6 ms·

> Seriously, how about just giving control to users? Have you been living in a cave since 1999? Computing isn't about empowering people anymore, it's about ext

> Seriously, how about just giving control to users? Have you been living in a cave since 1999? Computing isn't about empowering people anymore, it's about extracting money and data (read: more money!) from them!

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
I'm going to try and be not cynical for a second - in 1999 computing truly empowered a small group of enthusiasts. Yes, lots of people had access to computers, but for many it was a word processor with slow internet, and a ton of vulnerabilities and viruses. Now many many more have been empowered, but at a cost of less peak power.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  I'd argue that they aren't really empowered. I don't feel empowered by my phone because everything is under someone else's control. I am only permitted to use applications as long as they don't want root access to the device. That trend is becoming more and more pervasive in other aspects of computing too.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    I get that - we've lost control of the device, but we now have ubiquitous access to computing - reliable, (relatively) safe access to the internet everywhere for nearly everyone. That wasn't a thing 20 years ago - computers were more arcane and required expertise to maintain. I totally understand we've lost access to the devices, I'm just arguing that there's an other side to this whole thing.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      > I get that - we've lost control of the device, but we now have ubiquitous access to computing - reliable, (relatively) safe access to the internet everywhere for nearly everyone. Debatable. What makes computing so much more interesting than other tools is the ability to program them, to make the tool what you need it to be for what you want to do. 80s computer systems got this: they booted into a programming environment. 90s computer systems got this: they gave us HyperCard, VB, Delphi, etc and productivity software like Excel (which I contend is still the most widely used programming environment on earth) became programmable and extendable too. Turning first time computer users into programmers was a goal because that's what computers were for! We don't really have computers like that anymore. What we have are appliances. Sure, they have a lot of add-on modules, but you're not encouraged to program them, to adapt them to your needs, you're encouraged to buy that from somebody else with money and/or turning over data. A lot of those "tools" seek to addict you to their usage so you can be peppered with advertisements. You're consuming, not computing.
      - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
        We have different definitions of computing - For me computing is the ability to perform work and get information on a computer, which I think is a lot better these days. Not everyone cares to be a programmer, and to put computers behind that wall serves to stop people from accessing them. That feels kind of like gate-keeping, especially as the modern internet is so incredibly complicated that casual dabbling isn't really good enough to get things done - where in this case "getting things done" is pulling information from web pages, paying bills, emails, etc. It can be a hobby, absolutely, but one that you need to be dedicated to, and as such, not for most people.
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
        > Not everyone cares to be a programmer, and to put computers behind that wall serves to stop people from accessing them. You misunderstand. I don't lament the existence of appliances, I lament that the hijacking of "computer" to mean "appliance" has lead to a lack of progress in computing environments for those of us who do care about computing.
        SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
        As others are saying isn't there Linux for that? I see that conversation is happening elsewhere, so we can end this thread.
      - chii 6y ago
        > You're consuming and most people are fine with that. There's a bit of an elitist mentality that goes with being a programmer - that everybody should be as interested in tinkering as they are. Most people are dumb, non-thinking consumers of output. Most people don't want to have to open their washing machine and tweak the wires. Most people don't want their fridge to be able to do anything other than being a fridge. And most people want their computers to play videos and read emails and websites.
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    - marcosdumay 6y ago
      We have ubiquitous access to the allowed functionality, that is as reliable as the functionality provider decides to make it (reliability may be removed after the sale if the provider so wishes). Modern machines empower people to do as they are told, and nothing else.
  - farisjarrah 6y ago
    The other side of the spectrum is that Linux is easier to use and more accessible then ever. Ubuntu, Elementary OS, Manjaro, PopOS, and Linux Mint have made linux more friendly then ever to "average" computer users, and each day more and more devices and hardware architectures are getting supported.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      > The other side of the spectrum is that Linux is easier to use and more accessible then ever. Unfortunately that isn't saying much, and as a long time user of Linux Desktops I can assure you that things are at least as complicated as they always were, they're just more usable now as long as you don't try to do something uncommon. And worse yet: to attain this goal distros have been becoming even more like appliances than computers! Consider why there are so many distros in the first place: it's really hard to take a standard base and convert it to your needs.
      - chii 6y ago
        So what are you asking for exactly then? Linux distros have power and customizability, but it's not easy to use. That's par for the course. Windows is (like macs) slowly becoming more walled gardened and controls removed from the user, in the name of making it more user friendly and un-breakable. So either a user learns to be a power user, and go with linux, or stay as a "normal" user, and give control over to microsoft/apple/google etc. There isn't any other choice in the design space of operating systems.
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
        > Linux distros have power and customizability, but it's not easy to use. That's par for the course. I contend that it is possible to have both, it's just that no one is trying to anymore. > So either a user learns to be a power user, and go with linux, or stay as a "normal" user, and give control over to microsoft/apple/google etc. And this is why. Because people who have the ability and opportunity to build that future refuse to do so because they like having a wall that separates them from "normal users" so they can feel superior or something. It didn't used to be this way, a lot of effort used to go into making environments that were powerful and had a good user experience and helped onramp the user to programming. Unfortunately, we've basically thrown all that away now because it isn't where the money is.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  for many it was a word processor with slow internet, and a ton of vulnerabilities and viruses. As far as I can tell, for the most part not much has changed. The only difference is now people write to one another via Facebook instead of mailing letters to one another. They still complain about the speed of their connections. Vulnerabilities and viruses haven't gone away. About the only things that are different is that we now take pictures with our telephones every six minutes, and the internet has increased the ability to make people mad at one another.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    I'm slowly becoming more and more convinced that people don't remember 20 years ago - systems are so much faster and stable now it's a whole new world. My system rarely if ever crashes - 20 years go it would be a daily thing. People are going to complain no matter what. What matters is that things are actually better - people being upset about that doesn't actually indicate whether things are better.
anoncake 6y ago
Everything capitalist is.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago

I'm going to try and be not cynical for a second - in 1999 computing truly empowered a small group of enthusiasts. Yes, lots of people had access to computers, but for many it was a word processor with slow internet, and a ton of vulnerabilities and viruses. Now many many more have been empowered, but at a cost of less peak power.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
I'd argue that they aren't really empowered. I don't feel empowered by my phone because everything is under someone else's control. I am only permitted to use applications as long as they don't want root access to the device. That trend is becoming more and more pervasive in other aspects of computing too.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  I get that - we've lost control of the device, but we now have ubiquitous access to computing - reliable, (relatively) safe access to the internet everywhere for nearly everyone. That wasn't a thing 20 years ago - computers were more arcane and required expertise to maintain. I totally understand we've lost access to the devices, I'm just arguing that there's an other side to this whole thing.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > I get that - we've lost control of the device, but we now have ubiquitous access to computing - reliable, (relatively) safe access to the internet everywhere for nearly everyone. Debatable. What makes computing so much more interesting than other tools is the ability to program them, to make the tool what you need it to be for what you want to do. 80s computer systems got this: they booted into a programming environment. 90s computer systems got this: they gave us HyperCard, VB, Delphi, etc and productivity software like Excel (which I contend is still the most widely used programming environment on earth) became programmable and extendable too. Turning first time computer users into programmers was a goal because that's what computers were for! We don't really have computers like that anymore. What we have are appliances. Sure, they have a lot of add-on modules, but you're not encouraged to program them, to adapt them to your needs, you're encouraged to buy that from somebody else with money and/or turning over data. A lot of those "tools" seek to addict you to their usage so you can be peppered with advertisements. You're consuming, not computing.
    - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
      We have different definitions of computing - For me computing is the ability to perform work and get information on a computer, which I think is a lot better these days. Not everyone cares to be a programmer, and to put computers behind that wall serves to stop people from accessing them. That feels kind of like gate-keeping, especially as the modern internet is so incredibly complicated that casual dabbling isn't really good enough to get things done - where in this case "getting things done" is pulling information from web pages, paying bills, emails, etc. It can be a hobby, absolutely, but one that you need to be dedicated to, and as such, not for most people.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
        > Not everyone cares to be a programmer, and to put computers behind that wall serves to stop people from accessing them. You misunderstand. I don't lament the existence of appliances, I lament that the hijacking of "computer" to mean "appliance" has lead to a lack of progress in computing environments for those of us who do care about computing.
        SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
        As others are saying isn't there Linux for that? I see that conversation is happening elsewhere, so we can end this thread.
    - chii 6y ago
      > You're consuming and most people are fine with that. There's a bit of an elitist mentality that goes with being a programmer - that everybody should be as interested in tinkering as they are. Most people are dumb, non-thinking consumers of output. Most people don't want to have to open their washing machine and tweak the wires. Most people don't want their fridge to be able to do anything other than being a fridge. And most people want their computers to play videos and read emails and websites.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  - marcosdumay 6y ago
    We have ubiquitous access to the allowed functionality, that is as reliable as the functionality provider decides to make it (reliability may be removed after the sale if the provider so wishes). Modern machines empower people to do as they are told, and nothing else.
- farisjarrah 6y ago
  The other side of the spectrum is that Linux is easier to use and more accessible then ever. Ubuntu, Elementary OS, Manjaro, PopOS, and Linux Mint have made linux more friendly then ever to "average" computer users, and each day more and more devices and hardware architectures are getting supported.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > The other side of the spectrum is that Linux is easier to use and more accessible then ever. Unfortunately that isn't saying much, and as a long time user of Linux Desktops I can assure you that things are at least as complicated as they always were, they're just more usable now as long as you don't try to do something uncommon. And worse yet: to attain this goal distros have been becoming even more like appliances than computers! Consider why there are so many distros in the first place: it's really hard to take a standard base and convert it to your needs.
    - chii 6y ago
      So what are you asking for exactly then? Linux distros have power and customizability, but it's not easy to use. That's par for the course. Windows is (like macs) slowly becoming more walled gardened and controls removed from the user, in the name of making it more user friendly and un-breakable. So either a user learns to be a power user, and go with linux, or stay as a "normal" user, and give control over to microsoft/apple/google etc. There isn't any other choice in the design space of operating systems.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
        > Linux distros have power and customizability, but it's not easy to use. That's par for the course. I contend that it is possible to have both, it's just that no one is trying to anymore. > So either a user learns to be a power user, and go with linux, or stay as a "normal" user, and give control over to microsoft/apple/google etc. And this is why. Because people who have the ability and opportunity to build that future refuse to do so because they like having a wall that separates them from "normal users" so they can feel superior or something. It didn't used to be this way, a lot of effort used to go into making environments that were powerful and had a good user experience and helped onramp the user to programming. Unfortunately, we've basically thrown all that away now because it isn't where the money is.
reaperducer 6y ago
for many it was a word processor with slow internet, and a ton of vulnerabilities and viruses. As far as I can tell, for the most part not much has changed. The only difference is now people write to one another via Facebook instead of mailing letters to one another. They still complain about the speed of their connections. Vulnerabilities and viruses haven't gone away. About the only things that are different is that we now take pictures with our telephones every six minutes, and the internet has increased the ability to make people mad at one another.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  I'm slowly becoming more and more convinced that people don't remember 20 years ago - systems are so much faster and stable now it's a whole new world. My system rarely if ever crashes - 20 years go it would be a daily thing. People are going to complain no matter what. What matters is that things are actually better - people being upset about that doesn't actually indicate whether things are better.

anoncake 6y ago

Everything capitalist is.