25 ms·

Sensors detect rise in nuclear particles on Baltic Sea

437 points by BerislavLopac 6y ago

Torkel 6y ago
Now, this is probably nothing. The sensors are doing their thing and from time to time there is a spike. On the other hand, this is how Chernobyl first was reported... For more radiation horror pease read about the ”Goiânia accident”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident (Learned about it recently and wow. What a story.)
- jl6 6y ago
  It's probably not a problem... probably... just a showing a small discrepancy. It's well within acceptable bounds. Seriously, I’d be interested in some stats on how various nuclear accidents have been disclosed/reported. Feels like a good litmus test of transparency.
  - ixfo 6y ago
    Set anti-mass spectrometers to 105%.
- highhedgehog 6y ago
  I read about that story. it's incredible. love it (in a weird way I guess, but it was so fascinating)
- Arech 6y ago
  Wow.. Never heard of it before, thanks. That heavily reminds me the "Roadside Picnic" (1972) novel of Strugatsky brothers (that same novel, that coined term "Stalker"). The only difference that the heroes of the novel dealt with consequences of alien civilization visit, and ”Goiânia accident” is purely our's own...
  - fnord123 6y ago
    Roadside picnic didn't coin the term stalker. Stalker is a Soviet film based on the book.
    - krick 6y ago
      Yes it did. "Stalker" is the name of their profession in the book.
      - fnord123 6y ago
        The word "stalker" comes from the 1500s. Deer stalking is a profession that existed in the 1800s. Roadside Picnic came out in 1971. Maybe you mean Roadside Picnic introduced the English word "stalker" to the Russian language? It certainly didn't coin the term (create a new word).
        zxcmx 6y ago
        It coined the use of "stalker" to refer to a specific sort of post-apocalyptic profession, someone who is adept at navigating the waste left by some disaster or "forbidden" places. Dangers might be physical, radiological, or metaphysical. In modern usage it has made its way into books and video games, and people who do tours of Chernobyl have been known to refer to themseves as such.
        krick 6y ago
        "Roadside Picnic" is a Russian book. The word "stalker" wasn't used in Russian language at all before it. Hence, it coined the term. The rest is demagogy.
        fnord123 6y ago
        That's not what coining a word means.
    - ehnto 6y ago
      I'm not a huge film buff or anything, but I did watch Stalker. The music and cinematography was captivating in a way I rarely get in anything but video games or books. Usually movies don't capture me that way, they're far too fast, literal and descriptive. Stalker left so much to the imagination that I was constantly engaged in trying to figure out what they were thinking, where they were going, and what it was they expected to find. It gave me all the time I needed to think about it too.
- mcguire 6y ago
  Or the Church Rock incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Rock_uranium_mill_spill?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Rock_uranium_mill_spill...
  - hirsin 6y ago
    Thank you for this. It's my first time learning about it. I'm almost happy it's unknown since this is such a better argument against nuclear power than 3 Mile etc. Although I suppose for it to be an effective scare tactic you'd have to ask yourself some tricky questions about how much you value indigenous lives over corporations...
    - grogenaut 6y ago
      Take a look at the hanford site if you want to be scared. And look at where it is, note that's the Columbia river, which rolls right through northern portland. Or if you don't care about people, it also powers most of the data centers in the northwest. And is right near where most of the hops are grown (won't someone think of the beer!). https://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/AboutHanfordCleanup https://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/AboutHanfordCleanup https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hanford+Site/@46.5656811,-119.5142379,40189m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x54985a3722b17805:0x350eb8746e4035a7!8m2!3d46.5506839!4d-119.4889741 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hanford+Site/@46.5656811,-... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Portland+International+Airport/@45.6001755,-122.6302165,26336m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x54985a3722b17805:0x350eb8746e4035a7!2sHanford+Site!8m2!3d46.5506839!4d-119.4889741!3m4!1s0x5495a0aa74dc20d1:0x5bda7693380e5c3d!8m2!3d45.589777!4d-122.5950623 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Portland+International+Air...
      - mcchew 6y ago
        That area also has lots of Bitcoin mining operations. All of society is at risk over here.
        grogenaut 6y ago
        Definitly, the world would be much worse off without the blockchain!
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago
  Well There's Your Problem did an episode on that: https://youtu.be/34rdxDgpaaA https://youtu.be/34rdxDgpaaA
  - andbberger 6y ago
    Should probably add a disclaimer for people who expect a dry engineering history podcast! wtypp is truly excellent, but go in expecting irreverence
- kens 6y ago
  My favorite radioactive contamination story is the truck in Juarez that was unknowingly contaminated with Cobalt-60 pellets. The truck died (for unrelated reason) and was scrapped and melted down in an iron foundry. The contamination was only discovered by accident when a truckload of rebar made a wrong turn in Los Alamos National Laboratories and set off a radiation alarm. They managed to track down the truck, find the source of the radiation, and get rid of the contaminated metal. Fortunately, nobody died. https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/accidents/juarez.htm https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/accidents/juarez.htm
  - qbaqbaqba 6y ago
    I live near an aluminum foundry and everything going in goes through a radiation detector.
    - m4rtink 6y ago
      Same with waste incineration plants, for the same resons - apparently it is sensitive enough to detect even diapers with radio contrast therapy residue inside a full garbage truck.
      - sandworm101 6y ago
        Some airports got these post-911. They were called "granny detectors" because rather than finding dirty bombs they always found the old person who just underwent a scan using radioactive tracer. They reality is that many medical procedures irradiate patients. Many dead bodies, if they were not human, would be radioactive enough to be considered hazardous.
        scruple 6y ago
        > Many dead bodies, if they were not human, would be radioactive enough to be considered hazardous. I'm curious, can they be (safely) cremated?
        6y ago
- georgecmu 6y ago
  Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accide... In 1989, a small capsule containing highly radioactive caesium-137 was found inside the concrete wall of an apartment building, with a surface gamma radiation exposure dose rate of 1800 R/year. The source, originally a part of a radiation level gauge, was lost in the Karansky quarry. The gravel from the quarry was used in construction. The cesium capsule ended up in the concrete panel of Apartment 85 of Building 7 on Gvardeytsev Kantemirovtsev Street, between apartments 85 and 52. Over 9 years, two families lived in Apartment 85. A child's bed was located directly next to the wall containing the capsule. By the time the capsule was discovered, 4 residents of the building had died from leukemia and 17 more had received varying doses of radiation. The accident was detected only after the residents requested that the level of radiation be measured in the apartment by a health physicist. Part of the wall was removed and sent to the Institute for Nuclear Research (NASU), where the cesium capsule was removed and disposed of. The total number of deaths is alternately reported as 2, 4 (3 children and one adult), or 6 (4 children and 2 adults).
  - fsflover 6y ago
    Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core
    - WhiteSage 6y ago
      Or this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acerinox_accident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acerinox_accident In May 1998, a caesium-137 source managed to pass through the monitoring equipment in an Acerinox scrap metal reprocessing plant in Los Barrios, Spain. When melted, the caesium-137 caused the release of a radioactive cloud. The Acerinox chimney detectors failed to detect it, but it was eventually detected in France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany and Austria. The radioactive levels measured were up to 1000 times higher than normal.
      - trenchgun 6y ago
        How harmful is 1000 times higher than normal?
- pizza234 6y ago
  I find something in this story puzzling - why were the IGR owners charged? Based on the story as published on Wikipedia, they tried to recover the unit, but they were officially barred to do so.
  - worewood 6y ago
    When faced with tragedy some people need to know "who was guilty", so this leads to lots of lawsuits like this. Lack of education led to the trespassing of property, zero knowledge of radiation to believing it was supernatural, the justice system preventing the cleanup, etc. Means there is no single point of guilt and its hard for people to grasp this.
  - pierrec 6y ago
    That part of the article is poorly phrased and leaves out some important information on the judgement. There's a link to an issue of Nuclear Law Bulletin that provides better detail. The biggest charges were ordered to be paid by CNEN (since preventing this kind of accident is part of their job, and they were notified of the potential danger well in advance) and IPASGO (the new owners of the site, who were also aware of the danger and didn't really do anything about it). Finally as you say, two people from IGR (the clinic that moved out) were also charged, because they removed "gates, windows, timberwork and the roof" from the facility while leaving the radioactive device for later - which might also explain why the new owners eventually got pissed and decided to lock them out. In short the whole thing was a collective train wreck, but the most obvious failure seems to be that CNEN should have taken action immediately after being notified of the danger. Hopefully they're a bit more reactive now. https://web.archive.org/web/20120318233148/http://www.oecd-nea.org/law/nlb/Nlb-66/023-032.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20120318233148/http://www.oecd-n...
- ojbyrne 6y ago
  Another: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire
- biggestdecision 6y ago
  For anyone else interested in the topic of radiological accidents, check out the reports published by the IAEA. https://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub815_web.pdf https://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub815_web.pd... Curiously like in the series Chernobyl, the first person to take radiation measurements at the scene in Goiania thought his equipment was faulty, because it measured at the maximum of the scale.
- saulrh 6y ago
  > For more radiation horror I'll skip, thanks. I already get enough horror stories and don't need wacky outliers leaning on my brain's various failure modes. Like, it took me less than ten seconds to find a news article from last month in a specific city titled "family of 5 killed in car crash". I can't spend my anxiety on things that are so much less dangerous than anything else I do in a given day.
- xg15 6y ago
  > *Now, this is probably nothing. The sensors are doing their thing and from time to time there is a spike. I can't imagine that the engineers at that monitoring station wouldn't check for measuring errors before releasing such a statement.
- jnxx 6y ago
  These sensors can be incredibly sensitive and can capture contamination from small technical or medical radiation sources over a long distance. What is much more of a mystery is how little we understand about the effects of low-dose radiation. In Germany, there was a study started after since 1990 a cluster of leukemia cases appeared around a specific power plant near Hamburg. So, a large statistical study was done about the incidence of leukemia in all of Germany, and whether there is a correlation with distance to power plants. There was a correlation found (http://nbn-resolving.de/urn:nbn:de:0221-20100317939 http://nbn-resolving.de/urn:nbn:de:0221-20100317939), the incidence of Lekuemia appears about 50% higher - but we don't know why. The classical radiation-dosis effect models do not explain what is observed. As there were no significant contamination accidents in Germany, there is some suspicion about the effects of low-dose radiation. Of course, the largest case of low-dose contamination in Western Europe and Germany was the Chernobyl accident from 1986. There have been some statistical large-scales studies which observed (small) changes in sex ratios (that is, the quotient of male and female offspring) https://archive.org/details/pubmed-PMC3765590/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/pubmed-PMC3765590/mode/2up . But still, these are only correlations. One train of thought has been that low-level radiation could effect the expression of genetic information. The field of study which looks at this is called epigenetics. It turns out that the working of the genetic "code" is surprisingly complex. It is not like a app package that gets installed on your PC, but it is rather a very complex self-modifying program which reacts to different environmental factors during installation. Now, there is some research of which factors could affect gene expression and how radation could play a role: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=epigenetic+ionising+radiation&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=epig... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378378215002169 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03783... This is by far not mainstream research, but the fact that we have no explanation for the correlation between incidence of leukemia and distance to nuclear plants points at that the classical models are missing something significant and we do not know yet the whole picture.
- soapdog 6y ago
  I remember seeing the Goiania accident on the news. I was seven years old. It was not scary for me back then as it is right now.
  - thiagocsf 6y ago
    I could have been a poster child for the "Eu amo Goiânia" campaign (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp8bq6kgCu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp8bq6kgCu8). I lived in Rio but had family in Goiânia and was visiting them when the accident happened. School was tough for a couple of weeks...
- jnxx 6y ago
  So, it seems to come from nuclear fission, likely of civilian origin, and perhaps originating from fuel elements: > The Netherland's public health agency said Friday it analysis of Nordic data showed that radionuclides had come "from the direction of Western Russia," indicating "damage to a fuel element in a nuclear power plant." > On Friday, the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization (CTBTO) tweeted that its sensors had detected "harmless" isotopes, identified as Caesium 137, Caesium 134, and Ruthenium 103, "very much probably of civilian origin." > > According to the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency based in Vienna, Western Europe has 108 reactors and Central and Eastern Europe 73 reactors. https://www.dw.com/en/slight-radioactivity-rise-in-nordic-countries/a-53968555 https://www.dw.com/en/slight-radioactivity-rise-in-nordic-co... The presence uf Ruthenium-103 indicates that these are fresh fission products because it has a half-life of only 39 days (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_ruthenium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_ruthenium). So, it is not impossible that it is a leak in a civil reactor.
- o-__-o 6y ago
  The Goiania accident sounds like the source of the plot for Pu-239
unnouinceput 6y ago
Quote: "We are able to indicate the likely region of the source..." Then tell us who. And since they didn't said it in the first place, I bet is mother Russia again.
- norenh 6y ago
  They do indicate the region, and it does include sweden, finland, large parts of baltics and certain areas in russia: https://mobile.twitter.com/SinaZerbo/status/1276559857731153921/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/SinaZerbo/status/1276559857731153... Had you included the full quote you would have known why they did not point out the exact location: "We are able to indicate the likely region of the source, but it’s outside the CTBTO’s mandate to identify the exact origin" If I interpret it correctly it means that they do not know the exact location and other organisations will now have to investigate it further to get the exact origin.
  - unnouinceput 6y ago
    The article itself lacks the region. As I don't have twitter I don't care about following links to it and furthermore, because of NoScript that I have, it didn't even appeared in the first place. In order to see the twitter link I had to temporarily allow it to see that as well. And including the entire quote would've made no difference on the region, but the origin. I differentiate between source region (Sweden, Norway, Finland, Russia as indicated in the twitter post) and origin (a nuclear plant, a mining operation etc - that's for me meaning origin of radionuclides).
  - ip26 6y ago
    If I interpret it correctly Sounds more like they are pretty sure where but aren't allowed to say.
    - beervirus 6y ago
      Yeah that wording was strange. If they don’t know, they should just say that.
theophrastus 6y ago
This couldn't be the leakage from that nuclear powered cruise missile 'test' lost by the Russians 2017-2018[1]? That is, is Barents sea too far from the Baltic for a couple of years of tides? [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/17766426/russia-nuclear-powered-cruise-missile-lost-barents-sea https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/17766426/russia-nuclear-p...
- joezydeco 6y ago
  The anomalous readings were airborne. Would that be possible from a missile lost at sea?
- eitland 6y ago
  If it was transmitted through the sea, then more or less (depending on where in the Barents) the whole Norwegian coast and then some is between the Barents sea and the Baltic. And the Norwegian coast is long. Really long. That said this seems to be airborne.
m3kw9 6y ago
Wouldn’t be surprised if nuclear fission waste is being dumped
- canada_dry 6y ago
  Hell, with all the regulatory rollbacks by the EPA [i] that might happen here soon enough. [i] https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation-in-the-trump-era/ https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation...
- catalogia 6y ago
  I would be surprised if they were doing that in the Baltic Ocean. Traditionally Russia has dumped their nuclear waste near Novaya Zemlya, into the Arctic Ocean.
Nodraak 6y ago
The original data seems to be available at [^1] but I dont see any spike around the 22-23 of June ... Let's wait to know more before saying anything stupid (looking at you Greenpeace) [^1] https://www.stuk.fi/aiheet/sateily-ymparistossa/sateilytilanne-tanaan https://www.stuk.fi/aiheet/sateily-ymparistossa/sateilytilan...
- syvanen 6y ago
  That system you linked only measures radiation. While the sensor in Sweden actually sample the air to detect certain isotopes. STUK does have this type of sensors also and did see these same type of isotopes in the air[1]. [1] Announcement in Finnish https://www.stuk.fi/-/helsingin-ilmassa-pienia-maaria-keinotekoisia-radioaktiivisia-aineita-viime-viikolla https://www.stuk.fi/-/helsingin-ilmassa-pienia-maaria-keinot...
mongol 6y ago
I saw this tweet a short while back. It does not add anything to the article but is an official source https://twitter.com/SSM_Nyheter/status/1275416038755139584 https://twitter.com/SSM_Nyheter/status/1275416038755139584
- guerrilla 6y ago
  Tack. Do they have a live map like Finland does [1]? [1]. https://www.stuk.fi/aiheet/sateily-ymparistossa/sateilytilanne-tanaan https://www.stuk.fi/aiheet/sateily-ymparistossa/sateilytilan...
  - mongol 6y ago
    Not that I am aware of. Kind of disappointed actually.
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      Yeah, same. I found a couple [1][2] of live maps but I'm not really sure how seriously to take them. Especially since they don't appear to show this spike. [1]. http://radioactiveathome.org/map/ http://radioactiveathome.org/map/ [2]. https://radmon.org/index.php https://radmon.org/index.php
  - alkonaut 6y ago
    The Leningrad plant looks suspicious given the pattern in southern Finland. And in that I case we'll never find out.
  - swebs 6y ago
    English Link https://www.stuk.fi/web/en/topics/environmental-radiation/radiation-today https://www.stuk.fi/web/en/topics/environmental-radiation/ra...
rurban 6y ago
So they know where the emission originated from, but they are not telling it?? Please. Are we still in the 80ies?
- user_50123890 6y ago
  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbdAa9qXQAYji-z?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbdAa9qXQAYji-z?format=jpg&name=... Spoiler: 99% chance it's from Russia.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    80% of that area covered is not in Russia btw.
    - user_50123890 6y ago
      ? Nuclear accidents don't come out of thin air, they are caused by humans, some countries/areas have higher risks of accidents, and most areas have zero risk. Russia is definitely a high risk area (if not THE high risk area), considering their soviet legacy of ancient nuclear power plants etc.
  - rurban 6y ago
    50/50 Either Tallin or St Petersburg. One of them is not in Russia, but both are Russian-style (ie Chernobyl) water pressure reactors. One of them leaked in a massive scale, but thanksfully only twice.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      Despite what the article may say, I think it's premature to rule out a naval reactor.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      I'd expect Estonia to have admitted it already if it was on their side. For Russia, my expectations are completely different.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sradman 6y ago
I understand the political reason for not naming the reactors/nation-states most likely responsible for the release but I don't understand the lack of context. Why wasn't short-lived iodine-131 detected along with the caesium-134, caesium-137 and ruthenium-103? How do the measured levels of the long-lived caesium/ruthenium isotopes compare to known events like Fukushima? How do these measured levels compare to known nuclear weapon tests? I'm worried about the geopolitical implications, not the global health implications.
- cowboysauce 6y ago
  The release likely happened during fuel reprocessing. Since fuel is left to cool for at least several months before reprocessing, there’s essentially no I-131 left at that point.
  - jnxx 6y ago
    But then, why would Ru-103 be present, which has a half-life of 9 days? https://www.dw.com/en/slight-radioactivity-rise-in-nordic-countries/a-53968555 https://www.dw.com/en/slight-radioactivity-rise-in-nordic-co...
    - cowboysauce 6y ago
      Ruthenium-103 has a half-life of 39 days.
  - sradman 6y ago
    How does the spent fuel get aerosolized and into the atmosphere? Some of the more recent comments link to a site that detected iodine-131 in Norway. Vented hydrogen/steam from partially uncovered fuel rods (e.g. Three Mile Island, Fukushima) in an active boiling water reactor is historically the most likely source (I think) but iodine-131 should be abundant. The same principle should apply to any nuclear powered submarine or ship. Other commenters point out that Russia has nuclear powered missiles and torpedoes that emit radiation. I expect the CTBTO to be able to categorize the nature of each radiation source but maybe that type of analysis takes time.
chiefalchemist 6y ago
Has this been verified / confirmed by a second or third sensors location? Wouldn't multiple locationns help pin point the possible source?
noja 6y ago
Nuclear energy is very safe, but to be safe it relies on the systems that support it. One of those systems is the economic system. I hope nothing bad has happened.
Nginx487 6y ago
Can't even guess, who's riding the horse with the naked torso could be responsible.
- rantwasp 6y ago
  that’s speculation. i could be a horse, it could be a bear, a moose, you name it
  - Nginx487 6y ago
    That's common sense. The only authoritarian state in the region refusing to share information for common security. In 2019 they already tried to hide radioactive leak on the nuclear test site [0] After the accident, people with the radioactive syndrome were admitted to a general hospital, alongside with children and pregnant women. Doctors were threatened by FSB not to disclose information about accident. Chernobyl did not teach them anything. [0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/12/security-brief-russia-weapon-nuclear-test-radiation-leaks-bolton-visits-london-yemen-saudi-coalition/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/12/security-brief-russia-w...
    - rantwasp 6y ago
      you need to take a chill pill. this was supposed to be a joke. (ie on the on the animal that was used as transport)
highenergystar 6y ago
Could this be from the test of the nuclear powered hypersonic missile that Russia is developing [0]? Those things aren't designed to 'land' no pun intended [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M730_Burevestnik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M730_Burevestnik
- catalogia 6y ago
  My first guess is their nuclear powered torpedo, 'Poseidon', aka STATUS-6, or Kanyon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status-6_Oceanic_Multipurpose_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status-6_Oceanic_Multipurpose_... I'd sooner expect it in the Arctic Ocean, but who knows. Edit: Some supporting evidence from twitter: https://twitter.com/FrankBottema/status/1276930424170844162 https://twitter.com/FrankBottema/status/1276930424170844162
albntomat0 6y ago
What's the base rate for this type of detection? Another commenter mentioned this is how Chernobyl was first reported, but I can't find anything on how often such things happen randomly without a catastrophic root cause.
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  I am quite disturbed to find that this is not a zero level base rate. I remember the "CIA Whole Earth" from Snow Crash. I always thought that Google Earth would be something like that - some cross between a weather station and wikipedia.
  - re 6y ago
    > the "CIA Whole Earth" from Snow Crash I was curious about this so here's some of the references I found (in the novel, it's "a piece of CIC software called, simply, Earth"). http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=843 http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=843 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash#Influence_on_the_World_Wide_Web_and_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash#Influence_on_the_Wo...
    - m4rtink 6y ago
      IIRC this was an (acknowledged!) inspiration for Google Earth.
  - serf 6y ago
    > I am quite disturbed to find that this is not a zero level base rate. speaking of disturbing factoids about radiation.. This is one of those nerdy cocktail topics I spout out about when i'm bored at a bar.[0] [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
    - booleandilemma 6y ago
      Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2321/ https://xkcd.com/2321/
godelski 6y ago
Since everyone is saying Russia, I just want to include a map of reactor locations. It may be Russia, but there are quite a few reactors in the area. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/%D0%90%D0%AD%D0%A1_%D0%95%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%8B.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/%D0%90%D...
- matthewdgreen 6y ago
  An unreported release of radionuclides from a Western European reactor would be much more surprising.
  - tobias3 6y ago
    Yeah, I was surprised that there are a handful of reactors of the same type as Chernobyl (RBMK-1000) still online. For example west of St. Petersburg ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Nuclear_Power_Plant )
    - wbl 6y ago
      They did substantial renovation to control the more interesting characteristics of the design. CANDU has an excellent safety record despite the same external moderation technique.
      - gdubs 6y ago
        “On the next episode of ‘This Old Reactor’...”
      - m4rtink 6y ago
        The power power/to cost radio of RBMK is still pretty good, as well other aspects (online refueling, isotope production, good scalability - there were plans for RBMK 2400 and RBMK 4800 etc.). If it just were not for the few desing flaws that make them unstable and dangerous in some situations.
  - 6y ago
rurban 6y ago
To those saying it's nothing: Lookup the historical data and compare. Chernobyl caused 0.1 mSv/h in radiation in Sweden, this incident caused 0.18 mSv/h in Helsinki. Only two short spikes over one week, Chernobyl was over two weeks, but certainly not harmless. These are deadly poisons. https://www.stralsakerhetsmyndigheten.se/contentassets/66f4f029351d4baea989543f24414795/198612-chernobyl---its-impact-on-sweden https://www.stralsakerhetsmyndigheten.se/contentassets/66f4f... It's either one of the old Chernobyl-like pressure water reactors in Tallin or St Petersburg. Really interesting is also why the control commission in Vienna is not allowed to call them out.
- ProblemFactory 6y ago
  > old Chernobyl-like pressure water reactors in Tallin or St Petersburg You must be confusing Tallinn with some other city - Estonia does not and has not had any nuclear power plants. The map covers Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Russia. Estonia and Latvia have no nuclear power or weapons programs, and the first four are EU countries where staying silent about an incident would be very unlikely. That leaves Russia. Interestingly enough the possible source area includes the Arkhangelsk naval base, where the Russian nuclear submarine fleet is stationed. An incident there may explain the lack of information.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    I think Arkhangelsk being involved seems likely. The Russian ship "Akademik Aleksandrov" aka Project 20183 was apparently in that area recently[1], and seems obviously related to Poseidon[2]. If the source of the radiation were a Poseidon, that would certainly explain the secrecy. As for claims of the fission products coming from a "civil source", I don't think enough is known about Poseidon's reactors to rule that out. I could be wrong, but as far as I've read the details of that reactor are up in the air (besides being small, obviously.) [1] https://twitter.com/FrankBottema/status/1276930424170844162 https://twitter.com/FrankBottema/status/1276930424170844162 [2] http://www.hisutton.com/Akademik-Aleksandrov.html http://www.hisutton.com/Akademik-Aleksandrov.html
  - jononor 6y ago
GekkePrutser 6y ago
I wonder where this is from. First thought was Fukushima. As they say it's from a civil nature. It's very far from the Baltic though. Wouldn't really be possible. Or one of the many nuclear subs that have sank perhaps? I believe most ship reactors are quite similar in design to civil power plants, just much smaller.
Mugwort 6y ago
Do you think it might be related to this event? (linked below ) I'm going to make a guess, that there might have been a nuclear detonation. It probably wasn't a test. This seems to be an accident. Not all weapons are accounted for, e.g. there a American hydrogen bombs lost in Spain (I know... it sounds crazy but look it up.). Could there have been a bomb laying around someone in a place everyone forgot existed maybe some forgotten relic from the Soviet day? A GLOBAL MAGNETIC ANOMALY: On June 23rd, Earth’s quiet magnetic field was unexpectedly disturbed by a wave of magnetism that rippled around much of the globe. There was no solar storm or geomagnetic storm to cause the disturbance. So what was it? https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/06/25/weird-out-of-nowhere-something-just-rocked-earths-magnetic-field/ https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/06/25/weird-out-of-nowhere-...
- sebastialonso 6y ago
  What the hell? Thanks for this, haven't seen anything about this anywhere.
  - qayxc 6y ago
    Maybe because only specialists even took note of this. The article itself states that it's more like "hearing a pin drop". If you look at the scales on the included diagrams, you might note that these "ripples" are on the order of a few nT. The natural variation of the magnetic field can be 2 orders of magnitude higher, so the real story here is that they were even able to pick this up in the first place...
    - qserasera 6y ago
      Cool, thanks.
- m4rtink 6y ago
  It basically impossible the lost bombs from old broken arows woild detonate i nuclear way (the conventional explosive might still explode and contaminate a small area). Even if you discount machinery still working after being embedded in the ground or unde water any neutron initiators or bateries would have lomg sonce became unusable.
aaron695 6y ago
Russia, damaged fuel rod. https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/radioactieve-stoffen-gedetecteerd-in-lucht-boven-noord-europa?_ga=2.21439288.204026084.1593171260-1689041124.1593171260 https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/radioactieve-stoffen-gedetecteerd... 21st century and the current top comment on HN is it's a random spike. Even though the article says it's not. This shouldn't be hard people.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  This doesn't say that it was a damaged fuel rod, only that that is a possibility and that it has been discovered to be the cause of similar readings previously.
  - aaron695 6y ago
    I'm not sure what more you want exactly? What are you suggesting it could be? You have the data from multiple agencies, what fits? I'm happy for alternatives, but multiple agencies say it's civilian and Russia. I want to leave this crazy, it's weapons and it's machine reading malfunctions threads. So given the data what are you saying it could be? This is why the comment section exists, to work towards to better understanding what is going on. Unless you are from Russia trying to sow doubt, you have to give a plausible alternative that fits the data. Saying it's possible it's something else is just sowing disinformation.
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      > I'm not sure what more you want exactly? What are you suggesting it could be? Nothing. I'm pointing out the agency did not phrase it as strongly as you did for people who can't or don't want to read the article. > This is why the comment section exists, to work towards to better understanding what is going on. Unless you are from Russia trying to sow doubt, you have to give a plausible alternative that fits the data. Saying it's possible it's something else is just sowing disinformation. I'm no expert and not capable of judging whether people commenting know what they're talking about or not. All I see from official sources is that experts are saying that a leak from Western Russia is a likely possibility. I can wait until more concrete information comes out to make a judgement.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
chronicsunshine 6y ago
Probable sources would be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Nuclear_Power_Plant or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Nuclear_Power_Plant Notably the second uses RBMK-1000 reactors, the same as used in Chernobyl.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  TASS says the operators of those claim that they are fine https://tass.com/world/1172279 https://tass.com/world/1172279
basicplus2 6y ago
"The composition of the nuclides may indicate damage to a fuel element in a nuclear power plant. RIVM has made calculations to find out what may have been the origin of the detected radionuclides. These calculations show that the radionuclides come from the direction of Western Russia." https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/radioactieve-stoffen-gedetecteerd-in-lucht-boven-noord-europa%3F_ga%3D2.21439288.204026084.1593171260-1689041124.1593171260&usg=ALkJrhh-TIF9k2nJoLZNi32MU-I5FaFOPg https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&...
vilius 6y ago
On the SE edge of the marked area Belarus is building a power plant. It is scheduled to go online July 2020 [1]. Can it be that fuel loading took place and somehow it got out and wind blew the particles towards east? (similar direction as in Chernobyl's case) Pure speculation, but I'm Lithuanian and I'm concerned about a foreign country building a power plant 45km from my capital. CTBTO not disclosing their guess about the source makes me think it's a sensitive geopolitical matter. I just hope nothing serious has happened, but you never know with 2020. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astravets_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astravets_Nuclear_Power_Plant
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Smooth-Weather 6y ago
Something weird is that from 21:50 the 24 of June, the weather captors in the area reported a temperature of 60°C. https://www.meteociel.fr/observations-meteo/temperatures.php?archive=1&heure=21&jour=24&mois=06&annee=2020&region=eur2 https://www.meteociel.fr/observations-meteo/temperatures.php...
- leighfuu 6y ago
  That is very weird. Would an asteroid impact or airburst release radiation?
- fearingreprisal 6y ago
  It might be due to a local wildfire. https://www.bbc.com/weather/features/53014423 https://www.bbc.com/weather/features/53014423
  - leighfuu 6y ago
    That seems much more likely
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
thiagocsf 6y ago
EDIT: apologies; I commented under the parent when I meant to do under this comment about the Goiânia accident: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23662601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23662601 My aunt still lives next door to the “Vigilância Sanitária” place where the material was quarantined. At the time I was spending school holidays with my cousins and, after a day out, we came home to find the whole street blocked. Naturally we drove around the block and managed to get to their condo - a unit out of a set of three buildings. We didn’t see any neighbours and it was only when we turned on the TV that we found out why. I guess the authorities forgot to block the entrance to the car park. So out we went again to get tested for radiation. Going back to school in Rio was fun. My friends were giving me all sorts of ribbing and some kids refused to sit next to me for a while.
PovilasID 6y ago
This is probably just leakage to due to mismanagement. Russian government may prioritize well being of population but nuclear accident would drop land price economy would suffer and people who have power would suffer from, so I hope self-interest and The lesson of all lessons make me hopeful that the rain outside my window not radioactive (in Lithuania not Russia but still in the path)

437 points by BerislavLopac 6y ago

Now, this is probably nothing. The sensors are doing their thing and from time to time there is a spike. On the other hand, this is how Chernobyl first was reported... For more radiation horror pease read about the ”Goiânia accident”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident (Learned about it recently and wow. What a story.)

jl6 6y ago
It's probably not a problem... probably... just a showing a small discrepancy. It's well within acceptable bounds. Seriously, I’d be interested in some stats on how various nuclear accidents have been disclosed/reported. Feels like a good litmus test of transparency.
- ixfo 6y ago
  Set anti-mass spectrometers to 105%.
highhedgehog 6y ago
I read about that story. it's incredible. love it (in a weird way I guess, but it was so fascinating)
Arech 6y ago
Wow.. Never heard of it before, thanks. That heavily reminds me the "Roadside Picnic" (1972) novel of Strugatsky brothers (that same novel, that coined term "Stalker"). The only difference that the heroes of the novel dealt with consequences of alien civilization visit, and ”Goiânia accident” is purely our's own...
- fnord123 6y ago
  Roadside picnic didn't coin the term stalker. Stalker is a Soviet film based on the book.
  - krick 6y ago
    Yes it did. "Stalker" is the name of their profession in the book.
    - fnord123 6y ago
      The word "stalker" comes from the 1500s. Deer stalking is a profession that existed in the 1800s. Roadside Picnic came out in 1971. Maybe you mean Roadside Picnic introduced the English word "stalker" to the Russian language? It certainly didn't coin the term (create a new word).
      - zxcmx 6y ago
        It coined the use of "stalker" to refer to a specific sort of post-apocalyptic profession, someone who is adept at navigating the waste left by some disaster or "forbidden" places. Dangers might be physical, radiological, or metaphysical. In modern usage it has made its way into books and video games, and people who do tours of Chernobyl have been known to refer to themseves as such.
      - krick 6y ago
        "Roadside Picnic" is a Russian book. The word "stalker" wasn't used in Russian language at all before it. Hence, it coined the term. The rest is demagogy.
        fnord123 6y ago
        That's not what coining a word means.
  - ehnto 6y ago
    I'm not a huge film buff or anything, but I did watch Stalker. The music and cinematography was captivating in a way I rarely get in anything but video games or books. Usually movies don't capture me that way, they're far too fast, literal and descriptive. Stalker left so much to the imagination that I was constantly engaged in trying to figure out what they were thinking, where they were going, and what it was they expected to find. It gave me all the time I needed to think about it too.
mcguire 6y ago
Or the Church Rock incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Rock_uranium_mill_spill?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Rock_uranium_mill_spill...
- hirsin 6y ago
  Thank you for this. It's my first time learning about it. I'm almost happy it's unknown since this is such a better argument against nuclear power than 3 Mile etc. Although I suppose for it to be an effective scare tactic you'd have to ask yourself some tricky questions about how much you value indigenous lives over corporations...
  - grogenaut 6y ago
    Take a look at the hanford site if you want to be scared. And look at where it is, note that's the Columbia river, which rolls right through northern portland. Or if you don't care about people, it also powers most of the data centers in the northwest. And is right near where most of the hops are grown (won't someone think of the beer!). https://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/AboutHanfordCleanup https://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/AboutHanfordCleanup https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hanford+Site/@46.5656811,-119.5142379,40189m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x54985a3722b17805:0x350eb8746e4035a7!8m2!3d46.5506839!4d-119.4889741 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hanford+Site/@46.5656811,-... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Portland+International+Airport/@45.6001755,-122.6302165,26336m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x54985a3722b17805:0x350eb8746e4035a7!2sHanford+Site!8m2!3d46.5506839!4d-119.4889741!3m4!1s0x5495a0aa74dc20d1:0x5bda7693380e5c3d!8m2!3d45.589777!4d-122.5950623 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Portland+International+Air...
    - mcchew 6y ago
      That area also has lots of Bitcoin mining operations. All of society is at risk over here.
      - grogenaut 6y ago
        Definitly, the world would be much worse off without the blockchain!
shrimp_emoji 6y ago
Well There's Your Problem did an episode on that: https://youtu.be/34rdxDgpaaA https://youtu.be/34rdxDgpaaA
- andbberger 6y ago
  Should probably add a disclaimer for people who expect a dry engineering history podcast! wtypp is truly excellent, but go in expecting irreverence
kens 6y ago
My favorite radioactive contamination story is the truck in Juarez that was unknowingly contaminated with Cobalt-60 pellets. The truck died (for unrelated reason) and was scrapped and melted down in an iron foundry. The contamination was only discovered by accident when a truckload of rebar made a wrong turn in Los Alamos National Laboratories and set off a radiation alarm. They managed to track down the truck, find the source of the radiation, and get rid of the contaminated metal. Fortunately, nobody died. https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/accidents/juarez.htm https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/accidents/juarez.htm
- qbaqbaqba 6y ago
  I live near an aluminum foundry and everything going in goes through a radiation detector.
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    Same with waste incineration plants, for the same resons - apparently it is sensitive enough to detect even diapers with radio contrast therapy residue inside a full garbage truck.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      Some airports got these post-911. They were called "granny detectors" because rather than finding dirty bombs they always found the old person who just underwent a scan using radioactive tracer. They reality is that many medical procedures irradiate patients. Many dead bodies, if they were not human, would be radioactive enough to be considered hazardous.
      - scruple 6y ago
        > Many dead bodies, if they were not human, would be radioactive enough to be considered hazardous. I'm curious, can they be (safely) cremated?
        6y ago
georgecmu 6y ago
Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accide... In 1989, a small capsule containing highly radioactive caesium-137 was found inside the concrete wall of an apartment building, with a surface gamma radiation exposure dose rate of 1800 R/year. The source, originally a part of a radiation level gauge, was lost in the Karansky quarry. The gravel from the quarry was used in construction. The cesium capsule ended up in the concrete panel of Apartment 85 of Building 7 on Gvardeytsev Kantemirovtsev Street, between apartments 85 and 52. Over 9 years, two families lived in Apartment 85. A child's bed was located directly next to the wall containing the capsule. By the time the capsule was discovered, 4 residents of the building had died from leukemia and 17 more had received varying doses of radiation. The accident was detected only after the residents requested that the level of radiation be measured in the apartment by a health physicist. Part of the wall was removed and sent to the Institute for Nuclear Research (NASU), where the cesium capsule was removed and disposed of. The total number of deaths is alternately reported as 2, 4 (3 children and one adult), or 6 (4 children and 2 adults).
- fsflover 6y ago
  Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core
  - WhiteSage 6y ago
    Or this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acerinox_accident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acerinox_accident In May 1998, a caesium-137 source managed to pass through the monitoring equipment in an Acerinox scrap metal reprocessing plant in Los Barrios, Spain. When melted, the caesium-137 caused the release of a radioactive cloud. The Acerinox chimney detectors failed to detect it, but it was eventually detected in France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany and Austria. The radioactive levels measured were up to 1000 times higher than normal.
    - trenchgun 6y ago
      How harmful is 1000 times higher than normal?
pizza234 6y ago
I find something in this story puzzling - why were the IGR owners charged? Based on the story as published on Wikipedia, they tried to recover the unit, but they were officially barred to do so.
- worewood 6y ago
  When faced with tragedy some people need to know "who was guilty", so this leads to lots of lawsuits like this. Lack of education led to the trespassing of property, zero knowledge of radiation to believing it was supernatural, the justice system preventing the cleanup, etc. Means there is no single point of guilt and its hard for people to grasp this.
- pierrec 6y ago
  That part of the article is poorly phrased and leaves out some important information on the judgement. There's a link to an issue of Nuclear Law Bulletin that provides better detail. The biggest charges were ordered to be paid by CNEN (since preventing this kind of accident is part of their job, and they were notified of the potential danger well in advance) and IPASGO (the new owners of the site, who were also aware of the danger and didn't really do anything about it). Finally as you say, two people from IGR (the clinic that moved out) were also charged, because they removed "gates, windows, timberwork and the roof" from the facility while leaving the radioactive device for later - which might also explain why the new owners eventually got pissed and decided to lock them out. In short the whole thing was a collective train wreck, but the most obvious failure seems to be that CNEN should have taken action immediately after being notified of the danger. Hopefully they're a bit more reactive now. https://web.archive.org/web/20120318233148/http://www.oecd-nea.org/law/nlb/Nlb-66/023-032.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20120318233148/http://www.oecd-n...
ojbyrne 6y ago
Another: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire
biggestdecision 6y ago
For anyone else interested in the topic of radiological accidents, check out the reports published by the IAEA. https://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub815_web.pdf https://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub815_web.pd... Curiously like in the series Chernobyl, the first person to take radiation measurements at the scene in Goiania thought his equipment was faulty, because it measured at the maximum of the scale.
saulrh 6y ago
> For more radiation horror I'll skip, thanks. I already get enough horror stories and don't need wacky outliers leaning on my brain's various failure modes. Like, it took me less than ten seconds to find a news article from last month in a specific city titled "family of 5 killed in car crash". I can't spend my anxiety on things that are so much less dangerous than anything else I do in a given day.
xg15 6y ago
> *Now, this is probably nothing. The sensors are doing their thing and from time to time there is a spike. I can't imagine that the engineers at that monitoring station wouldn't check for measuring errors before releasing such a statement.
jnxx 6y ago
These sensors can be incredibly sensitive and can capture contamination from small technical or medical radiation sources over a long distance. What is much more of a mystery is how little we understand about the effects of low-dose radiation. In Germany, there was a study started after since 1990 a cluster of leukemia cases appeared around a specific power plant near Hamburg. So, a large statistical study was done about the incidence of leukemia in all of Germany, and whether there is a correlation with distance to power plants. There was a correlation found (http://nbn-resolving.de/urn:nbn:de:0221-20100317939 http://nbn-resolving.de/urn:nbn:de:0221-20100317939), the incidence of Lekuemia appears about 50% higher - but we don't know why. The classical radiation-dosis effect models do not explain what is observed. As there were no significant contamination accidents in Germany, there is some suspicion about the effects of low-dose radiation. Of course, the largest case of low-dose contamination in Western Europe and Germany was the Chernobyl accident from 1986. There have been some statistical large-scales studies which observed (small) changes in sex ratios (that is, the quotient of male and female offspring) https://archive.org/details/pubmed-PMC3765590/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/pubmed-PMC3765590/mode/2up . But still, these are only correlations. One train of thought has been that low-level radiation could effect the expression of genetic information. The field of study which looks at this is called epigenetics. It turns out that the working of the genetic "code" is surprisingly complex. It is not like a app package that gets installed on your PC, but it is rather a very complex self-modifying program which reacts to different environmental factors during installation. Now, there is some research of which factors could affect gene expression and how radation could play a role: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=epigenetic+ionising+radiation&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=epig... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378378215002169 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03783... This is by far not mainstream research, but the fact that we have no explanation for the correlation between incidence of leukemia and distance to nuclear plants points at that the classical models are missing something significant and we do not know yet the whole picture.
soapdog 6y ago
I remember seeing the Goiania accident on the news. I was seven years old. It was not scary for me back then as it is right now.
- thiagocsf 6y ago
  I could have been a poster child for the "Eu amo Goiânia" campaign (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp8bq6kgCu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp8bq6kgCu8). I lived in Rio but had family in Goiânia and was visiting them when the accident happened. School was tough for a couple of weeks...
jnxx 6y ago
So, it seems to come from nuclear fission, likely of civilian origin, and perhaps originating from fuel elements: > The Netherland's public health agency said Friday it analysis of Nordic data showed that radionuclides had come "from the direction of Western Russia," indicating "damage to a fuel element in a nuclear power plant." > On Friday, the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization (CTBTO) tweeted that its sensors had detected "harmless" isotopes, identified as Caesium 137, Caesium 134, and Ruthenium 103, "very much probably of civilian origin." > > According to the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency based in Vienna, Western Europe has 108 reactors and Central and Eastern Europe 73 reactors. https://www.dw.com/en/slight-radioactivity-rise-in-nordic-countries/a-53968555 https://www.dw.com/en/slight-radioactivity-rise-in-nordic-co... The presence uf Ruthenium-103 indicates that these are fresh fission products because it has a half-life of only 39 days (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_ruthenium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_ruthenium). So, it is not impossible that it is a leak in a civil reactor.
o-__-o 6y ago
The Goiania accident sounds like the source of the plot for Pu-239

unnouinceput 6y ago

Quote: "We are able to indicate the likely region of the source..." Then tell us who. And since they didn't said it in the first place, I bet is mother Russia again.

norenh 6y ago
They do indicate the region, and it does include sweden, finland, large parts of baltics and certain areas in russia: https://mobile.twitter.com/SinaZerbo/status/1276559857731153921/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/SinaZerbo/status/1276559857731153... Had you included the full quote you would have known why they did not point out the exact location: "We are able to indicate the likely region of the source, but it’s outside the CTBTO’s mandate to identify the exact origin" If I interpret it correctly it means that they do not know the exact location and other organisations will now have to investigate it further to get the exact origin.
- unnouinceput 6y ago
  The article itself lacks the region. As I don't have twitter I don't care about following links to it and furthermore, because of NoScript that I have, it didn't even appeared in the first place. In order to see the twitter link I had to temporarily allow it to see that as well. And including the entire quote would've made no difference on the region, but the origin. I differentiate between source region (Sweden, Norway, Finland, Russia as indicated in the twitter post) and origin (a nuclear plant, a mining operation etc - that's for me meaning origin of radionuclides).
- ip26 6y ago
  If I interpret it correctly Sounds more like they are pretty sure where but aren't allowed to say.
  - beervirus 6y ago
    Yeah that wording was strange. If they don’t know, they should just say that.

theophrastus 6y ago

This couldn't be the leakage from that nuclear powered cruise missile 'test' lost by the Russians 2017-2018[1]? That is, is Barents sea too far from the Baltic for a couple of years of tides? [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/17766426/russia-nuclear-powered-cruise-missile-lost-barents-sea https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/17766426/russia-nuclear-p...

joezydeco 6y ago
The anomalous readings were airborne. Would that be possible from a missile lost at sea?
eitland 6y ago
If it was transmitted through the sea, then more or less (depending on where in the Barents) the whole Norwegian coast and then some is between the Barents sea and the Baltic. And the Norwegian coast is long. Really long. That said this seems to be airborne.

m3kw9 6y ago

Wouldn’t be surprised if nuclear fission waste is being dumped

canada_dry 6y ago
Hell, with all the regulatory rollbacks by the EPA [i] that might happen here soon enough. [i] https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation-in-the-trump-era/ https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation...
catalogia 6y ago
I would be surprised if they were doing that in the Baltic Ocean. Traditionally Russia has dumped their nuclear waste near Novaya Zemlya, into the Arctic Ocean.

Nodraak 6y ago

The original data seems to be available at [^1] but I dont see any spike around the 22-23 of June ... Let's wait to know more before saying anything stupid (looking at you Greenpeace) [^1] https://www.stuk.fi/aiheet/sateily-ymparistossa/sateilytilanne-tanaan https://www.stuk.fi/aiheet/sateily-ymparistossa/sateilytilan...

syvanen 6y ago
That system you linked only measures radiation. While the sensor in Sweden actually sample the air to detect certain isotopes. STUK does have this type of sensors also and did see these same type of isotopes in the air[1]. [1] Announcement in Finnish https://www.stuk.fi/-/helsingin-ilmassa-pienia-maaria-keinotekoisia-radioaktiivisia-aineita-viime-viikolla https://www.stuk.fi/-/helsingin-ilmassa-pienia-maaria-keinot...

mongol 6y ago

I saw this tweet a short while back. It does not add anything to the article but is an official source https://twitter.com/SSM_Nyheter/status/1275416038755139584 https://twitter.com/SSM_Nyheter/status/1275416038755139584

guerrilla 6y ago
Tack. Do they have a live map like Finland does [1]? [1]. https://www.stuk.fi/aiheet/sateily-ymparistossa/sateilytilanne-tanaan https://www.stuk.fi/aiheet/sateily-ymparistossa/sateilytilan...
- mongol 6y ago
  Not that I am aware of. Kind of disappointed actually.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    Yeah, same. I found a couple [1][2] of live maps but I'm not really sure how seriously to take them. Especially since they don't appear to show this spike. [1]. http://radioactiveathome.org/map/ http://radioactiveathome.org/map/ [2]. https://radmon.org/index.php https://radmon.org/index.php
- alkonaut 6y ago
  The Leningrad plant looks suspicious given the pattern in southern Finland. And in that I case we'll never find out.
- swebs 6y ago
  English Link https://www.stuk.fi/web/en/topics/environmental-radiation/radiation-today https://www.stuk.fi/web/en/topics/environmental-radiation/ra...

rurban 6y ago

So they know where the emission originated from, but they are not telling it?? Please. Are we still in the 80ies?

user_50123890 6y ago
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbdAa9qXQAYji-z?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbdAa9qXQAYji-z?format=jpg&name=... Spoiler: 99% chance it's from Russia.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  80% of that area covered is not in Russia btw.
  - user_50123890 6y ago
    ? Nuclear accidents don't come out of thin air, they are caused by humans, some countries/areas have higher risks of accidents, and most areas have zero risk. Russia is definitely a high risk area (if not THE high risk area), considering their soviet legacy of ancient nuclear power plants etc.
- rurban 6y ago
  50/50 Either Tallin or St Petersburg. One of them is not in Russia, but both are Russian-style (ie Chernobyl) water pressure reactors. One of them leaked in a massive scale, but thanksfully only twice.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Despite what the article may say, I think it's premature to rule out a naval reactor.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    I'd expect Estonia to have admitted it already if it was on their side. For Russia, my expectations are completely different.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

sradman 6y ago

I understand the political reason for not naming the reactors/nation-states most likely responsible for the release but I don't understand the lack of context. Why wasn't short-lived iodine-131 detected along with the caesium-134, caesium-137 and ruthenium-103? How do the measured levels of the long-lived caesium/ruthenium isotopes compare to known events like Fukushima? How do these measured levels compare to known nuclear weapon tests? I'm worried about the geopolitical implications, not the global health implications.

cowboysauce 6y ago
The release likely happened during fuel reprocessing. Since fuel is left to cool for at least several months before reprocessing, there’s essentially no I-131 left at that point.
- jnxx 6y ago
  But then, why would Ru-103 be present, which has a half-life of 9 days? https://www.dw.com/en/slight-radioactivity-rise-in-nordic-countries/a-53968555 https://www.dw.com/en/slight-radioactivity-rise-in-nordic-co...
  - cowboysauce 6y ago
    Ruthenium-103 has a half-life of 39 days.
- sradman 6y ago
  How does the spent fuel get aerosolized and into the atmosphere? Some of the more recent comments link to a site that detected iodine-131 in Norway. Vented hydrogen/steam from partially uncovered fuel rods (e.g. Three Mile Island, Fukushima) in an active boiling water reactor is historically the most likely source (I think) but iodine-131 should be abundant. The same principle should apply to any nuclear powered submarine or ship. Other commenters point out that Russia has nuclear powered missiles and torpedoes that emit radiation. I expect the CTBTO to be able to categorize the nature of each radiation source but maybe that type of analysis takes time.

chiefalchemist 6y ago

Has this been verified / confirmed by a second or third sensors location? Wouldn't multiple locationns help pin point the possible source?

noja 6y ago

Nuclear energy is very safe, but to be safe it relies on the systems that support it. One of those systems is the economic system. I hope nothing bad has happened.

Nginx487 6y ago

Can't even guess, who's riding the horse with the naked torso could be responsible.

rantwasp 6y ago
that’s speculation. i could be a horse, it could be a bear, a moose, you name it
- Nginx487 6y ago
  That's common sense. The only authoritarian state in the region refusing to share information for common security. In 2019 they already tried to hide radioactive leak on the nuclear test site [0] After the accident, people with the radioactive syndrome were admitted to a general hospital, alongside with children and pregnant women. Doctors were threatened by FSB not to disclose information about accident. Chernobyl did not teach them anything. [0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/12/security-brief-russia-weapon-nuclear-test-radiation-leaks-bolton-visits-london-yemen-saudi-coalition/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/12/security-brief-russia-w...
  - rantwasp 6y ago
    you need to take a chill pill. this was supposed to be a joke. (ie on the on the animal that was used as transport)

highenergystar 6y ago

Could this be from the test of the nuclear powered hypersonic missile that Russia is developing [0]? Those things aren't designed to 'land' no pun intended [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M730_Burevestnik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M730_Burevestnik

catalogia 6y ago
My first guess is their nuclear powered torpedo, 'Poseidon', aka STATUS-6, or Kanyon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status-6_Oceanic_Multipurpose_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status-6_Oceanic_Multipurpose_... I'd sooner expect it in the Arctic Ocean, but who knows. Edit: Some supporting evidence from twitter: https://twitter.com/FrankBottema/status/1276930424170844162 https://twitter.com/FrankBottema/status/1276930424170844162

albntomat0 6y ago

What's the base rate for this type of detection? Another commenter mentioned this is how Chernobyl was first reported, but I can't find anything on how often such things happen randomly without a catastrophic root cause.

lifeisstillgood 6y ago
I am quite disturbed to find that this is not a zero level base rate. I remember the "CIA Whole Earth" from Snow Crash. I always thought that Google Earth would be something like that - some cross between a weather station and wikipedia.
- re 6y ago
  > the "CIA Whole Earth" from Snow Crash I was curious about this so here's some of the references I found (in the novel, it's "a piece of CIC software called, simply, Earth"). http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=843 http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=843 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash#Influence_on_the_World_Wide_Web_and_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash#Influence_on_the_Wo...
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    IIRC this was an (acknowledged!) inspiration for Google Earth.
- serf 6y ago
  > I am quite disturbed to find that this is not a zero level base rate. speaking of disturbing factoids about radiation.. This is one of those nerdy cocktail topics I spout out about when i'm bored at a bar.[0] [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
  - booleandilemma 6y ago
    Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2321/ https://xkcd.com/2321/

godelski 6y ago

Since everyone is saying Russia, I just want to include a map of reactor locations. It may be Russia, but there are quite a few reactors in the area. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/%D0%90%D0%AD%D0%A1_%D0%95%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%8B.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/%D0%90%D...

matthewdgreen 6y ago
An unreported release of radionuclides from a Western European reactor would be much more surprising.
- tobias3 6y ago
  Yeah, I was surprised that there are a handful of reactors of the same type as Chernobyl (RBMK-1000) still online. For example west of St. Petersburg ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Nuclear_Power_Plant )
  - wbl 6y ago
    They did substantial renovation to control the more interesting characteristics of the design. CANDU has an excellent safety record despite the same external moderation technique.
    - gdubs 6y ago
      “On the next episode of ‘This Old Reactor’...”
    - m4rtink 6y ago
      The power power/to cost radio of RBMK is still pretty good, as well other aspects (online refueling, isotope production, good scalability - there were plans for RBMK 2400 and RBMK 4800 etc.). If it just were not for the few desing flaws that make them unstable and dangerous in some situations.
- 6y ago

rurban 6y ago

To those saying it's nothing: Lookup the historical data and compare. Chernobyl caused 0.1 mSv/h in radiation in Sweden, this incident caused 0.18 mSv/h in Helsinki. Only two short spikes over one week, Chernobyl was over two weeks, but certainly not harmless. These are deadly poisons. https://www.stralsakerhetsmyndigheten.se/contentassets/66f4f029351d4baea989543f24414795/198612-chernobyl---its-impact-on-sweden https://www.stralsakerhetsmyndigheten.se/contentassets/66f4f... It's either one of the old Chernobyl-like pressure water reactors in Tallin or St Petersburg. Really interesting is also why the control commission in Vienna is not allowed to call them out.

ProblemFactory 6y ago
> old Chernobyl-like pressure water reactors in Tallin or St Petersburg You must be confusing Tallinn with some other city - Estonia does not and has not had any nuclear power plants. The map covers Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Russia. Estonia and Latvia have no nuclear power or weapons programs, and the first four are EU countries where staying silent about an incident would be very unlikely. That leaves Russia. Interestingly enough the possible source area includes the Arkhangelsk naval base, where the Russian nuclear submarine fleet is stationed. An incident there may explain the lack of information.
- catalogia 6y ago
  I think Arkhangelsk being involved seems likely. The Russian ship "Akademik Aleksandrov" aka Project 20183 was apparently in that area recently[1], and seems obviously related to Poseidon[2]. If the source of the radiation were a Poseidon, that would certainly explain the secrecy. As for claims of the fission products coming from a "civil source", I don't think enough is known about Poseidon's reactors to rule that out. I could be wrong, but as far as I've read the details of that reactor are up in the air (besides being small, obviously.) [1] https://twitter.com/FrankBottema/status/1276930424170844162 https://twitter.com/FrankBottema/status/1276930424170844162 [2] http://www.hisutton.com/Akademik-Aleksandrov.html http://www.hisutton.com/Akademik-Aleksandrov.html
- jononor 6y ago

GekkePrutser 6y ago

I wonder where this is from. First thought was Fukushima. As they say it's from a civil nature. It's very far from the Baltic though. Wouldn't really be possible. Or one of the many nuclear subs that have sank perhaps? I believe most ship reactors are quite similar in design to civil power plants, just much smaller.

Mugwort 6y ago

Do you think it might be related to this event? (linked below ) I'm going to make a guess, that there might have been a nuclear detonation. It probably wasn't a test. This seems to be an accident. Not all weapons are accounted for, e.g. there a American hydrogen bombs lost in Spain (I know... it sounds crazy but look it up.). Could there have been a bomb laying around someone in a place everyone forgot existed maybe some forgotten relic from the Soviet day? A GLOBAL MAGNETIC ANOMALY: On June 23rd, Earth’s quiet magnetic field was unexpectedly disturbed by a wave of magnetism that rippled around much of the globe. There was no solar storm or geomagnetic storm to cause the disturbance. So what was it? https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/06/25/weird-out-of-nowhere-something-just-rocked-earths-magnetic-field/ https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/06/25/weird-out-of-nowhere-...

sebastialonso 6y ago
What the hell? Thanks for this, haven't seen anything about this anywhere.
- qayxc 6y ago
  Maybe because only specialists even took note of this. The article itself states that it's more like "hearing a pin drop". If you look at the scales on the included diagrams, you might note that these "ripples" are on the order of a few nT. The natural variation of the magnetic field can be 2 orders of magnitude higher, so the real story here is that they were even able to pick this up in the first place...
  - qserasera 6y ago
    Cool, thanks.
m4rtink 6y ago
It basically impossible the lost bombs from old broken arows woild detonate i nuclear way (the conventional explosive might still explode and contaminate a small area). Even if you discount machinery still working after being embedded in the ground or unde water any neutron initiators or bateries would have lomg sonce became unusable.

aaron695 6y ago

Russia, damaged fuel rod. https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/radioactieve-stoffen-gedetecteerd-in-lucht-boven-noord-europa?_ga=2.21439288.204026084.1593171260-1689041124.1593171260 https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/radioactieve-stoffen-gedetecteerd... 21st century and the current top comment on HN is it's a random spike. Even though the article says it's not. This shouldn't be hard people.

guerrilla 6y ago
This doesn't say that it was a damaged fuel rod, only that that is a possibility and that it has been discovered to be the cause of similar readings previously.
- aaron695 6y ago
  I'm not sure what more you want exactly? What are you suggesting it could be? You have the data from multiple agencies, what fits? I'm happy for alternatives, but multiple agencies say it's civilian and Russia. I want to leave this crazy, it's weapons and it's machine reading malfunctions threads. So given the data what are you saying it could be? This is why the comment section exists, to work towards to better understanding what is going on. Unless you are from Russia trying to sow doubt, you have to give a plausible alternative that fits the data. Saying it's possible it's something else is just sowing disinformation.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    > I'm not sure what more you want exactly? What are you suggesting it could be? Nothing. I'm pointing out the agency did not phrase it as strongly as you did for people who can't or don't want to read the article. > This is why the comment section exists, to work towards to better understanding what is going on. Unless you are from Russia trying to sow doubt, you have to give a plausible alternative that fits the data. Saying it's possible it's something else is just sowing disinformation. I'm no expert and not capable of judging whether people commenting know what they're talking about or not. All I see from official sources is that experts are saying that a leak from Western Russia is a likely possibility. I can wait until more concrete information comes out to make a judgement.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

chronicsunshine 6y ago

Probable sources would be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Nuclear_Power_Plant or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Nuclear_Power_Plant Notably the second uses RBMK-1000 reactors, the same as used in Chernobyl.

guerrilla 6y ago
TASS says the operators of those claim that they are fine https://tass.com/world/1172279 https://tass.com/world/1172279

basicplus2 6y ago

"The composition of the nuclides may indicate damage to a fuel element in a nuclear power plant. RIVM has made calculations to find out what may have been the origin of the detected radionuclides. These calculations show that the radionuclides come from the direction of Western Russia." https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/radioactieve-stoffen-gedetecteerd-in-lucht-boven-noord-europa%3F_ga%3D2.21439288.204026084.1593171260-1689041124.1593171260&usg=ALkJrhh-TIF9k2nJoLZNi32MU-I5FaFOPg https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&...

vilius 6y ago

On the SE edge of the marked area Belarus is building a power plant. It is scheduled to go online July 2020 [1]. Can it be that fuel loading took place and somehow it got out and wind blew the particles towards east? (similar direction as in Chernobyl's case) Pure speculation, but I'm Lithuanian and I'm concerned about a foreign country building a power plant 45km from my capital. CTBTO not disclosing their guess about the source makes me think it's a sensitive geopolitical matter. I just hope nothing serious has happened, but you never know with 2020. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astravets_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astravets_Nuclear_Power_Plant

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Smooth-Weather 6y ago

Something weird is that from 21:50 the 24 of June, the weather captors in the area reported a temperature of 60°C. https://www.meteociel.fr/observations-meteo/temperatures.php?archive=1&heure=21&jour=24&mois=06&annee=2020&region=eur2 https://www.meteociel.fr/observations-meteo/temperatures.php...

leighfuu 6y ago
That is very weird. Would an asteroid impact or airburst release radiation?
fearingreprisal 6y ago
It might be due to a local wildfire. https://www.bbc.com/weather/features/53014423 https://www.bbc.com/weather/features/53014423
- leighfuu 6y ago
  That seems much more likely

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

thiagocsf 6y ago

EDIT: apologies; I commented under the parent when I meant to do under this comment about the Goiânia accident: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23662601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23662601 My aunt still lives next door to the “Vigilância Sanitária” place where the material was quarantined. At the time I was spending school holidays with my cousins and, after a day out, we came home to find the whole street blocked. Naturally we drove around the block and managed to get to their condo - a unit out of a set of three buildings. We didn’t see any neighbours and it was only when we turned on the TV that we found out why. I guess the authorities forgot to block the entrance to the car park. So out we went again to get tested for radiation. Going back to school in Rio was fun. My friends were giving me all sorts of ribbing and some kids refused to sit next to me for a while.

PovilasID 6y ago

This is probably just leakage to due to mismanagement. Russian government may prioritize well being of population but nuclear accident would drop land price economy would suffer and people who have power would suffer from, so I hope self-interest and The lesson of all lessons make me hopeful that the rain outside my window not radioactive (in Lithuania not Russia but still in the path)