8 ms·

You get to see how the sausage is made in a developed country which is, by far, an outlier in its crime-rate. I'm all for increasing police de-escalation traini

You get to see how the sausage is made in a developed country which is, by far, an outlier in its crime-rate. I'm all for increasing police de-escalation training and policing standards in-general, I just don't think it will solve the problems that the protestors want to be solved when the crime rate is as high as it is. Ultimately, the cops are going to get jaded and stressed in ways that cops in other nations would not, and they will always prioritize their life and well-being over that of the perpetrator. I was travelling a few years ago, and hanging out in the hotel bar in Portland, Maine, and I listened in on a heated conversation between some guy and a lady whose husband is a cop. They were discussing police brutality and the protests at the time (Baltimore maybe?), and the lady's point was basically "do whatever you want with regulating police behaviour, but I will take my husband coming home at the end of the night over anything else" It's possible with the falling rates of crime, this may just solve itself (though increasing police training and standards is a good thing regardless).

halostatue 6y ago
The crime rate in America is relatively low according to official data: - https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/09/30/new-fbi-data-violent-crime-still-falling https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/09/30/new-fbi-data-v... - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about... The latter indicates that, depending on which data you use, the violent crime rate dropped 50–75% between 1993 and 2018 (the larger drop is from BJS, which has some methodology for estimating unreported crimes). The property crime rate dropped at 50–70% over the same time period. Various actors in society—police gangs (sorry, “unions”), public prosecutors, for-profit prison operators, and straight up fascists—have been stoking fears of Americans for decades such that there are people who genuinely believe that America (as a whole) has more crime even when the numbers completely put a lie to that. I’m certain that the leaks from this will reinforce what we should already know: America is increasingly a surveillance state of its police against its people, that the police rarely end up doing the jobs that they are nominally hired for (solving crimes), and that there has been an overall reduction in crime but an increase in policing outsized compared to the value police forces provide. Don’t believe the bollocks.
- treis 6y ago
  You're conflating rate of change with the current number. Yes, crime is dropping but the US is a big outlier in violent crime compared to any other large 1st world country. There are 5.35 murders per 100k in the US. The closest comparable country is Canada at 1.68.
  - pdonis 6y ago
    More precisely, certain areas of the US (parts of certain large cities) are a big outlier in violent crime compared to any other large 1st world country. The rest of the US is not.
    - treis 6y ago
      This is a pretty nebulous statement, but I don't think there's a lot of truth here. "Certain areas" makes it seem like the discrepancy is contained, but it's not. Pretty much every decent sized city in the US has a murder rate at least several times greater than any major European city. If you compare a rich suburb to Europe's average then yeah, it's probably comparable. But any sort of apples to apples comparison will show that the U.S. has a much higher violent crime rate.
      - pdonis 6y ago
        > Pretty much every decent sized city in the US has a murder rate at least several times greater than any major European city Nope. As a poster elsewhere in this thread noted, it's less than the top 100 cities in the US. There are a lot more than 100 "decent sized" cities in the US.
        treis 6y ago
        That was me, and again "decent sized" is nebulous. Either way, you said: >certain areas of the US (parts of certain large cities) So unless we're counting Boise at 220k and ~100 others like it as "parts of certain large cities" then your statement isn't accurate.
raxxorrax 6y ago
If cops are quitting like they seem to do currently, you will certainly get the most corrupt police force you have ever had if you plan to quickly replace them. Not saying the current one is perfect, although its numbers were surprisingly good compared to the stereotype of being cowboy cops. Even with a certain number of unreported cases, say we had 20% of those. But the state of the police and its militarization is due to policies of the last decade, meaning that deescalation wasn't tried at all. The former terrorism has become domestic terrorism, something early critics predicted (wasn't even hard). The loudest voices we hear from seem to not be able to hold a thought, because the other side needs to be silenced first. Ultimately I believe many cops will quit due to lacking support of their governors or president. But I doubt we will see significant changes. Private security will become an even more booming market. Police departments will lack funding but will be sold expensive riot gear.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> I'm all for increasing police de-escalation training and policing standards in-general, I just don't think it will solve the problems that the protestors want to be solved when the crime rate is as high as it is. Neither do the protestors, which is why they aren't out chanting “increase police funding for additional deescalation training and increased standards”. Dismantle/defund/abolish isn't about incremental training and increased standards, it's about radical reorganization of basic services and rethinking the role of armed law enforcement within that spectrum.
TheNorthman 6y ago
You don't seem to understand the argument made by protesters. The argument is not that the police doesn't solve crime, it's that they cause it. You observe an outlier but fail to put it into context. The police in the US aren't comparable to police in other western countries. As a result, comparing crime rates is disingenuous. The lady in your anecdote is also painfully disingenuous. Being a police officer isn't really dangerous. The death rate is much higher for landscapers, bartenders, taxi drivers, etc.. Roofers have a mortality rate of 4x the police. Even then, most police officers die in traffic accidents, not homicide [0]. [0]: https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-die-on-the-job-than-police-patrol-officers/ https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-...
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >You don't seem to understand the argument made by protesters. One issue is that there is no single entity pushing a single policy. You have a lot of people saying a lot of things. >The argument is not that the police doesn't solve crime, it's that they cause it. Yeah. That's insanity. Is that backed up by any study? What does that even mean? There is no country on earth without a police department. >The police in the US aren't comparable to police in other western countries. I agree with that, and one big reason is that the American crime-rate is an outlier compared to other western countries. >he death rate is much higher for landscapers, bartenders, taxi drivers, etc.. Roofers have a mortality rate of 4x the police. Sure - but there is a different level of stress that comes around when your death can be caused by another human versus accidents and negligence. The death-rate of soldiers in Iraq wasn't very high by percentage either and yet it resulted in a lot of PTSD in soldiers that weren't even casualties. The stresses that cops experience are closer to active military servicemen rather than landscapers - wouldn't you say? I remember watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g which shows you how quickly things can escalate especially when you're dealing with tense situations. That's what cops have in the back of their mind, for good or bad. And if you're working in a high-crime area, it's going to affect you. Unlike roofers and landscapers, the police are also dealing with the ugliest sides of humanity. They are called in to deal with murder and rape and abuse all the time. Having said that, this is a good argument for INCREASED investment in police departments, namely the increasing and continual training for police officers in dealing with high-stress situations and de-escalation tactics. For example, each month, each police officer should take 2 or 3 days just for this kind of training. You can also raise standards for admissions. Those are all good policies, and though expensive still, cheaper than social strife.
jfengel 6y ago
It's exactly that attitude to policing that's the root of all this. Yes, we all want our loved ones coming home at the end of the day. But when you go out with the assumption that everybody is trying to kill you, everybody treats you with suspicion and fear. If you're looking for a place to break that cycle, it's gonna have to start with not reflexively defending police who have clearly committed murder. Those Baltimore riots were sparked because a man who was in custody suffered injuries that could not have been caused any other way except by the police who held him, and all of them were acquitted. When people see that the system is intent on protecting the police, that means a lot of people aren't going to care whether that woman's husband makes it home or not. Crime has been falling at the same time as police misconduct (not just the actual abuses, but the protection around them) has become more visible. Somebody needs to de-escalate it, and that would be a great place to start.
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  Yeah, this is probably controversial but I think the police should basically be the bullet sponges for the rest of society. Right now they endanger more lives than they protect, and they’re not even particularly good at dealing with violent crime (you have better than a coin flip odds of getting away with murder in most cities). The vast majority (around 95%) of police calls don’t involve violent crime at all. I believe most police should be unarmed. If someone attacks them, their job should be to run away and call for backup. Use body cameras to collect evidence to track violent offenders down later. And in order to be armed, an officer should have a 4-year degree that includes a whole lot of training in criminal law. US troops operating in Kandahar had far more restrictions on use of force than US police do. And people there were actively hunting them. We treat our own citizens worse than foreign enemies, which really needs to change. A big reason for this is that the perceived “enemy” (read: black people) cannot just blend in with the rest of society because of their skin color. That’s pretty fucked up IMO.
  - Trill-I-Am 6y ago
    How are rural communities with low budgets going to meet that hiring standard?
BurningFrog 6y ago
I think you're missing the main problem: US Police is above the law. They can and do break most any law at will, without consequence. Any "Law & Order" fan will tell you crime needs to not pay for people to behave civilized. For US Police, crime does pay.
mseidl 6y ago
Crime has dropped by around half over the last 40-50 years so why are there so many people in prison now? I mean it's mind bogging. Plus with how fucked up the prison system is in the US.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >Crime has dropped by around half over the last 40-50 years so why are there so many people in prison now? I can think of one reason ... high incarceration rates lead to lower crime. I'm being facetious, but I suspect that has something to do with it. There are other factors no doubt. Freakonomics claims abortion was partially responsible, I read somewhere video games are partially responsible (i.e. incentive to stay home instead of going out). I've also read that higher lead levels in air and water in the past may be responsible for higher crime rates, etc. I'm sure there are a lot of factors that explain the lower crime-rate. The problem for you is that cops aren't responsible for the crime rate. They are called to deal with it. >Plus with how fucked up the prison system is in the US. You don't actually think the vast majority of people in State or Federal prisons are actually innocent do you? (Because they aren't). Another myth is that there is some huge proportion of inmates serving time for non-violent drug offences and drug possession - that's not true either. Almost nobody goes to prison for simple drug possession or low-level drug offences (prisons are too full for that). Those chargers are usually pleaded down from more serious violent charges. Having said that, US prison sentences are also an outlier, but that's a double-edged sword too. Harvey Weinstein was sentenced to 23 years in prison for sexual assault and rape (third degree). Having spent time abroad and having family all over the place, in most jurisdictions, he would not get any prison term or would be paroled within a short amount of time. I see this dichotomy in American thinking all the time. There are calls to lower prison sentences, while at the same time accused individuals (who are usually unlikable - like Weinstein) have the same people calling for maximum sentences so those individuals spend years behind bars. Reducing prison sentences does necessarily imply murderers, rapists, child molesters, would be out in relatively short amount of time (10-15 years typically, if you compare to prison terms in countries like Canada for comparable offenses) - are you OK with that?
  - mseidl 6y ago
UncleMeat 6y ago
This is on purpose. Racism deliberately enables a narrative that allows police to murder black Americans. Step 1: deny jobs and education Step 2: leverage racist biases among police Step 3: criminalize drugs “Look at all this crime! America is so unsafe. We need military equipment and chokeholds so we can go crush skulls.”
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  How exactly the education in the US is denied based on race? I cannot talk about rural schools, but city schools are very well funded, pretty much all large cities have decent libraries and tons of free extracurricular stuff for kids of all ages.
  - tehwebguy 6y ago
    There are some very big picture items to read up on (including redlining, you can google this) and some individual level items (head to twitter or somewhere that you can read individual accounts of black students' experiences with white educators).
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    > How exactly the education in the US is denied based on race? Two examples of many: Evidence suggests that teachers are less likely to identify bright minority students for placement in accelerated programs. Evidence suggests that teachers are more likely to treat minority students who "act out" as problem students and place them in remedial programs rather than finding solutions.
coliveira 6y ago
Except that we are protesting not because police is trying to defend themselves, but because they are killing people who are posing no threat, and using self-defense as a convenient excuse to kill.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  No one rioted when Mohammed Noor shot Justine Damond.
  - anigbrowl 6y ago
    Maybe they should have, instead of holding a vigil and a march. If they had yelled at cops and the DA they might have seen faster progress, rather than it taking 9 months to charge him.
  - tehwebguy 6y ago
    I don't know what riot means to you, but: 1. There wasn't an 8:46 video showing Noor murder her (no video publicly released until trial?). 2. The PM of Australia immediately denounced it and called for action. 3. BLM protested the shooting and failure to immediately charge Noor in the streets of Minneapolis. 4. The police chief resigned almost immediately.
xxpor 6y ago
>You get to see how the sausage is made in a developed country which is, by far, an outlier in its crime-rate. I don't think that's actually true. I'll have to find the stats, but IIRC the number of raw crimes is comparable between Western Europe and the US, but in the US the crime is WAY deadlier due to all of the guns. Canada is somewhere in the middle.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  IIRC the number of raw crimes is comparable between Western Europe and the US, but in the US the crime is WAY deadlier due to all of the guns. Canada is somewhere in the middle. It’s hotspots. Take out Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC and maybe New Orleans then even gun crime in the US is no worse than Europe.
  - treis 6y ago
    That's not true. Berlin's murder rate is 1.8 per 100k people. If I count right that puts them at 96th between Santa Clara, CA and Boise, ID: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-york-crime-free-day-deadliest-cities-worldwide https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-yo...
    - pdonis 6y ago
      > If I count right that puts them at 96th between Santa Clara, CA and Boise, ID First, you're only looking at cities. Lots of the US population does not live in cities. Second, even just looking at cities, do you know how many cities there are in the US? (A lot more than 96.) All this is telling you is that, as far as crime rates go, the US is basically two countries: certain large cities (high crime rate) and everywhere else (low crime rate).
      - macspoofing 6y ago
        >Lots of the US population does not live in cities. Where do you think these police abuses (and subsequent protests) are coming from? Pretty much exclusively from cities.
tehwebguy 6y ago
This random, nameless person’s false equivalency about her husband means nothing in this conversation other than to point out how indoctrinated she is.

halostatue 6y ago

The crime rate in America is relatively low according to official data: - https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/09/30/new-fbi-data-violent-crime-still-falling https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/09/30/new-fbi-data-v... - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about... The latter indicates that, depending on which data you use, the violent crime rate dropped 50–75% between 1993 and 2018 (the larger drop is from BJS, which has some methodology for estimating unreported crimes). The property crime rate dropped at 50–70% over the same time period. Various actors in society—police gangs (sorry, “unions”), public prosecutors, for-profit prison operators, and straight up fascists—have been stoking fears of Americans for decades such that there are people who genuinely believe that America (as a whole) has more crime even when the numbers completely put a lie to that. I’m certain that the leaks from this will reinforce what we should already know: America is increasingly a surveillance state of its police against its people, that the police rarely end up doing the jobs that they are nominally hired for (solving crimes), and that there has been an overall reduction in crime but an increase in policing outsized compared to the value police forces provide. Don’t believe the bollocks.

treis 6y ago
You're conflating rate of change with the current number. Yes, crime is dropping but the US is a big outlier in violent crime compared to any other large 1st world country. There are 5.35 murders per 100k in the US. The closest comparable country is Canada at 1.68.
- pdonis 6y ago
  More precisely, certain areas of the US (parts of certain large cities) are a big outlier in violent crime compared to any other large 1st world country. The rest of the US is not.
  - treis 6y ago
    This is a pretty nebulous statement, but I don't think there's a lot of truth here. "Certain areas" makes it seem like the discrepancy is contained, but it's not. Pretty much every decent sized city in the US has a murder rate at least several times greater than any major European city. If you compare a rich suburb to Europe's average then yeah, it's probably comparable. But any sort of apples to apples comparison will show that the U.S. has a much higher violent crime rate.
    - pdonis 6y ago
      > Pretty much every decent sized city in the US has a murder rate at least several times greater than any major European city Nope. As a poster elsewhere in this thread noted, it's less than the top 100 cities in the US. There are a lot more than 100 "decent sized" cities in the US.
      - treis 6y ago
        That was me, and again "decent sized" is nebulous. Either way, you said: >certain areas of the US (parts of certain large cities) So unless we're counting Boise at 220k and ~100 others like it as "parts of certain large cities" then your statement isn't accurate.

raxxorrax 6y ago

If cops are quitting like they seem to do currently, you will certainly get the most corrupt police force you have ever had if you plan to quickly replace them. Not saying the current one is perfect, although its numbers were surprisingly good compared to the stereotype of being cowboy cops. Even with a certain number of unreported cases, say we had 20% of those. But the state of the police and its militarization is due to policies of the last decade, meaning that deescalation wasn't tried at all. The former terrorism has become domestic terrorism, something early critics predicted (wasn't even hard). The loudest voices we hear from seem to not be able to hold a thought, because the other side needs to be silenced first. Ultimately I believe many cops will quit due to lacking support of their governors or president. But I doubt we will see significant changes. Private security will become an even more booming market. Police departments will lack funding but will be sold expensive riot gear.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> I'm all for increasing police de-escalation training and policing standards in-general, I just don't think it will solve the problems that the protestors want to be solved when the crime rate is as high as it is. Neither do the protestors, which is why they aren't out chanting “increase police funding for additional deescalation training and increased standards”. Dismantle/defund/abolish isn't about incremental training and increased standards, it's about radical reorganization of basic services and rethinking the role of armed law enforcement within that spectrum.

TheNorthman 6y ago

You don't seem to understand the argument made by protesters. The argument is not that the police doesn't solve crime, it's that they cause it. You observe an outlier but fail to put it into context. The police in the US aren't comparable to police in other western countries. As a result, comparing crime rates is disingenuous. The lady in your anecdote is also painfully disingenuous. Being a police officer isn't really dangerous. The death rate is much higher for landscapers, bartenders, taxi drivers, etc.. Roofers have a mortality rate of 4x the police. Even then, most police officers die in traffic accidents, not homicide [0]. [0]: https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-die-on-the-job-than-police-patrol-officers/ https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-...

macspoofing 6y ago
>You don't seem to understand the argument made by protesters. One issue is that there is no single entity pushing a single policy. You have a lot of people saying a lot of things. >The argument is not that the police doesn't solve crime, it's that they cause it. Yeah. That's insanity. Is that backed up by any study? What does that even mean? There is no country on earth without a police department. >The police in the US aren't comparable to police in other western countries. I agree with that, and one big reason is that the American crime-rate is an outlier compared to other western countries. >he death rate is much higher for landscapers, bartenders, taxi drivers, etc.. Roofers have a mortality rate of 4x the police. Sure - but there is a different level of stress that comes around when your death can be caused by another human versus accidents and negligence. The death-rate of soldiers in Iraq wasn't very high by percentage either and yet it resulted in a lot of PTSD in soldiers that weren't even casualties. The stresses that cops experience are closer to active military servicemen rather than landscapers - wouldn't you say? I remember watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g which shows you how quickly things can escalate especially when you're dealing with tense situations. That's what cops have in the back of their mind, for good or bad. And if you're working in a high-crime area, it's going to affect you. Unlike roofers and landscapers, the police are also dealing with the ugliest sides of humanity. They are called in to deal with murder and rape and abuse all the time. Having said that, this is a good argument for INCREASED investment in police departments, namely the increasing and continual training for police officers in dealing with high-stress situations and de-escalation tactics. For example, each month, each police officer should take 2 or 3 days just for this kind of training. You can also raise standards for admissions. Those are all good policies, and though expensive still, cheaper than social strife.

jfengel 6y ago

It's exactly that attitude to policing that's the root of all this. Yes, we all want our loved ones coming home at the end of the day. But when you go out with the assumption that everybody is trying to kill you, everybody treats you with suspicion and fear. If you're looking for a place to break that cycle, it's gonna have to start with not reflexively defending police who have clearly committed murder. Those Baltimore riots were sparked because a man who was in custody suffered injuries that could not have been caused any other way except by the police who held him, and all of them were acquitted. When people see that the system is intent on protecting the police, that means a lot of people aren't going to care whether that woman's husband makes it home or not. Crime has been falling at the same time as police misconduct (not just the actual abuses, but the protection around them) has become more visible. Somebody needs to de-escalate it, and that would be a great place to start.

wayoutthere 6y ago
Yeah, this is probably controversial but I think the police should basically be the bullet sponges for the rest of society. Right now they endanger more lives than they protect, and they’re not even particularly good at dealing with violent crime (you have better than a coin flip odds of getting away with murder in most cities). The vast majority (around 95%) of police calls don’t involve violent crime at all. I believe most police should be unarmed. If someone attacks them, their job should be to run away and call for backup. Use body cameras to collect evidence to track violent offenders down later. And in order to be armed, an officer should have a 4-year degree that includes a whole lot of training in criminal law. US troops operating in Kandahar had far more restrictions on use of force than US police do. And people there were actively hunting them. We treat our own citizens worse than foreign enemies, which really needs to change. A big reason for this is that the perceived “enemy” (read: black people) cannot just blend in with the rest of society because of their skin color. That’s pretty fucked up IMO.
- Trill-I-Am 6y ago
  How are rural communities with low budgets going to meet that hiring standard?

BurningFrog 6y ago

I think you're missing the main problem: US Police is above the law. They can and do break most any law at will, without consequence. Any "Law & Order" fan will tell you crime needs to not pay for people to behave civilized. For US Police, crime does pay.

mseidl 6y ago

Crime has dropped by around half over the last 40-50 years so why are there so many people in prison now? I mean it's mind bogging. Plus with how fucked up the prison system is in the US.

macspoofing 6y ago
>Crime has dropped by around half over the last 40-50 years so why are there so many people in prison now? I can think of one reason ... high incarceration rates lead to lower crime. I'm being facetious, but I suspect that has something to do with it. There are other factors no doubt. Freakonomics claims abortion was partially responsible, I read somewhere video games are partially responsible (i.e. incentive to stay home instead of going out). I've also read that higher lead levels in air and water in the past may be responsible for higher crime rates, etc. I'm sure there are a lot of factors that explain the lower crime-rate. The problem for you is that cops aren't responsible for the crime rate. They are called to deal with it. >Plus with how fucked up the prison system is in the US. You don't actually think the vast majority of people in State or Federal prisons are actually innocent do you? (Because they aren't). Another myth is that there is some huge proportion of inmates serving time for non-violent drug offences and drug possession - that's not true either. Almost nobody goes to prison for simple drug possession or low-level drug offences (prisons are too full for that). Those chargers are usually pleaded down from more serious violent charges. Having said that, US prison sentences are also an outlier, but that's a double-edged sword too. Harvey Weinstein was sentenced to 23 years in prison for sexual assault and rape (third degree). Having spent time abroad and having family all over the place, in most jurisdictions, he would not get any prison term or would be paroled within a short amount of time. I see this dichotomy in American thinking all the time. There are calls to lower prison sentences, while at the same time accused individuals (who are usually unlikable - like Weinstein) have the same people calling for maximum sentences so those individuals spend years behind bars. Reducing prison sentences does necessarily imply murderers, rapists, child molesters, would be out in relatively short amount of time (10-15 years typically, if you compare to prison terms in countries like Canada for comparable offenses) - are you OK with that?
- mseidl 6y ago

UncleMeat 6y ago

This is on purpose. Racism deliberately enables a narrative that allows police to murder black Americans. Step 1: deny jobs and education Step 2: leverage racist biases among police Step 3: criminalize drugs “Look at all this crime! America is so unsafe. We need military equipment and chokeholds so we can go crush skulls.”

AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
How exactly the education in the US is denied based on race? I cannot talk about rural schools, but city schools are very well funded, pretty much all large cities have decent libraries and tons of free extracurricular stuff for kids of all ages.
- tehwebguy 6y ago
  There are some very big picture items to read up on (including redlining, you can google this) and some individual level items (head to twitter or somewhere that you can read individual accounts of black students' experiences with white educators).
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  > How exactly the education in the US is denied based on race? Two examples of many: Evidence suggests that teachers are less likely to identify bright minority students for placement in accelerated programs. Evidence suggests that teachers are more likely to treat minority students who "act out" as problem students and place them in remedial programs rather than finding solutions.

coliveira 6y ago

Except that we are protesting not because police is trying to defend themselves, but because they are killing people who are posing no threat, and using self-defense as a convenient excuse to kill.

goatinaboat 6y ago
No one rioted when Mohammed Noor shot Justine Damond.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  Maybe they should have, instead of holding a vigil and a march. If they had yelled at cops and the DA they might have seen faster progress, rather than it taking 9 months to charge him.
- tehwebguy 6y ago
  I don't know what riot means to you, but: 1. There wasn't an 8:46 video showing Noor murder her (no video publicly released until trial?). 2. The PM of Australia immediately denounced it and called for action. 3. BLM protested the shooting and failure to immediately charge Noor in the streets of Minneapolis. 4. The police chief resigned almost immediately.

xxpor 6y ago

>You get to see how the sausage is made in a developed country which is, by far, an outlier in its crime-rate. I don't think that's actually true. I'll have to find the stats, but IIRC the number of raw crimes is comparable between Western Europe and the US, but in the US the crime is WAY deadlier due to all of the guns. Canada is somewhere in the middle.

goatinaboat 6y ago
IIRC the number of raw crimes is comparable between Western Europe and the US, but in the US the crime is WAY deadlier due to all of the guns. Canada is somewhere in the middle. It’s hotspots. Take out Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC and maybe New Orleans then even gun crime in the US is no worse than Europe.
- treis 6y ago
  That's not true. Berlin's murder rate is 1.8 per 100k people. If I count right that puts them at 96th between Santa Clara, CA and Boise, ID: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-york-crime-free-day-deadliest-cities-worldwide https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-yo...
  - pdonis 6y ago
    > If I count right that puts them at 96th between Santa Clara, CA and Boise, ID First, you're only looking at cities. Lots of the US population does not live in cities. Second, even just looking at cities, do you know how many cities there are in the US? (A lot more than 96.) All this is telling you is that, as far as crime rates go, the US is basically two countries: certain large cities (high crime rate) and everywhere else (low crime rate).
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      >Lots of the US population does not live in cities. Where do you think these police abuses (and subsequent protests) are coming from? Pretty much exclusively from cities.

tehwebguy 6y ago

This random, nameless person’s false equivalency about her husband means nothing in this conversation other than to point out how indoctrinated she is.