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I think you're right about perceived barriers to entry, and I certainly didn't say (nor did I mean to imply) that anyone should "just" learn to code. But I thin

I think you're right about perceived barriers to entry, and I certainly didn't say (nor did I mean to imply) that anyone should "just" learn to code. But I think the promise of "apps without code" is a siren song, always ending in frustration. I'd never tell anyone that learning to code is easy (only that most people can do it with some hard work), but I would also never tell anyone that tools like this will make it easier because I do not believe that to be true.

chiefalchemist 6y ago
Two things to add: 1) Agreed. Writing the code is the easy part. Determining and defining what to build? That's the magic. 2) In the wrong hands, making things too easy can be detrimental. First, there's add too much, simply because you can. For instance, WordPress n00bs are notorious for adding too many plugins. Why? Because they can. The second reason is, changing too soon without enough data, without enough user input. Yes, iteration is helpdul. But if it's borderline pivoting then that's likely to end badly. Again, in the wrong hands.
- exclusiv 6y ago
  To add to that - Determining and defining what to build is not magic unless you write simple and elegant code that delivers on-time and on-budget. You can have all the magic in the world upfront with planning and have it fail spectacularly without the right execution that is accurate, on-time and on-budget.
  - chiefalchemist 6y ago
    That's true. Until you realize that the accurate execution that was on time and on budget actually built something that didn't actuslly meet the business needs. Then what? Yes. Execution matters. But it's only as good as understanding the target. Miss that target (read: meet biz needs) and no one will say "Yeah. But it was great execution."
    - exclusiv 6y ago
      True. I just see projects fail more often than not due to time/budget and/or shit code. Rarely do I see it fail because what was built didn't meet the business needs. Although if you're in start-ups, they plan and then build terrible products all the time so the attention to upfront planning and the business needs is way more important in that realm.
- ako 6y ago
  Agreed on 2), software development has become too easy, look at all the rubish people are putting online and in the appstores. Javascript, java and python have made it too easy to write software. Would be better to return back to the days when everything was written in C and Assembly. /s
  - chiefalchemist 6y ago
    I wasn't talkind about engineerss. I was talking about no-code and the type of people who use such tools. That is, typically, no training, no understanding. They don't understand "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should." I'm not knocking Honeycode and similar. I think they're great. But they are simply tools. They are at their best when they are paired with a user with some understanding and sufficient knowledge.
danudey 6y ago
My counterpoint (to your original point) is that it's not about writing code. Making an app like this and putting it online (with roughly the same level of features) requires: * Learning a backend language, like Python * Learning how to design a data model * Learning how to design an admin interface * Managing authentication, security, and performance * Learning HTML, CSS, and Javascript * Learning how to set up a uwsgi server * Learning how to set up an nginx server * Learning how to set up an AWS VM and deploy the above to it * Learning how to use a VCS I'm an experienced programmer and sysadmin who has done all of those things and more over the last 20 years, and I still can't imagine going to the trouble of actually doing all of that if I can just log into HoneyComb and make everything nice and quick and just get it done. There's value in learning how to do it, but there's also value in spending your time somewhere else. If you're making a simple CRUD app, bashing it together with Django and deploying it to an EC2 VM is almost definitely not your differentiated value proposition. If it's just a throwaway app to handle some mundane task, then it's definitely not wort hthe time it takes to make it if you don't have to.
- andrewzah 6y ago
  > I still can't imagine going to the trouble of actually doing all of that if I can just log into HoneyComb and make everything nice and quick and just get it done. That sounds all nice and good until one inevitably runs into limitations of the software. And then it has to be made again, this time from scratch. > bashing it together with Django and deploying it to an EC2 VM is almost definitely not your differentiated value proposition It never -was- the value proposition. Customers simply do not care about what stack you used in the first place. They will care when features don't get rolled out because of limitations. Or when bugs arise because developers duct-taped solutions together because of the limitations of their software-making software. Not that traditional apps are perfect, but that's one issue they don't have. Yes, it is complicated, and if you're making a toy app it probably will suffice. But I would never rely on it for a business.
  - dataminded 6y ago
    > But I would never rely on it for a business. You sir have options. Every place I have ever worked has at least one app that someone hacked together through some combination of PDFs, Excel and Access. This is a tremendous opportunity for those folks. The ones who will never learn to code, never learn to deploy an application and never get enough visibility to have a developer assigned to their project. For the everyteam, these types of tools are exceptional. I continue to be amazed by what dedicated people pull-off with these no-code solutions.
gwebster 6y ago
Think most people are missing the point. There are thousands of Excel users who can write fairly complex formulas using declarative rather than procedural approach. They currently share spreadsheets by email. The entire spreadsheet - all data and all formulas are shared. Maybe they want to share only a subset with some folks, and maybe they will start small and keep enhancing the apps. That's what this tool looks like will accomplish. A new class of apps will be built - that have never been built before. The so called app market will expand. This doesn't replace the current apps, or the current set of engineers developing these apps. This grows the overall market to be 10x larger than what it is now.
- ravivyas 6y ago
  Yup sharing all the data is definitely a pain point, A question I once asked someone during a customer interview is what is that employee left? what happens to the data?
OOPMan 6y ago
It's not even a new siren song. Every few years someone comes along with a new toy that promises to finally deliver. It's been going since at least the 90s (when I was old enough to start reading programming magazines (remember those?)) Truly, software development is sisyphean in nature...

chiefalchemist 6y ago

Two things to add: 1) Agreed. Writing the code is the easy part. Determining and defining what to build? That's the magic. 2) In the wrong hands, making things too easy can be detrimental. First, there's add too much, simply because you can. For instance, WordPress n00bs are notorious for adding too many plugins. Why? Because they can. The second reason is, changing too soon without enough data, without enough user input. Yes, iteration is helpdul. But if it's borderline pivoting then that's likely to end badly. Again, in the wrong hands.

exclusiv 6y ago
To add to that - Determining and defining what to build is not magic unless you write simple and elegant code that delivers on-time and on-budget. You can have all the magic in the world upfront with planning and have it fail spectacularly without the right execution that is accurate, on-time and on-budget.
- chiefalchemist 6y ago
  That's true. Until you realize that the accurate execution that was on time and on budget actually built something that didn't actuslly meet the business needs. Then what? Yes. Execution matters. But it's only as good as understanding the target. Miss that target (read: meet biz needs) and no one will say "Yeah. But it was great execution."
  - exclusiv 6y ago
    True. I just see projects fail more often than not due to time/budget and/or shit code. Rarely do I see it fail because what was built didn't meet the business needs. Although if you're in start-ups, they plan and then build terrible products all the time so the attention to upfront planning and the business needs is way more important in that realm.
ako 6y ago
Agreed on 2), software development has become too easy, look at all the rubish people are putting online and in the appstores. Javascript, java and python have made it too easy to write software. Would be better to return back to the days when everything was written in C and Assembly. /s
- chiefalchemist 6y ago
  I wasn't talkind about engineerss. I was talking about no-code and the type of people who use such tools. That is, typically, no training, no understanding. They don't understand "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should." I'm not knocking Honeycode and similar. I think they're great. But they are simply tools. They are at their best when they are paired with a user with some understanding and sufficient knowledge.

danudey 6y ago

My counterpoint (to your original point) is that it's not about writing code. Making an app like this and putting it online (with roughly the same level of features) requires: * Learning a backend language, like Python * Learning how to design a data model * Learning how to design an admin interface * Managing authentication, security, and performance * Learning HTML, CSS, and Javascript * Learning how to set up a uwsgi server * Learning how to set up an nginx server * Learning how to set up an AWS VM and deploy the above to it * Learning how to use a VCS I'm an experienced programmer and sysadmin who has done all of those things and more over the last 20 years, and I still can't imagine going to the trouble of actually doing all of that if I can just log into HoneyComb and make everything nice and quick and just get it done. There's value in learning how to do it, but there's also value in spending your time somewhere else. If you're making a simple CRUD app, bashing it together with Django and deploying it to an EC2 VM is almost definitely not your differentiated value proposition. If it's just a throwaway app to handle some mundane task, then it's definitely not wort hthe time it takes to make it if you don't have to.

andrewzah 6y ago
> I still can't imagine going to the trouble of actually doing all of that if I can just log into HoneyComb and make everything nice and quick and just get it done. That sounds all nice and good until one inevitably runs into limitations of the software. And then it has to be made again, this time from scratch. > bashing it together with Django and deploying it to an EC2 VM is almost definitely not your differentiated value proposition It never -was- the value proposition. Customers simply do not care about what stack you used in the first place. They will care when features don't get rolled out because of limitations. Or when bugs arise because developers duct-taped solutions together because of the limitations of their software-making software. Not that traditional apps are perfect, but that's one issue they don't have. Yes, it is complicated, and if you're making a toy app it probably will suffice. But I would never rely on it for a business.
- dataminded 6y ago
  > But I would never rely on it for a business. You sir have options. Every place I have ever worked has at least one app that someone hacked together through some combination of PDFs, Excel and Access. This is a tremendous opportunity for those folks. The ones who will never learn to code, never learn to deploy an application and never get enough visibility to have a developer assigned to their project. For the everyteam, these types of tools are exceptional. I continue to be amazed by what dedicated people pull-off with these no-code solutions.

gwebster 6y ago

Think most people are missing the point. There are thousands of Excel users who can write fairly complex formulas using declarative rather than procedural approach. They currently share spreadsheets by email. The entire spreadsheet - all data and all formulas are shared. Maybe they want to share only a subset with some folks, and maybe they will start small and keep enhancing the apps. That's what this tool looks like will accomplish. A new class of apps will be built - that have never been built before. The so called app market will expand. This doesn't replace the current apps, or the current set of engineers developing these apps. This grows the overall market to be 10x larger than what it is now.

ravivyas 6y ago
Yup sharing all the data is definitely a pain point, A question I once asked someone during a customer interview is what is that employee left? what happens to the data?

OOPMan 6y ago

It's not even a new siren song. Every few years someone comes along with a new toy that promises to finally deliver. It's been going since at least the 90s (when I was old enough to start reading programming magazines (remember those?)) Truly, software development is sisyphean in nature...