, gender bending, etc. etc. The list goes on. Some of the videos delight me and others inform me. How did you get there? I played with TikTok for a while, but never escaped the "teenagers making videos about other teenagers to pop music" ghetto, and it didn't seem like there was a way for me to tell the algorithm what I wanted without just hoping it surfaced something that I could like.

kpennell 6y ago
make an account, start marking things as not interested, including songs (you have to tap and hold to see this on android) push like on the stuff you do.

kanox 6y ago

My TikTok feed is ~70% animal videos and honestly it's the best app for positive content. It starts with way too many young women dancing but you can just mark them as "not interesting" and they will diminish.