5 ms·

Reading some of the comments in this thread, it's amazing that the scientific study of climate and the atmosphere has become a matter of political identity.

by kitd 6y ago

hkai 6y ago
What do you think is the reason? Some of the arguments that I heard include the suggestion that some of the radical environmental plans may cause serious losses of jobs and tax revenue, and increase poverty, while other heavy polluters would get ahead and dominate the world's politics and economy.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  The fact that it is inconvenient doesn't invalidate the reality.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- travisporter 6y ago
  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair But more charitably, I could also see people going past worrying to denial/dismissal
  - soupfordummies 6y ago
    Very small sample size and a different issue to be sure, but with people I've interacted with that dispute the validity/importance of the Coronavirus, they are being driven primarily by denial/dismissal. To accept it and and work from there to adapt and mitigate is terrifying. I think you can probably say the same about climate change. Additionally, I think you could draw a line that these denials are influenced by those protecting their "salaries"
  - fortran77 6y ago
    And it checks out, too. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/
- mritun 6y ago
  Yes. Coal industry said that. Guess what- the coal industry is going out of business anyway. Those dinosaurs will die anyway - the problem is with “jobs will be lost” argument they are also dragging the future of rest of the humanity with them.
  - raarts 6y ago
    Not anytime soon. China, India and other countries are planning a huge number of new coal plants. Just as much capacity as currently installed in Europe in total. Coal's life may be limited, but in the coming 50 years it's just going to grow significantly. https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants
kbutler 6y ago
It is a shame - but it has always been a political issue, politicized by the global warming advocates. 1988 Canadian environment minister: No matter if the science of global warming is all phony…climate change [provides] the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world. Many more https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/02/05/in-their-own-words-climate-alarmists-debunk-their-science/#3254605168a3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/02/05/in-their-o... It's a "bootleggers and baptists" combination of those who want to remake the world governance and true believers who want to save the world from the perceived danger.
jmnicolas 6y ago
Given the "quality" of the models established for the COVID pandemic, I think it's not outlandish to say that scientists should alarm less and study more. If we can't model correctly a "simple" pandemic, how can we model something as complex as climate. I'm tired of the faith in scientists. They're just human : they can make mistakes, they can be bought and more often than not they can delude themselves.
- Daishiman 6y ago
  Climate models have a well-understood track record. Judging the utility of models is useless if you don't prepend them with a range of certainty. Anyone who knew about pandemic models knew from the start that there's a lot of unknown underlying variables, and thus initial models made too many assumptions. Climate models have been running for decades of fine iteration, with fairly well understood limitations.
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    > Climate models have a well-understood track record. Disease vectors and management are less well understood, or better? I would argue, they are better understood and the understanding is deeper (to the core of the physics). Climate modeling relies on large forces that vary a bit, but have not had to withstand any variability at the scales predicted by climate change alarmists (ie hocket stick off the charts) enough to understand how most aspects of the environment will resolve over time, imo. Climate and medicine is not comparable at a predictive level.
    - Daishiman 6y ago
      Disease vectors are well understood from the theoretical point of view, but rely on variables that can only be explained by sociological and anthropological notions that are not only extremely difficult to quantify, but also that can change dynamically as societies react in response to pandemics. Physical models may be extremely complex but physical constants do not change unpredictably over time.
soupfordummies 6y ago
As well as the significance, danger and precautions that come with our current pandemic. Two of our current greatest threats threats to human life reduced to political wedge issues.
- alecco 6y ago
  You are saying Coronavirus with <500k deaths worldwide (0.007%) is a "greatests threat threats to human life". Sure, we should take some precautions from now on, but this level of hyperbole is ridiculous. If anything, this pandemic was a good wake up call to be a bit more careful in our modern super-connected world. We should prepare in case a truly dangerous bug comes along. The hyperbole actually goes against this, see Cry Wolf.
  - mritun 6y ago
    All who were not killed by covid are not happily jumping around. You see the death stats and calculate a %. Once a medicine is invented the stats of injuries (both physical and financial) would trickle in. Several survivors have lost legs, lung and kidney function. SARS and swine flu were the wake up calls. This is real deal. And yes, if we don’t learn next will be worse.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      Some covid survivors sustained life-altering damage. But most did not. Exaggerating the impact of covid is only going to throw more fuel on the fire for people inclined towards viewing the whole thing with a great deal of skepticism. All these white lies and misleading statements add up and the result won't be improved public discourse.
    - prestonh 6y ago
      Why do you believe the next will be worse? Covid is already a global pandemic and will likely reach a majority of the global population before going away.
  - Supermancho 6y ago

Reading some of the comments in this thread, it's amazing that the scientific study of climate and the atmosphere has become a matter of political identity.

by kitd 6y ago

Reading some of the comments in this thread, it's amazing that the scientific study of climate and the atmosphere has become a matter of political identity.

hkai 6y ago

What do you think is the reason? Some of the arguments that I heard include the suggestion that some of the radical environmental plans may cause serious losses of jobs and tax revenue, and increase poverty, while other heavy polluters would get ahead and dominate the world's politics and economy.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
The fact that it is inconvenient doesn't invalidate the reality.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
travisporter 6y ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair But more charitably, I could also see people going past worrying to denial/dismissal
- soupfordummies 6y ago
  Very small sample size and a different issue to be sure, but with people I've interacted with that dispute the validity/importance of the Coronavirus, they are being driven primarily by denial/dismissal. To accept it and and work from there to adapt and mitigate is terrifying. I think you can probably say the same about climate change. Additionally, I think you could draw a line that these denials are influenced by those protecting their "salaries"
- fortran77 6y ago
  And it checks out, too. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/
mritun 6y ago
Yes. Coal industry said that. Guess what- the coal industry is going out of business anyway. Those dinosaurs will die anyway - the problem is with “jobs will be lost” argument they are also dragging the future of rest of the humanity with them.
- raarts 6y ago
  Not anytime soon. China, India and other countries are planning a huge number of new coal plants. Just as much capacity as currently installed in Europe in total. Coal's life may be limited, but in the coming 50 years it's just going to grow significantly. https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants

kbutler 6y ago

It is a shame - but it has always been a political issue, politicized by the global warming advocates. 1988 Canadian environment minister: No matter if the science of global warming is all phony…climate change [provides] the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world. Many more https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/02/05/in-their-own-words-climate-alarmists-debunk-their-science/#3254605168a3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/02/05/in-their-o... It's a "bootleggers and baptists" combination of those who want to remake the world governance and true believers who want to save the world from the perceived danger.

jmnicolas 6y ago

Given the "quality" of the models established for the COVID pandemic, I think it's not outlandish to say that scientists should alarm less and study more. If we can't model correctly a "simple" pandemic, how can we model something as complex as climate. I'm tired of the faith in scientists. They're just human : they can make mistakes, they can be bought and more often than not they can delude themselves.

Daishiman 6y ago
Climate models have a well-understood track record. Judging the utility of models is useless if you don't prepend them with a range of certainty. Anyone who knew about pandemic models knew from the start that there's a lot of unknown underlying variables, and thus initial models made too many assumptions. Climate models have been running for decades of fine iteration, with fairly well understood limitations.
- Supermancho 6y ago
  > Climate models have a well-understood track record. Disease vectors and management are less well understood, or better? I would argue, they are better understood and the understanding is deeper (to the core of the physics). Climate modeling relies on large forces that vary a bit, but have not had to withstand any variability at the scales predicted by climate change alarmists (ie hocket stick off the charts) enough to understand how most aspects of the environment will resolve over time, imo. Climate and medicine is not comparable at a predictive level.
  - Daishiman 6y ago
    Disease vectors are well understood from the theoretical point of view, but rely on variables that can only be explained by sociological and anthropological notions that are not only extremely difficult to quantify, but also that can change dynamically as societies react in response to pandemics. Physical models may be extremely complex but physical constants do not change unpredictably over time.

soupfordummies 6y ago

As well as the significance, danger and precautions that come with our current pandemic. Two of our current greatest threats threats to human life reduced to political wedge issues.

alecco 6y ago
You are saying Coronavirus with <500k deaths worldwide (0.007%) is a "greatests threat threats to human life". Sure, we should take some precautions from now on, but this level of hyperbole is ridiculous. If anything, this pandemic was a good wake up call to be a bit more careful in our modern super-connected world. We should prepare in case a truly dangerous bug comes along. The hyperbole actually goes against this, see Cry Wolf.
- mritun 6y ago
  All who were not killed by covid are not happily jumping around. You see the death stats and calculate a %. Once a medicine is invented the stats of injuries (both physical and financial) would trickle in. Several survivors have lost legs, lung and kidney function. SARS and swine flu were the wake up calls. This is real deal. And yes, if we don’t learn next will be worse.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Some covid survivors sustained life-altering damage. But most did not. Exaggerating the impact of covid is only going to throw more fuel on the fire for people inclined towards viewing the whole thing with a great deal of skepticism. All these white lies and misleading statements add up and the result won't be improved public discourse.
  - prestonh 6y ago
    Why do you believe the next will be worse? Covid is already a global pandemic and will likely reach a majority of the global population before going away.
- Supermancho 6y ago