10 ms·

Am I the only one who uses piracy to explore new technologies? For example, I pirated ZBrush and spent about a month learning it. At that point I felt I had inv

Am I the only one who uses piracy to explore new technologies? For example, I pirated ZBrush and spent about a month learning it. At that point I felt I had invested enough time / gained enough skills to justify buying a full license, if I ever need to do more 3D modeling. I had the same experience with Visual Studio back in the day (aka Visual C++ 6.0; fond memories...), and of course photoshop. It’s a stupid game, but quite a personal growth vector.

tomc1985 6y ago
This is why a lot of software houses don't come down too hard on individual pirates -- they often become your fans and they might result in business in the future. It's like selling concerts and merch as a musician. Since software dev isn't the domain of lifelong nerds anymore I don't think most folk are as understanding or knowledgeable about the positives of piracy (or related issues around software freedom or the economic properties of digital data), hence your unfortunate downvotes. It's a shame... there are many of us who would not be where we are today, as productive, value-creating citizens, without having learned our trade with pirated software.
- sillysaurusx 6y ago
  Exactly. I remember begging my mom for Visual C++ 6.0 from eBay for $60 whole dollars when I was like 12, because I had heard that’s what real gamedevs use, and I was determined to become a real gamedev. It’s weird... you can trace that moment to present, and her saying “yes” or “no” would have dramatically changed my economic outcome. Piracy is a wonderful equalizer in that regard. Companies have every right to come down on piracy, but it often works against you if your software is a tool.
  - asciident 6y ago
    What did she say? Don't leave us hanging...
    - sillysaurusx 6y ago
      She said yes :) I owe a lot to that decision. It's also helped me understand what "privilege" is – many, many parents would have been like "no, now go do your homework." (I wasn't a very good student.) But, for example, Visual Studio 2003 Architect Edition was so expensive that I think it was a few thousand dollars at the time. Piracy enabled me to learn that, too. And surprise surprise, when I got into the gamedev industry, that was what they used. From Microsoft's standpoint, it was nothing but benefit: in addition to adding +1 productive programmer to the world, the piracy also caused me to become something of a Microsoft evangelist, similar to Carmack. It helped me appreciate a good IDE back before Webstorm made it a reality for Javascript. Of course, that eventually led to discovering Emacs (or rather being forced to learn it due to a twist of fortune) and then evolving into my bearded open-source devil form... Now if only there were an Emacs equivalent for 3D modeling and music, I'd be happy as a clam. Blender is great, but it just can't compete with ZBrush. EDIT: By the way, I was delighted to discover that Photopea (https://www.photopea.com/ https://www.photopea.com/) is a completely free, browser-based alternative to Photoshop. It has almost an identical UI, and it does 100% of what I need out of photoshop. We've been paying the $35/mo creative suite license, but I imagine lots of people still pirate it.
      - jackson1442 6y ago
        If you're wanting desktop software, Affinity[0] sells one-time-purchase licenses for their Photo, Designer, and Publisher software. I've never used Photoshop/Illustrator and generally do rather light work when I do need to edit/design, but I've been very happy with my purchase. Each license is $50, and the recently went on sale for $25 (but that's over now). [0]: https://affinity.serif.com https://affinity.serif.com
        culturestate 6y ago
        I can't speak for the Photoshop -> Photo transition since that's never really been my thing, but if you've been using CS professionally for any length of time then going from Illustrator + InDesign to Designer + Publisher take some significant muscle memory retraining. I've been gradually switching over for the last ~6 months but I still have to reach for Ai or Id if there's a really time-sensitive task. The amount of subconscious automation that goes into making you really proficient at using some tool becomes very obvious when you try to use a different one.
- the_af 6y ago
  > [...] there are many of us who would not be where we are today, as productive, value-creating citizens, without having learned our trade with pirated software. Agreed. I learned to program with GW-BASIC which if I remember correctly was included in a (pirated) copy of MS-DOS. Then I graduated to pirated Turbo C and Borland C++, and (I think) only then to the genuinely free DJGPP (a port of GCC for DOS). If it weren't for pirated software, I wouldn't be a programmer today.
- chaos_a 6y ago
  This is why free student packs are super valuable. Students typically have little to no money and can't afford to buy expensive software. So the company gives you a temporary free copy so that once you have a job in the field your learning you can afford actually afford to buy it.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  >It's a shame... there are many of us who would not be where we are today, as productive, value-creating citizens, without having learned our trade with pirated software. I imagine Adobe has managed to keep a lot of mindshare for Photoshop simply by how widely it is pirated. If pirating Photoshop was absolutely impossible, there'd probably be a lot more Gimp users in this world.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
Piracy is still piracy, regardless of your personal feelings about the value of your own use case. You’re taking something that is not yours for taking.
- kaibee 6y ago
  This analogy really doesn't work, because taking something deprives someone of something they would've otherwise had. If you have the means to buy a piece of software and pirate instead to save money, then sure, I think you can make a case that it is 'taking'. When you're pirating something that you would've never been able to buy, who are you depriving of anything? I guess you're depriving those who have the means to buy that software of the exclusivity of their position, but is that something that they get to 'own'?
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    depriving those who have the means to buy that software of the exclusivity of their position I'm gradually realizing that this probably plays a larger effect in society than we think. Like the ancient parable of the prodigal son, whose faithful brother was jealous that the rebel was celebrated in the end. Maybe it also plays out in lifelong CS devotees vs. CS-for- the-money people -- the nerds might feel that they have "earned" CS more, and the dayjob folks might not appreciate the depth of understanding that comes from the dedication of the lifelong devotees?
- Groxx 6y ago
  At a moral absolutist standpoint: yea, absolutely. Whether it's harmful or not, the intent is still to avoid paying for what you got, which is pretty straightforward. For almost any other positions: it's murkier. If you take a berry off a bush on public property... what's the morality? Or growing from private property overhanging public that's just dropping fruit and the owners are either not present or clearly allowing fruit to drop? It's theirs, they absolutely could harvest it, but they're not and it's clearly implied that is not going to change. Now what? Yes that's still further towards harmless than you can likely argue software piracy is (... ignoring the network effects of everyone knowing how to use X because everyone pirated it, or I could probably come up with others), but my point is that strict black and white separations have dividing lines and breaking points. Whether there is black or white somewhere isn't really useful to anyone, it's where you draw the line.
fearface 6y ago
ZBrush is $40/month. Makes me sad you can’t afford that.
- zucker42 6y ago
  $500/year is a nontrivial amount of money anywhere, but especially in many countries outside the U.S.
  - ajzinsbwbs 6y ago
    In this thread though we are talking about someone’s experience using piracy to spend a month learning something. $40 seems like a reasonable alternative to that.
- sillysaurusx 6y ago
  Oh, thank goodness! You're right, it's $40/mo now for ZBrush 2020. ZBrush 3 and earlier was $895 with no monthly option, which is great for CAD professionals but out of reach of hobbyists. I'm glad they have an option now; thanks for pointing this out. (I'm surprised you're getting beat up for this sentiment. $40 is definitely below the threshold of "purchase on a whim and try to learn it for a month." FL Studio was another great one at $99. Still, I'm sympathetic to people who simply can't afford it – children especially.)
- tpush 6y ago
  40 bucks a month is a huge amount of money for most of the world's population.
rorykoehler 6y ago
That's one of the benefits of the subscription model that gets a lot of hate on here. You can try things easily without pirating and exposing yourself to malware.
pjmlp 6y ago
As developer myself, I rather use demo versions when available.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

tomc1985 6y ago

This is why a lot of software houses don't come down too hard on individual pirates -- they often become your fans and they might result in business in the future. It's like selling concerts and merch as a musician. Since software dev isn't the domain of lifelong nerds anymore I don't think most folk are as understanding or knowledgeable about the positives of piracy (or related issues around software freedom or the economic properties of digital data), hence your unfortunate downvotes. It's a shame... there are many of us who would not be where we are today, as productive, value-creating citizens, without having learned our trade with pirated software.

sillysaurusx 6y ago
Exactly. I remember begging my mom for Visual C++ 6.0 from eBay for $60 whole dollars when I was like 12, because I had heard that’s what real gamedevs use, and I was determined to become a real gamedev. It’s weird... you can trace that moment to present, and her saying “yes” or “no” would have dramatically changed my economic outcome. Piracy is a wonderful equalizer in that regard. Companies have every right to come down on piracy, but it often works against you if your software is a tool.
- asciident 6y ago
  What did she say? Don't leave us hanging...
  - sillysaurusx 6y ago
    She said yes :) I owe a lot to that decision. It's also helped me understand what "privilege" is – many, many parents would have been like "no, now go do your homework." (I wasn't a very good student.) But, for example, Visual Studio 2003 Architect Edition was so expensive that I think it was a few thousand dollars at the time. Piracy enabled me to learn that, too. And surprise surprise, when I got into the gamedev industry, that was what they used. From Microsoft's standpoint, it was nothing but benefit: in addition to adding +1 productive programmer to the world, the piracy also caused me to become something of a Microsoft evangelist, similar to Carmack. It helped me appreciate a good IDE back before Webstorm made it a reality for Javascript. Of course, that eventually led to discovering Emacs (or rather being forced to learn it due to a twist of fortune) and then evolving into my bearded open-source devil form... Now if only there were an Emacs equivalent for 3D modeling and music, I'd be happy as a clam. Blender is great, but it just can't compete with ZBrush. EDIT: By the way, I was delighted to discover that Photopea (https://www.photopea.com/ https://www.photopea.com/) is a completely free, browser-based alternative to Photoshop. It has almost an identical UI, and it does 100% of what I need out of photoshop. We've been paying the $35/mo creative suite license, but I imagine lots of people still pirate it.
    - jackson1442 6y ago
      If you're wanting desktop software, Affinity[0] sells one-time-purchase licenses for their Photo, Designer, and Publisher software. I've never used Photoshop/Illustrator and generally do rather light work when I do need to edit/design, but I've been very happy with my purchase. Each license is $50, and the recently went on sale for $25 (but that's over now). [0]: https://affinity.serif.com https://affinity.serif.com
      - culturestate 6y ago
        I can't speak for the Photoshop -> Photo transition since that's never really been my thing, but if you've been using CS professionally for any length of time then going from Illustrator + InDesign to Designer + Publisher take some significant muscle memory retraining. I've been gradually switching over for the last ~6 months but I still have to reach for Ai or Id if there's a really time-sensitive task. The amount of subconscious automation that goes into making you really proficient at using some tool becomes very obvious when you try to use a different one.
the_af 6y ago
> [...] there are many of us who would not be where we are today, as productive, value-creating citizens, without having learned our trade with pirated software. Agreed. I learned to program with GW-BASIC which if I remember correctly was included in a (pirated) copy of MS-DOS. Then I graduated to pirated Turbo C and Borland C++, and (I think) only then to the genuinely free DJGPP (a port of GCC for DOS). If it weren't for pirated software, I wouldn't be a programmer today.
chaos_a 6y ago
This is why free student packs are super valuable. Students typically have little to no money and can't afford to buy expensive software. So the company gives you a temporary free copy so that once you have a job in the field your learning you can afford actually afford to buy it.
Hamuko 6y ago
>It's a shame... there are many of us who would not be where we are today, as productive, value-creating citizens, without having learned our trade with pirated software. I imagine Adobe has managed to keep a lot of mindshare for Photoshop simply by how widely it is pirated. If pirating Photoshop was absolutely impossible, there'd probably be a lot more Gimp users in this world.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

Piracy is still piracy, regardless of your personal feelings about the value of your own use case. You’re taking something that is not yours for taking.

kaibee 6y ago
This analogy really doesn't work, because taking something deprives someone of something they would've otherwise had. If you have the means to buy a piece of software and pirate instead to save money, then sure, I think you can make a case that it is 'taking'. When you're pirating something that you would've never been able to buy, who are you depriving of anything? I guess you're depriving those who have the means to buy that software of the exclusivity of their position, but is that something that they get to 'own'?
- nitrogen 6y ago
  depriving those who have the means to buy that software of the exclusivity of their position I'm gradually realizing that this probably plays a larger effect in society than we think. Like the ancient parable of the prodigal son, whose faithful brother was jealous that the rebel was celebrated in the end. Maybe it also plays out in lifelong CS devotees vs. CS-for- the-money people -- the nerds might feel that they have "earned" CS more, and the dayjob folks might not appreciate the depth of understanding that comes from the dedication of the lifelong devotees?
Groxx 6y ago
At a moral absolutist standpoint: yea, absolutely. Whether it's harmful or not, the intent is still to avoid paying for what you got, which is pretty straightforward. For almost any other positions: it's murkier. If you take a berry off a bush on public property... what's the morality? Or growing from private property overhanging public that's just dropping fruit and the owners are either not present or clearly allowing fruit to drop? It's theirs, they absolutely could harvest it, but they're not and it's clearly implied that is not going to change. Now what? Yes that's still further towards harmless than you can likely argue software piracy is (... ignoring the network effects of everyone knowing how to use X because everyone pirated it, or I could probably come up with others), but my point is that strict black and white separations have dividing lines and breaking points. Whether there is black or white somewhere isn't really useful to anyone, it's where you draw the line.

fearface 6y ago

ZBrush is $40/month. Makes me sad you can’t afford that.

zucker42 6y ago
$500/year is a nontrivial amount of money anywhere, but especially in many countries outside the U.S.
- ajzinsbwbs 6y ago
  In this thread though we are talking about someone’s experience using piracy to spend a month learning something. $40 seems like a reasonable alternative to that.
sillysaurusx 6y ago
Oh, thank goodness! You're right, it's $40/mo now for ZBrush 2020. ZBrush 3 and earlier was $895 with no monthly option, which is great for CAD professionals but out of reach of hobbyists. I'm glad they have an option now; thanks for pointing this out. (I'm surprised you're getting beat up for this sentiment. $40 is definitely below the threshold of "purchase on a whim and try to learn it for a month." FL Studio was another great one at $99. Still, I'm sympathetic to people who simply can't afford it – children especially.)
tpush 6y ago
40 bucks a month is a huge amount of money for most of the world's population.

rorykoehler 6y ago

That's one of the benefits of the subscription model that gets a lot of hate on here. You can try things easily without pirating and exposing yourself to malware.

pjmlp 6y ago

As developer myself, I rather use demo versions when available.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]