10 ms·

H-1B: Government issues first-ever official estimate of visa population in U.S.

102 points by hanging 6y ago

rpiguy 6y ago
The H-1B program is terrible and needs to be reformed. It is supposed to temporarily shore up the supply of critically skilled workers that are in demand. While it does this, when the program was envisioned no one imagined H-1B visa holders working here for 10+ years. If only there were a word for the importation of minority labor and locking them into employment with their sponsor, effectively reducing their negotiating power for salary to zero... Not to mention by artificially suppressing H-1B salaries over time, it puts negative wage pressure on US workers in similar positions. I believe H-1B workers should be offered green cards if they are here for more than 2-3 years, so they can negotiate on equal footing with US citizens.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  > If only there were a word for the importation of minority labor and locking them into employment with their sponsor, effectively reducing their negotiating power for salary to zero... It really doesn't do that. To be fair, H-1Bs are supposed to be in-demand specialty workers, to meet the spirit of the program. That means they have, by definition, negotiating power. I've spent a lot of time in H-1 status and I have definitely negotiated my compensation -- with both current and prospective employers. This data is available for you to search, and it's all public record. You can find my salary in the database. [1] [1] https://h1bdata.info/ https://h1bdata.info/
  - Lammy 6y ago
    It's fundamentally not a level playing field in "at-will" employment states where losing a job means finding a new one or leaving the country within <x> number of days.
  - paulgb 6y ago
    I've also had several employers (from a startup to a FAANG) tell me that an H-1B transfer would be no problem. I haven't actually done it, but I don't feel as mobility-impared as people seem to believe I should.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      H-1B transfers are quick (14 days with premium processing), easy and you can file speculatively if you're looking at a couple of potential employers but are afraid it may not go through. Your current employer will not be notified and you do not need to move forward with the transfer if you change your mind.
  - monoideism 6y ago
    Economists have researched that data, and consistently confirmed what the GP asserted: "Research by Daniel Costa, of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, and Howard University political science professor Ron Hira, found that 60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region. Google, Facebook and Apple “take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill,” Costa and Hira said in an Economic Policy Institute paper." (from the article above)
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      "60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region." As opposed to 50% of the normal workforce which receives lower-than-average wages by definition? Feels like that number, while significant, was framed to be sensational. I'm curious how much of this is attributable to: 1. Technical skill level. Are they new grads or junior folks? Is this skew happening because the senior folks roll off onto green cards? 2. Soft skill level. Are employers taking on folks with language skills or management skills or cultural skills that need to be leveled up? Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs?
      - monoideism 6y ago
        Actually, I think that number doesn't even really capture the problem. Because it doesn't indicate by how much those workers salary is lower than average. The studies I've seen on this suggest it's a significant gap. I'll see if I can find that study, and others. >Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs? I'd be very surprised if it didn't at least improve. But it still results in suppressed salaries for American workers. And isn't some weird conspiracy that tech CEOs believe salaries are far too high and want to suppress them: we have emails of them discussing exactly that (in another context not involving immigration) EDIT: I previously had some other suggestions, but I think the most beneficial and abuse-proof system for all involved would be to have the tech companies bid for visas (as many others have suggested). That should eliminate the potential for abuse.
  - e9 6y ago
    Yes it does do that and worse. When I was on H1b years back in big co, most of my coworkers were on h1b as well and they were scared to death to leave because of comfort and self doubt. Some manager knew this and abused this power by pointing out that their green card application can be withdrawn any moment if they don’t work on weekends.
  - ardit33 6y ago
    This is so wrong, it is comical. You have a lot less leverage, especially if you want/are in the process of getting a green card. As a former H1B holder (and currently on a Green Card), being on a H-1B has prevented me: 1. Not accepting a higher salary offer, but going with a more 'safe option' 2. Having to negotiate for asap Green Card application, vs. salary 3. Not being able to accept a promotion to a manager, as I had a ongoing Green Card application as engineer/ic, and that would jeopardize my green card application 4. Not being able to create, or join a very early startup 5. Having high anxiety, for all the paperwork required, and the RFE recieved after switching jobs... 6. Inability to switch jobs, if you have a Perm/Green Card application ongoing, as it will rest it (even for non-capped countries, it might take 2+ years for the whole process to go through) etc... etc.. You must be young and naive if you believe being on a H1B doesn't suppress one's salary, or potential. The current H1B system is in-tenured servitude, and a continuation of old Feudal System, by tying the ability to work for a class of workers to their employer. Yes, you can switch employers, but at great costs, and at risking eventual deportation (if you don't play the immigration game right, and get the Perm/Green Card in time).
    - Clubber 6y ago
      Not to be pedantic, but the term is indentured servitude, at least in regards to Europeans coming to North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      I can only speak to my own experiences. > 1. Not accepting a higher salary offer, but going with a more 'safe option' For me, the 'safe option' came with the highest salary. Usually the riskier bets come with lower up-front payoffs in my experience. > 2. Having to negotiate for asap Green Card application, vs. salary I've not had to do this. Most employers I've interviewed with were either (a) early stage and let me do whatever I wanted re: immigration -- even to the extent of saying you drive, and submit the bills or (b) later-stage companies that had fixed corporate policies re: when the green card process can begin and it's initiated by the manager. My most recent employer began the PERM process during our first 1:1 and the my recruiter was very curious why I was so interested in the process since it's totally mechanical from their perspective. This is a criticism of the green card process, not intrinsic to H-1Bs. > 3. Not being able to accept a promotion to a manager, as I had a ongoing Green Card application as engineer/ic, and that would jeopardize my green card application Indeed but that is not actually a function of your H-1, right, but rather a function of that fact you'd kicked off your green card process, a different process. With it's own insanities. > 4. Not being able to create, or join a very early startup Create, no. And that's a huge loss to America. What ever happened to Startup Parole anyways? Join, sure. If you really wanted, you could easily have talked your company into letting you handle the process and submitting the expense reports. All you need for an H-1 is an LCA and prevailing wage. LCA isn't hard, and prevailing wage is low, a common complaint of the H-1 program. For the bay area it's like 90K for a software engineer. > 5. Having high anxiety, for all the paperwork required, and the RFE recieved after switching jobs... Yep, that sucks for sure, and is totally fair. There are ways to mitigate this. You can apply for an H-1 transfer speculatively while at your old employer. Once successfully approved, you can make the hop. There's no obligation to go through with it if you later change your mind. I think this is one of the lesser known features of the H-1. > 6. Inability to switch jobs, if you have a Perm/Green Card application ongoing, as it will rest it (even for non-capped countries, it might take 2+ years for the whole process to go through) The inability to switch jobs isn't H-1 related, again, it's a function of the green card process which is, as I conceded earlier, very stupid. But also, transient. Once you hit 180 days in Adjustment of Status, AC21 portability kicks off and your employer can no longer withdraw your I-140. You can then move largely at will -- even to self-employment, for the few remaining weeks it takes your I-485 to be approved. [1] > Yes, you can switch employers, but at great costs, and at risking eventual deportation (if you don't play the immigration game right, and get the Perm/Green Card in time). Again, yes, but this also not intrinsic to the H-1 but rather to the green card process. With that in mind you're eligible to indefinitely extend your H-1 status as soon as you have an approved I-140 (which you can get in 14 days) in 1 or 3 year increments. [1] http://cilawgroup.com/news/2012/10/01/rules-governing-i-485-portability-to-a-new-employer-under-ac21/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwl4v4BRDaARIsAFjATPmCd9GZ8T8FmWE95oCvdWRw1CcR2R9_RiU8LXUUEqj1mHNavNy9V-UaAhm7EALw_wcB http://cilawgroup.com/news/2012/10/01/rules-governing-i-485-...
- xxpor 6y ago
  I agree with you generally, but I think you might just be a missing a piece of the puzzle. For folks from countries that don't have a large backlog, you can get a green card in something like 3 or 4 years today. But if you're from somewhere with a large backlog (e.g. India and China) you're looking at a decade+. So the real issue here is the green card quota levels, not so much the h1b itself.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    > For folks from countries that don't have a large backlog, you can get a green card in something like 3 or 4 years today. If you've got a motivated employer you can get it done in 18 months. - PERM takes 6-9 months to prepare. - PERM takes 120 days to certify currently. - I-140, I-485, I-765, I-131 and I-693 can be filed simultaneously for rest-of-world. - I-140 with premium processing takes 1-15 days (3-12 months without). - I-485 takes 8-14 months, but after 180 days you're AC21 portable.
    - sjs7007 6y ago
      I think you are missing the point that it's only a pain point for countries with a backlog, not ones without a backlog. 3-4 years in the grand scheme of things is not all that long for gaining PR of a different country.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Indeed this assumes your priority date is current, which it is for all EB2 excluding India and China, and many EB3s. [1] [1] https://www.uscis.gov/visabulletininfo https://www.uscis.gov/visabulletininfo
      - novok 6y ago
        On top of that, the pain is extra bad for people from India, where the queue wait is effectively infinite. While for Chinese people it's a relatively tractable 5 years last time I checked.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
- corporateslave5 6y ago
  As an American worker, I have been discriminated against on majority H1B teams at two separate companies. I have seen the same for other Americans.
  - greatwhitenorth 6y ago
    I'm an Indian. As a past H1B visa holder, I know that this happens. I've seen people being so biased that they only recruit people from the state they belong to in India. And, I've come across Americans in bay area who were so pissed off with this that they voted for Trump. The level of politics and discrimination I've seen would make anyone angry. There are highly skilled people working on H1B but they're a minority. If H1B allows only full time employment and no contract jobs, a lot of abuse will be eliminated. Edit: Why the downvotes? Truth hurts? This is a known secret throughout the valley.
- anticonformist 6y ago
  Reforming the H-1B to do what it was intended to do would mean eliminating 99% of the visas that are granted. It turns out that the entire H-1B program has been a massive scam. It was created and promoted by American Big Tech companies to make them money at the expense of American citizens. It's been a trillion dollar theft from lower and middle class Americans into the hands of the 1%. Without the H-1B in place, these companies would be working to fix America's education system, paying more in salary to workers, and lifting more Americans into the middle class. The program has been beneficial in many ways but the overall effect has been to use foreigners as a weapon against citizens. One of the most reprehensible aspects has been the propaganda by the Big Tech companies. They're pretending to care about America's melting pot and helping immigrants, but they're importing primarily the wealthiest immigrants. They're damaging America and other countries at the same time, all in the name of money.
  - sagarm 6y ago
    Those big tech companies already have international offices. Why wouldn't they have just expanded those offices? Investing in education etc is not really the job of companies in our capitalist system. They could not capture enough of the value to justify the cost, especially given the very long lead times.p
    - monoideism 6y ago
      > Those big tech companies already have international offices. Why wouldn't they have just expanded those offices? Because they still want to hire lots of Americans. They just don't want to pay them market prices. So they bring in H1-Bs to lower wages. If they hired them overseas, there wouldn't be that effect: From the article above: "Research by Daniel Costa, of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, and Howard University political science professor Ron Hira, found that 60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region. Google, Facebook and Apple “take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill,” Costa and Hira said in an Economic Policy Institute paper." I'd personally like to see the US adopt a systematic and generous immigration system like Canada's. But the H1-B system has mostly been a farce, used as a weapon against American workers. There are exceptions, but overall, it's most benefited the big tech company stockholders.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I don't think incremental reform can work here. As you say, the H-1B is by design a non-immigrant visa. If we want a "I'd like to immigrate to the US for software engineering" visa, we need to design one from scratch; anything jury-rigged on top of the H-1B process is going to be inequitable or unfair somehow.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    "Non-immigrant visa" simply means "getting it doesn't grant you immigrant status". In this way it's like a tourist or student visa. The H-1B is a dual-intent visa. This means "you may apply for it and show intent to immigrate, for example, by starting the PERM process". This is unlike a tourist or student visa, where there are grounds for denial if you show any intent to immigrate. There are a number of "I'd like to immigrate to the US" visas, primarily based around 3 categories - family, employment, or refugee status. The employment-based green card (which is what H-1B holders apply for) has quotas based upon the applicant's country of birth. An H-1B holder born anywhere other than India or China can get an employment-based green card in less than 3 years.
- akshat_h 6y ago
  H1-B has other issues but regarding H1-B working for 10+ years, it is mostly due to country caps for green cards. H1-B do get sponsored green cards, at least for the non-startup companies. IIRC, any H1-B having more than one extension i.e. > 6 years has to have a green card application pending. H1-B doesn't have country caps. The green card system however has per country caps, which impacts primarily people born in India, China, Mexico,El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Vietnam and Philippines. If you are born in Greece and come to USA on H1-B where a company sponsors green card for you, you would get it in around 1-3 years. Source: Was born in India and also had a roommate from Greece who got green card in about 14 months after being in USA. EDIT: Added El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Vietnam to list of countries impacted based on https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-bulletin/2020/visa-bulletin-for-june-2020.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v...
- dilyevsky 6y ago
  I got from h1b to gc in under 3 years but that was a while ago when caps weren’t being maxed out. Essentially your argument is to remove the caps which Im not sure most people would support (for rather selfish reasons)
jacobriis 6y ago
Looks like about 25% of software developers (broadly defined) are on H1B visas. 254k/365k of H1B petitions in 2017 were for computer occupations (those are predominantly in software development and computer programming). If we assume the proportion of actual workers is similar to petitions, we would assume there are about 400k H1B workers in software. About 1.5 million were employed in software development and computer programming 2018.
- woobar 6y ago
  Not sure why you only count two occupations from the BLS list [1] Total of all Computer and IT jobs in 2018 was 4+ millions. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
  - jacobriis 6y ago
    H1B petitions in computer occupations are predominantly in software development and computer programming. About 30% are for "computer systems analyst" or "computer occupations, other" but I don't really buy most of those petitions aren't actually for devs. All software developers on TN visas (NAFTA/USMCA visas) are officially "computer systems analysts" for example.
    - ma2rten 6y ago
      I believe that some (almost all?) are Software Engineers on TN visa are Engineers.
      - jacobriis 6y ago
        In an informational bulletin, USCIS also stated that “Engineers may not fill computer-related jobs under TN classification unless they have credentials as computer or software engineers from institutions that recognize computer or software engineering as bona fide engineering specialties offering full engineering credentials, such as professional engineering licenses.” USCIS Employment Bulletin: NAFTA (2005).
jypepin 6y ago
"estimate"? How can they not know exactly how many people have H1bs?
- Jach 6y ago
  FTA: Citizenship and Immigration said in its report that coming up with a number for H-1Bs living in the U.S. “is complex, as no electronic data system tracks or houses this information.” A scream emoji seems appropriate...
  - baggy_trough 6y ago
    You want the government to be more effective and efficient at tracking people?
    - jypepin 6y ago
      well if they claim the H1b program is abused, you bet I'd want them to have real data to report that
    - gruez 6y ago
      They already: * have access to your internet usage, search history, and phone records * track our location through cellphones * have surveillance cameras everywhere, in case you didn't bring your phone * track where your cars is through a vast network of ANPRs * fly drones/planes over cities doing aerial surveillance And you think that tracking the number of H1B visa holders is too much?
      - rtkwe 6y ago
        The roadblock as always is bringing all that info together. Few places have access to all that information and a way to synthesize it together.
  - jypepin 6y ago
    So when a H1b holder enters the US with their H1b, there is no way for the border official to know if it's real? That seems impossible to me.
russellbeattie 6y ago
The H-1B program definitely needs more regulation to prevent abuse by companies (especially when it comes to salary negotiations). But if anything we should increase the number - it's not like those people are just going to not work if they don't come to the U.S. They'll just work in different countries, either driving more offshoring of labor by American companies, or just competing with them directly. It's in the U.S.'s best interest as a whole to get as many of the best and the brightest in the world to work here, and then do everything we can to get them to stay. Currently, 48M+ people in the U.S. were born outside the U.S. and we welcome a larger total number (like 1.2M+) of immigrants per year than any other country in the world. By far - it's like double the closest country easily, year in and year out. Basically all of Western Europe combined. Might as well have a lot of them be PhDs and other highly skilled/educated people. Besides, half of Silicon Valley was started by immigrants or children of immigrants - maybe more. In my experience, third+ generation Americans tend to take what they have for granted. If you've worked your ass off and crossed the world to get to the U.S., you're the type of person we want here. It's been that way for literally generations. To quote Hamilton (which I just saw this weekend), "Immigrants. They get the job done."
- gok 6y ago
  Increase the count and also the minimum salary. It's bonkers that the $65k minimum from 1989 has never been updated, especially given which cities many H1B immigrants need to live.
  - derwiki 6y ago
    Tangential anecdata, but 65k was my starting salary at IBM in San Jose in 2007 as non-H-1B
  - dilyevsky 6y ago
    H1b min salary is adjusted based on locale. Mountain View , CA was ~90k around 2011 if I recall correctly
    - gok 6y ago
baby 6y ago
The H-1B system is terrible. I applied twice to it while I was on an internship visa, and ended up not getting through the lottery and had to leave the US. Then had to wait a year and a half to get a greencard in order to come back.
- ideals 6y ago
  Is it worth it? The more I read about this the more I question if it is actually worth the trouble. However I am a US citizen, something which in these conversations make me realize how lucky (privileged) I am to not endure this
  - ardit33 6y ago
    Of course.... for many it is, even though it is very abusive and a terrible system. Let's be honest, it is a modern interpretation of 19th century 'in-tenured servitude'. It is almost Feudal system by nature. It is very similar to workers having to 'pay their immigration' debts, while not directly, but by tying the visa to an employe, and making hard to move employers if you are going through the green card process (it can reset you green card process in many cases). Who knew, the feudal system if live and well, in the 21st century. If you don't like it, banishment/expulsion from the community. (aka, deportation) to where you come from. It is something that many put up, for a better life. If you are in the 'non capped' countries, usually it is few years to endure it until you get the green card, but for the caped countries, it can take decades to get the green card.
  - harpratap 6y ago
    For someone from countries like India - it is. Not so much for someone from countries like Germany or Japan I suppose.
- dilyevsky 6y ago
  Not as terrible as suggested alternative
- kyawzazaw 6y ago
  How were you able to get the greencard in that short time frame?
alexmingoia 6y ago
End the H1B and other work restrictions. Let Americans hire foreigners freely, without fees and paperwork, without arbitrary limits, without inhumane processes that take years. Make America free again.
- asdff 6y ago
  I wish borders and citizenship didn't really exist. Just pay taxes to your current locality. It should be as simple to travel, live, or work between any country and the U.S. as it is between any two U.S. states.
  - magicnubs 6y ago
    Make governments compete in a free market like companies. It's an interesting idea, and compelling on its face. But that leaves open the question of how a government could ever be expected to invest in it's people. The incentive for other countries would be to not invest as much in education of their own, since anyone could up and move to a country with lower taxes immediately once they finished school. Or they wouldn't invest in healthcare, since you could just "move" to a country that has healthcare, get treated, and then move back to your low-tax country immediately after. I expect we'd end up with a system pretty similar to the one we have now, with each country demanding a certain "investment" from the prospective citizen before they be granted the benefits of citizenship (e.g. certain number of years spent there) or that they are bringing something valuable to the table (e.g. in-demand skills or qualifications).
    - alexmingoia 6y ago
      I don’t want a government that invests in me, my education, my healthcare, my retirement, tells me what to do, steals my money and gives it to others, and changes the rules every year. I want a company that protects my life and property, at a fixed cost, on a contractual basis. There are many others like me, who see the purpose of government as protecting life and property, not as central planners ruling every aspect of their subjects’ lives.

102 points by hanging 6y ago

The H-1B program is terrible and needs to be reformed. It is supposed to temporarily shore up the supply of critically skilled workers that are in demand. While it does this, when the program was envisioned no one imagined H-1B visa holders working here for 10+ years. If only there were a word for the importation of minority labor and locking them into employment with their sponsor, effectively reducing their negotiating power for salary to zero... Not to mention by artificially suppressing H-1B salaries over time, it puts negative wage pressure on US workers in similar positions. I believe H-1B workers should be offered green cards if they are here for more than 2-3 years, so they can negotiate on equal footing with US citizens.

arcticbull 6y ago
> If only there were a word for the importation of minority labor and locking them into employment with their sponsor, effectively reducing their negotiating power for salary to zero... It really doesn't do that. To be fair, H-1Bs are supposed to be in-demand specialty workers, to meet the spirit of the program. That means they have, by definition, negotiating power. I've spent a lot of time in H-1 status and I have definitely negotiated my compensation -- with both current and prospective employers. This data is available for you to search, and it's all public record. You can find my salary in the database. [1] [1] https://h1bdata.info/ https://h1bdata.info/
- Lammy 6y ago
  It's fundamentally not a level playing field in "at-will" employment states where losing a job means finding a new one or leaving the country within <x> number of days.
- paulgb 6y ago
  I've also had several employers (from a startup to a FAANG) tell me that an H-1B transfer would be no problem. I haven't actually done it, but I don't feel as mobility-impared as people seem to believe I should.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    H-1B transfers are quick (14 days with premium processing), easy and you can file speculatively if you're looking at a couple of potential employers but are afraid it may not go through. Your current employer will not be notified and you do not need to move forward with the transfer if you change your mind.
- monoideism 6y ago
  Economists have researched that data, and consistently confirmed what the GP asserted: "Research by Daniel Costa, of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, and Howard University political science professor Ron Hira, found that 60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region. Google, Facebook and Apple “take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill,” Costa and Hira said in an Economic Policy Institute paper." (from the article above)
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    "60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region." As opposed to 50% of the normal workforce which receives lower-than-average wages by definition? Feels like that number, while significant, was framed to be sensational. I'm curious how much of this is attributable to: 1. Technical skill level. Are they new grads or junior folks? Is this skew happening because the senior folks roll off onto green cards? 2. Soft skill level. Are employers taking on folks with language skills or management skills or cultural skills that need to be leveled up? Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs?
    - monoideism 6y ago
      Actually, I think that number doesn't even really capture the problem. Because it doesn't indicate by how much those workers salary is lower than average. The studies I've seen on this suggest it's a significant gap. I'll see if I can find that study, and others. >Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs? I'd be very surprised if it didn't at least improve. But it still results in suppressed salaries for American workers. And isn't some weird conspiracy that tech CEOs believe salaries are far too high and want to suppress them: we have emails of them discussing exactly that (in another context not involving immigration) EDIT: I previously had some other suggestions, but I think the most beneficial and abuse-proof system for all involved would be to have the tech companies bid for visas (as many others have suggested). That should eliminate the potential for abuse.
- e9 6y ago
  Yes it does do that and worse. When I was on H1b years back in big co, most of my coworkers were on h1b as well and they were scared to death to leave because of comfort and self doubt. Some manager knew this and abused this power by pointing out that their green card application can be withdrawn any moment if they don’t work on weekends.
- ardit33 6y ago
  This is so wrong, it is comical. You have a lot less leverage, especially if you want/are in the process of getting a green card. As a former H1B holder (and currently on a Green Card), being on a H-1B has prevented me: 1. Not accepting a higher salary offer, but going with a more 'safe option' 2. Having to negotiate for asap Green Card application, vs. salary 3. Not being able to accept a promotion to a manager, as I had a ongoing Green Card application as engineer/ic, and that would jeopardize my green card application 4. Not being able to create, or join a very early startup 5. Having high anxiety, for all the paperwork required, and the RFE recieved after switching jobs... 6. Inability to switch jobs, if you have a Perm/Green Card application ongoing, as it will rest it (even for non-capped countries, it might take 2+ years for the whole process to go through) etc... etc.. You must be young and naive if you believe being on a H1B doesn't suppress one's salary, or potential. The current H1B system is in-tenured servitude, and a continuation of old Feudal System, by tying the ability to work for a class of workers to their employer. Yes, you can switch employers, but at great costs, and at risking eventual deportation (if you don't play the immigration game right, and get the Perm/Green Card in time).
  - Clubber 6y ago
    Not to be pedantic, but the term is indentured servitude, at least in regards to Europeans coming to North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    I can only speak to my own experiences. > 1. Not accepting a higher salary offer, but going with a more 'safe option' For me, the 'safe option' came with the highest salary. Usually the riskier bets come with lower up-front payoffs in my experience. > 2. Having to negotiate for asap Green Card application, vs. salary I've not had to do this. Most employers I've interviewed with were either (a) early stage and let me do whatever I wanted re: immigration -- even to the extent of saying you drive, and submit the bills or (b) later-stage companies that had fixed corporate policies re: when the green card process can begin and it's initiated by the manager. My most recent employer began the PERM process during our first 1:1 and the my recruiter was very curious why I was so interested in the process since it's totally mechanical from their perspective. This is a criticism of the green card process, not intrinsic to H-1Bs. > 3. Not being able to accept a promotion to a manager, as I had a ongoing Green Card application as engineer/ic, and that would jeopardize my green card application Indeed but that is not actually a function of your H-1, right, but rather a function of that fact you'd kicked off your green card process, a different process. With it's own insanities. > 4. Not being able to create, or join a very early startup Create, no. And that's a huge loss to America. What ever happened to Startup Parole anyways? Join, sure. If you really wanted, you could easily have talked your company into letting you handle the process and submitting the expense reports. All you need for an H-1 is an LCA and prevailing wage. LCA isn't hard, and prevailing wage is low, a common complaint of the H-1 program. For the bay area it's like 90K for a software engineer. > 5. Having high anxiety, for all the paperwork required, and the RFE recieved after switching jobs... Yep, that sucks for sure, and is totally fair. There are ways to mitigate this. You can apply for an H-1 transfer speculatively while at your old employer. Once successfully approved, you can make the hop. There's no obligation to go through with it if you later change your mind. I think this is one of the lesser known features of the H-1. > 6. Inability to switch jobs, if you have a Perm/Green Card application ongoing, as it will rest it (even for non-capped countries, it might take 2+ years for the whole process to go through) The inability to switch jobs isn't H-1 related, again, it's a function of the green card process which is, as I conceded earlier, very stupid. But also, transient. Once you hit 180 days in Adjustment of Status, AC21 portability kicks off and your employer can no longer withdraw your I-140. You can then move largely at will -- even to self-employment, for the few remaining weeks it takes your I-485 to be approved. [1] > Yes, you can switch employers, but at great costs, and at risking eventual deportation (if you don't play the immigration game right, and get the Perm/Green Card in time). Again, yes, but this also not intrinsic to the H-1 but rather to the green card process. With that in mind you're eligible to indefinitely extend your H-1 status as soon as you have an approved I-140 (which you can get in 14 days) in 1 or 3 year increments. [1] http://cilawgroup.com/news/2012/10/01/rules-governing-i-485-portability-to-a-new-employer-under-ac21/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwl4v4BRDaARIsAFjATPmCd9GZ8T8FmWE95oCvdWRw1CcR2R9_RiU8LXUUEqj1mHNavNy9V-UaAhm7EALw_wcB http://cilawgroup.com/news/2012/10/01/rules-governing-i-485-...
xxpor 6y ago
I agree with you generally, but I think you might just be a missing a piece of the puzzle. For folks from countries that don't have a large backlog, you can get a green card in something like 3 or 4 years today. But if you're from somewhere with a large backlog (e.g. India and China) you're looking at a decade+. So the real issue here is the green card quota levels, not so much the h1b itself.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  > For folks from countries that don't have a large backlog, you can get a green card in something like 3 or 4 years today. If you've got a motivated employer you can get it done in 18 months. - PERM takes 6-9 months to prepare. - PERM takes 120 days to certify currently. - I-140, I-485, I-765, I-131 and I-693 can be filed simultaneously for rest-of-world. - I-140 with premium processing takes 1-15 days (3-12 months without). - I-485 takes 8-14 months, but after 180 days you're AC21 portable.
  - sjs7007 6y ago
    I think you are missing the point that it's only a pain point for countries with a backlog, not ones without a backlog. 3-4 years in the grand scheme of things is not all that long for gaining PR of a different country.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Indeed this assumes your priority date is current, which it is for all EB2 excluding India and China, and many EB3s. [1] [1] https://www.uscis.gov/visabulletininfo https://www.uscis.gov/visabulletininfo
    - novok 6y ago
      On top of that, the pain is extra bad for people from India, where the queue wait is effectively infinite. While for Chinese people it's a relatively tractable 5 years last time I checked.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
corporateslave5 6y ago
As an American worker, I have been discriminated against on majority H1B teams at two separate companies. I have seen the same for other Americans.
- greatwhitenorth 6y ago
  I'm an Indian. As a past H1B visa holder, I know that this happens. I've seen people being so biased that they only recruit people from the state they belong to in India. And, I've come across Americans in bay area who were so pissed off with this that they voted for Trump. The level of politics and discrimination I've seen would make anyone angry. There are highly skilled people working on H1B but they're a minority. If H1B allows only full time employment and no contract jobs, a lot of abuse will be eliminated. Edit: Why the downvotes? Truth hurts? This is a known secret throughout the valley.
anticonformist 6y ago
Reforming the H-1B to do what it was intended to do would mean eliminating 99% of the visas that are granted. It turns out that the entire H-1B program has been a massive scam. It was created and promoted by American Big Tech companies to make them money at the expense of American citizens. It's been a trillion dollar theft from lower and middle class Americans into the hands of the 1%. Without the H-1B in place, these companies would be working to fix America's education system, paying more in salary to workers, and lifting more Americans into the middle class. The program has been beneficial in many ways but the overall effect has been to use foreigners as a weapon against citizens. One of the most reprehensible aspects has been the propaganda by the Big Tech companies. They're pretending to care about America's melting pot and helping immigrants, but they're importing primarily the wealthiest immigrants. They're damaging America and other countries at the same time, all in the name of money.
- sagarm 6y ago
  Those big tech companies already have international offices. Why wouldn't they have just expanded those offices? Investing in education etc is not really the job of companies in our capitalist system. They could not capture enough of the value to justify the cost, especially given the very long lead times.p
  - monoideism 6y ago
    > Those big tech companies already have international offices. Why wouldn't they have just expanded those offices? Because they still want to hire lots of Americans. They just don't want to pay them market prices. So they bring in H1-Bs to lower wages. If they hired them overseas, there wouldn't be that effect: From the article above: "Research by Daniel Costa, of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, and Howard University political science professor Ron Hira, found that 60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region. Google, Facebook and Apple “take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill,” Costa and Hira said in an Economic Policy Institute paper." I'd personally like to see the US adopt a systematic and generous immigration system like Canada's. But the H1-B system has mostly been a farce, used as a weapon against American workers. There are exceptions, but overall, it's most benefited the big tech company stockholders.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I don't think incremental reform can work here. As you say, the H-1B is by design a non-immigrant visa. If we want a "I'd like to immigrate to the US for software engineering" visa, we need to design one from scratch; anything jury-rigged on top of the H-1B process is going to be inequitable or unfair somehow.
- triceratops 6y ago
  "Non-immigrant visa" simply means "getting it doesn't grant you immigrant status". In this way it's like a tourist or student visa. The H-1B is a dual-intent visa. This means "you may apply for it and show intent to immigrate, for example, by starting the PERM process". This is unlike a tourist or student visa, where there are grounds for denial if you show any intent to immigrate. There are a number of "I'd like to immigrate to the US" visas, primarily based around 3 categories - family, employment, or refugee status. The employment-based green card (which is what H-1B holders apply for) has quotas based upon the applicant's country of birth. An H-1B holder born anywhere other than India or China can get an employment-based green card in less than 3 years.
akshat_h 6y ago
H1-B has other issues but regarding H1-B working for 10+ years, it is mostly due to country caps for green cards. H1-B do get sponsored green cards, at least for the non-startup companies. IIRC, any H1-B having more than one extension i.e. > 6 years has to have a green card application pending. H1-B doesn't have country caps. The green card system however has per country caps, which impacts primarily people born in India, China, Mexico,El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Vietnam and Philippines. If you are born in Greece and come to USA on H1-B where a company sponsors green card for you, you would get it in around 1-3 years. Source: Was born in India and also had a roommate from Greece who got green card in about 14 months after being in USA. EDIT: Added El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Vietnam to list of countries impacted based on https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-bulletin/2020/visa-bulletin-for-june-2020.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v...
dilyevsky 6y ago
I got from h1b to gc in under 3 years but that was a while ago when caps weren’t being maxed out. Essentially your argument is to remove the caps which Im not sure most people would support (for rather selfish reasons)

jacobriis 6y ago

Looks like about 25% of software developers (broadly defined) are on H1B visas. 254k/365k of H1B petitions in 2017 were for computer occupations (those are predominantly in software development and computer programming). If we assume the proportion of actual workers is similar to petitions, we would assume there are about 400k H1B workers in software. About 1.5 million were employed in software development and computer programming 2018.

woobar 6y ago
Not sure why you only count two occupations from the BLS list [1] Total of all Computer and IT jobs in 2018 was 4+ millions. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
- jacobriis 6y ago
  H1B petitions in computer occupations are predominantly in software development and computer programming. About 30% are for "computer systems analyst" or "computer occupations, other" but I don't really buy most of those petitions aren't actually for devs. All software developers on TN visas (NAFTA/USMCA visas) are officially "computer systems analysts" for example.
  - ma2rten 6y ago
    I believe that some (almost all?) are Software Engineers on TN visa are Engineers.
    - jacobriis 6y ago
      In an informational bulletin, USCIS also stated that “Engineers may not fill computer-related jobs under TN classification unless they have credentials as computer or software engineers from institutions that recognize computer or software engineering as bona fide engineering specialties offering full engineering credentials, such as professional engineering licenses.” USCIS Employment Bulletin: NAFTA (2005).

jypepin 6y ago

"estimate"? How can they not know exactly how many people have H1bs?

Jach 6y ago
FTA: Citizenship and Immigration said in its report that coming up with a number for H-1Bs living in the U.S. “is complex, as no electronic data system tracks or houses this information.” A scream emoji seems appropriate...
- baggy_trough 6y ago
  You want the government to be more effective and efficient at tracking people?
  - jypepin 6y ago
    well if they claim the H1b program is abused, you bet I'd want them to have real data to report that
  - gruez 6y ago
    They already: * have access to your internet usage, search history, and phone records * track our location through cellphones * have surveillance cameras everywhere, in case you didn't bring your phone * track where your cars is through a vast network of ANPRs * fly drones/planes over cities doing aerial surveillance And you think that tracking the number of H1B visa holders is too much?
    - rtkwe 6y ago
      The roadblock as always is bringing all that info together. Few places have access to all that information and a way to synthesize it together.
- jypepin 6y ago
  So when a H1b holder enters the US with their H1b, there is no way for the border official to know if it's real? That seems impossible to me.

russellbeattie 6y ago

The H-1B program definitely needs more regulation to prevent abuse by companies (especially when it comes to salary negotiations). But if anything we should increase the number - it's not like those people are just going to not work if they don't come to the U.S. They'll just work in different countries, either driving more offshoring of labor by American companies, or just competing with them directly. It's in the U.S.'s best interest as a whole to get as many of the best and the brightest in the world to work here, and then do everything we can to get them to stay. Currently, 48M+ people in the U.S. were born outside the U.S. and we welcome a larger total number (like 1.2M+) of immigrants per year than any other country in the world. By far - it's like double the closest country easily, year in and year out. Basically all of Western Europe combined. Might as well have a lot of them be PhDs and other highly skilled/educated people. Besides, half of Silicon Valley was started by immigrants or children of immigrants - maybe more. In my experience, third+ generation Americans tend to take what they have for granted. If you've worked your ass off and crossed the world to get to the U.S., you're the type of person we want here. It's been that way for literally generations. To quote Hamilton (which I just saw this weekend), "Immigrants. They get the job done."

gok 6y ago
Increase the count and also the minimum salary. It's bonkers that the $65k minimum from 1989 has never been updated, especially given which cities many H1B immigrants need to live.
- derwiki 6y ago
  Tangential anecdata, but 65k was my starting salary at IBM in San Jose in 2007 as non-H-1B
- dilyevsky 6y ago
  H1b min salary is adjusted based on locale. Mountain View , CA was ~90k around 2011 if I recall correctly
  - gok 6y ago

baby 6y ago

The H-1B system is terrible. I applied twice to it while I was on an internship visa, and ended up not getting through the lottery and had to leave the US. Then had to wait a year and a half to get a greencard in order to come back.

ideals 6y ago
Is it worth it? The more I read about this the more I question if it is actually worth the trouble. However I am a US citizen, something which in these conversations make me realize how lucky (privileged) I am to not endure this
- ardit33 6y ago
  Of course.... for many it is, even though it is very abusive and a terrible system. Let's be honest, it is a modern interpretation of 19th century 'in-tenured servitude'. It is almost Feudal system by nature. It is very similar to workers having to 'pay their immigration' debts, while not directly, but by tying the visa to an employe, and making hard to move employers if you are going through the green card process (it can reset you green card process in many cases). Who knew, the feudal system if live and well, in the 21st century. If you don't like it, banishment/expulsion from the community. (aka, deportation) to where you come from. It is something that many put up, for a better life. If you are in the 'non capped' countries, usually it is few years to endure it until you get the green card, but for the caped countries, it can take decades to get the green card.
- harpratap 6y ago
  For someone from countries like India - it is. Not so much for someone from countries like Germany or Japan I suppose.
dilyevsky 6y ago
Not as terrible as suggested alternative
kyawzazaw 6y ago
How were you able to get the greencard in that short time frame?

alexmingoia 6y ago

End the H1B and other work restrictions. Let Americans hire foreigners freely, without fees and paperwork, without arbitrary limits, without inhumane processes that take years. Make America free again.

asdff 6y ago
I wish borders and citizenship didn't really exist. Just pay taxes to your current locality. It should be as simple to travel, live, or work between any country and the U.S. as it is between any two U.S. states.
- magicnubs 6y ago
  Make governments compete in a free market like companies. It's an interesting idea, and compelling on its face. But that leaves open the question of how a government could ever be expected to invest in it's people. The incentive for other countries would be to not invest as much in education of their own, since anyone could up and move to a country with lower taxes immediately once they finished school. Or they wouldn't invest in healthcare, since you could just "move" to a country that has healthcare, get treated, and then move back to your low-tax country immediately after. I expect we'd end up with a system pretty similar to the one we have now, with each country demanding a certain "investment" from the prospective citizen before they be granted the benefits of citizenship (e.g. certain number of years spent there) or that they are bringing something valuable to the table (e.g. in-demand skills or qualifications).
  - alexmingoia 6y ago
    I don’t want a government that invests in me, my education, my healthcare, my retirement, tells me what to do, steals my money and gives it to others, and changes the rules every year. I want a company that protects my life and property, at a fixed cost, on a contractual basis. There are many others like me, who see the purpose of government as protecting life and property, not as central planners ruling every aspect of their subjects’ lives.