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"to wish that the average engineer would suddenly begin to care about using his work day productively." I know no one likes to hear this but if you must pick a

"to wish that the average engineer would suddenly begin to care about using his work day productively." I know no one likes to hear this but if you must pick a pronoun for a hypothetical "average" engineer you should use "they" or "she" to help readers be more mindful of the unconscious bias in our field.

_6qu6 6y ago
Policing the language, unfortunately, does not bring change to the situation. Everyone who has lived in a totalitarian state knows this. “Formerly no one was allowed to think freely; now it is permitted, but no one is capable of it any more. Now people want to think only what they are supposed to think, and this they consider freedom.” Oswald Spengler
- wldlyinaccurate 6y ago
  Chill out, friend. Parent comment kindly suggested the use of a gender neutral noun to make the passage more inclusive. No one is forcing you to use nonexclusionary language. If you want to exclude over half of the world's population over fears of an invented oppressive regime then you are most welcome to.
  - _6qu6 6y ago
    This is a somewhat aggressive distortion of my words. I was merely referring to the fact that forcing the use of incorrect English will not help in the current situation of gender imbalance. And a reference to the "unconscious bias in our field" in the parent comment needs concrete citations and evidence to be of value to the discussion. How I truly wish there were more women in the field! But very few choose that profession, unfortunately. That is sad... I am not ready, however, to speculate about the reasons, since I don't have enough information. That is the reason for the reference to oppressive regimes - only there do people cripple the language to keep everything neutral and soulless, and only there do people make unverified assertions about non-existent enemies and conspirators.
    - shuntress 6y ago
      Using "she" instead of "he" is neither incorrect English nor does it cripple the language. I'm not going to spoon-feed you in a vain attempt to get a seat at the table for a discussion you clearly don't want to have. Please investigate unconscious bias for yourself.
      - _6qu6 6y ago
        You're too quick to make assumptions about people who speak with you. English grammar, for example, does not have any facilities to create gender-neutral pronouns for every single noun (only for some). It's just a fact whether we like it or not. German, for instance, is more flexible in this regard. But languages evolve over centuries, and changes to grammar cannot be organically introduced to suit a new thinking on social life (however reasonable it is).
      - allarm 6y ago
        Please refrain from overly aggressive responses like this. Hint: if you believe in something, it doesn’t automatically make it right.
    - aparsons 6y ago
      Unfortunately, it’s far too common to see your words twisted if you do not conform to some groups’ views on social justice. You made a good and valid point, don’t let others bully you into changing your beliefs.
      - _6qu6 6y ago
        What's even more unfortunate is that my views generally align with theirs - liberal and democratic. Yet those groups often very quickly put down any serious discussion, even if there is a minor and delicate criticism of their assertions. We should be more calm, especially in matters where we generally agree.
    - claudiawerner 6y ago
      >forcing the use of incorrect English What "incorrect English" is being suggested? If it's the singular "they", then you must at least concede there's some debate about it, but most scholars have no grammatical problem with it. Using the term "forced" here also does a bit of a disservice to actual cases of compelled speech and restriction of speech (by governments, corporations etc.) - GP was very explicit that you're free to use the pronouns you want. If that's not unforced, I don't know what is. >will not help in the current situation of gender imbalance I'm not sure about "they" because it's so commonplace, but "she" might definitely cause someone to do a double-take. In fact, in academic philosophy, "she" instead of the expected "he" in thought experiments is very common, and on amateur philosophy forums, you can see that it does make people double take. Maybe that fact is something in favor of the argument that we tend to assume, as English language stylists have frequently in the past, that a third person is for some reason by default a "he". Arguably, being 'forced' to consider by reading why we were thrown off by a 'she' instead of a 'he' could go some way to seeing if we have the unconscious biases GP assumed exist. That 'evidence' might just lie with some introspection.
  - throwvid19 6y ago
    When the author writes about the "average" developer, that is--without ambiguity in a probability density distribution--definitely a male. To use "he/him" pronouns in that context is accurate. The contention, I think, is that not every author wants to introduce sociopolitical agenda into their writing. However, there is a large contingent of the community that wishes to force political commentary into every word written. And with that, many are aggressive, threatening, and in some cases, dangerous. (To careers, relationships, etc.) With that context in mind, you are absolutely correct that the grandparent was friendly and made a neutral suggestion with no threat of force. However, that is not always the case, and it is becoming more common for it to be a demand rather than a request. As such, some people do feel threatened by the consequences of the growing vocal majority. Your parents' reaction may have been a little over the top, but it's a real concern for some people as they watch the trend to an unknown end. Please understand that some people feel just as "othered" by the group that enforces "otherment" on people who do not prescribe to their pronoun agenda. If the equality crew doesn't like to be "othered", I imagine they can at least understand that others might feel threatened by being "othered", as well. And, of course, many of them feel delighted by the "others" feeling "othered". Not everyone agrees that this is a healthy mode of change. And I think that is what your parent was reacting to.
  - aparsons 6y ago
    TIL “she” is gender neutral
golemiprague 6y ago
It is not unconscious, it is conscious because most engineers are men. Women can become engineers exactly the same way they became doctors or lawyers, then we will refer to engineers differently to represent that.
buzzkillington 6y ago
You've just made any female engineers even more self conscious that they are not 'like us' by pointing this out. But you did make yourself feel better so that's nice.
- shuntress 6y ago
  Please reevaluate the assumptions you've made about this situation. I'm not sorry if I made you uncomfortable because this is an important issue that should be adressed. Could you please explain what in my statement makes you self conscious as well as what you mean by "'like us'"?
- allarm 6y ago
  You really should not speak for all female engineers, as it is a generalization, which is against your rules as I understand them. There were 50% of women in my previous team. My wife successfully switched to IT several years ago. Maybe the key to success is just to do your thing and not to whine about the unfairness of this world? It’s a bit more difficult than fighting for pronouns, but it makes more sense.
  - buzzkillington 6y ago
    https://xkcd.com/774/ https://xkcd.com/774/
    - allarm 6y ago
      Ugh, I realized I misunderstood your comment above. I agree with you.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
eadmund 6y ago
No, in English one uses 'they' for the third-person plural and 'she' for the third-person singular for females and objects which contain humans (e.g. buildings, ships and cars); for the third-person singular for animate objects of unknown gender one just uses the default 'he.' And there's nothing wrong with that!
- charliesome 6y ago
  This is not true. Using 'they' as a third-person singular is incredibly common, is becoming increasingly so, and has been in use for hundreds of years.
  - shrimp_emoji 6y ago
    This is also the case in some Romance languages, and I've always been put off by presumptuous "he"s or "she"s in the ambiguous case when the writer could have just said "they". Btw, worst option: "he/she" Wtf xD
aparsons 6y ago
Oh god, not this again. They is fine, but the average engineer is definitely not female in our field.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

_6qu6 6y ago

Policing the language, unfortunately, does not bring change to the situation. Everyone who has lived in a totalitarian state knows this. “Formerly no one was allowed to think freely; now it is permitted, but no one is capable of it any more. Now people want to think only what they are supposed to think, and this they consider freedom.” Oswald Spengler

wldlyinaccurate 6y ago
Chill out, friend. Parent comment kindly suggested the use of a gender neutral noun to make the passage more inclusive. No one is forcing you to use nonexclusionary language. If you want to exclude over half of the world's population over fears of an invented oppressive regime then you are most welcome to.
- _6qu6 6y ago
  This is a somewhat aggressive distortion of my words. I was merely referring to the fact that forcing the use of incorrect English will not help in the current situation of gender imbalance. And a reference to the "unconscious bias in our field" in the parent comment needs concrete citations and evidence to be of value to the discussion. How I truly wish there were more women in the field! But very few choose that profession, unfortunately. That is sad... I am not ready, however, to speculate about the reasons, since I don't have enough information. That is the reason for the reference to oppressive regimes - only there do people cripple the language to keep everything neutral and soulless, and only there do people make unverified assertions about non-existent enemies and conspirators.
  - shuntress 6y ago
    Using "she" instead of "he" is neither incorrect English nor does it cripple the language. I'm not going to spoon-feed you in a vain attempt to get a seat at the table for a discussion you clearly don't want to have. Please investigate unconscious bias for yourself.
    - _6qu6 6y ago
      You're too quick to make assumptions about people who speak with you. English grammar, for example, does not have any facilities to create gender-neutral pronouns for every single noun (only for some). It's just a fact whether we like it or not. German, for instance, is more flexible in this regard. But languages evolve over centuries, and changes to grammar cannot be organically introduced to suit a new thinking on social life (however reasonable it is).
    - allarm 6y ago
      Please refrain from overly aggressive responses like this. Hint: if you believe in something, it doesn’t automatically make it right.
  - aparsons 6y ago
    Unfortunately, it’s far too common to see your words twisted if you do not conform to some groups’ views on social justice. You made a good and valid point, don’t let others bully you into changing your beliefs.
    - _6qu6 6y ago
      What's even more unfortunate is that my views generally align with theirs - liberal and democratic. Yet those groups often very quickly put down any serious discussion, even if there is a minor and delicate criticism of their assertions. We should be more calm, especially in matters where we generally agree.
  - claudiawerner 6y ago
    >forcing the use of incorrect English What "incorrect English" is being suggested? If it's the singular "they", then you must at least concede there's some debate about it, but most scholars have no grammatical problem with it. Using the term "forced" here also does a bit of a disservice to actual cases of compelled speech and restriction of speech (by governments, corporations etc.) - GP was very explicit that you're free to use the pronouns you want. If that's not unforced, I don't know what is. >will not help in the current situation of gender imbalance I'm not sure about "they" because it's so commonplace, but "she" might definitely cause someone to do a double-take. In fact, in academic philosophy, "she" instead of the expected "he" in thought experiments is very common, and on amateur philosophy forums, you can see that it does make people double take. Maybe that fact is something in favor of the argument that we tend to assume, as English language stylists have frequently in the past, that a third person is for some reason by default a "he". Arguably, being 'forced' to consider by reading why we were thrown off by a 'she' instead of a 'he' could go some way to seeing if we have the unconscious biases GP assumed exist. That 'evidence' might just lie with some introspection.
- throwvid19 6y ago
  When the author writes about the "average" developer, that is--without ambiguity in a probability density distribution--definitely a male. To use "he/him" pronouns in that context is accurate. The contention, I think, is that not every author wants to introduce sociopolitical agenda into their writing. However, there is a large contingent of the community that wishes to force political commentary into every word written. And with that, many are aggressive, threatening, and in some cases, dangerous. (To careers, relationships, etc.) With that context in mind, you are absolutely correct that the grandparent was friendly and made a neutral suggestion with no threat of force. However, that is not always the case, and it is becoming more common for it to be a demand rather than a request. As such, some people do feel threatened by the consequences of the growing vocal majority. Your parents' reaction may have been a little over the top, but it's a real concern for some people as they watch the trend to an unknown end. Please understand that some people feel just as "othered" by the group that enforces "otherment" on people who do not prescribe to their pronoun agenda. If the equality crew doesn't like to be "othered", I imagine they can at least understand that others might feel threatened by being "othered", as well. And, of course, many of them feel delighted by the "others" feeling "othered". Not everyone agrees that this is a healthy mode of change. And I think that is what your parent was reacting to.
- aparsons 6y ago
  TIL “she” is gender neutral

golemiprague 6y ago

It is not unconscious, it is conscious because most engineers are men. Women can become engineers exactly the same way they became doctors or lawyers, then we will refer to engineers differently to represent that.

buzzkillington 6y ago

You've just made any female engineers even more self conscious that they are not 'like us' by pointing this out. But you did make yourself feel better so that's nice.

shuntress 6y ago
Please reevaluate the assumptions you've made about this situation. I'm not sorry if I made you uncomfortable because this is an important issue that should be adressed. Could you please explain what in my statement makes you self conscious as well as what you mean by "'like us'"?
allarm 6y ago
You really should not speak for all female engineers, as it is a generalization, which is against your rules as I understand them. There were 50% of women in my previous team. My wife successfully switched to IT several years ago. Maybe the key to success is just to do your thing and not to whine about the unfairness of this world? It’s a bit more difficult than fighting for pronouns, but it makes more sense.
- buzzkillington 6y ago
  https://xkcd.com/774/ https://xkcd.com/774/
  - allarm 6y ago
    Ugh, I realized I misunderstood your comment above. I agree with you.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

eadmund 6y ago

No, in English one uses 'they' for the third-person plural and 'she' for the third-person singular for females and objects which contain humans (e.g. buildings, ships and cars); for the third-person singular for animate objects of unknown gender one just uses the default 'he.' And there's nothing wrong with that!

charliesome 6y ago
This is not true. Using 'they' as a third-person singular is incredibly common, is becoming increasingly so, and has been in use for hundreds of years.
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago
  This is also the case in some Romance languages, and I've always been put off by presumptuous "he"s or "she"s in the ambiguous case when the writer could have just said "they". Btw, worst option: "he/she" Wtf xD

aparsons 6y ago

Oh god, not this again. They is fine, but the average engineer is definitely not female in our field.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]