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In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it, and I'm Native Mexican, and I have very strong feelings about my ancestors

In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it, and I'm Native Mexican, and I have very strong feelings about my ancestors being enslaved. I was taught these words in the context of colonialism and slavery. I'm assuming you weren't. Edit: Glad to see the true nature of your culture. I probably won't come back.

luckylion 6y ago
> it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it I think that's pretty much the gist of everything these days.
- SambalOelek 6y ago
  Comments deleted due to brigading
  - zug_zug 6y ago
    >> You don't get to feel ... I don't think you get to tell other people what they get to feel. I encourage working on your empathy here. Who gets to decide "what's polite"? What if people disagree? Who gets to decide whose opinion counts?
    - SambalOelek 6y ago
      The trauma of being asked not to make rape jokes can't be compared to the trauma of being raped. Just do the right thing, is it worth the arguing?
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        You started off with a reasonable point, but please take a moment to rethink what you're saying. We're talking about words vs. words here. Nobody is enslaving anyone, which would be the equivalent to your utterly horrible analogy here.
        DonHopkins 6y ago
        >"Nobody is enslaving anyone" You're dead wrong. So you DO incorrectly believe that slavery is over and done with. I already presented you plenty of proof. Can you prove otherwise?
        Dylan16807 6y ago
        Context, please. Which is the people using these words in source code. The programmers are not, via their keyboards, enslaving anyone. Just like if I said "words vs. words here. Nobody is raping anyone." in the context of a terrible standup routine. I'm not talking about every action in the whole world.
      - zug_zug 6y ago
        >> The trauma of being asked not to make rape jokes can't be compared to the trauma of being raped. ??? >>> Just do the right thing, is it worth the arguing? So I think your argument is very all/nothing. There's a whole spectrum of "this thing offends 1 person" -> "this thing offends 100% of people", and we do have to draw a line (is it 20%? 50%?) and not simply label things "offensive." It's all especially confusing when some people are offended on "behalf" of others. I think oversimplifying this issue is wrong and making this very discussion "unsafe" is also wrong.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
seneca 6y ago
> In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it So you feeling strongly about it means that you get to decide another person, who has been a member of this community much longer than you, no longer gets a say? Ideas like this are infinitely more damaging than any technical terminology could ever be.
- josteink 6y ago
  This is the core of identity politics, and why it must be rejected outright anywhere it is promoted. It’s toxic to any reasonable and rational discourse.
terrytate9080 6y ago
You do realize every culture and race on planet earth has owned slaves right? It isn’t an exclusively American thing.
- apcragg 6y ago
  Exactly, all the more reason to move on from using that language. I'm glad you get it.
  - terrytate9080 6y ago
    Clearly you are missing the point. The context of the language in the Kernel has nothing to do with race or slavery. Where do we stop? I’m assuming next we want to remove the words entirely from the dictionary? Because we wouldn’t want to prevent anyone reading the dictionary would we? If removing those words from the dictionary helps even one person more read it, then that’s a win.
    - nemetroid 6y ago
      You lost me. The word ”slave” has nothing to do with slavery? It might not have to do with slavery in the US, but it very clearly refers to slavery.
      - drusepth 6y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homograph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homograph
        ppseafield 6y ago
        That doesn't mean what you think it means. To use an example from the link: > sow (verb) – to plant seed > sow (noun) – female pig Not only are these words pronounced differently, etymologically they have different roots. [0] Do you have any source that would demonstrate that the technical term 'slave' here has nothing to do with the historical enslavement of people? [0] https://www.etymonline.com/word/sow#etymonline_v_23936 https://www.etymonline.com/word/sow#etymonline_v_23936
loceng 6y ago
So it's impossible for you to create a new context where those words mean something different?
terrytate9080 6y ago
“SambalOelek 9 minutes ago [–] In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it, and I'm Native Mexican, “ So let me get this right. Your Mexican views count but his white views don’t matter? Ok.. How about don’t discount someone’s view just because they are or aren’t a certain skin color.
- SambalOelek 6y ago
  I said nothing about skin color. I said my ancestors were enslaved.
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    Whose ancestors haven't been enslaved?
  - quonn 6y ago
    My ancestors were probably farmers oppressed by some kings. Your point?
  - loco5niner 6y ago
    Mine certainly were too.
pinkfoot 6y ago
> In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. Here comes our Brave New Future.
cabraca 6y ago
master/slave just describes a type of relationship between two entities. there is nothing to feel strongly about. the context is what matters. using master/slave in a technical context is not immoral. using it to describe the relationship between people is.
- bsaul 6y ago
  it's not even immoral to describe human relationship this way if that's actually what's happening between the given humans. We've became offended by words, without context. It's just crazy... Master and slave , black and white. are becoming curse words.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    This. People got so confused they started fighting with words. What's interesting is that the reverse is happening. These words were completly innocuous, especially in this context. Now whenever I see a "blackilist" I think about black people and how this would offend them. Before I say something, I think a bit if I don't pronounce any word that might be assigned a negative value by someone. I speak less often. What is even more ridiculous is that it's an American thing. English speakers in other parts of the world look in amazement what is happening and how it's going to end.
    - SambalOelek 6y ago
      Let's say you are training a black intern. Do you think you could, with a straight face, explain the nuances of a master-slave relationship in the Linux ecocsystem? On some level, you must know these words have meaning.
      - pinkfoot 6y ago
        Done it a few times down here in Africa. Was never a problem. Presumably you'll now update your position based on my personal anecdote? [Or is that not how it works]
      - 6y ago
_-david-_ 6y ago
I assume you are also against killing a process right? My ancestors have been killed before so I should be able to decide whether we use the word kill.
- underyx 6y ago
  It helps to picture that there's a spectrum of offensiveness of words. The n-word, even if it somehow arbitrarily and innocently showed up in a project, perhaps as an unfortunate acronym, is at the far end of the spectrum. "Kill", for one, is lower by comparison, I think this claim has no burden of proof. These debates can be broken down into two smaller, more focused ones: 1) Where does a specific word, e.g. "master", or "kill", exist on this linear spectrum of offensiveness? 2) What should be the cut-off point where we actively work towards replacing terminology? As for question number one, I feel like I'm in no position to join the conversation, as I'm not part of an oppressed class. The only thing I can do is defer to the judgement of those who feel harmed, and I have no ground for arguing with this understanding of theirs. As for the second question, I'm inclined to set the bar fairly low. This is because the cost associated with replacing terminology is miniscule in the long run. In fact, I believe an order of magnitude more human effort has been spent on debating terminology updates, than spent on adapting to updates that have happened, such as the one in Python documentation.
  - dpau 6y ago
    good answer. (edit: i wasn't being facetious, i agreed with your comment.) and for anyone complaining about "wasting time" on this issue of terminology, i'd point them to the millions of hours lost due to tabs vs. spaces debates. it's not a waste of time, you just don't recognize it as important. defer to those who do.
    - underyx 6y ago
      I do recognize this debate as important. My intention was more to provide a comparison point as to how much it costs to update terminology, to support my stance of setting the bar for a justified update low.
aerojoe23 6y ago
I was in his boat. "Is this really going to matter to anyone?" It is comments like yours that made me realize that it does. I was wrong, he is wrong. While the policy should happen whether or not he supports it. I think it does matter how he feels though. He should feel that these words shouldn't be used in this context. Because, we're not going to solve non-whites being second class if a white people can't see the pain cause by the use of the terms. There are so many bigger problems that should be easier to see and acknowledge that seem to just be over looked, because we don't see the pain. I am with you SambalOelek. I may not understand everything you and your ancestors have gone through so forgive me when I'm ignorant and tell me about it. That said I don't want you or random people like you to have to do all the work, so I'm reading. https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/black-lives-matter https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/black-lives-matter
- hpcimg 6y ago
  I’m a black engineer and I don’t think this will help racism one bit.
  - SambalOelek 6y ago
    Do you think it'll hurt?
    - quonn 6y ago
      Absolutely, it will. The reason for that is that we will loose the support of a (large?) part of society who would otherwise help the cause.
      - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
        Yeah, I don't buy that one bit. If someone is all up in arms over some simple term changes like this, you somehow think they'll be an ally and supporter when it comes to more difficult reforms of structural racism?
        6y ago
nabla9 6y ago
It was proper to call you ancestors slaves and their owners master. In the same way it's proper to use same concept as a metaphor to describe other relationships where one thing is owned by other. There is nothing wrong or offensive in the concept of slavery. Even when the context is enslaving humans. Slavery is immoral, but the concept of slavery is not.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > In the same way it's proper to use same concept as a metaphor Use as a metaphor depends on similar perception of the resonant features of the literal use since it relies on those carrying over to the nonliteral use; it is eminently clear that within our society there is not a common share perception of those salient features, so it is not a particularly good metaphor outside of narrow homogenous subcultures, and what it is a good metaphor for within each of those subcultures will be wildly different. Metaphor is inherently highly culture-dependent.
  - nabla9 6y ago
    Slavery as a concept is very clear across cultures in a way that makes good metaphor. Slave is actor without autonomy. Master is controlling and owning the slave.
- smsx 6y ago
  By this logic, you think that something has to actually occur first before one can be morally opposed to it? I would have to first witness a genocide before I can have moral opposition to it? Of course concepts can have moral weight. To suggest otherwise is foolish.
  - nabla9 6y ago
    Using concept has no moral weight. Using word slave in a sentence is not a connected to morality of slavery.
quonn 6y ago
> it doesn't matter how you feel about it So his opinion does not matter? Only yours does? I was not only taught these words in the context of colonialism, because that‘s not only where they belong. Societies based on slavery were common in the ancient world, including Greece. All of this changing of vocabulary is not going to help anyone. But it will happen regardless, I‘m okay with watching this phenomenon play out over the next 30 years or so. Eventually society will figure out that this has done nothing to fix social injustices.
- MilnerRoute 6y ago
  So his opinion does not matter? Only yours does? There's an asymmetry here. Whether we recognize it or not, we're in a world where one side has all the institutionalized power, the extra advantages baked into the system. The way I've heard it expressed is "The ultimate privilege is not realizing you have a privilege." I know it can be an uncomfortable topic, but it's been said that that's what perpetuates the system: all the sincere denials, the honest statements of "I just don't see it. I've never experienced it, and I've never really seen it happening myself..." It ends up inadvertently invalidating anyone who attempts to challenge in even simple ways a few of the basic baked-in issues. I'm not sure how this conversation could've played out in a way that was better. But I do think there's a dynamic at work here that makes it not as simple as it seems...
  - quonn 6y ago
    Just because „it‘s said“ does not make it correct. I can‘t speak about the situation in the US. But I will speak about the situation in contemporary Germany. I completely reject all of this. Anyone who claims racism is baked into a (european) system should name those injustices (and not omit any corrective measures, for example built into the education and tax systems). Given that, any connection to languages (renaming stuff) should be proven as well. Just invoking some handwavy mistakes in the past is not sufficient. Invoking problems in the US is not sufficient. And even when those problems exist, this, by itself, is not a good reason to accept an arbitrary cause not supported by an argument. The claim that there is „one side“ with all the advantages is a distraction as well. There are many imbalances and injustices. They are not between two sides. Things that come to my mind are, for example: * Was your family rich? * Was your family educated? * Gender * Skin color * Family ties in the place you live * Accents/Habitus * Social strata * Political power This is a very basic listing. All of this may or may not have an influence. The fact that the current debate is more shallow than even that says a lot.
wonder_er 6y ago
I am sorry that the "blind to institutional racism" crowd jumped on this so hard. I'm with you, 100%. Most white people think the slavery/genocide of america's past is just that - it's in the past. So, when they hear people pushing on verbiage associated with it today, they think "oh, that person is dredging up ancient history, why don't they get over it?" I (and many others) would argue the legacy of that genocide and slavery is _alive and well_ and shapes our lives today, daily. [0][1] If one could reasonably complain about master/slave language in the south in the 1850s, they're reasonable to complain about that language today. Anyway, I think this work of getting rid of language rooted in violence and white supremacy is _very_ worth doing. It's just renaming branches, no one is asking someone to do anything more than press buttons on their keyboard. Certainly, not everyone has to, but I hope some companies do this work, they're thoughtful and intentional about their language, and then they deliver better products and services by virtue of having healthier culture than their competition, and grow wealthy. Wealthier than the companies who think this work is not worth doing. I'd never force someone else to rename branches, but I've renamed all of my branches I can control! I emailed Github Support to see if I could get away from using `master` on Github Pages on my personal site, and they said they are working on it, but this isn't available yet. Even this comment feels risky. It's attached to my name. I'm honestly a little intimidated to leave it, but it feels like a cop-out if I set up an anonymous account to say "I agree!" [0] https://www.sceneonradio.org/seeing-white/ https://www.sceneonradio.org/seeing-white/ [1] https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behind-the-police/id1518323701 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behind-the-police/id15...
- bsaul 6y ago
  You are opening the gates to hell, and don't even realize it. The same is happening pretty much everywhere in society, where everything becomes contextual and should be adapted to the personal sensitivities of individuals. Which is fine for everything that's fashionable. But code isn't (just) litterature or art or fashion. The first and foremost concern of code is to convey a precise meaning so that reader (and compilers) understand it correctly. How do you know it is going to stop to slavery ? How about every single people in the world start getting offended by words in code because it may remind them of something painful in their history, or just doesn't suit their culture / religion / whatever ? Will you have to create different branch of the linux kernel depending on where the code is going to be cloned ? Where is this going ? PS: i appreciate greatly that you say you wouldn't force anyone to change their wording, and only change it for yourself. I believe that's the right thing to do. But i feel you greatly underestimate the long-term consequences of supporting for "inclusive terminology"
throw0101a 6y ago
> […] I'm Native Mexican, and I have very strong feelings about my ancestors being enslaved. I was taught these words in the context of colonialism and slavery. My ancestors were / are from Eastern Europe, i.e., Slavs. The etymology of which is where the word slave actually comes from. Do I get a say? * https://www.etymonline.com/word/slave https://www.etymonline.com/word/slave * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
loco5niner 6y ago
> In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it So, you are the only one allowed to have feelings about this?

luckylion 6y ago

> it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it I think that's pretty much the gist of everything these days.

SambalOelek 6y ago
Comments deleted due to brigading
- zug_zug 6y ago
  >> You don't get to feel ... I don't think you get to tell other people what they get to feel. I encourage working on your empathy here. Who gets to decide "what's polite"? What if people disagree? Who gets to decide whose opinion counts?
  - SambalOelek 6y ago
    The trauma of being asked not to make rape jokes can't be compared to the trauma of being raped. Just do the right thing, is it worth the arguing?
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      You started off with a reasonable point, but please take a moment to rethink what you're saying. We're talking about words vs. words here. Nobody is enslaving anyone, which would be the equivalent to your utterly horrible analogy here.
      - DonHopkins 6y ago
        >"Nobody is enslaving anyone" You're dead wrong. So you DO incorrectly believe that slavery is over and done with. I already presented you plenty of proof. Can you prove otherwise?
        Dylan16807 6y ago
        Context, please. Which is the people using these words in source code. The programmers are not, via their keyboards, enslaving anyone. Just like if I said "words vs. words here. Nobody is raping anyone." in the context of a terrible standup routine. I'm not talking about every action in the whole world.
    - zug_zug 6y ago
      >> The trauma of being asked not to make rape jokes can't be compared to the trauma of being raped. ??? >>> Just do the right thing, is it worth the arguing? So I think your argument is very all/nothing. There's a whole spectrum of "this thing offends 1 person" -> "this thing offends 100% of people", and we do have to draw a line (is it 20%? 50%?) and not simply label things "offensive." It's all especially confusing when some people are offended on "behalf" of others. I think oversimplifying this issue is wrong and making this very discussion "unsafe" is also wrong.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

seneca 6y ago

> In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it So you feeling strongly about it means that you get to decide another person, who has been a member of this community much longer than you, no longer gets a say? Ideas like this are infinitely more damaging than any technical terminology could ever be.

josteink 6y ago
This is the core of identity politics, and why it must be rejected outright anywhere it is promoted. It’s toxic to any reasonable and rational discourse.

terrytate9080 6y ago

You do realize every culture and race on planet earth has owned slaves right? It isn’t an exclusively American thing.

apcragg 6y ago
Exactly, all the more reason to move on from using that language. I'm glad you get it.
- terrytate9080 6y ago
  Clearly you are missing the point. The context of the language in the Kernel has nothing to do with race or slavery. Where do we stop? I’m assuming next we want to remove the words entirely from the dictionary? Because we wouldn’t want to prevent anyone reading the dictionary would we? If removing those words from the dictionary helps even one person more read it, then that’s a win.
  - nemetroid 6y ago
    You lost me. The word ”slave” has nothing to do with slavery? It might not have to do with slavery in the US, but it very clearly refers to slavery.
    - drusepth 6y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homograph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homograph
      - ppseafield 6y ago
        That doesn't mean what you think it means. To use an example from the link: > sow (verb) – to plant seed > sow (noun) – female pig Not only are these words pronounced differently, etymologically they have different roots. [0] Do you have any source that would demonstrate that the technical term 'slave' here has nothing to do with the historical enslavement of people? [0] https://www.etymonline.com/word/sow#etymonline_v_23936 https://www.etymonline.com/word/sow#etymonline_v_23936

loceng 6y ago

So it's impossible for you to create a new context where those words mean something different?

terrytate9080 6y ago

“SambalOelek 9 minutes ago [–] In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it, and I'm Native Mexican, “ So let me get this right. Your Mexican views count but his white views don’t matter? Ok.. How about don’t discount someone’s view just because they are or aren’t a certain skin color.

SambalOelek 6y ago
I said nothing about skin color. I said my ancestors were enslaved.
- _-david-_ 6y ago
  Whose ancestors haven't been enslaved?
- quonn 6y ago
  My ancestors were probably farmers oppressed by some kings. Your point?
- loco5niner 6y ago
  Mine certainly were too.

pinkfoot 6y ago

> In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. Here comes our Brave New Future.

cabraca 6y ago

master/slave just describes a type of relationship between two entities. there is nothing to feel strongly about. the context is what matters. using master/slave in a technical context is not immoral. using it to describe the relationship between people is.

bsaul 6y ago
it's not even immoral to describe human relationship this way if that's actually what's happening between the given humans. We've became offended by words, without context. It's just crazy... Master and slave , black and white. are becoming curse words.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  This. People got so confused they started fighting with words. What's interesting is that the reverse is happening. These words were completly innocuous, especially in this context. Now whenever I see a "blackilist" I think about black people and how this would offend them. Before I say something, I think a bit if I don't pronounce any word that might be assigned a negative value by someone. I speak less often. What is even more ridiculous is that it's an American thing. English speakers in other parts of the world look in amazement what is happening and how it's going to end.
  - SambalOelek 6y ago
    Let's say you are training a black intern. Do you think you could, with a straight face, explain the nuances of a master-slave relationship in the Linux ecocsystem? On some level, you must know these words have meaning.
    - pinkfoot 6y ago
      Done it a few times down here in Africa. Was never a problem. Presumably you'll now update your position based on my personal anecdote? [Or is that not how it works]
    - 6y ago

_-david-_ 6y ago

I assume you are also against killing a process right? My ancestors have been killed before so I should be able to decide whether we use the word kill.

underyx 6y ago
It helps to picture that there's a spectrum of offensiveness of words. The n-word, even if it somehow arbitrarily and innocently showed up in a project, perhaps as an unfortunate acronym, is at the far end of the spectrum. "Kill", for one, is lower by comparison, I think this claim has no burden of proof. These debates can be broken down into two smaller, more focused ones: 1) Where does a specific word, e.g. "master", or "kill", exist on this linear spectrum of offensiveness? 2) What should be the cut-off point where we actively work towards replacing terminology? As for question number one, I feel like I'm in no position to join the conversation, as I'm not part of an oppressed class. The only thing I can do is defer to the judgement of those who feel harmed, and I have no ground for arguing with this understanding of theirs. As for the second question, I'm inclined to set the bar fairly low. This is because the cost associated with replacing terminology is miniscule in the long run. In fact, I believe an order of magnitude more human effort has been spent on debating terminology updates, than spent on adapting to updates that have happened, such as the one in Python documentation.
- dpau 6y ago
  good answer. (edit: i wasn't being facetious, i agreed with your comment.) and for anyone complaining about "wasting time" on this issue of terminology, i'd point them to the millions of hours lost due to tabs vs. spaces debates. it's not a waste of time, you just don't recognize it as important. defer to those who do.
  - underyx 6y ago
    I do recognize this debate as important. My intention was more to provide a comparison point as to how much it costs to update terminology, to support my stance of setting the bar for a justified update low.

aerojoe23 6y ago

I was in his boat. "Is this really going to matter to anyone?" It is comments like yours that made me realize that it does. I was wrong, he is wrong. While the policy should happen whether or not he supports it. I think it does matter how he feels though. He should feel that these words shouldn't be used in this context. Because, we're not going to solve non-whites being second class if a white people can't see the pain cause by the use of the terms. There are so many bigger problems that should be easier to see and acknowledge that seem to just be over looked, because we don't see the pain. I am with you SambalOelek. I may not understand everything you and your ancestors have gone through so forgive me when I'm ignorant and tell me about it. That said I don't want you or random people like you to have to do all the work, so I'm reading. https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/black-lives-matter https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/black-lives-matter

hpcimg 6y ago
I’m a black engineer and I don’t think this will help racism one bit.
- SambalOelek 6y ago
  Do you think it'll hurt?
  - quonn 6y ago
    Absolutely, it will. The reason for that is that we will loose the support of a (large?) part of society who would otherwise help the cause.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
      Yeah, I don't buy that one bit. If someone is all up in arms over some simple term changes like this, you somehow think they'll be an ally and supporter when it comes to more difficult reforms of structural racism?
      - 6y ago

nabla9 6y ago

It was proper to call you ancestors slaves and their owners master. In the same way it's proper to use same concept as a metaphor to describe other relationships where one thing is owned by other. There is nothing wrong or offensive in the concept of slavery. Even when the context is enslaving humans. Slavery is immoral, but the concept of slavery is not.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> In the same way it's proper to use same concept as a metaphor Use as a metaphor depends on similar perception of the resonant features of the literal use since it relies on those carrying over to the nonliteral use; it is eminently clear that within our society there is not a common share perception of those salient features, so it is not a particularly good metaphor outside of narrow homogenous subcultures, and what it is a good metaphor for within each of those subcultures will be wildly different. Metaphor is inherently highly culture-dependent.
- nabla9 6y ago
  Slavery as a concept is very clear across cultures in a way that makes good metaphor. Slave is actor without autonomy. Master is controlling and owning the slave.
smsx 6y ago
By this logic, you think that something has to actually occur first before one can be morally opposed to it? I would have to first witness a genocide before I can have moral opposition to it? Of course concepts can have moral weight. To suggest otherwise is foolish.
- nabla9 6y ago
  Using concept has no moral weight. Using word slave in a sentence is not a connected to morality of slavery.

quonn 6y ago

> it doesn't matter how you feel about it So his opinion does not matter? Only yours does? I was not only taught these words in the context of colonialism, because that‘s not only where they belong. Societies based on slavery were common in the ancient world, including Greece. All of this changing of vocabulary is not going to help anyone. But it will happen regardless, I‘m okay with watching this phenomenon play out over the next 30 years or so. Eventually society will figure out that this has done nothing to fix social injustices.

MilnerRoute 6y ago
So his opinion does not matter? Only yours does? There's an asymmetry here. Whether we recognize it or not, we're in a world where one side has all the institutionalized power, the extra advantages baked into the system. The way I've heard it expressed is "The ultimate privilege is not realizing you have a privilege." I know it can be an uncomfortable topic, but it's been said that that's what perpetuates the system: all the sincere denials, the honest statements of "I just don't see it. I've never experienced it, and I've never really seen it happening myself..." It ends up inadvertently invalidating anyone who attempts to challenge in even simple ways a few of the basic baked-in issues. I'm not sure how this conversation could've played out in a way that was better. But I do think there's a dynamic at work here that makes it not as simple as it seems...
- quonn 6y ago
  Just because „it‘s said“ does not make it correct. I can‘t speak about the situation in the US. But I will speak about the situation in contemporary Germany. I completely reject all of this. Anyone who claims racism is baked into a (european) system should name those injustices (and not omit any corrective measures, for example built into the education and tax systems). Given that, any connection to languages (renaming stuff) should be proven as well. Just invoking some handwavy mistakes in the past is not sufficient. Invoking problems in the US is not sufficient. And even when those problems exist, this, by itself, is not a good reason to accept an arbitrary cause not supported by an argument. The claim that there is „one side“ with all the advantages is a distraction as well. There are many imbalances and injustices. They are not between two sides. Things that come to my mind are, for example: * Was your family rich? * Was your family educated? * Gender * Skin color * Family ties in the place you live * Accents/Habitus * Social strata * Political power This is a very basic listing. All of this may or may not have an influence. The fact that the current debate is more shallow than even that says a lot.

wonder_er 6y ago

I am sorry that the "blind to institutional racism" crowd jumped on this so hard. I'm with you, 100%. Most white people think the slavery/genocide of america's past is just that - it's in the past. So, when they hear people pushing on verbiage associated with it today, they think "oh, that person is dredging up ancient history, why don't they get over it?" I (and many others) would argue the legacy of that genocide and slavery is _alive and well_ and shapes our lives today, daily. [0][1] If one could reasonably complain about master/slave language in the south in the 1850s, they're reasonable to complain about that language today. Anyway, I think this work of getting rid of language rooted in violence and white supremacy is _very_ worth doing. It's just renaming branches, no one is asking someone to do anything more than press buttons on their keyboard. Certainly, not everyone has to, but I hope some companies do this work, they're thoughtful and intentional about their language, and then they deliver better products and services by virtue of having healthier culture than their competition, and grow wealthy. Wealthier than the companies who think this work is not worth doing. I'd never force someone else to rename branches, but I've renamed all of my branches I can control! I emailed Github Support to see if I could get away from using `master` on Github Pages on my personal site, and they said they are working on it, but this isn't available yet. Even this comment feels risky. It's attached to my name. I'm honestly a little intimidated to leave it, but it feels like a cop-out if I set up an anonymous account to say "I agree!" [0] https://www.sceneonradio.org/seeing-white/ https://www.sceneonradio.org/seeing-white/ [1] https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behind-the-police/id1518323701 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behind-the-police/id15...

bsaul 6y ago
You are opening the gates to hell, and don't even realize it. The same is happening pretty much everywhere in society, where everything becomes contextual and should be adapted to the personal sensitivities of individuals. Which is fine for everything that's fashionable. But code isn't (just) litterature or art or fashion. The first and foremost concern of code is to convey a precise meaning so that reader (and compilers) understand it correctly. How do you know it is going to stop to slavery ? How about every single people in the world start getting offended by words in code because it may remind them of something painful in their history, or just doesn't suit their culture / religion / whatever ? Will you have to create different branch of the linux kernel depending on where the code is going to be cloned ? Where is this going ? PS: i appreciate greatly that you say you wouldn't force anyone to change their wording, and only change it for yourself. I believe that's the right thing to do. But i feel you greatly underestimate the long-term consequences of supporting for "inclusive terminology"

throw0101a 6y ago

> […] I'm Native Mexican, and I have very strong feelings about my ancestors being enslaved. I was taught these words in the context of colonialism and slavery. My ancestors were / are from Eastern Europe, i.e., Slavs. The etymology of which is where the word slave actually comes from. Do I get a say? * https://www.etymonline.com/word/slave https://www.etymonline.com/word/slave * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology

deleted 6y ago
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loco5niner 6y ago

> In all honesty, it doesn't matter how you feel about it. I do feel strongly about it So, you are the only one allowed to have feelings about this?