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A 1950s proposal to nuke Alaska (2015)
- paulcole 6y agoThink of all the insanely stupid decisions that were actually made in the 1950’s. Things probably wouldn’t be that much different today if they went through with this one.
- grecy 6y agoThe Russians were keen to use Nukes for "construction" too, and actually went ahead with "building" a lake [1] This [2] Document goes into all the details of what else they wanted to do. I think it would be a great idea to use nukes for construction, if only it wasn't for all that pesky radiation. I can only imagine how often we'd be using them for mining and what-not. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Chagan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Chagan [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20161223024850/http://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/238468.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20161223024850/http://e-reports-...
- sudosysgen 6y agoMaybe if pure-fusion weapons become a thing it could be reality.
- catalogia 6y agoI don't think so. Nuclear fusion releases tons of neutron radiation; neutron radiation induces radioactivity in things it hits. It's a common misconception that a fusion power plant wouldn't create radioactive waste; in truth the neutron radiation would turn the reactor itself into radioactive waste. One of the hard engineering problems of fusion power is creating a reactor that can be serviced using robotics since it would be too dangerous for humans technicians. If you used a pure fusion bomb to dig out a harbor, much of the the rock and soil the bomb threw into the air would be radioactive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_activation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_activation
- garmaine 6y agoNote that there are some fusion designs that do not result in radioactive waste. They're not the easiest to build though, so are unlikely to be what we use for first or second generation plants. For example, neutrons hitting lithium shielding produce tritium and helium, which can be fed back into the fusion reaction as fuel.
- sudosysgen 6y agoOf course. However neutron activation of soil is generally much smaller compared to radioactive fallout. Indeed, even fallout of nuclear weapons of the scale required for engineering project is overstated. Hiroshima, despite receiving much more fallout that a pure-fusion weapon of the same yield, became habitable quite rapidly thereafter. Another possible design could be to encase the pure fusion weapon in water, absorbing most of the neutrons and turning them into pressure and heat.
- krasin 6y agoThank you for giving the link. Never knew about Lake Chagan, and it was very interesting to dive into stories about it. Apparently, they intended to use such nuclear explosions across the whole country, but they learned quickly. What's even more interesting, they had a bio lab that would add new aquatic species into the atomic lake (as Lake Chagan is known to locals) and see what happens. Most of them died, some of them had mutated across several generations, including "positive" mutations, like increased size. Source (in Russian): https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82_%C2%AB%D0%A7%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%C2%BB#%D0%91%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%8B https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA...
- bawolff 6y agoPeople did similar things with land plants https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening
- catalogia 6y agoLake Chagan: 400 m (1,300 ft) across and 100 m (330 ft) deep Sedan Crater: 390 m (1,280 ft) across an 98 m (320 ft) deep I was under the impression the Sedan Crater was the largest manmade crater, but Lake Chagan seems to win by a hair. I'm surprised I never heard of Lake Chagan before.
- xkcd-sucks 6y agoTo what degree is mining limited by explosive power?
- donw 6y agotl;dr: In the 1950s, scientists and engineers had yet to understand the long-term effects of radiation, and looked at nuclear weapons as just super-powerful conventional explosives. Thus, Project Plowshare, in which we investigated using nukes to create harbors, dig mines, etc. Let this serve as a reminder to exercise a degree of caution with any revolutionarily new technology, lest you look a catastrophic moron in the eyes of history. :)
- dmckeon 6y agoSome of those investigations were more than theoretical, as the Jicarilla Apache well know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gasbuggy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gasbuggy
- acidburnNSA 6y agoAh there it is. If someone hadn't linked to the fracking-with-nuclear-weapons project I was going to post it. Fun pic of it here: https://twitter.com/whatisnuclear/status/1107498549074264065/photo/1 https://twitter.com/whatisnuclear/status/1107498549074264065... Source: This 370-page book called Plowshare; a selected, annotated bibliography of the civil, industrial, and scientific uses for nuclear explosions, compiled by Robert G. West [and] Robert C. Kelly. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015095076132&view=1up&seq=1 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015095076132&vi...
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago> In the 1950s, scientists and engineers had yet to understand the long-term effects of radiation Marie Curie died in 1934. And there was that little experiment in Japan in 1945 that was 13 years old by the time this Alaska thing was being discussed And Operation Plowshare didn’t end until the 1970s. I think everyone knew very well about radiation risks in the 1950s.
- bawolff 6y agoI think also in the modern context we overstate the danger of nuclear fallout from nuclear bombs because we think of plant meltdowns like Chernobyl and not actual nuclear bombs (which to be very clear, nukes are still terrifying)
- teh_klev 6y agoIn the early 50's there was a proposal to detonate a nuclear device in the north of Scotland at Duncansby Head just a few miles from Wick and Thurso. Despite this only being recently reported it was well known within the Scottish Anti-nuclear movement for many years. Fortunately a combination of technical issues and coming-to-their-senses put paid to that idea. However we did end up having to accommodate the Dounreay nuclear facility located about 20 or so miles west. That site has had a well documented chequered history including the wholesale ruining of local beaches due to radioactive particle contamination. https://www.sundaypost.com/news/experts-nearly-dropped-atomic-bomb-scottish-landmark-1950s/ https://www.sundaypost.com/news/experts-nearly-dropped-atomi...
- chris1993 6y agoThey elected to bomb bits of Australia instead because nobody of any importance lived there.
- lostlogin 6y agoAnd various pacific islands - locals and relative locals complaining led to the infamous bombing The Rainbow Warrior by the French when it was docked in Auckland, New Zealand in 1985. With allies like that, who needs enemies? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warri...
- acqq 6y agoThanks! The highlights: It was about the location of Britain's nuclear bomb tests, considered by those at "Aldermaston, the secretive headquarters of the UK’s nuclear weapons programme." "Incredibly, the iconic landmarks were only saved because scientist decreed the area was “too wet” to set off the explosion." "The bomb test was eventually carried out in late 1953 at Emu Field, a desert area in South Australia."
- marcinzm 6y agoI wonder what modern day ideas are considered utter insanity in 70 years.
- austincheney 6y agoGiving your personal data away for free to social media for public exhibition and to be monetized as a weapon against you.
- paulcole 6y agoNot even going to be in the top 50.
- Shared404 6y agoAlthough you may be right, something like [1] showing election manipulation very well could end up in the top 10, I would think. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Ana... edit: Change tone to be less snarky/combative. It was unintentional if I came across as rude.
- paulie_a 6y agoWhich had zero long term implications. Some minor and now totally forgotten short term repurcussions. The policy could be updated "we will sell the creepiest of the creepiest data on you and your friends. Hell your friends don't even need to sign up." And it would hardly change usage patterns. Cambridge was a tiny distraction of the week that had no lasting effects.
- gvjddbnvdrbv 6y agoBrexit??? It's going to have massive effects for a long time.
- kortilla 6y ago
- userbinator 6y agoThey also had plans to nuke the moon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_A119 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_A119
- HenryKissinger 6y agoWhen I was in high school, I had to read a novel called "The Ice People". In it, the Moon's current appearance was explained as the result of an old nuclear war between two human factions on the satellite body.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y agoThis? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ice_People_(Barjavel_novel) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ice_People_(Barjavel_nov...
- HenryKissinger 6y agoYep!
- mtraven 6y agoAnd to nuke the Van Allen belts -- that one actually went forward: https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2010/07/01/128170775/a-very-scary-light-show-exploding-h-bombs-in-space?ft=1&f=1001 https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2010/07/01/128170775/a...
- winrid 6y agoVery cool, thanks for sharing.
- sjackso 6y agoFor a more in-depth look at Project Chariot and the general strangeness that surrounded it, find yourself a copy of The Firecracker Boys: https://www.amazon.com/Firecracker-Boys-Dan-ONeill/dp/0465003486 https://www.amazon.com/Firecracker-Boys-Dan-ONeill/dp/046500...
- rmason 6y agoAs I have detailed here before as a schoolchild in Detroit our class visited the Enrico Fermi nuclear power plant. In a movie that we saw at the plant in the early sixties they envisioned nuclear powered automobiles. Ford even created a concept car called the Nucleon as a demonstration of what a nuclear powered car would look like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon
- bawolff 6y agoI remember reading the foundation trilogy, and they used the word nuclear the way that modern sf uses the word quantum. Need a watch you don't need to wind, its nuclear! Need a shield generator for your space ship? Nuclear!
- mellosouls 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Bus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Bus Movie about a nuclear powered bus.
- catalogia 6y agoIn the 50s Chrysler's tank division proposed a truly bizarre nuclear powered tank: http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/strange_vehicles/chrysler_tv-8_nuclear_powered_tank.html http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/strange_vehicles/chry...
- acidburnNSA 6y agoThe Nucleon was a gag. Nobody serious thought there would be nuclear-powered cars even in the 1950s. There are even intros to textbooks that dismiss the idea as "not within the bounds of reality", as Glasstone did in 1956 [1] [1] https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015003994194&view=1up&seq=19 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015003994194&vi... Of course today there are literal nuclear-powered cars all over the place. They're electric cars charged by nearby nuclear power stations. But I guess that's semantics.
- rmason 6y agoNo based on what I saw at the time it was taken seriously. Some of these guys were dreamers in the nuclear industry. They made a push and it flopped. All I know as a 10 year old boy when I asked about what would happen in an auto accident to the cars reactor they didn't have a very good answer.
- chaosphere2112 6y agoMy old gig was at Lawerence Livermore (home of Edward teller); there’s a photo of the sedan test with a few lab engineers posed next to it in the building that they interview new comp sci hires in. One of the senior engineers I was on an interview panel with told me all about Plowshare; weird to hear it from someone who wasn’t on the project.
- mathattack 6y ago“A-blasts will mine ore now inaccessible, and recover oil locked in shale. Subterranean atomic bombs will drive electric power plants. Underground reservoirs dug with nuclear bombs will make deserts bloom. And the atom’s might power will make child’s play of colossal earth-moving feats, to dig harbors, dredge channels, and build great canals.” This reminds me of the AI/ML hype.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- acidburnNSA 6y agoSeems like a misinterpretation on the electric power part. Very few power plant designs use atomic power resources explosively to make electricity. They probably just meant undergrounded regular old fission nuclear power plants, which Teller also liked. But maybe not; that's a pretty direct statement. Certainly there were ideas to blow weapons up and then recover energy from the heated walls (often some kind of high heat capacity liquid).
- Someone 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_PACER https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_PACER: “The earliest references to the use of nuclear explosions for power generation date to a meeting called by Edward Teller in 1957. Among the many topics covered, the group considered power generation by exploding 1 Mt bombs in a 1,000-foot (300 m) diameter steam-filled cavity dug in granite. […] A series of 50-kiloton bombs would be dropped into the cavern and exploded to heat the water and create steam. The steam would then power a secondary cooling loop for power extraction using a steam turbine. Dropping about two bombs a day would cause the system to reach thermal equilibrium, allowing the continual extraction of about 2 GW of electrical power” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gnome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gnome: “Unlike most nuclear tests, which were focused on weapon development, Shot Gnome was designed to focus on scientific experiments: - "Study the possibility of converting the heat produced by a nuclear explosion into steam for the production of electric power."“
- chriswarbo 6y ago
- howlin 6y agoThe 1950's were an interesting time for grand "mad science" engineering projects. Anyone in the Bay area should make an effort to see the Bay Model museum in Sausalito. It contains a huge model of the SF Bay and the local watershed. While this is interesting, it is more interesting to hear the story of why it was made. It was intended to vet a plan to dam the bay to turn it from salt water to a huge freshwater lake. Fortunately they decided it wasn't feasible.
- Gibbon1 6y agoArmy Core of Engineers had a grand plan to fill most of the bay and build housing on it. People put their foot down and it didn't happen.
- mehrdadn 6y agoIt wasn't just people disliking it, it was actually a terrible plan AFAIK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i70wkxmumAw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i70wkxmumAw
- Gravityloss 6y agoAwesome that they went through the trouble of building the models and doing the tests. Resources well spent!
- anonAndOn 6y agoSort of. The CoE + developers wanted to fill in the remaining 2/3 since 1/3 was already being used as trash dumps. [0] And now, large chunks of bay cities are built on top of the former dumps. It's one of the reasons why there are dozens of ships buried under the SF Financial District. [1] [0]https://blog.savesfbay.org/2013/04/trash-dumps-and-the-hidden-history-of-the-bay-shoreline/ https://blog.savesfbay.org/2013/04/trash-dumps-and-the-hidde... [1]https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-americas/ghost-ships-san-francisco-dozens-wrecks-buried-beneath-city-streets-007548 https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-americas/ghos...
- lostlogin 6y ago
- catalogia 6y agoAlaska was in fact nuked three times; from 1965 to 1971 three underground tests were conducted on Amchitka in the Aleutian Islands, including the largest underground detonation ever conducted by the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amchitka#Nuclear_testing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amchitka#Nuclear_testing
- nimbius 6y agoStraight out of the fallout universe
- Melting_Harps 6y ago> “A-blasts will mine ore now inaccessible, and recover oil locked in shale. Subterranean atomic bombs will drive electric power plants. Underground reservoirs dug with nuclear bombs will make deserts bloom. And the atom’s might power will make child’s play of colossal earth-moving feats, to dig harbors, dredge channels, and build great canals.” How exactly is the State not evil? There are/were Aboriginal/Indigenous [1] people there for millennia and they knew that, then again that didn't stop them from destroying the lives of the People of the Marshall Islands [2], either with this headlong pursuit to use this technology if given the chance. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Natives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Natives 2: https://www.latimes.com/projects/marshall-islands-nuclear-testing-sea-level-rise/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/marshall-islands-nuclear-te...
- Gibbon1 6y agoWell to the credit of the US and USSR they did get stopped eventually. Total madness while it lasted though.
- aSplash0fDerp 6y agoThe 1950's were beyond the Wild West for atomic research (no rules to speak of). While on the other side of the US at the same time, they were leaving time capsules (which may explain global or atmospheric changes over the decades). Its strange hearing it in their own words. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVz8iCkdsSo&t=52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVz8iCkdsSo&t=52
- cycomanic 6y agoEdward Teller is an interesting person to read up on. I'm not surprised he was leading this. He seemed to have been extremely unscrupulous and obsessed with everything nuclear. Dr strangelove was loosely based on him. The way he treated Oppenheimer and some others is quite telling.
- habosa 6y agoMy wife’s grandmother worked for him for a long time and wrote his memoirs if anyone wants to read about him: https://g.co/kgs/KpuXzs https://g.co/kgs/KpuXzs
- panta 6y agoThat the current hedonist lifestyle based on consumerism is sustainable in the long term.
- moneytide1 6y agoI wonder if thermonuclear would be a cheap method to break up valuable asteroids into safer sized chunks to be routed into an orbit around Earth where they could be further processed or even decelerated before being crashed into remote areas where they could be conventionally mined. Dust from such an event could be a regional issue, perhaps shallow water body landing instead?
- moneytide1 6y agoNot radiated material because mostly fusion explosion with a small fission spark so if you really wanted a clean "catch" you would just leave out the area where the charge was placed.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Not radiated material because mostly fusion explosion Neutron flux is radiation, so things exposed to it are (ir)radiated. It also induces radioactivity, which is probably the actual concern with (ir)radiated material. OTOH, the actual reaction products themselves aren't radioactive, unlike fission reactions.
- moneytide1 6y agoThe surface of the chunk of rock facing such a radioactive blast could be shaved off before it somehow has its trajectory changed towards where heavier processing equipment is orbiting. Such a "harbor" would have to "speed up" to match this incoming new orbital body of rock, with supply launches necessary along this planned path (pre fired before new heavy tonnage arrives). Fuel shipments necessary to slow the entire rock shipment (constant thruster firing for days or weeks, affixed to the surface of the decontaminated asteroid slice). How far does radiation penetrate through rock? Some YouTube video virtually demonstrated using regolith as automated 3D printed habitat above ground structure protection from radiation in a place with no ionosphere.
- rurban 6y ago"While ultimately nuclear weapons were never used for construction projects" That's arguably untrue. Nuclear bombs were secretly placed under several high profile US skyscrapers for eventual demolition. Chicago Sears Tower, World Trade Towers 1 + 2 and such. Times were different then.
- habosa 6y agoDo you have a source for that?
- veddox 6y agoWhat? Do you have any source for that?
- rurban 6y agoI said secretly, so the sources are of course hidden. They will never show you the cellar blueprints, and will never confirm why they demolished the three WTC towers this way. But it started with Sears, and worked for WTC. Question is if they would demand it for future such skyscrapers, as they saw the radiation problems with the WTC. Could not touch it for 10 years. A more conventional destruction would be better nowadays, but those were the days in the construction business.