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I've also been cut off from most of the traditional banking for most of my professional life, and my only crime was being born in Venezuela. Yes, I know Bitcoi

I've also been cut off from most of the traditional banking for most of my professional life, and my only crime was being born in Venezuela. Yes, I know Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies aren't being used by everyone. Yes, I'm aware of the risks and the costs. But it's still a huge boon as crypto allowed me to transact at all when it was physically unfeasible to do so. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until such reality changes: most people who disregard cryptocurrency as just a fad can afford to think that way. Their needs are served by traditional banking, and that's fine! But it's not the reality for an important amount of people who are unbanked for whatever reason: their past, their actions (whether moral things considered illegal and thus they're prosecuted, or legal things that society consider immoral and thus they're censored) or even just a geographical accident.

Barrin92 6y ago
I think it's a reasonable solution at the margins as long as the situtation in countries like Venezuela is as bad as it is. I don't think many people dispute that. But as a solution for the institutional failures it still is not a replacement and obviously the solution in Venezuela needs to be repairing the system. Same with Sci-Hub in this case. The Bitcoin donations alleviate financial pressure somewhat, but of course the lawsuits and IP-infringement will still haunt everyone involved.
- cinquemb 6y ago
  > I think it's a reasonable solution at the margins Reasonable solutions at the margins tend to be adapted in some major way by the masses in time, like bottleneck microstates can end up driving steady state long term behaviors of systems in glassy dynamics… technical solutions to make lawsuits and IP-infrignment have no teeth are being adopted more everyday but not as fast as some would like.
- mariuolo 6y ago
  > the lawsuits and IP-infringement will still haunt everyone involved. I suspect donations are used mostly to keep the lights on.
- lend000 6y ago
  The point that you're missing is that there will always be Venezuelas and Zimbabwes, and Bitcoin, in its current form, serves as a baseline financial system that unfortunate citizens of failing states can fall back on. It has plenty of issues when it comes to buying coffee and small transactions, but perfect is the enemy of good and it has properties that make it much harder to censor than USD based services, which will just comply with the state.
  - andai 6y ago
    I often hear the argument that BitCoin is unsuitable for small transactions. That's certainly the case (at least in recent years). What I don't understand is why people don't then just use one of the literally thousands of other currencies -- most of which handle small transactions just fine. For small transfers I use DogeCoin and the fee is 0.2 cents.
    - spurdoman77 6y ago
      Bitcoin for me is a "savings account". The tx fee is certainly important, but more important is the long term value appreciation. I have changed btc to other cryptos to spend them, so I pay less fees, but Im not holding other cryptos long term.
      - bouncycastle 6y ago
        a savings account that loses 50% of its value in a matter of days? If anything, the crash last March has proven that BTC is not a safe asset and not immune from a global financial meltdown. Other way around - its very sensitive to it actually.
        ric2b 6y ago
        It's very volatile but usually you don't touch a savings account regularly so it doesn't matter what it does day to day, only long term.
- DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
  This sort of "Once we've made everything perfect" reasoning doesn't really reflect reality all that much though; the point is that centralized systems will always be vulnerable to these problems; even if we temporarily fix them, that'll be an exception and sooner or later the systems will fall back into their broken state. From that premise that the probem is universal, the deduction that the solution is also not just a temporary fix seems like the only reasonably conclusiont to me. I'm not completely sure whether you're arguing that the bitcoin hype will pass once we've sorted out a few problems, or just that it'd be a nicer world if that could ever be the case; but either way, I don't think cryptocurrencies should be a last resort but instead become the norm. Offense is the best defense, after all.
  - Super_Jambo 6y ago
    I would argue that centralization is inherent in most humans instincts. To put it another way, many people like having a leader. In fact people like leaders so much that exposed to a capricious and cruel world they'll invent imaginary and often cruel ones just to give the world a sense of order. Think the old testament God or lizard people conspiracy theories. Given we're going to huge groups of people running around following leaders I think our best effort is spent trying to make the selection of those leaders pick non-evil people who run vaguely meritocratic and fair systems. Rather than trying to engineer ideal de-centralized systems _which will also have to be robust against the mob following their evil leaders. Obviously this is a false dichotomy and we can do both, but please don't give up on good leadership, people need it and there's plenty of examples of it exiting.
    - danwills 6y ago
      This causes such a problem with governance though: Instead of voting for (or contributing to) ideas/policies directly, you have to translate your preference into a selection/ranking of the people who sound like they might support the ideas that you would like to see in your democracy. Sounds like a pretty crappy codec for that kind of signal tbh.
  - zimbatm 6y ago
    I would go even further in your argument and say that the escape-hatches are a requirement to keep the centralized system in check. This is a bit like the free market argument in the sense that it creates competition.
- mbdesign 6y ago
  Also consider using a stable coin like DAI, USDC etc if your use case is to mimick somewhat of a bank account without crazy volatility.
  - Siira 6y ago
    They’re a scam. They have no real reserve.
- loriverkutya 6y ago
  > But as a solution for the institutional failures it still is not a replacement and obviously the solution in Venezuela needs to be repairing the system. The point you seems to be missing, that the system cannot be repaired in a day and people need to eat, while they doing the repair.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  It doesn't address the problem of Venezuela at scale: the initial distribution problem. If you trade BTC for Bolivars between people in Venezuela then the total number of Bolivars, hence welfare within the system, remains unchanged. If you trade Bolivars for things outside, you can trade outside the country, and are better off with literally anything you can get outside the country. I don't doubt for a small handful of people who got their hands on some BTC they individually are better off. That doesn't change the fact it's not a reasonable solution at scale.
- exo762 6y ago
  > But as a solution for the institutional failures it still is not a replacement I don't think one can call PayPal an institution. As for an ability to transact - I don't see why shouldn't we replace institutions that prevent us from transacting. Failing business models of Elsevier and likes are a problem of their shareholders. I, personally, want them crushed.
bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
In my experience, there are a lot of cryptocurrency detractors that don't understand that the crux of their stance is essentially privilege.
- Borish_Johnson 6y ago
  Same has happened within the Bitcoin community too. The Bitcoin Core team celebrates and encourages high fees as they say it "makes the network more secure". Other groups say low fees and high usage make it more secure.
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  Access to a computer and internet is also a privilege. Good luck using bitcoin without these.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    You would be surprised, but I am willing to bet that to have access to those is way more common that to live in a country with a sane and stable economy.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      Any currency can be used as a parallel currency. Cryptocurrency doesn't have a monopoly on that. Usually people just use dollars when their native currency is worthless.
      - Siira 6y ago
        Sure, good luck using dollars without any banking services. The dollars are so safe under your pillow. Especially since the country is so stable and nice and criminals are so nonexistent. Very good plan.
        dcposch 6y ago
        In practice it's exactly what happens. Bitcoin volume in Venezuela today is a rounding error. But most of the country is using physical USD to transact. Crypto still has not solved two key problems, volatility and usability. Most people are not technical. Most people are also not OK putting their savings in something that can easily lose half its value in a month.
microcolonel 6y ago
I wonder how hard it would be for a bank to try to become nationally available by explicitly serving the people (firearms manufacturers, pornographers, and immigrants from high-risk countries, among others) who are inappropriately mischaracterized as “high risk” despite having good books.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > I wonder how hard it would be for a bank to try to become nationally available by explicitly serving the people (firearms manufacturers, pornographers, and immigrants from high-risk countries, among others) who are inappropriately mischaracterized as “high risk” despite having good books. Very. Operation chokepoint essentially blackballed every single one of those Industries, and some credit unions tried to get a Charter from the Federal Reserve, and were essentially 'choked in the crib' when they attempted to. Look up the story of 4 corners credit union, $100ks were wasted trying to appease the regulators to help members of the Cannabis Industry. Some eventually got other banks to participate, but it was still, and likely always will be what I always referred to as 'bank account whack-a-mole' where several accounts are shut down and have 2-3 to serve as backups when they eventually get shutdown. This happened to a local dispensary owner, whose son is actually a Lightening Network developer and was able to route around it. Adoption was less than ideal, but it proved a point that the tech is mature enough to take on financial censorship if/when the will exists.
  - microcolonel 6y ago
    For whatever it's worth, the problem with the cannabis industry is that they are still committing federal crimes, there is a legitimate reason for banks to shy away from cannabis manufacturers, processors, and retailers even if they would have an ordinary risk profile under other circumstances. The federal government does not enforce the law sufficiently to motivate its repeal, so we are stuck in limbo, where the mass of individuals are complacent, and they externalize the costs on the suppliers and retailers.
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
prepend 6y ago
I think cryptocurrency is great as a currency. I think it was stupid as speculation or investment. Digital money is awesome, it being taken over by so many carpetbaggers is not. I’m looking forward to bitcoin having a stable value for a few years, any value.
- bitcoinbutter 6y ago
  Bitcoin has really settled down in terms of price swings over the last year. It did have a major covid crash, but aside from that it's been very stable for the past year. Keep in mind that the price moves also attract attention, and act as a sort of advertisement of its existence. It wouldn't get any mainstream coverage without the price moves.
  - prepend 6y ago
    It’s definitely better this year, but I don’t want my currency to fluctuate 10%.
    - pishpash 6y ago
      On what time scale? Currencies fluctuate 10% all the time over a year.
      - manquer 6y ago
        A typical volatility index measure like VIX( EVZ ?) could be good reference , there are few VIxes which look bitcoin as priced in USD
      - Carpetsmoker 6y ago
        BitCoin has fluctuated much more than 10% in the last year though: https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XBT&to=USD&view=1Y https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XBT&to=USD&view=1Y Certainly much more than USD/EUR: https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=USD&view=1Y https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=USD&view=1Y
      - 6y ago
Oricle 6y ago
This is what most so called 'developed' (indoctrinated) countries don't get but people from so called 'undeveloped' (un-indocrinated) countries get easily and see the worth and value. I've been into it since 2010 because I'm well travelled and don't listen to mainstream media. Most people are glued to the news,papers,Facebook,Twitter and what not so are constantly fed the lies. At this point, when did any government or agency ever tell the truth? Seriously! Via,MI5 etc distribute coke,ice,heroin around the world caught all the time. HSBC money laundering for cartels and get away with it. Well are tax dollars fund them cartels so they can't be linked!! Off, fuck it, even in a minority of one the truth is still the truth. The Jews have been manipulating it all along. Millennia. They are a race of people with distinctions just like white, negroids or mongoloids (flat back of head, lack of ear lobes, large nose) separating them as a different race, not religion! They are not meant to own land and Israel is meant to be a state! not a country! So calling me anti Semite shows how easily lead you are you can't discuss such things because they had no land to come from so are not Semites! Now be a good goyim and jump off that cliff for me will you!
jpkoning 6y ago
You'd think that Venezuela would have provided incredibly fertile ground for bitcoin usage to go mainstream. But what actually happened is good old fashioned dollarization. U.S. dollar banknotes flooded into the country. As for digital payments, Venezuelans have repurposed Zelle, the U.S-based person-to-person payments option, to make digital U.S. dollar payments.
- nickez 6y ago
  I was under the impression that bitcoin trading volume has been increasing steadily in Venezuela. https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VES https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VES
  - jpkoning 6y ago
    Yes, it is. My understanding is that some people use bitcoin as a bridge for remitting funds into Venezuela. But this is a niche usage. What locals really want are dollars. Something like 50-60% of all Venezuelan transactions are now being conducted with U.S. paper money and Zelle.
    - kemonocode 6y ago
      It's true, most transactions that involve USD are done with paper money in Venezuela (which is why I mentioned I used BTC when it wasn't physically feasible to transact because coming by such paper money is not straightforward) but when it comes to electronic solutions it's a constant cat-and-mouse game. You mention Zelle which was up until very recently [0] the most used option, but people are now seeking alternatives- cryptocurrency just being one of them- and I ought to clarify that not everybody has a trusty acquaintance/family member with an US-based bank account (or a bank account themselves) to use these solutions. [0] https://www.archyde.com/wells-fargo-eliminates-access-to-zelle-to-customers-with-an-account-address-in-venezuela/ https://www.archyde.com/wells-fargo-eliminates-access-to-zel...
  - waynenilsen 6y ago
    It is important to look at the axis and see there is no major growth right now it is floating around at 500 BTC per week which is about 4 million usd or approximately zero. This transaction volume is a rounding error for a country of that size

Barrin92 6y ago

I think it's a reasonable solution at the margins as long as the situtation in countries like Venezuela is as bad as it is. I don't think many people dispute that. But as a solution for the institutional failures it still is not a replacement and obviously the solution in Venezuela needs to be repairing the system. Same with Sci-Hub in this case. The Bitcoin donations alleviate financial pressure somewhat, but of course the lawsuits and IP-infringement will still haunt everyone involved.

cinquemb 6y ago
> I think it's a reasonable solution at the margins Reasonable solutions at the margins tend to be adapted in some major way by the masses in time, like bottleneck microstates can end up driving steady state long term behaviors of systems in glassy dynamics… technical solutions to make lawsuits and IP-infrignment have no teeth are being adopted more everyday but not as fast as some would like.
mariuolo 6y ago
> the lawsuits and IP-infringement will still haunt everyone involved. I suspect donations are used mostly to keep the lights on.
lend000 6y ago
The point that you're missing is that there will always be Venezuelas and Zimbabwes, and Bitcoin, in its current form, serves as a baseline financial system that unfortunate citizens of failing states can fall back on. It has plenty of issues when it comes to buying coffee and small transactions, but perfect is the enemy of good and it has properties that make it much harder to censor than USD based services, which will just comply with the state.
- andai 6y ago
  I often hear the argument that BitCoin is unsuitable for small transactions. That's certainly the case (at least in recent years). What I don't understand is why people don't then just use one of the literally thousands of other currencies -- most of which handle small transactions just fine. For small transfers I use DogeCoin and the fee is 0.2 cents.
  - spurdoman77 6y ago
    Bitcoin for me is a "savings account". The tx fee is certainly important, but more important is the long term value appreciation. I have changed btc to other cryptos to spend them, so I pay less fees, but Im not holding other cryptos long term.
    - bouncycastle 6y ago
      a savings account that loses 50% of its value in a matter of days? If anything, the crash last March has proven that BTC is not a safe asset and not immune from a global financial meltdown. Other way around - its very sensitive to it actually.
      - ric2b 6y ago
        It's very volatile but usually you don't touch a savings account regularly so it doesn't matter what it does day to day, only long term.
DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
This sort of "Once we've made everything perfect" reasoning doesn't really reflect reality all that much though; the point is that centralized systems will always be vulnerable to these problems; even if we temporarily fix them, that'll be an exception and sooner or later the systems will fall back into their broken state. From that premise that the probem is universal, the deduction that the solution is also not just a temporary fix seems like the only reasonably conclusiont to me. I'm not completely sure whether you're arguing that the bitcoin hype will pass once we've sorted out a few problems, or just that it'd be a nicer world if that could ever be the case; but either way, I don't think cryptocurrencies should be a last resort but instead become the norm. Offense is the best defense, after all.
- Super_Jambo 6y ago
  I would argue that centralization is inherent in most humans instincts. To put it another way, many people like having a leader. In fact people like leaders so much that exposed to a capricious and cruel world they'll invent imaginary and often cruel ones just to give the world a sense of order. Think the old testament God or lizard people conspiracy theories. Given we're going to huge groups of people running around following leaders I think our best effort is spent trying to make the selection of those leaders pick non-evil people who run vaguely meritocratic and fair systems. Rather than trying to engineer ideal de-centralized systems _which will also have to be robust against the mob following their evil leaders. Obviously this is a false dichotomy and we can do both, but please don't give up on good leadership, people need it and there's plenty of examples of it exiting.
  - danwills 6y ago
    This causes such a problem with governance though: Instead of voting for (or contributing to) ideas/policies directly, you have to translate your preference into a selection/ranking of the people who sound like they might support the ideas that you would like to see in your democracy. Sounds like a pretty crappy codec for that kind of signal tbh.
- zimbatm 6y ago
  I would go even further in your argument and say that the escape-hatches are a requirement to keep the centralized system in check. This is a bit like the free market argument in the sense that it creates competition.
mbdesign 6y ago
Also consider using a stable coin like DAI, USDC etc if your use case is to mimick somewhat of a bank account without crazy volatility.
- Siira 6y ago
  They’re a scam. They have no real reserve.
loriverkutya 6y ago
> But as a solution for the institutional failures it still is not a replacement and obviously the solution in Venezuela needs to be repairing the system. The point you seems to be missing, that the system cannot be repaired in a day and people need to eat, while they doing the repair.
arcticbull 6y ago
It doesn't address the problem of Venezuela at scale: the initial distribution problem. If you trade BTC for Bolivars between people in Venezuela then the total number of Bolivars, hence welfare within the system, remains unchanged. If you trade Bolivars for things outside, you can trade outside the country, and are better off with literally anything you can get outside the country. I don't doubt for a small handful of people who got their hands on some BTC they individually are better off. That doesn't change the fact it's not a reasonable solution at scale.
exo762 6y ago
> But as a solution for the institutional failures it still is not a replacement I don't think one can call PayPal an institution. As for an ability to transact - I don't see why shouldn't we replace institutions that prevent us from transacting. Failing business models of Elsevier and likes are a problem of their shareholders. I, personally, want them crushed.

bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago

In my experience, there are a lot of cryptocurrency detractors that don't understand that the crux of their stance is essentially privilege.

Borish_Johnson 6y ago
Same has happened within the Bitcoin community too. The Bitcoin Core team celebrates and encourages high fees as they say it "makes the network more secure". Other groups say low fees and high usage make it more secure.
throw_m239339 6y ago
Access to a computer and internet is also a privilege. Good luck using bitcoin without these.
- cambalache 6y ago
  You would be surprised, but I am willing to bet that to have access to those is way more common that to live in a country with a sane and stable economy.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Any currency can be used as a parallel currency. Cryptocurrency doesn't have a monopoly on that. Usually people just use dollars when their native currency is worthless.
    - Siira 6y ago
      Sure, good luck using dollars without any banking services. The dollars are so safe under your pillow. Especially since the country is so stable and nice and criminals are so nonexistent. Very good plan.
      - dcposch 6y ago
        In practice it's exactly what happens. Bitcoin volume in Venezuela today is a rounding error. But most of the country is using physical USD to transact. Crypto still has not solved two key problems, volatility and usability. Most people are not technical. Most people are also not OK putting their savings in something that can easily lose half its value in a month.

microcolonel 6y ago

I wonder how hard it would be for a bank to try to become nationally available by explicitly serving the people (firearms manufacturers, pornographers, and immigrants from high-risk countries, among others) who are inappropriately mischaracterized as “high risk” despite having good books.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> I wonder how hard it would be for a bank to try to become nationally available by explicitly serving the people (firearms manufacturers, pornographers, and immigrants from high-risk countries, among others) who are inappropriately mischaracterized as “high risk” despite having good books. Very. Operation chokepoint essentially blackballed every single one of those Industries, and some credit unions tried to get a Charter from the Federal Reserve, and were essentially 'choked in the crib' when they attempted to. Look up the story of 4 corners credit union, $100ks were wasted trying to appease the regulators to help members of the Cannabis Industry. Some eventually got other banks to participate, but it was still, and likely always will be what I always referred to as 'bank account whack-a-mole' where several accounts are shut down and have 2-3 to serve as backups when they eventually get shutdown. This happened to a local dispensary owner, whose son is actually a Lightening Network developer and was able to route around it. Adoption was less than ideal, but it proved a point that the tech is mature enough to take on financial censorship if/when the will exists.
- microcolonel 6y ago
  For whatever it's worth, the problem with the cannabis industry is that they are still committing federal crimes, there is a legitimate reason for banks to shy away from cannabis manufacturers, processors, and retailers even if they would have an ordinary risk profile under other circumstances. The federal government does not enforce the law sufficiently to motivate its repeal, so we are stuck in limbo, where the mass of individuals are complacent, and they externalize the costs on the suppliers and retailers.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago

prepend 6y ago

I think cryptocurrency is great as a currency. I think it was stupid as speculation or investment. Digital money is awesome, it being taken over by so many carpetbaggers is not. I’m looking forward to bitcoin having a stable value for a few years, any value.

bitcoinbutter 6y ago
Bitcoin has really settled down in terms of price swings over the last year. It did have a major covid crash, but aside from that it's been very stable for the past year. Keep in mind that the price moves also attract attention, and act as a sort of advertisement of its existence. It wouldn't get any mainstream coverage without the price moves.
- prepend 6y ago
  It’s definitely better this year, but I don’t want my currency to fluctuate 10%.
  - pishpash 6y ago
    On what time scale? Currencies fluctuate 10% all the time over a year.
    - manquer 6y ago
      A typical volatility index measure like VIX( EVZ ?) could be good reference , there are few VIxes which look bitcoin as priced in USD
    - Carpetsmoker 6y ago
      BitCoin has fluctuated much more than 10% in the last year though: https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XBT&to=USD&view=1Y https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XBT&to=USD&view=1Y Certainly much more than USD/EUR: https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=USD&view=1Y https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=USD&view=1Y
    - 6y ago

Oricle 6y ago

This is what most so called 'developed' (indoctrinated) countries don't get but people from so called 'undeveloped' (un-indocrinated) countries get easily and see the worth and value. I've been into it since 2010 because I'm well travelled and don't listen to mainstream media. Most people are glued to the news,papers,Facebook,Twitter and what not so are constantly fed the lies. At this point, when did any government or agency ever tell the truth? Seriously! Via,MI5 etc distribute coke,ice,heroin around the world caught all the time. HSBC money laundering for cartels and get away with it. Well are tax dollars fund them cartels so they can't be linked!! Off, fuck it, even in a minority of one the truth is still the truth. The Jews have been manipulating it all along. Millennia. They are a race of people with distinctions just like white, negroids or mongoloids (flat back of head, lack of ear lobes, large nose) separating them as a different race, not religion! They are not meant to own land and Israel is meant to be a state! not a country! So calling me anti Semite shows how easily lead you are you can't discuss such things because they had no land to come from so are not Semites! Now be a good goyim and jump off that cliff for me will you!

jpkoning 6y ago

You'd think that Venezuela would have provided incredibly fertile ground for bitcoin usage to go mainstream. But what actually happened is good old fashioned dollarization. U.S. dollar banknotes flooded into the country. As for digital payments, Venezuelans have repurposed Zelle, the U.S-based person-to-person payments option, to make digital U.S. dollar payments.

nickez 6y ago
I was under the impression that bitcoin trading volume has been increasing steadily in Venezuela. https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VES https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VES
- jpkoning 6y ago
  Yes, it is. My understanding is that some people use bitcoin as a bridge for remitting funds into Venezuela. But this is a niche usage. What locals really want are dollars. Something like 50-60% of all Venezuelan transactions are now being conducted with U.S. paper money and Zelle.
  - kemonocode 6y ago
    It's true, most transactions that involve USD are done with paper money in Venezuela (which is why I mentioned I used BTC when it wasn't physically feasible to transact because coming by such paper money is not straightforward) but when it comes to electronic solutions it's a constant cat-and-mouse game. You mention Zelle which was up until very recently [0] the most used option, but people are now seeking alternatives- cryptocurrency just being one of them- and I ought to clarify that not everybody has a trusty acquaintance/family member with an US-based bank account (or a bank account themselves) to use these solutions. [0] https://www.archyde.com/wells-fargo-eliminates-access-to-zelle-to-customers-with-an-account-address-in-venezuela/ https://www.archyde.com/wells-fargo-eliminates-access-to-zel...
- waynenilsen 6y ago
  It is important to look at the axis and see there is no major growth right now it is floating around at 500 BTC per week which is about 4 million usd or approximately zero. This transaction volume is a rounding error for a country of that size