4 ms·

I've tried once explain to American software engineers why people from east Europe and, especially, ex-USSR countries, reacts so hard against black/whitelist re

I've tried once explain to American software engineers why people from east Europe and, especially, ex-USSR countries, reacts so hard against black/whitelist renaming in software: because it looks exactly as "back to USSR" for them (I'm from Russia myself but I try to reflect these knee-jerk reactions). Looks like no one in discussion understood what I want to say, and I was named non-tolerant and "bad" as result of this try. Please note, I didn't say anything against such changes, I've only try to explain, that people with ex-USSR/Warsaw block background could react against such changes, not because they are racists, but because it revive very painful memories in them. And, yes, as result I'm almost racist too.

blacklion 6y ago
BTW, post like this (but much longer, with namy examples, and, alas, in Russian, which is unfortunate, as target auddience must be English-speaking) was written by my friend in FaceBook. Post has been blocked in 6 hours for "hate speech", and I swear, it was all about ex-USSR traumas which are triggered by current trends from USA, and didn't contain any hate words or any judgement of these trends. It was like list: «USSR induce such trauma for many generations, this trauma is alive today, and it could triggered by this trend». It is very sad.
- ncr100 6y ago
  Best luck recovering from trauma, it distracts and life won’t stop while you heal, unfortunate. Thx for sharing the opinions and experience...saves me time having to go through it too.
  - blacklion 6y ago
    Thanks for kind words! It is generational trauma, unfortunately. I could work with it personally, but it is passed from parents to children, and several generations should pass. Current situation in Russia doesn't help, either, as it again more and more like as back to USSR...
allarm 6y ago
I really liked how you combined “knee-jerk reaction”, “oh no, they’re not racists, they just look like racists and behave like racists, but that’s just because they were deeply traumatized” and “I don’t have anything in common with those racists”. A really enjoyable attempt to seat on two seats. The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in their minds between the race and the name of the color. They’re not inherently racist so to speak, it’s a very American thing, that Americans tend to forget quite often. When I think of a blacklist I imagine a list colored black, not the people of color and all the history behind it. That’s exactly why I believe these renaming attempts to be astoundingly stupid, please don’t involve the Soviet trauma bs in that.
- watwut 6y ago
  > The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in their minds between the race and the name of the color. The first part is true, second part is not. The people from Eastern block are well aware of the races and do have opinions about which race is how, up to certain races being inferior. The blacklist as word is not associated with race. But they will make quick judgements about what the words and events and historical characters should mean for black or white Americans. That typically with zero knowledge of American history and race relations. You will also see people assuming native Americans history is what the movie "Winnetou" shows. For example, when there is conflict about things like Africans complaining about not getting proper scientific attribution, you can count on eastern European people assuming African is crazy and don't deserve that.
  - allarm 6y ago
    Well, I’m not saying that they’re not aware of the races per se. I’m saying that “black” for them means the name of the color, again, not the racial reference. That’s why renaming blacklist/whitelist things is a very american-centric thing, which looks ridiculous to the most of the world outside Americas.
watwut 6y ago
When communism fell, streets were renamed, buildings were renamed, statues were taken down or moved. That keept happening for years. I am from Eastern block too. There is also this very common idea that since this word is purely technical to me, like slave, it must be purely technical to Americans too. I have seen Eastern Europeans who never travelled argue with American over interpretation of n-word. Or that since out history had racial issues of completely different kind, American history and reactions to it must be like that too. Yet another issue is that history communists taught was extremely good vs bad ... and we culturally have sometimes even worst shocked reaction to "Columbus might have been excessively cruel" then white Americans themselves.
- blacklion 6y ago
  > There is also this very common idea that since this word is purely technical to me, like slave, it must be purely technical to Americans too. Yep, it is a problem, you are right, I've thought (and speak) about this too.
daveslash 6y ago
Honest question, not a criticism: What do you mean by "black/whitelist renaming"? I know what it means to black or whitelist something based on it's name [IP address, domain, whatever], but I'm not sure what it means to "blacklist rename" something -- it's the "renaming" part that throws me off.
- etrabroline 6y ago
  Here you go! https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/6/twitter-google-want-eliminate-blacklist-and-black-/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/6/twitter-goog...

blacklion 6y ago

BTW, post like this (but much longer, with namy examples, and, alas, in Russian, which is unfortunate, as target auddience must be English-speaking) was written by my friend in FaceBook. Post has been blocked in 6 hours for "hate speech", and I swear, it was all about ex-USSR traumas which are triggered by current trends from USA, and didn't contain any hate words or any judgement of these trends. It was like list: «USSR induce such trauma for many generations, this trauma is alive today, and it could triggered by this trend». It is very sad.

ncr100 6y ago
Best luck recovering from trauma, it distracts and life won’t stop while you heal, unfortunate. Thx for sharing the opinions and experience...saves me time having to go through it too.
- blacklion 6y ago
  Thanks for kind words! It is generational trauma, unfortunately. I could work with it personally, but it is passed from parents to children, and several generations should pass. Current situation in Russia doesn't help, either, as it again more and more like as back to USSR...

allarm 6y ago

I really liked how you combined “knee-jerk reaction”, “oh no, they’re not racists, they just look like racists and behave like racists, but that’s just because they were deeply traumatized” and “I don’t have anything in common with those racists”. A really enjoyable attempt to seat on two seats. The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in their minds between the race and the name of the color. They’re not inherently racist so to speak, it’s a very American thing, that Americans tend to forget quite often. When I think of a blacklist I imagine a list colored black, not the people of color and all the history behind it. That’s exactly why I believe these renaming attempts to be astoundingly stupid, please don’t involve the Soviet trauma bs in that.

watwut 6y ago
> The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in their minds between the race and the name of the color. The first part is true, second part is not. The people from Eastern block are well aware of the races and do have opinions about which race is how, up to certain races being inferior. The blacklist as word is not associated with race. But they will make quick judgements about what the words and events and historical characters should mean for black or white Americans. That typically with zero knowledge of American history and race relations. You will also see people assuming native Americans history is what the movie "Winnetou" shows. For example, when there is conflict about things like Africans complaining about not getting proper scientific attribution, you can count on eastern European people assuming African is crazy and don't deserve that.
- allarm 6y ago
  Well, I’m not saying that they’re not aware of the races per se. I’m saying that “black” for them means the name of the color, again, not the racial reference. That’s why renaming blacklist/whitelist things is a very american-centric thing, which looks ridiculous to the most of the world outside Americas.

watwut 6y ago

When communism fell, streets were renamed, buildings were renamed, statues were taken down or moved. That keept happening for years. I am from Eastern block too. There is also this very common idea that since this word is purely technical to me, like slave, it must be purely technical to Americans too. I have seen Eastern Europeans who never travelled argue with American over interpretation of n-word. Or that since out history had racial issues of completely different kind, American history and reactions to it must be like that too. Yet another issue is that history communists taught was extremely good vs bad ... and we culturally have sometimes even worst shocked reaction to "Columbus might have been excessively cruel" then white Americans themselves.

blacklion 6y ago
> There is also this very common idea that since this word is purely technical to me, like slave, it must be purely technical to Americans too. Yep, it is a problem, you are right, I've thought (and speak) about this too.

daveslash 6y ago

Honest question, not a criticism: What do you mean by "black/whitelist renaming"? I know what it means to black or whitelist something based on it's name [IP address, domain, whatever], but I'm not sure what it means to "blacklist rename" something -- it's the "renaming" part that throws me off.

etrabroline 6y ago
Here you go! https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/6/twitter-google-want-eliminate-blacklist-and-black-/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/6/twitter-goog...