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As a Brazilian, I'm pleased. Our central bank is going to release a platform called PIX. Financial institutions with more than 500.000 clients are required to

As a Brazilian, I'm pleased. Our central bank is going to release a platform called PIX. Financial institutions with more than 500.000 clients are required to implement it. Finally we are going to have a standard across banks, and money transfers are going to be less complex, clunky and costly. Of course, other apps have come before. We have apps like PicPay, PayPal and Nubank, just to name a few, that provide instant, free money transfers. Unsurprisingly, each one rolled out their own standard, but they had to register at the central bank as a financial institution. This means that, at least the popular ones, will have to provide compatibility with the central bank's platform. This new WhatsApp feature, to me, looked like a bold attempt to kill PIX at launch. People wouldn't mind this new feature inside their banking app that already exists, for a few months, in the messaging app they're used to. If the average Brazilian user sees a QR code, is it a WhatsApp Pay QR code they see regularly? Or is it that obscure feature inside their banking app, which they didn't pay attention to? What would make more sense for businesses to adopt, for the sake of simplicity? I'm glad Facebook will not get away with that one. If they're going to launch this feature, our central bank should make sure that it's compatible with the nationwide standard that's going to roll out. I'd rather not need Facebook to conveniently pay for my loaf of bread. Edit: replaced "service" with "platform".

comechao 6y ago
If this is about Pix, and I believe it is, Government is killing competitors. If Pix is better, people will choose Pix, if WhatsApp is better, people will use it. Let's not force people to use a solution and create a monopoly controlled by the Government, again.
- diegoholiveira 6y ago
  PIX will not be a service to end-users, it'll create a standard where any service can offer instant payments and transfers. It will increase competition in the long run because if you want to open a payments fintech, you don't need to go in every bank or other fintech to do agreements about how your app will communicate with then, you just use the PIX to communicate with everyone.
  - comechao 6y ago
    Sure, that's why I used the term "solution". I understand that PIX will be better than what we have today, but there's no reason to block other players and don't allow them to create their own payment solutions or products, based or not on PIX.
    - onli 6y ago
      Sure there is. The government has the responsibility to create a free market. If a proprietary standard wins, you have a monopoly without competition. If the government standard wins that enables interoperability, no company can block other competitors. Europe did the same and it worked.
      - chrisco255 6y ago
        What stops the government from abusing this standard to impose arbitrary restrictions on spending?
        rescbr 6y ago
        Nothing that cannot also be applied to Facebook. The Brazilian Central Bank has authority on money transfers, so whatever regulation they want to arbitrarily impose regarding this matter, they can do. Facebook is a registered company in Brazil, they were going to operate the payments platform through a card processor, etc, so directly or indirectly they are under the authority of the Central Bank. EDIT: by the way, regular banks and fintechs already have to be a participant in the Central Bank's payments system in order to settle funds. PIX is (also) a 24x7 implementation of the existing electronic money transfer system which only is available on working days.
      - felipeko 6y ago
        I don't think the Brazilian government has this responsibility as it is the most at fault for Brazil's lacking free market. Maybe when it becomes a champion on that, removing barriers of entry, protectionism, subsidies and it's public companies monopolies, then it can be a fair judge on this issue.
- vslira 6y ago
  GP's point (which I believe is naive, I suspect foul play from competitors, especially big banks) is that FB was trying to corner the market through network effects before an open standard took hold and the Central Bank acted to stop that from happening.
  - cheez 6y ago
    And now PIX will never be implemented.
    - kawera 6y ago
      PIX is in test and will be available to all brazilians from october. Several payment operators are implementing it's protocol.
      - cheez 6y ago
        Hope you are right.
        fredguth 6y ago
        In Brazil, we have had same-day money transfer (normally it takes 15 min) among accounts in different banks. Same bank accounts have "instantaneous" money transfer. PIX will make it simpler for newcomers.
- baq 6y ago
  government standard for electronic wire transfers beats checks (duh) or private standards designed to extract money from the market. bank implements pix, another bank implements pix, customers are happy because they can transfer money securely to each other. at least that's how this works in the EU.
- Mengkudulangsat 6y ago
  No matter how good PIX is, as a local standard it will never be able to do what Whatsap (may) be able to do - transact with foreigners.
  - rescbr 6y ago
    Oh, this would be a whole can of worms that Facebook would not want to open. International transactions are very regulated in Brazil and certainly not only the Central Bank would be heavy with their hammer, but Receita Federal (tax authority) would also be very interested in this. When PayPal started operating in Brazil, they had to convert all Brazilian accounts held in USD to BRL, and there are some restrictions on currency exchange operations that accounts registered in other countries don't have.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  > If Pix is better, people will choose Pix, if WhatsApp is better, people will use it. Yes, let Facebook and Apple invent their own internet too, with no compatibility between them. Let's also allow Ford / GM to create their own roads exclusively for Ford / GM vehicles. /s This is not businesses we are talking about, it's public infrastructure. And banking is a public infrastructure.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    Have a little faith? Compuserve, Prodigy, AOL, and a raft of others tried to make "their own internet" in the 80s/90s and the open system won out.
    - webmobdev 6y ago
      > Have a little faith? No, thank you. I am from India, a country that lost its independence and was ruled and looted as a colony by a corporate called the East India Company. I have no faith in or trust in corporates. In a healthy democracy, Government regulations and standards are a MUST to protect us from the greed of the corporates, and to create a level playing field. Facebook is an american company and I applaud the wisdom of the Brazil policy makers to make it abide by their country's rules.
throwaway3975 6y ago
The Bloomberg article that The Verge is referencing says that WhatsApp plans to implement PIX: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-23/brazil-s-central-bank-suspends-whatsapp-payments https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-23/brazi...
- kawera 6y ago
  Good. Then they can deploy their solution using a protocol available to all and not a closed platform made to lock the market. We've had enough of that, didn't we?
  - Lt_Riza_Hawkeye 6y ago
    WhatsApp was always planning on implementing PIX. But PIX won't be available for at least another six months - so they went with the current system instead while they waited.
- dang 6y ago
  We've changed the URL to that from https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21301470/whatsapp-payments-brazil-suspended-central-bank-risk-regulators https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21301470/whatsapp-payment.... This is the third or fourth theverge.com submission we've had to do that for in the last couple days.
  - darwinwhy 6y ago
    To be fair to the OP, they probably don't have a Bloomberg subscription.
centimeter 6y ago
> money transfers are going to be less complex, clunky and costly. You really think the Brazilian central bank is going to make a smooth, efficient, and cheap money transfer service? What reason do you have to expect that to work?
- diegoholiveira 6y ago
  > You really think the Brazilian central bank is going to make a smooth, efficient, and cheap money transfer service They will not do a transfer service, they will provide a specification that must be follow in order to provide instant payments and transfers. To be honest, our central bank is pretty good in create such specifications.
- soneca 6y ago
  As a Brazilian living in the US I can tell you that the TED system is already a smooth, efficient, and cheap money transfer service compared to the solutions here in the US. So I have total confidence that they are capable of creating a better yet version of it.
  - danilocesar 6y ago
    As a Brazilian living in Canada, I can say the same.
    - f00zz 6y ago
      As a Brazilian living in Brazil I'm surprised that anyone would expect a service provided by the Brazilian government to be efficient, or even work at all. This Pix thing seems to cover more than inter-bank transfers, people are expected to use it for QR code-based mobile payments for instance.
      - EL_Loco 6y ago
        The HIV treatment program, provided by the brazilian government for free to everyone that needs it, has been very succesful and is a model to be followed. Not everything the government does is rotten, just a lot of it. "Throughout the 1990s, when the annual cost of drugs for AIDS treatment often exceeded US$10,000 per patient, the World Bank and other development agencies discouraged developing countries from implementing treatment programs, favoring “cost-effective” prevention over costly treatment. Brazil challenged this conventional wisdom and, despite World Bank objections, has provided free universal access to highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) for all people living with HIV/AIDS since 1996." source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782963/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782963/
harpratap 6y ago
> This new WhatsApp feature, to me, looked like a bold attempt to kill PIX at launch. I don't think so. FB is using UPI in India, they could have used PIX too. Looks like Brazilian government was just a bit late to the payment party and FB had already implemented something in-house in the meantime.
haolez 6y ago
As a Brazilian, I am not pleased. This will become just another tool for the government to create artificial difficulties and sell solutions to its closest "friends". Standards have been created without any government's help since forever.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- gcbw3 6y ago
  What's the alternative? leave facebook do exactly it instead of the government? You speak like the free-for-all tax tools didn't work for you. Do you rather the US model? where you have to pay $100~300 every year for exactly the same tools from a single private company that has a de facto monopoly because of close ties to the government? Also, in the US, a transfer from your checking account (where you get your paycheck) to your credit card account (where credit card purchases show up) to pay up your monthly credit card bill, in the same bank, same client, you literally see both on the same screen on your internet bank, takes two to FIVE business day. Let that sink in when talking about US banking being archaic.
  - lykr0n 6y ago
    > takes two to FIVE business day That's only the case if the credit card services are powered by a 3rd party. Chase, Wells Fargo, USBank, BECU, Alliant CU, BBVA, Citi, M&T, and others are all instant if you're paying from an account at that bank.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
      I think OP is talking about movement between banks. External transfer ( basically ACH ) between my banks is on average 5 days now. Last time I challenged them on this they used blanket 'fraud protection' as an excuse. When I started depositing cash as a way to deal with it, I got odd looks asking if the money is from my online business. I dislike banking lately. And I used to be that annoying guy who goes into branch to do some transactions. Point is, it really shouldn't take that long ( and I know for a fact it doean't ) to settle.
anthony_r 6y ago
And you're 100% sure that this is not just currency controls because the Brazilian Real is getting killed? From what I can tell - Brazil is going to Argentina, quickly :(
- fredguth 6y ago
  These currency controls are in place for decades and our current financial crisis has nothing to do with that.
- splintercell 6y ago
  It's absolutely that, and the only competition it killed is for upcoming stablecoin revolution in high inflation countries.
worldexplorer 6y ago
So PIX is like UPI(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface) in India?
wslh 6y ago
Even with all the economic struggles, Argentina was ahead many countries in the world regarding bank integrations. For years you can make immediate wire transfers between banks without any extra fee (beyond the taxes imposed by the state). If you want to create a digital wallet you don't need to be a bank, you can register as a payment processor and get virtual bank accounts (CVU) for every user which are compatible with the banking system. MercadoLibre/MercadoPago is one of the top players in this space and use a banking API (https://apibank.bind.com.ar/ https://apibank.bind.com.ar/) behind the scene.
x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
>...I'd rather not need Facebook to conveniently pay for my loaf of bread. If you need any app to pay for a loaf of bread, then you have far more deep seated systemic issues than "OMG Facebook!!".
ramon 6y ago
I think this is what happens when you start to push for something without talking with local authorities, they need to remember that it's all about the politics and that's everywhere.

comechao 6y ago

If this is about Pix, and I believe it is, Government is killing competitors. If Pix is better, people will choose Pix, if WhatsApp is better, people will use it. Let's not force people to use a solution and create a monopoly controlled by the Government, again.

diegoholiveira 6y ago
PIX will not be a service to end-users, it'll create a standard where any service can offer instant payments and transfers. It will increase competition in the long run because if you want to open a payments fintech, you don't need to go in every bank or other fintech to do agreements about how your app will communicate with then, you just use the PIX to communicate with everyone.
- comechao 6y ago
  Sure, that's why I used the term "solution". I understand that PIX will be better than what we have today, but there's no reason to block other players and don't allow them to create their own payment solutions or products, based or not on PIX.
  - onli 6y ago
    Sure there is. The government has the responsibility to create a free market. If a proprietary standard wins, you have a monopoly without competition. If the government standard wins that enables interoperability, no company can block other competitors. Europe did the same and it worked.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      What stops the government from abusing this standard to impose arbitrary restrictions on spending?
      - rescbr 6y ago
        Nothing that cannot also be applied to Facebook. The Brazilian Central Bank has authority on money transfers, so whatever regulation they want to arbitrarily impose regarding this matter, they can do. Facebook is a registered company in Brazil, they were going to operate the payments platform through a card processor, etc, so directly or indirectly they are under the authority of the Central Bank. EDIT: by the way, regular banks and fintechs already have to be a participant in the Central Bank's payments system in order to settle funds. PIX is (also) a 24x7 implementation of the existing electronic money transfer system which only is available on working days.
    - felipeko 6y ago
      I don't think the Brazilian government has this responsibility as it is the most at fault for Brazil's lacking free market. Maybe when it becomes a champion on that, removing barriers of entry, protectionism, subsidies and it's public companies monopolies, then it can be a fair judge on this issue.
vslira 6y ago
GP's point (which I believe is naive, I suspect foul play from competitors, especially big banks) is that FB was trying to corner the market through network effects before an open standard took hold and the Central Bank acted to stop that from happening.
- cheez 6y ago
  And now PIX will never be implemented.
  - kawera 6y ago
    PIX is in test and will be available to all brazilians from october. Several payment operators are implementing it's protocol.
    - cheez 6y ago
      Hope you are right.
      - fredguth 6y ago
        In Brazil, we have had same-day money transfer (normally it takes 15 min) among accounts in different banks. Same bank accounts have "instantaneous" money transfer. PIX will make it simpler for newcomers.
baq 6y ago
government standard for electronic wire transfers beats checks (duh) or private standards designed to extract money from the market. bank implements pix, another bank implements pix, customers are happy because they can transfer money securely to each other. at least that's how this works in the EU.
Mengkudulangsat 6y ago
No matter how good PIX is, as a local standard it will never be able to do what Whatsap (may) be able to do - transact with foreigners.
- rescbr 6y ago
  Oh, this would be a whole can of worms that Facebook would not want to open. International transactions are very regulated in Brazil and certainly not only the Central Bank would be heavy with their hammer, but Receita Federal (tax authority) would also be very interested in this. When PayPal started operating in Brazil, they had to convert all Brazilian accounts held in USD to BRL, and there are some restrictions on currency exchange operations that accounts registered in other countries don't have.
webmobdev 6y ago
> If Pix is better, people will choose Pix, if WhatsApp is better, people will use it. Yes, let Facebook and Apple invent their own internet too, with no compatibility between them. Let's also allow Ford / GM to create their own roads exclusively for Ford / GM vehicles. /s This is not businesses we are talking about, it's public infrastructure. And banking is a public infrastructure.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  Have a little faith? Compuserve, Prodigy, AOL, and a raft of others tried to make "their own internet" in the 80s/90s and the open system won out.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    > Have a little faith? No, thank you. I am from India, a country that lost its independence and was ruled and looted as a colony by a corporate called the East India Company. I have no faith in or trust in corporates. In a healthy democracy, Government regulations and standards are a MUST to protect us from the greed of the corporates, and to create a level playing field. Facebook is an american company and I applaud the wisdom of the Brazil policy makers to make it abide by their country's rules.

throwaway3975 6y ago

The Bloomberg article that The Verge is referencing says that WhatsApp plans to implement PIX: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-23/brazil-s-central-bank-suspends-whatsapp-payments https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-23/brazi...

kawera 6y ago
Good. Then they can deploy their solution using a protocol available to all and not a closed platform made to lock the market. We've had enough of that, didn't we?
- Lt_Riza_Hawkeye 6y ago
  WhatsApp was always planning on implementing PIX. But PIX won't be available for at least another six months - so they went with the current system instead while they waited.
dang 6y ago
We've changed the URL to that from https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21301470/whatsapp-payments-brazil-suspended-central-bank-risk-regulators https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21301470/whatsapp-payment.... This is the third or fourth theverge.com submission we've had to do that for in the last couple days.
- darwinwhy 6y ago
  To be fair to the OP, they probably don't have a Bloomberg subscription.

centimeter 6y ago

> money transfers are going to be less complex, clunky and costly. You really think the Brazilian central bank is going to make a smooth, efficient, and cheap money transfer service? What reason do you have to expect that to work?

diegoholiveira 6y ago
> You really think the Brazilian central bank is going to make a smooth, efficient, and cheap money transfer service They will not do a transfer service, they will provide a specification that must be follow in order to provide instant payments and transfers. To be honest, our central bank is pretty good in create such specifications.
soneca 6y ago
As a Brazilian living in the US I can tell you that the TED system is already a smooth, efficient, and cheap money transfer service compared to the solutions here in the US. So I have total confidence that they are capable of creating a better yet version of it.
- danilocesar 6y ago
  As a Brazilian living in Canada, I can say the same.
  - f00zz 6y ago
    As a Brazilian living in Brazil I'm surprised that anyone would expect a service provided by the Brazilian government to be efficient, or even work at all. This Pix thing seems to cover more than inter-bank transfers, people are expected to use it for QR code-based mobile payments for instance.
    - EL_Loco 6y ago
      The HIV treatment program, provided by the brazilian government for free to everyone that needs it, has been very succesful and is a model to be followed. Not everything the government does is rotten, just a lot of it. "Throughout the 1990s, when the annual cost of drugs for AIDS treatment often exceeded US$10,000 per patient, the World Bank and other development agencies discouraged developing countries from implementing treatment programs, favoring “cost-effective” prevention over costly treatment. Brazil challenged this conventional wisdom and, despite World Bank objections, has provided free universal access to highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) for all people living with HIV/AIDS since 1996." source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782963/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782963/

harpratap 6y ago

> This new WhatsApp feature, to me, looked like a bold attempt to kill PIX at launch. I don't think so. FB is using UPI in India, they could have used PIX too. Looks like Brazilian government was just a bit late to the payment party and FB had already implemented something in-house in the meantime.

haolez 6y ago

As a Brazilian, I am not pleased. This will become just another tool for the government to create artificial difficulties and sell solutions to its closest "friends". Standards have been created without any government's help since forever.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
gcbw3 6y ago
What's the alternative? leave facebook do exactly it instead of the government? You speak like the free-for-all tax tools didn't work for you. Do you rather the US model? where you have to pay $100~300 every year for exactly the same tools from a single private company that has a de facto monopoly because of close ties to the government? Also, in the US, a transfer from your checking account (where you get your paycheck) to your credit card account (where credit card purchases show up) to pay up your monthly credit card bill, in the same bank, same client, you literally see both on the same screen on your internet bank, takes two to FIVE business day. Let that sink in when talking about US banking being archaic.
- lykr0n 6y ago
  > takes two to FIVE business day That's only the case if the credit card services are powered by a 3rd party. Chase, Wells Fargo, USBank, BECU, Alliant CU, BBVA, Citi, M&T, and others are all instant if you're paying from an account at that bank.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
    I think OP is talking about movement between banks. External transfer ( basically ACH ) between my banks is on average 5 days now. Last time I challenged them on this they used blanket 'fraud protection' as an excuse. When I started depositing cash as a way to deal with it, I got odd looks asking if the money is from my online business. I dislike banking lately. And I used to be that annoying guy who goes into branch to do some transactions. Point is, it really shouldn't take that long ( and I know for a fact it doean't ) to settle.

anthony_r 6y ago

And you're 100% sure that this is not just currency controls because the Brazilian Real is getting killed? From what I can tell - Brazil is going to Argentina, quickly :(

fredguth 6y ago
These currency controls are in place for decades and our current financial crisis has nothing to do with that.
splintercell 6y ago
It's absolutely that, and the only competition it killed is for upcoming stablecoin revolution in high inflation countries.

worldexplorer 6y ago

So PIX is like UPI(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface) in India?

wslh 6y ago

Even with all the economic struggles, Argentina was ahead many countries in the world regarding bank integrations. For years you can make immediate wire transfers between banks without any extra fee (beyond the taxes imposed by the state). If you want to create a digital wallet you don't need to be a bank, you can register as a payment processor and get virtual bank accounts (CVU) for every user which are compatible with the banking system. MercadoLibre/MercadoPago is one of the top players in this space and use a banking API (https://apibank.bind.com.ar/ https://apibank.bind.com.ar/) behind the scene.

x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago

>...I'd rather not need Facebook to conveniently pay for my loaf of bread. If you need any app to pay for a loaf of bread, then you have far more deep seated systemic issues than "OMG Facebook!!".

ramon 6y ago

I think this is what happens when you start to push for something without talking with local authorities, they need to remember that it's all about the politics and that's everywhere.