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Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'
- stygiansonic 6y agoThe other story about this fellow where his contract was accidentally terminated or not renewed (linked to from this article) is just about as Kafkaesque as you can get: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44561838 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44561838
- cal5k 6y agoThis is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude things. I'd probably end up affiliating with other Anglophones because we'd all be going through the same journey. Expecting people to completely suppress this tendency towards in-group affiliation seems, frankly, unscientific. Most of the popular proposals aimed at "eliminating racism" seem likely to fail, or even backfire, because they treat racism like it's something evil people do rather than a byproduct of our tendency to connect more easily to people like us.
- mhoad 6y agoI don't know if this is an ungenerous reading of what you are saying or not but that sounded vaguely like racism is a fact of life and we should just deal with it. Am I misreading you on that? If not, what kind of approaches do you think would be more appropriate?
- ck425 6y agoI think he's saying that discrimination in many forms is often - but not always - a side effect of evolutionary tribal tendencies and that if we don't take that into account when trying to reduce discrimination our efforts won't be successful. To me that sounds like realistic, if also extremely depressing, point. I'm optimistic though. We've been successfully living in larger and larger cultures throughout history and have overcome this difficulty many times.
- mhoad 6y agoI want to be clear, I wasn't debating there was some truth to the idea that racism is that thing that you can tie to an evolutionary biological level around a fear of outsiders. But I guess it is the second part that you touched on here as well. When you say take that into account.. how specifically? Like when someone performs a racist act, how should we respond in a modern society?
- ck425 6y agoIt's a tough question and I don't know the answer. I think the current trend of aggressively calling out micro-agressions is counter productive. In cases where there was no negative intent, it's easy to alienate the person who made the faux pas by implying or outright telling them they are racist. That makes them less likely to change behaviour in future. We need to take intent into account and response with education over policing when possible.
- alexashka 6y ago> Like when someone performs a racist act, how should we respond in a modern society? You'd first have to define what a racist act is and who gets to decide that it is so. We have a working system for these matters - legislative and judicial branches of government.
- mhoad 6y agoI feel like you're trying to look at this from a very abstract place where it is impossible to come to some all encompassing grand unifying theory and it feels like without that we shouldn't act until we have an answer to that question. I'm asking a question that says in spite of not having a perfect answer when you are in a situation and you watch a friend do a racist act, what response if any do you think is appropriate? What if it's not a single act that might be considered racist but a whole string of them? Do you think there is any kind of moral or social obligation to do anything or is ignoring it ok?
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- hogFeast 6y agoSo you are saying something that has existed throughout all periods of time, in every society isn't a fact of life? Also, speaking about racism particularly is something that makes very little sense historically. Racism has largely not been a problem because most societies weren't (and still aren't) multi-racial. The biggest issue has been religion and, more recently, class. Both of these distinctions are arbitrary and should highlight that discrimination, not racism, is the problem and that is a fact of life. You will get discriminated against if you are disabled, if you have a Southern accent, if you are too short, if you are too tall, if you are too fat, if you aren't fat enough, etc. On and on forever. This is constant, it is human nature. Btw, it is also worth saying that we largely have approaches that are effective. The only thing that history is really clear about is that constantly going over the past, seeking revenge/retribution, etc. doesn't work (many countries have gone down this route with power-sharing agreements due to religious/tribal conflict, it doesn't work). Equality means equality for all. Everyone is different. We all have to live with that. When you start from the basis that some people have an advantage/disadvantage because of their identity, the only way that ends is segregation and power-sharing agreements (usually after some period of terrorism/internal civil conflict). Everyone benefits from fairness, it isn't a race/religious/class issue.
- amcoastal 6y agoI don't see these two ideas as mutually exclusive. While putting aside our tribal nature seems unlikely, it seems realistic to think we could do something that would let most people stop considering race when deciding which "tribe" someone may belong to. You see this difference as well, which is why you based your example of reasonable tribal behavior on someone's actions/experiences rather than their skin color. It make sense to have tribal affiliations with other people that speak the same language as you do, it doesn't make sense to exclude someone from your tribe just because their skin is a different color.
- whiddershins 6y agoSo, off the top of my head two other kinds of in-group identity that have worked in the past are nationalism and religion. It seems those ideas aren’t so in favor right now, so how do we construct a sense of belonging that is truly positive?
- dx87 6y agoI feel the same way. I had a coworker who believed that racism was a personal choice, like stealing, and that you could eliminate it by creating harsher laws to punish people who did or said anything racist.
- okaythen 6y agoCan you explain how racism isn't a personal choice?
- dx87 6y agoPeople are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.
- 082349872349872 6y agoThere may not be laws[1] about getting angry, but there are laws about assault, let alone battery. [1] here referring to legal code, not social code.
- catalogia 6y agoAnger is a choice, at least to a limited extent. Managing ones emotions is a skill that can be honed with practice, if you're willing to make the effort. I don't say this to nitpick your point. I just think it's worth saying since some people may not realize they have a choice.
- cal5k 6y agoIt's not a choice at all. You don't choose to feel angry, but you can choose how you respond to it (often with great difficulty). Similarly, I have never seen evidence to suggest that the strong desire to associate with people like you (on one of many dimensions) can be eliminated. You do, however, get to decide how to act on that desire - likely to perpetually imperfect results as is the case with anger. I've let anger get the best of me before, and I'm sure I've judged people based on stereotypes despite my best intentions not to.
- okaythen 6y agoSorry that's ridiculous, if your in group affiliation excludes others its a huge problem with your group. Equating it to a language is also awful being exclusive on the grounds of sexuality, race and gender is a deliberate choice that people make. If your culture is lacking in diversity seek it out you'll never know what problems you can solve by adding to your view point.
- 082349872349872 6y agoIn Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle a karass describes the sort of tribe people are looking for. Unfortunately melanin content is not a karass, but instead a granfalloon. "La francophonie" is another granfalloon. But you have hit upon an easy way to distinguish immigrants from expats: immigrants hang out with people who have similar interests, while expats hang out with each other.
- jcims 6y ago>granfalloon Or in current parlance, 'community'. An assigned identity based on shared property across the set.
- gshdg 6y agoThis is totally irrelevant to the article. The article is about assumptions people make about a black programmer because he's a programmer and because he's black, and about how disappointingly rare black programmers are. Why are we not having a discussion about THAT?
- andreygrehov 6y agoHere is an interesting observation. If we take a look at how different nations are distributed across big cities, we can see that many neighborhoods are race specific. A lot of cities have chinese, jewish, russian, mexican, etc. neighborhoods, meaning that people _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people. What's more important, it happens organically. It's not like some organization or government forces people to move there. There are no incentives, no financial benefits. Nothing. People are free to live anywhere they want, but they still create those communities and prefer to live among their own kind. From this specific observation, it seems like racism is more like a biological thing, the product of evolution.
- davidgay 6y ago> _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people You are forgetting that those kinds of neighborhoods have developed in part because other people have taken mild-to-extreme steps to prevent "those" people from living with them. Known steps in the US include at the very least: - rules preventing "those" people from living in some places - mild-to-extreme actions against "those" people when they move in - people leaving when too many of "those" people move in I.e., "People are free to live anywhere they want" is completely wrong, even in living memory.
- zosima 6y agoSo all of these groups choose to live in separate neighborhoods, because they all are racist to each other? Not because they want to be around people that are similar to themselves? And the fact that the same pattern shows up basically everywhere. In Africa, Asia, Europe, North America and to some extent South America, does not change your perception?
- watwut 6y agoIs there something about European or Asian or American history that would make it reasonable to assume that racism was not factor shaping societies? Europe had pogroms before it had WWII. United States were racially legally segregated long after WWII. The Asian history does not lack racism either.
- cowboysauce 6y agoIn the United States, there were periods of time where Irish and Italian people were discriminated against. Yet today, the idea that an Irish people is part of the out-group and wouldn't fit in a workplace is completely out-dated. The Rwandan genocide was Hutus killing Tutsis, yet the distinction between the two was very arbitrary and in a lot of cases boiled down to "the Belgians liked your ancestors more so declared you to be Tutsis". Nazi Germany was allied with Japan despite all their racial purity rhetoric and some Jews were designated as "honorary Aryans". White supremacists today will gladly talk about the portion of white people who are "race traitors" and deserve to die. Humans might have a natural tendency to favor those in their "own group", but exactly what that means is completely arbitrary.
- 082349872349872 6y agoEmacs or vi? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliput_and_Blefuscu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliput_and_Blefuscu > The novel further describes an intra-Lilliputian quarrel over the practice of breaking eggs. Traditionally, Lilliputians broke boiled eggs on the larger end; a few generations ago, an Emperor of Lilliput, the Present Emperor's great-grandfather, had decreed that all eggs be broken on the smaller end after his son cut himself breaking the egg on the larger end. The differences between Big-Endians (those who broke their eggs at the larger end) and Little-Endians had given rise to "six rebellions ... wherein one Emperor lost his life, and another his crown".
- catalogia 6y agoIronic that the great unifying software is called 'evil.'
- josephcsible 6y agoTIL that's where the word for byte ordering came from.
- komali2 6y agoCorrect. So let's work towards squashing racism every time it crops up. We had a Catholic president, remember when that was a huge deal? Now nobody would bat an eye. Let's continue this for women, POC, LGBT, and so on. It's an ongoing battle.
- SuoDuanDao 6y agoI feel like we were doing fairly well moving towards a single 'human tribe' for the first part of my life, and that 'Racist' was such a powerful label because it was tantamount to putting the human tribe secondary to some sub-group. I'm not sure how or why, but it feels as though a large swathe of the intellectual class betrayed the project by changing the definition of racism from something an individual did, and could thereby be considered a traitor to the 'human' tribe, to something one could be guilty of merely by benefiting from when someone else betrayed the human tribe. If one person is a racist, everyone he favours is also guilty of racism under the new definition. No tribe could hold together under such conditions.
- cal5k 6y agoWell-said. That's why I believe it will lead to a backlash if left unchecked. History suggests that forcing people to suddenly view themselves in stark racial terms is a recipe for disaster.
- komali2 6y ago> to something one could be guilty of merely by benefiting from when someone else betrayed the human tribe. You may not be aware but this is a common alt-right strawman argument opposed to Black Lives Matter. The idea that all white people are vulnerable of being accused of racism simply because of their privilege. It's incorrect, and a strawman of the actual position, which is that silence aids the status quo. "There comes a time when silence is betrayal." ""First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;"
- cal5k 6y ago> You may not be aware but this is a common alt-right strawman argument opposed to Black Lives Matter. Just argue the point. This kind of insidious smear-by-association is what I despise so much about the current state of public discourse.
- geofft 6y agoI think you have a point, but I think your point is about out-group exclusion more than in-group affiliation. Otherwise we'd just affiliate with "humankind." Your feeling of obligation to learn French, I think, is about not wanting to be seen as an outsider, not wanting to be judged for your poor command of the language, etc., more than the positive aspect of fitting in. They're two sides of the same coin, yes, but it determines a bit where you end. You don't have to be immersed in French culture to avoid funny looks at stores, but you do have to be able to order food without people noticing anything strange. And you're not affiliating with the expats because you inherently want to define yourself as one, but because they won't judge you. And so I think responding to the truth of human desire for affiliation by saying "Everyone needs an out-group" is bound to end poorly. Historically, the expansion of certain in-groups (e.g., "white" in the US encompassing the Irish, Italians, and for the most part light-skinned Jews, Arabs, etc.) has been tied to more firmly defining an out-group or responding to the presence of a new out-group. I think we need to figure out how to make people comfortable with not having an out-group. (And, to the article itself, we very much need people to make a conscious effort to get over their desires for in-groups or distaste for out-groups when making hiring or investment decisions.)
- snthd 6y agoFrance might be a bad example. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/19/17590302/trevor-noah-france-french-ambassador-araud-world-cup https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/19/17590302/t...
- rootusrootus 6y agoThis seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start. I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least noticing. Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, but black people are so rare that it always feels like a surprise. Maybe there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem in play. I recall that when I was in the military, I got so used to the racial make-up, which has a lot more representation from black people than my hometown, that it wouldn't register at all. Just another guy. When it really hit home was after I'd been back in Oregon for a few months after I left the service, when I was walking across the college campus and noticed a small group of black students walking towards me. I noticed them, and then I realized that I had just noticed them, as if they were noteworthy. That was the moment I realized how white Oregon [mostly] is. I didn't feel negativity towards them, but I felt uncomfortable that it was something that even came to mind. In any case, we have two black guys on our team. Both really nice, but very different people. One of them acts like he was raised locally in a wealthy family, he's very laid back and doesn't seem to feel out of place. The other guy is a little older, and if you didn't know better you'd think he was a little hostile. No, he's wary. He acts like he's faced judgement his entire life and he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Easy to be comfortable around the first guy, much harder around the second guy. I want to act like it's not even anything to be aware of, but that in itself seems pretty dishonest. People are different, and that's totally okay. Good in fact, since they bring their own unique perspective to the daily problems we are asked to solve.
- 082349872349872 6y agoI heard an anecdote once about young parents who were mortified that their young child referred to the two Little Orphan Annie movies they had as "red Annie" and "black Annie." Judging by "image search", it is possible the child had been innocently referring to hair colour, and the mortification was due to what "even came to mind" for the parents.
- joshribakoff 6y ago> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases will never go away, we all have negative thoughts pop into our head, you cannot "ignore race", but we can all take steps to improve things.
- tobyhinloopen 6y agoNow that I think about it: I’ve met more female programmers than black ones. And I might have met maybe 2 female programmers, and 0 black programmers. Weird. Now imagine being a 50 year old black female programmer and getting hired. Anyway I’d welcome colleagues of any color and gender.
- oh_sigh 6y agoIn America, females make up 50% of the population and black people make up 14%. You should expect to see more female programmers than black programmers. Something which does break the mold is my FAANG remote office has more trans women(4 that have explicitly came out, or whatever the right term is) than black people(2 by visual inspection) as software engineers.
- wrycoder 6y ago“Now imagine being a 50 year old black female programmer and getting hired.“ If one showed up, you know very well she’d be hired. At least, that’s my impression of what would happen at a large company. “Anyway I’d welcome colleagues of any color and gender.” Yes.
- mcv 6y agoThe vast majority of female programmers I've met were Indian. White female programmers are surprisingly rare in Netherland. I'm not entirely sure what to make of this observation. Is Netherland more sexist than India? It's hard to deny based on this observation, but Dutch society is usually pretty egalitarian. A lot of women work. Just not in software. But it's not that women in general aren't interested in it, because Indian women clearly are.
- vxNsr 6y agoI have a hard time believing that ppl couldn’t place him by his name alone... Not saying it should work that way, but his name quiet obviously betrays him as not white. Also if you wanna claim Syrians or Lebanese ppl are light skinned... the % of Americans who know that is low double digits.
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- jcims 6y ago>Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of the workforce Just raw extrapolation, this would indicate that (13-3.1)/13 or 76% of black folks in technology are either unemployed or not working in tech. Is that the case? If it is, then laying this problem at the feet of employers and the systems involved with hiring and retention seems fair. If not, then there might be more work to be done to develop interest in the industry in the young and displaced folks that are looking for a career path IN ADDITION to continuing to ensure that the hiring and retention results in industry are reasonable given the pool of folks that are interested in the work.
- Edmond 6y agoNot sure where the author got his numbers from but if you read the full article, the author notes that the numbers/percentages themselves can be misleading, because that 3.1% could include the security guard who swipes your badge or some other peripheral role at a technology company. It is also true that Blacks do in fact quit the industry at high rates due to bias treatment; based on the number of computer science and technology degrees granted to blacks, their representation should be higher if there was higher retention. It is also the case that blacks in technology often end in up in specific sectors of the industry, for instance you'll find much higher black representation in the public sector, specifically in the federal government...unfortunately that is not likely to be the source of the next great tech innovator.
- foogazi 6y ago> for instance you'll find much higher black representation in the public sector, specifically in the federal government Do you know why that is? Maybe government work is more inclusive, like the military
- kube-system 6y agoI'd guess it's due to more process, procedure, and regulatory structure. It's very common for private companies to have little to no formal criteria for evaluating candidates. Intuition is more subject to bias than a formal process.
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoThe author hits on something really important. Many people who entered the field 10+ years ago are people who had computers as children. If you’re 30+ right now, that means your family had some means, because computers were very expensive up until pretty recently. Hopefully we’ll see the pipe really getting wide now, and many more people from many different backgrounds entering this excellent field.
- doopy-loopy2 6y agoNope. My parents were refugees and arrived in this country with just the clothes on their backs. They worked factory jobs their entire life and never made much more than minimum wage. I scraped and saved to buy my first computer and teach myself about the internet. We were never given anything from anyone.
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoYou sound exceptional in more than a few ways.
- anonytrary 6y agoWhile I don't necessarily agree with parent comment, I don't think this is a refutation. I can tell you right now that the majority of poor families in the US provide less STEM encouragement compared to well-off families. While your anecdote is warming, I don't think it is very representative.
- jpindar 6y agoNope. I bought all my own computers with my paper route & Dunkin Donuts job money. I don't remember how much it cost, but I don't recall it being a big deal financially.
- unishark 6y agoI remember when the vic-20 price was cut to $99, and the commodore 64 wasn't much more.
- hogFeast 6y agoNot to be harsh but the only evidence he actually gives is: there weren't many other black developers...which isn't surprising given how few black people study CS. Like getting offended when someone says: "I couldn't tell where you are from"...is odd. I get that...and I am white, I just have an accent that is dissimilar to the place where I live (I am from "here" but people think I am not...everytime I go into this shop, literally everytime, the guy asks me if I am on holiday...I don't think I know that he is a xenophobe because he asks me that). If you come from Guinea...yes, people are going to ask questions and say stuff about that. A lot of it sounds like hypotheticals...him saying, if you are black then this will happen...which is a really negative way of thinking (it is like saying if you are fat, you will get abused in the street...maybe it will happen but that stuff happens to non-fat people too, and saying that being fat is the reason kind of disguises that). Also, I think most people have experience of being the "only" something at their workplace. You will work some places and have nothing in common with anyone...it happens. Irregardless of the above, I struggle to see what could be different for some people not to have a problem. Some people have a very unrealistic interpretation of how other people live their lives. Everyone always has more friends, more luck, more money, their boss is nicer, the air they breathe is cleaner, etc.
- austincheney 6y agoI have frequently heard stories like these but find them odd. Perhaps these are scenarios that occur more frequently at smaller companies. Most of my professional corporate experience has been at large companies. As an example people of Indian and Middle East decent make up less than 1% of the US population but if I had to guess the percentage of my developer coworkers from Indian or Middle East decent it would be at least 40%. At larger companies like I have been at there are all kinds of foreign accents and nobody makes a thing of it. Nobody tries to guess where people are from. I only discovered one of my coworkers is of Kuwaiti decent after disclosing that I am temporarily relocating to Kuwait (I thought was Greek but was not curious enough to bring it up). Honestly I don’t think I would want to work at place that allowed such exclusive habits about my coworkers which make these stories all the more strange to me.
- etewiah 6y agoHere's my relevant anecdote: I was working in a large telecoms company in Amsterdam when we had a problem with some hardware that needed fixed. Someone came over to fix it the next morning and after a few hours it still wasn't resolved. I then asked my colleague who had been with the technician if it was likely to get fixed soon. He said something about how terrible the technician was and that got me confused as my colleague wasn't a hardware guy and I didn't quite know how he had assessed the technician. I pressed him a bit more and he said something like "you haven't seen him have you"? Which made me wonder - so is there something about this technician which will make it obvious on seeing him that he is bad? No prizes for guessing the first thing I noticed about the man when I went down to the server room.....
- LudwigNagasena 6y ago> I am a Guinean citizen, who went to French school in Saudi Arabia, and now lives in California. So he is not even African-American. I can’t understand why it is important to him how much people share skin color with him, he should feel as good as any other immigrant. Do even middle class Americans segregate themselves by race at work?
- foogazi 6y agoIt is important to him because it’s important to the other non-PoC people that keep thinking he should not be in the room Re-read the interview anecdote: the interviewer, probably not having many black coworkers, thought that a black man would not be interviewing in tech Nothing to do with job qualification for the job
- randompwd 6y ago> Re-read the interview anecdote: the interviewer, probably not having many black coworkers, thought that a black man would not be interviewing in tech How are we able to put words in the (non participating) interviewer's mouth? If you're using the words 'probably' and 'thought' in one sentence, maybe your point isn't really valid. That's a lot of pre-supposing.
- atdt 6y agoThis isn't going to be a popular sentiment here, but I think Ibrahim's experiences shows why diversity training is important. It's 2020; there is no reason for things like this happen: > I've been to job interviews where the receptionist will take me to a whiteboard room. When the interviewer comes in, he'd say: "I'm sorry, you must be in the wrong room." > I often get: "I couldn't tell where you are from on the phone." I often hear complaints that diversity training is largely cosmetic and doesn't get at the root of the problem. To some extent that is true: teaching people not to act surprised when they encounter a black software engineer is an interim strategy while we all work on making diversity unsurprising (because commonplace). But as this op-ed shows, seemingly small foot-in-mouth "gaffs" can be surprisingly hurtful, and they are largely correctible with training. Such training is best understood as one component in what is (or ought to be) a broader social project — but it's an important component, especially now.
- melfix 6y agoI think one of the problems with public discourse right now is that we're failing to separate a number of important topics. This problem—the cumulative effect of racial attitudes on the lived experience of black people—deserves to be considered on its own, but is often conflated with police reform and the activity of explicitly racist groups. I think you're right that the best tool to combat this problem specifically is awareness.
- okaythen 6y agoThis is it, what those statements are implicitly saying is you can't be black and work in tech. They place an extra barrier in a already difficult situation.(job interviews)
- Mirioron 6y ago>I often hear complaints that diversity training is largely cosmetic and doesn't get at the root of the problem. Does it work? I can certainly see a scenario whereby mandating diversity training could just make the situation worse instead. Obviously I understand how it might improve things too. So, does it work? >But as this op-ed shows, seemingly small foot-in-mouth "gaffs" can be surprisingly hurtful, and they are largely correctible with training. I don't see how you will ever get rid of them. Sure, maybe for one identifiable group, but then it'll be something else. There are a million things by which these kinds of foot in mouth situations can arise that are hurtful. You can't have training for all of that, which means that some people will have to get over it in other ways. Or are those okay because they're not about race?
- o-__-o 6y agoAll of these comments and I’m left wondering if I’m the only black person commenting in this thread. I’ve been passed up for promotions, fired, and hired based solely on my color. I keep moving on but y’all it’s been 20 years of this. And it just started getting a little better in the past 3 years but is a total gamble based on where you work. In my current Fortune 500 job, I was hired for my expertise then was moved to a new team where my expertise didn’t even matter. Every issue that came up that I had qualifications for I was passed over for a lesser skilled White man. I’m used to this but this was my shot at moving up with a big company name behind me and it was ruined for what I can only wonder if it was an unconscious bias. Now I don’t care and I’m doing just enough and it seems as though I’m not going to get fired because it will look bad on paper. Yes I’m projecting, one could say don’t give up and you could have another chance.. and that exact situation presented itself but really..... I don’t care anymore. I’ve made my 20 years of industry money why am I still fighting against a system that is obviously unfair to me. I’ll let the next generation try and when they fail I will welcome them into my business with open arms. So here is my advice to all minorities, poc, women, etc disenfranchised groups: focus on yourself, stay with a good team/company when you do find one, stay connected to the community, and above all help help help your fellow struggling humans. We are all in this together and one day you will be helming your own company (this is hacker news right?) that matters with the people you met and mentored along the way. Edit: Just in case it’s not obvious I’m a millennial and I had a wonderful early childhood start to my career that other black men and women don’t get the luxury to have. So it’s not like I’m an old man in my 50s, I’m the same age as a lot of folks here and have worked on the same systems that a lot of older folks have built... but my resume is probably littered with lower roles than those that you’ve held. Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to burn this throwaway to continue hiding my skin color on the internet
- ibudiallo 6y agoHey everyone, author here. It seems like this post have been flagged, but I'd like to add a little comment here so it may clarify things. First, a little over a week ago we were having a similar discussion here [1] and I promised I'd post my article about it. This is the article. Second, I want people to understand that this is a complex issue and the solution might/should be as complex. It's not a case of, OK let's hire 20 more black people and it's over. The reality is that, well first you have to find them, and then you have to see if they qualify for a job you are actually hiring for. But one thing that anyone one here can do is get up from their chair and look around the office, you immediately notice that black people aren't there. This is what this article is doing. It's asking why? Every anecdote I brought up about treatment is something that happened to me on multiple occasions. Now I'm getting hundreds of emails with people saying "you pulled the words out of my mouth." And some examples sound innocent enough and could be interpreted in many ways. But like Joel Spolsky once said, "it's the tiny little frustration that add up"[2] and at some point you are angry and don't even know why. This is a call to be more understanding and for all of us to be aware of the challenges black people face. I don't have a solution to end racism, and I don't pretend I do. But when we all understand each other a little better, racism tend to start fading away. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544856 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544856 [2]: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/10/controlling-your-environment-makes-you-happy/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/10/controlling-your-e... Edit: typo and my mistake, this post is not flagged as of writing.
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- darkerside 6y agoThanks for speaking up. I don't know how to fix any of this, but I do know that we need to value each other's experiences, and that can't happen without us sharing them for what they are. Hard as it is for you, and easy as it is to say for me, I do believe your uncomfortable experiences are changing things for the better. Every VC that hurries out of a room may not have invested in your company, but you just pushed a commit to their mental blockchain that will stick with them forever. Another promising young black entrepreneur is going to get his (or her) shot _because_ you didn't get yours.
- SnarkRUs 6y agoThere is something so familiar about watching all the commie-lefty virtue signaling about this sudden racial awareness in an election year where there is a 4 year seething grudge against the current incumbent. Nobody seems to complain about the NBA or NFL racial makeups. Where are all the Mexicans in the NBA? What about the Filipinos? How come there are so few Japanese working at Popeye's? Clearly it's discrimination! You see, I grew up here in the good ole dirty American south. We're all colors down here. Had a black mayor in our major city for the last 40 years. My black neighbors drive nicer cars than me and live in nicer houses. We all go to school together, play ball together, eat together, go to church together and live near one another in harmony. It's been the case here as long as I've lived here. Hell, I have a black female dentist. She's wonderful. The black folks I work with are great. They're smart, they work hard, they're fun and creative - just like anyone else of any other color you'd like to work with. My lilly white kids go to a 70% black populated school. They have classmates and friends of all colors. We get along just fine down here in the dirty south. Now, I don't want to take anything serious away from the racism conversation, it's a real thing for sure. The problem is not nearly as large however as the commie-lefty media and their compliant globalist mega-corps are making it out to be. BLM is a George Soros funded conservative hitjob organization. Look at all the whiteys in the protest coverage. Hell, it seems that there's more of them than the black folks. If anything, those people are once again exploiting legitimate black issues for political attention. It's pathetic. I hate it for my black friends and neighbors to have the commie-lefty faux heros oppress them further with their highly public empathy statements (a.k.a "virtue signaling") and promising handouts as if black folks are unable to help themselves. They're doing great, because after all, we are all equal under the law and have been for quite some time that's for sure. Some of you need to get the hell out of your echo-chamber lefty cities and realize that the world is bigger and far more diverse than what you see on the news. When I go to San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Dallas I almost always pause with a "what's up with all these white people?" thought. That's because it's different than what I'm used to in my city. It's not bad or wrong, the mind notices differences. Conversely, when I look at the company directory in the American globalist mega corp I happen to work in I say to my self, wow there sure are a lot of Indians and Chinese names in here. You know, Indians and Chinese are the largest populations on the earth I guess that just makes sense...here...in...America. Quick, I'm going to go burn down a Dairy Queen!
- mtgp1000 6y agoI feel like we are all ignoring the fact that literally any perceived disrespect can be blamed on racism, especially if you've been conditioned to look for it, and it's often impractical or impossible to prove otherwise, particularly once the mob has mobilized. Being told you're a victim all your life can make you feel like a victim, even when you aren't. And now that victimhood is currency, all I see as a foreigner looking in is a growing unilateral justification for the oppression and deliberate marginalization of whites. Young white boys are already being left behind in school. You don't solve oppression with oppression.
- born_a_skeptic 6y agoIdentity politics.
- dnissley 6y agoYeah, we're in a weird world where there is still some residual racism (which is not evenly distributed -- some areas being worse than others), but so does all of this weird overcompensation for the fact that racism exists in the world. I've seen some minorities (especially of medium brown skin tone) talk about being asked what their ethnicity is, and being offended by that. I've also had that happen, being a strange looking mix of asian/hispanic/white, but didn't ever know that I should be offended by a question like that. So I just answered their question without even thinking twice about it -- sometimes returning the question and starting a broader conversation about family history. If I had been told that kind of question was inappropriate earlier in my life though, then I might have gone around being offended... and honestly I'm glad I didn't have that idea put in my head.
- scarface74 6y agoAgain, for context, I’m Black and I’ve been in the industry for 25 years. I have never experienced what the author experienced. Maybe it’s because I’ve worked in Atlanta all of my career where companies are use to seeing Black professionals? It could be that I’ve spent all of my career in the staid enterprise development space instead of Big Tech? Whatever it is, I can’t ignore statistics because of the anecdotal experience of myself and my friends in tech. However, I have a 0% success rate with video interviews. My only video interviews were the ones I had with AWS. It was a success. Again, I’m not going to discount his truth.
- treis 6y ago>Again, for context, I’m Black and I’ve been in the industry for 25 years. I have never experienced what the author experienced. >Maybe it’s because I’ve worked in Atlanta all of my career where companies are use to seeing Black professionals? It's not just you. I'm not black but, am from Atlanta, and maybe that's the common link but this just seems like it's from a different planet. It's just hard for me to grok things like this: >I've been to job interviews where the receptionist will take me to a whiteboard room. When the interviewer comes in, he'd say: "I'm sorry, you must be in the wrong room." >But the day I come to the office in person, they are taken aback. I often get: "I couldn't tell where you are from on the phone." Who are these people that are surprised that a guy named Ibrahim is black?
- darkerside 6y agoMy guess is the accent was throwing people to the point it seemed like a "bait and switch".
- mcv 6y agoI can certainly imagine that this sort of thing can vary wildly by region, by city, and certainly by country.
- ternarybash 6y agoBlack developer here. Couldn't imagine after conducting a talk, attendees asking technical questions to my non-techincal peers. Thats a serious slap to the face.
- forgot_user1234 6y agoI am really curious about brown people. How come Indians succeed in tech? Why do we have so many Indians in tech? if it's just the skin colour. Why do Indians in tech rise to the top. P.S. - Before you try to cancel me - I am not trying to start a flame war. I am curious about your explanation.
- lilactown 6y agoIn the socratic fashion, I would ask you: why are Chinese or Japanese people treated differently when they have very light skin, similar to white people? The answer is that it's not just your skin color but many other features that lead people to assume many other things about you: culture, heritage, upbringing, physical and mental acumen, etc. Historically, black people from Africa in America have been routinely oppressed and forced into the lower class, whereas Indian people have a much different history (that I cannot speak to, I don't know much about it). Therefore, they are treated much differently by our society.
- searchableguy 6y agoSplit Indians into two categories or maybe three based on - family background (wealth), h1b1 visa and immigrant generation. I think you might have your answer.
- historyremade 6y agoI always had bad experiences with Indians. It's like they do it for fame. Most Indians end up scamming me out. That's another topic.
- NikkiA 6y ago> How come Indians succeed in tech? Why do we have so many Indians in tech? Because of IIT, mostly, it's been a hugely successful program in the last 60 years, that coupled with a culture that considers tech work 'valuable'. Then some of those IIT grads go abroad and bring the 'tech work is good work' ethos with them and raise 'second generation' kids with similar principles in their (now non-indian) educational system.
- born_a_skeptic 6y agoI don't know who is right, but I always think it's always good to look at important issues from multiple points of views. If anyone is interested in understanding another point of view, check out Tucker Carlson. He has black guests on all the time who make a pretty good counter-case and provide their perspective.
- jeffrallen 6y agoI'd hire either of you, if you kick ass on the take home challenge. Work and teamwork matters. Everything else has no place in the work place.
- zerr 6y agoYou don't ask the first meal for free when you go to the restaurant, do you?
- scarface74 6y agoNone of my last three jobs - the dev lead position, the cloud architect/developer or Amazon asked me to do a take home test. I’ve never done a take home test in my life. Every time I’ve been on the job market before now, I usually have multiple offers within two weeks. By the time I did a “take home test”, I would have at least one or two offers that didn’t require it.
- austhrow743 6y agoIf I was looking to drop hundreds of thousands on a catering company, when the relationship could net them millions and millions over the future years, hell yes I'd expect samples to be part of the sales process.
- zerr 6y agoCV is your free sample. If you order the full meal, prepare to pay for it.
- dang 6y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23671591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23671591 since it turned distracting.
- baron816 6y ago> Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of the workforce. I don't think it's fair to compare the ratio of black people in tech/at large tech companies to the population as a whole. There are a lot of things keeping black people from being able to even consider a career in tech, particularly educational attainment. Sure, you can get a job in tech without a college degree, but black people are still much less likely to have access to a computer or a high speed internet connection, or have the free time to be able to tech themselves the necessary skills. Let's also not forget that, horrifically, 1 in 3 black men in America have spent time in prison (many unjustly). So I think before we go around and say X company is racist because at least 13% of their workforce isn't black, we need to contend with how awful outcomes for black people are in America and try instead to do what we can to ensure they have a truly equal opportunity to thrive.
- cwhiz 6y agoIn all my years of interviewing people I have only interviewed a black person twice. I hired one of them and the other turned me down. I’m sure I’ve screened out some in the phone conversation stage but it’s impossible to know for sure. I sometimes wonder about this. I don’t think I’ve ever discounted someone based on their name or how they spoke, but it would also be difficult for me to determine that. I also don’t recall but a few black students in CS or SE during undergrad. Are black people extremely underrepresented in CS fields, in general? It’s also impossible to not guess when you see a name or hear someone talk. If I saw a peculiar name or heard a peculiar accent I would be curious to hear their story. I can try to ignore that impulse but the fact of the matter is if I saw the name “Steven White” I would be surprised if a black man or woman walked in the room. It would be hard for me to hide that surprise from my face.
- anonytrary 6y ago> Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of the workforce. I think the right metric to look at is the "percentage of black people who have the necessary degrees or equivalent qualifications". You can't blame companies for the problem if the disproportionality is introduced in the education funnel. In that case, the question that needs to be asked is "why are black people less likely to go into STEM"?
- UncleMeat 6y agoDo you know what school graduates more black cs graduates than any other. Georgia tech. How many major tech companies have serious hubs in Atlanta? Some of them, but certainly not all. People don’t like to move. A nontrivial amount of the pipeline problem can be addressed by opening offices in the southeast.
- anonytrary 6y agoIf the best talent or opportunity isn't in the southeast, then companies won't go there, so I think it's not as simple as "just open your office in the southeast". Companies are distributed closer to their relevant hubs. Like you said, people don't want to move, especially if it means taking loss in efficacy.
- UncleMeat 6y agoThen people need to give up on this "its a pipeline problem" argument, like tech companies have no capability of acquiring different pipelines.
- anonytrary 6y agoIt's not about the capability, it's about the switching cost. A business's cash flow is like their blood flow; they do things that bankrupt them, they die. You can't expect businesses to go bankrupt to perform a contrived move. There is an energy cost for every change.
- golemiprague 6y agoEvery group of people have some average preference for certain professions. I am sure there is some profession which miss Indian workers because they tend to concentrate in tech and petrol station or whatever it is in your country. If you choose to work in tech just prepare to deal with it and stop whinging, the same way a white person should accept the fact that his representation will be lower in tech than in the general population. If black people want to be more in tech they should just change their preference, I don't think that tech people are inherently less accepting than lawyers or the oh so racist police where there is much larger black representation. The first Indian who was in tech was also a bit of rarity, they just kept coming and it is fine now. To summarise, it is all on black people to fix if they choose to, the rest of us can't do much about it.
- Roofduck 6y agoI've always wondered whether it has anything to do with the number of applicants whom are black. It's the same argument with why there are fewer women developers, there could simply be that there are more men in the industry. Let's assume that 9 out of 10 applicants for a developer role are men, then the odds of that role being filled by anyone that isn't a man is 10% (not factoring other considerations such as skill, experience etc). Is this not a similar challenge with black developers? According to the stack overflow survey, the ethinicity of the respondants whom are Black or African descent is only at 4.5%. I'd be interested to see data on the demographics of, not only the employed staff at a company but all applicants that have applied including those whom were rejected or turned down the roles.
- jokethrowaway 6y agoI'm half black. I think my story started pretty bad but become much better so sharing hoping someone else may feel more hopeful. I grew up in a south european racist country and I had some fun times. Nothing serious, kids making fun of me, cops stopping me to check if I was dealing drugs, if I had a passport or a knife. I started working when I was 14 as a developer online, mainly because I wanted to get out of there and stop being surrounded by idiots. That country was terrible for jobs anyway and by 16 I was getting a decent pay for the country, just by making a few ad supported website and by freelancing with the rest of the world. At 22, after getting my dose of almost free university, I ran to London, where I never experienced any form of racism. I raised some money for my startup (which failed) without particular problems and after that I started contracting. Given my provable experience, I got senior level jobs pretty much immediately and got a nice pay for Europe at 23-24 (90k+£) which increased and become a remote half eng half manager job in the following years. All those racist kids back in my home country are still stuck in jobs paying less than a barista in the UK. It doesn't matter what other people think. Your perceived "race" doesn't matter, it's just one of the characteristics that define you and some people will react positively and give you free scholarships or quota jobs. Some people will react negatively and think you're a criminal, some won't give you a job. That's life. Probably something similar happens to you because of your height, because you're attractive / ugly, because of your gender, because you dress well / bad. If you were to think of all the possible positive and negative characteristics that influence how someone is perceived, you could partition people in so many different groups, you wouldn't even know who you should "positively discriminate" which means negatively discriminate everyone else. But there are so many other things you can do to improve yourself and compensate with words and skills whatever bias may someone else hold. I had some insecurities linked to my skin color and to some physical defects but, as part of training to become a better leader, I learned to embrace them and to use them to to surround yourself with people who can be positive for you. I don't like how this issue has been politicised recently and I think it reflects incredibly poorly on us. One of the stigma I have to fight is that of scaring someone if we're walking in the same street at night. I hope the situation will not get worse and that we won't raise a generation of kids that think that black people = violent riots to steal tv and get money.
- HelixEndeavor 6y agoAlmost like Affirmative Action is a shit program or something. Even when it "works" as intended it just creates more problems.
- archagon 6y agoIt’s a travesty that this was flagged off the front page. The topic is directly relevant to the tech industry and we actually have some really good discussion in the comments. Sigh...
- ilaksh 6y agoMy personal take is that there is still a massive global problem with racism and more generally prejudice that reinforces social inequality. I actually think it is not just a problem for black people (although this is a primary example, and I do not mean to say that all prejudicial treatment is equivalent) but for many different groups. For example, my fairly poorly informed understanding is that in some large segments of Chinese population racism against all other groups is very popular. And also for example Han versus non-Han, although that may be more of an ethnic distinction, which to me is a flavor of the same. Or for example there seems to be a very strong stereotype for Americans as being lazy, unintelligent, and gun-toting. So I guess these are not all the same concept, but different types of prejudice. It feels like a fairly monumental task to reduce prejudice and the inequalities that it reinforces.
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- kqvamxurcagg 6y agoI have to say I find the featured developer Ibrahim racist. He appears to view everything through race and has a special affinity towards other people who share his race. He also projects that black people are hired accidentally rather than hired on merit. I find his perspective deeply disturbing.