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There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up. It doesn't matter what device you use unless there's a physical switch to disconnect it'll
by alunchbox 6y ago
There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up. It doesn't matter what device you use unless there's a physical switch to disconnect it'll never be safe. Software can ALWAYS have zero days, just because it hasn't been exploited yet doesn't mean it can't be.
- the-pigeon 6y agoBut can't you specifically wire the indicator light to always be lit if the camera has power? I don't see Apple claiming they've done that but a correct design would make the indicator light work that way and be related to software at all. Meaning you could only disable the indicator light by physically modifying the device.
- ohazi 6y agoThis is the only correct design, yet almost nobody does this. One of the challenges is verifying that this was done correctly. You may be able to verify a design like this once with a teardown, but it's impractical to verify your particular device, and next to impossible to re-verify this every time you leave your laptop unattended.
- foota 6y agoMy threat model doesn't involve someone disassembling my laptop and rewiring it, at that point they might as well just plant a bug.
- inopinatus 6y agoThis isn’t speculation. Opening up hardware to modify the internals is something that covert agencies do, and it’s naive to think that the purpose is equivalent to a simple bug. As someone who posts to Hacker News you are by almost any definition a potential information source or APT vector.
- PascLeRasc 6y agoApple's already addressed this by making their laptops nearly impossible to open up.
- sjwright 6y agoYes, nearly impossible... unless you spend $5 at Amazon on a screwdriver in which case it’s trivial.
- inopinatus 6y agoI had an Apple on-site support engineer open up a 16” MBP on my kitchen table a couple of weeks ago to replace a cracked screen, and he brought only a small tool roll, a headlamp, and a anti-static work surface and wrist-strap. Took him only a few minutes to strip it down, longer to rebuild and recommission for use. I must add, I peeked over his shoulder a few times, and my comment that it looks as good inside as it does out was answered with “yes, it’s like being asked to restore a work of art”.
- PascLeRasc 6y agoI was just trying to make a joke. I've actually been very happy with working on my MBP, it was easier to re-paste than a Dell XPS from the same year. The interior of Macbooks I've seen have been laid out remarkably well.
- anang 6y agoI think what they mean is their threat model is more drive by random attacks rather than concerted efforts by intelligence agencies. For the former a piece of tape is enough.
- bsder 6y ago> This isn’t speculation. He didn't say it was. What he said was that his threat model doesn't include state agencies. Many people use their laptops in bed and they probably don't want random people using their laptop webcam to take random nudes. And, while I hear the NSA being quoted a lot, let's be fair, how many of us have the opsec to stand up to a genuine NSA attack? A reasonable goal in thwarting the NSA should be to stop some random bureaucrat from typing on a few keys and getting access to your stuff without a signature. As long as some bureaucrat has to put their signature on a piece of paper and get budget to get my stuff, I'm safe against random trawling. Besides, if the NSA really wants you, they'll just fabricate the evidence. It's way cheaper.
- _kst_ 6y agoMy work laptop (a Thinkpad) has a built-in plastic slider that physically covers the camera. If something activates the camera while that cover is closed, it won't see anything.
- int_19h 6y agoNot only that, but this feature is also present in X1, which is plenty thin.
- mcv 6y agoI came here to post exactly this about my X1E. First laptop I've seen that has a builtin slider (though I'm sure there are others).
- ohazi 6y agoI wanted this, but I wanted the WQHD display more. Lenovo didn't allow you to configure a T480 with both the high-resolution display and the plastic slider, it was either-or. The high-resolution display was their premium option that omitted the slider and added two more IR cameras for Windows Hello support. So in addition to not getting the slider, I also had to disable the IR cameras. I'm half tempted to buy the version of the display bezel with the slider and see if it'll fit as a replacement.
- SilasX 6y agoBingo. It's a lot simpler to just allow the user to physically block the lens, which vetoes everything[1], rather than trust or verify that all that stuff is implemented correctly and reliably. [1] Yes, yes, assuming you can block all frequencies the camera is capable of detecting.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- maerF0x0 6y agoeven then there probably should be some minimum "flash" time in that if it turns on and off faster than the LED lights up or human eyes can see then it may still take images faster than we can register? EDIT: a commenter below said "Macs newer than 4 or so years also have a feature that forces the LED to stay lit for at least 3 seconds after it has been turned on to prevent the single-frame-grab attack."
- cgriswald 6y agoFrankly, by the time the indicator is noticed, it may be too late. Even with the LED wired in place and a 'feature' (capacitor or software?) forcing it to stay lit for 3 seconds, the damage may be done. It does, at least, let you know an attack occurred. I really think an LED is barking up the wrong tree. A built-in hardware cover would have the same effect as the LED, and no one would have to trust it, since the camera would just be recording the back of the cover if it was hacked in stealth mode.
- JadeNB 6y agoHow would you handle the microphone? I don't know any hardware way to make sure my microphone's not hearing me if I can't trust the software.
- CydeWeys 6y agoA physical electrical on/off switch for the microphone (that actually interrupts the wires going to the mic).
- JadeNB 6y agoDoesn't that require the same kind of trust in the correctness of the wiring that is at issue in some other comments? I can see that a camera cover works, but I think I couldn't see that a physical switch was actually interrupting the wiring without doing a teardown.
- 6y ago
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoSure, but can you guarantee any particular webcam wasn't intercepted and modified before being delivered? Can you guarantee the manufacturer followed the design specification for every batch? Threat models matter.
- colordrops 6y agoEven if they did claim that why should we trust that they did it correctly and without unintentional or intentional vulnerability?
- aahhahahaaa 6y agoThis has been the case for quite some time (10 years or so). I've torn apart two Macbooks to specifically test this and the LED is enabled when the camera receives power. It's impossible to disable with software. You can modify the Macbook of course, which is why the paranoid type will still use tape. Some attacks I've seen will take a photo with the camera as fast as possible so you might not notice, but the light will always turn on.
- rovr138 6y agoI think newer ones even route it through the T1 chip. Need to look again. There was an exploit, over 10 years ago like you said, that allow to disable it. But that was corrected. Edit - iıSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED - This was 2008 - https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/bitstream/handle/1774.2/36569/camera.pdf https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/bitstream/handle/1774.2... Looking for t1 links. Edit 2 Can't find anything confirming the t1 right now..
- Godel_unicode 6y agoThe T chip in modern MacBooks is the T2, and it's certainly used for the mic cutoff. I'm unaware of public disclosures around it's use for the camera. https://support.apple.com/guide/security/hardware-microphone-disconnect-mac-ipad-secbbd20b00b/1/web/1 https://support.apple.com/guide/security/hardware-microphone...
- saagarjha 6y agoOn MacBooks the disconnect is done without the T2 being involved.
- fearingreprisal 6y ago> It's impossible to disable with software. > iSeeYou ( 2008 ) Which is it?
- varjag 6y ago
- m463 6y agoIn the case of the school district spying on the kids, the light would just blink and be gone.
- rkagerer 6y agoBetter but not bulletproof; LED's can fail. Manufacturers might consider leaving a shallow recess around the camera to accommodate the paranoid among us.
- lliamander 6y agoThe important thing isn't whether the indicator will be lit or not. The point is whether you will be able to prevent the camera from taking a video/picture you don't want it to. Unless you can physically disconnect or block the camera, there's not guarantee that a piece of software can't record. The best Apple can offer here is that you will know the recording was done (assuming you are looking at your computer, and not looking away or in another room) .
- NileTheGreat 6y agoA couple hypotheticals here: A way to overvoltage/current and burn out the LED. Probability low, but nonzero. More plausible situation: There are times when the camera is pointed at me, but my head is not pointed at the camera. Perhaps I left the laptop on in the corner of a room while it's playing music, or a myriad of other things. A cover is a simple, foolproof solution to the camera issue.
- AceJohnny2 6y ago> There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up Yeah, people who don't understand how hardware works.
- maps7 6y agoWhat do you mean?
- acdha 6y agoOr, more accurately, he and his security experts are weighing the challenge of accurately assessing potential hardware failures against the $0.50 of tape which provably prevents them. If you’re a high-value target there is a lot to be said for layered defenses and easily verified safety measures.
- jschwartzi 6y agoAnd also because he values his own privacy, just not anyone else's.
- perl4ever 6y agoWhy The FBI Director Puts Tape Over His Webcam "Because I saw somebody smarter than I am had a piece of tape over their camera" https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/08/473548674/why-the-fbi-director-puts-tape-over-his-webcam https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/08/473548674...
- ehsankia 6y ago> unless there's a physical switch to disconnect The light indicator in modern webcams is a "physical" indicator. Sure, it won't stop it from being hacked, but it will light up whenever it is active. That part can't be hacked, since it's in the hardware.
- Spooky23 6y agoZuckerberg is probably compromised by multiple nation states in some way at any time. It’s a very different threat than most people have.
- nullc 6y agoMost people? Sure. Most people on hacker news? Unclear. I think a really large portion of users here would be extremely good attack targets. Developers with privileged access to source code and operations staff with privileged access to systems make up a significant portion of the users here. Besides: Most people don't accidentally want to show up on a video conference while undressed when they accidentally hit the wrong button in some confusing skeumorphic app specific interface: The LED only warns you after its too late.
- artsyca 6y ago100%. The bank I used to work at had a part of the employee handbook dedicated to what happens if you're kidnapped. We're just being naive and casual as we are wont to do. Bro don't worry have another free granola bar. And in fact one of the devs was poached by a shady bunch of foreign looking suits who would have fit right in with big brother. In all fairness you have a split second between the light coming on and the video stream initializing to err hide your shame. What are you doing in front of your computer with no pants on? Naked yoga?
- IncRnd 6y ago120%. I used to work in an industry where a developer was killed in a drive-by shooting, after he reported certain code to the regulatory agency. Generally speaking - as developers type away on their packet handling or authentication code, they all too naively believe they won't be a target of a new friend or bribe.
- matwood 6y agoNation states compromising Zuckerberg come in the front door and shake his hand.
- mahaganapati 6y agoTesting on my phone at least, tape does nothing to prevent discernable audio from being recorded. I think the device would need to be encased to block the microphone
- m12m3kg 6y agoZukerberg did that to troll all the privacy paranoics
- eecc 6y agoOften that switch is just a peripheral that gets interpreted by software
- valuearb 6y agoIs the reason it’s not a Mac? Cause Mac video cameras are hard wired to the light and have been for many years.
- ianamartin 6y agoThat wasn't Zuck's laptop. That was an accident of the interview location.
- xwdv 6y ago> There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up. Virtue signaling mostly. It’s not difficult to open a laptop and remove those components all together. Especially for someone like Zuckerberg.
- asveikau 6y agoRemoving components also removes functionality. What if he wants to use it later? I guess he could have another laptop specially for the purpose, he can certainly afford that. I think the simplest explanation is whoever was staging the scenery around him didn't think anybody would notice the taped laptop. If they did realize that, they probably would have untaped. It wasn't meant to be a detail you notice or centerpiece of conversation. That's my guess.
- Godel_unicode 6y agoThere are also doctors who are anti-vaccine, financial planners who don't max out 401ks, sysadmins with unpatched home systems, etc. Just because someone could possibly know that the thing they're doing is illogical doesn't mean they act on that knowledge. > There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up This is an incredibly weakly phrased argument; there's a reason people are flat-earthers as well. The existence of a reason does not automatically make that reason a good one. I actually take his webcam tape to mean that his security group (which includes people who have serious hardware chops) doesn't think that the investment in a better option is worth it. Lastly, about that 0day argument. Many camera LEDs are implemented in hardware, which means instead of hardware prevention they have hardware detection. There are reasons for both, and neither is unambiguously better.
- gmantg 6y agoUnlike a led light, a piece of tape prevents unauthorized webcam access.
- Godel_unicode 6y agoWhich, as I said, us hardware prevention. It stops someone from recording you, it also stops you from knowing someone tried to record you (i.e. hardware detection). The hacking consequences I care about are having my bank accounts drained, not having my picture taken.
- gmantg 6y agoThis is what audit records are for. Unless you expect the bad guys to respect your schedule, you won't be around to see the LED light.
- Godel_unicode 6y agoGoogle "rootkit". This is a great example of theoretical security vs actual security. In theory, people review logs on their personal machines and hunt for bad guys. In practice, virtually nobody has ever done that. The reality is that personal laptop compromises are discovered through side-effects. Heat, sluggishness, webcam turning on, accounts being hijacked.
- Gene_Parmesan 6y agoSeeing that pic was eyeopening for me. I believe he had other ports taped over as well. At the same time, he's going to be an exclusive target for myriad actors big and small, up to and including entire nations, so extra paranoia is probably warranted.
- artsyca 6y agoThe irony of this is too much. The guy who pioneered privacy invasion as a philosophy is guarding his own privacy. He should have a Facebook live stream following him 24/7
- coldtea 6y ago>There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up. Given the business he is in, the reason is blatant hypocrisy?
- gsich 6y agoNot really.