7 ms·

This kind of surveillance is not very effective for preventing or solving crimes. It is much more effective at making lists of people willing to lawfully and p

by nullc 6y ago

This kind of surveillance is not very effective for preventing or solving crimes. It is much more effective at making lists of people willing to lawfully and peacefully stand for the human rights or others, -- "potential subversives", as the parties monitoring might call them. Imagine, instead, if law enforcement were to stand outside of a marijuana-legalization rally and collect the sort of data effectively collected here: name, address, duration of involvement. They'd end up in court immediately, and it would likely be found that their actions had a chilling effect which created a prior restraint on the public's constitutionally protected speech. Yet online this kind of data collection amasses more data and is more chilling due secretive nature since you never know when you're not being tracked.

TeeMassive 6y ago
The problem right now is that there are a lot of people who want to (and did) commit violent acts and use black block tactics. They openly encourage lawful protesters to dress homogeneously all clad in black under the pretense of protecting protesters against police but in fact they do so to commit acts of violence and then meld away in the crowd, effectively taking hostage the lawful protesters. The argument can be made that to protect peaceful assemblies, tools need to be engineered so those rioters can be differentiated from the lawful protesters and bring them to justice.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > The argument can be made that to protect peaceful assemblies, tools need to be engineered so those rioters can be differentiated from the lawful protesters and bring them to justice. This is the same reasoning behind the argument for putting backdoors into crypto algorithms, and it's a bad argument for the same reasons.
- joshribakoff 6y ago
  As a law abiding protestor I don’t buy this because it was done to me without my knowledge. They can use tools to watch criminals without compiling data on peaceful protestors without their knowledge
- mintplant 6y ago
  You write with such conviction and certainty, and yet I must point out that it's black bloc, not "block".
  - hevelvarik 6y ago
    The grandparent also wrote with absolute conviction but you take no issue with that because spelling, right
    - mintplant 6y ago
      I'm expressing doubt that 'TeeMassive is well-informed about black bloc tactics or that their claims are rooted in truth, since they made a basic error that would seem to stem from third-hand hearsay.
      - Xylakant 6y ago
        Or it could stem from mere auto completion or any kind of spell checking.
  - pnako 6y ago
    Do you have a problem with grammar anarchists?
  - pmarreck 6y ago
    I, too, used to be a grammar fascist. Then I fell in love with an otherwise quite intelligent woman with dyslexia At some point I just stopped trying to correct her to/too/two confusion It would be nice if everyone used correct grammar. But you understood what they were trying to say, which is what made it possible for you to suggest the correction. What I'm getting at is that I now think it's impolite to call someone out on their grammer in a public forum (I know you saw what I did, there) The tone of online discourse has eroded so badly of late that I think it's best to become a politeness fascist now. We don't call people out on their lisp, their tics, their stutter, their mumbling, their gait... but calling people out on their spelling online is OK apparently
- aspaceman 6y ago
  > tools need to be engineered so those rioters can be differentiated from the lawful protesters and bring them to justice. Tools need to be engineered to bring murderers, killers, rapists, and jackbooted jarheads to justice. Murderers are being let free. Society should revolt at such injustice. I wish folks talked with such conviction about the folks raping, murdering, and killing with impunity. Beating protestors without care, etc. Instead they reserve "bring them to justice" for broken windows and stolen Nikes. What a country.
- zimpenfish 6y ago
  > dress homogeneously all clad in black Much like the police when they obscure or remove their names and/or badge numbers, no? > but in fact they do so to commit acts of violence and then meld away in the crowd, effectively taking hostage the lawful protesters. Yep, you got that right.
due737y3 6y ago
I'm not sure the crime solving utility is wholly relevant here, police have other duties like maintaining public safety. The obvious utility seems to be monitoring different protest zones for signs that violence is beginning to break out. If x people are suddenly tweeting about a fire or gun shots near an active protest then you know it would probably be wise to at least send a scout over there to evaluate the situation. This method also has the benefit of removing the need to have riot-ready police pre-emptively deployed to zones where everyone is keeping things calm. Anecdotally, I was able to spectate active looting in my own city's downtown when the protests first came to us via various livestreaming instagrammers and while it was mostly a curiosity for me I imagine it would have been useful to a dispatcher who had to decide where to send officers. I don't see why twitter couldn't serve a similarly useful purpose.
- aspaceman 6y ago
  > The obvious utility seems to be monitoring different protest zones for signs that violence is beginning to break out. There's an easier way of knowing when violence is happening. Just have the cops report when they decide to start beating and shooting innocent civilians. I'm sure they'll be thrilled to let folks know when their partner decided to kill someone innocent or beat some faces in. After all, their duty is to "maintain public safety".
  - pnako 6y ago
    I would say this is a 5-year-old's understanding of the police, if not for the fact that 5 year olds (at least boys) typically like anything related to the police.
    - gophicer 6y ago
      You must be white.
      - textgel 6y ago
        Does anyone know mechanically what this^ is? The account has sat dormant for 2 years after making 2 comments in 2018 and after 2 years of silence it spits out this. Is it part of some sort of farmed bot network? Or is it an old account that got cracked and used by spammers?
raxxorrax 6y ago
Twitter-affiliated is interesting too since the pretend to care so much about the issue. Well, they seem to care on a very personal level.
- 0xy 6y ago
  They care the minimum amount required to shut up their vocal employees on this issue.
- tharne 6y ago
  When corporations take a stand on an issue, they're just making a bet on who they think is going to win, it's got nothing to do with morals. I guarantee if Trump got legitimately reelected with 80% of the vote, you'd see every company quickly replacing those "We Stand with BLM" banners with some bright red MAGA flair.
onion2k 6y ago
Imagine, instead, if law enforcement were to stand outside of a marijuana-legalization rally and collect the sort of data effectively collected here: name, address, duration of involvement. They sort of do, by filming it and using facial recognition to identify people.

by nullc 6y ago

TeeMassive 6y ago

The problem right now is that there are a lot of people who want to (and did) commit violent acts and use black block tactics. They openly encourage lawful protesters to dress homogeneously all clad in black under the pretense of protecting protesters against police but in fact they do so to commit acts of violence and then meld away in the crowd, effectively taking hostage the lawful protesters. The argument can be made that to protect peaceful assemblies, tools need to be engineered so those rioters can be differentiated from the lawful protesters and bring them to justice.

heavyset_go 6y ago
> The argument can be made that to protect peaceful assemblies, tools need to be engineered so those rioters can be differentiated from the lawful protesters and bring them to justice. This is the same reasoning behind the argument for putting backdoors into crypto algorithms, and it's a bad argument for the same reasons.
joshribakoff 6y ago
As a law abiding protestor I don’t buy this because it was done to me without my knowledge. They can use tools to watch criminals without compiling data on peaceful protestors without their knowledge
mintplant 6y ago
You write with such conviction and certainty, and yet I must point out that it's black bloc, not "block".
- hevelvarik 6y ago
  The grandparent also wrote with absolute conviction but you take no issue with that because spelling, right
  - mintplant 6y ago
    I'm expressing doubt that 'TeeMassive is well-informed about black bloc tactics or that their claims are rooted in truth, since they made a basic error that would seem to stem from third-hand hearsay.
    - Xylakant 6y ago
      Or it could stem from mere auto completion or any kind of spell checking.
- pnako 6y ago
  Do you have a problem with grammar anarchists?
- pmarreck 6y ago
  I, too, used to be a grammar fascist. Then I fell in love with an otherwise quite intelligent woman with dyslexia At some point I just stopped trying to correct her to/too/two confusion It would be nice if everyone used correct grammar. But you understood what they were trying to say, which is what made it possible for you to suggest the correction. What I'm getting at is that I now think it's impolite to call someone out on their grammer in a public forum (I know you saw what I did, there) The tone of online discourse has eroded so badly of late that I think it's best to become a politeness fascist now. We don't call people out on their lisp, their tics, their stutter, their mumbling, their gait... but calling people out on their spelling online is OK apparently
aspaceman 6y ago
> tools need to be engineered so those rioters can be differentiated from the lawful protesters and bring them to justice. Tools need to be engineered to bring murderers, killers, rapists, and jackbooted jarheads to justice. Murderers are being let free. Society should revolt at such injustice. I wish folks talked with such conviction about the folks raping, murdering, and killing with impunity. Beating protestors without care, etc. Instead they reserve "bring them to justice" for broken windows and stolen Nikes. What a country.
zimpenfish 6y ago
> dress homogeneously all clad in black Much like the police when they obscure or remove their names and/or badge numbers, no? > but in fact they do so to commit acts of violence and then meld away in the crowd, effectively taking hostage the lawful protesters. Yep, you got that right.

due737y3 6y ago

I'm not sure the crime solving utility is wholly relevant here, police have other duties like maintaining public safety. The obvious utility seems to be monitoring different protest zones for signs that violence is beginning to break out. If x people are suddenly tweeting about a fire or gun shots near an active protest then you know it would probably be wise to at least send a scout over there to evaluate the situation. This method also has the benefit of removing the need to have riot-ready police pre-emptively deployed to zones where everyone is keeping things calm. Anecdotally, I was able to spectate active looting in my own city's downtown when the protests first came to us via various livestreaming instagrammers and while it was mostly a curiosity for me I imagine it would have been useful to a dispatcher who had to decide where to send officers. I don't see why twitter couldn't serve a similarly useful purpose.

aspaceman 6y ago
> The obvious utility seems to be monitoring different protest zones for signs that violence is beginning to break out. There's an easier way of knowing when violence is happening. Just have the cops report when they decide to start beating and shooting innocent civilians. I'm sure they'll be thrilled to let folks know when their partner decided to kill someone innocent or beat some faces in. After all, their duty is to "maintain public safety".
- pnako 6y ago
  I would say this is a 5-year-old's understanding of the police, if not for the fact that 5 year olds (at least boys) typically like anything related to the police.
  - gophicer 6y ago
    You must be white.
    - textgel 6y ago
      Does anyone know mechanically what this^ is? The account has sat dormant for 2 years after making 2 comments in 2018 and after 2 years of silence it spits out this. Is it part of some sort of farmed bot network? Or is it an old account that got cracked and used by spammers?

raxxorrax 6y ago

Twitter-affiliated is interesting too since the pretend to care so much about the issue. Well, they seem to care on a very personal level.

0xy 6y ago
They care the minimum amount required to shut up their vocal employees on this issue.
tharne 6y ago
When corporations take a stand on an issue, they're just making a bet on who they think is going to win, it's got nothing to do with morals. I guarantee if Trump got legitimately reelected with 80% of the vote, you'd see every company quickly replacing those "We Stand with BLM" banners with some bright red MAGA flair.

onion2k 6y ago

Imagine, instead, if law enforcement were to stand outside of a marijuana-legalization rally and collect the sort of data effectively collected here: name, address, duration of involvement. They sort of do, by filming it and using facial recognition to identify people.