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On a side note, I don't know whether it's intentional or not, but the whole story is a great marketing campaign for HEY. Clashing with Apple made everybody lear

On a side note, I don't know whether it's intentional or not, but the whole story is a great marketing campaign for HEY. Clashing with Apple made everybody learn about the app in a matter of days.

zaroth 6y ago
I would say that if anything Hey was hoping that Apple would reject their app specifically so they could become a cause célèbre, and ride the streisand effect, They've done a great job organizing their protest campaign. I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't planned from the beginning. They are ultimately depending on Apple caving under pressure.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  It isn't clear that Hey couldn't just be a PWA like many other email services?
  - realtalk_sp 6y ago
    Do you have any statistics breaking down how frequently mobile users access email via a PWA versus a dedicated app? Also surveys on the difference in user experience? If not, please refrain from disingenuously advancing obviously problematic ideas. It adds nothing to the conversation.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      ...disingenuously... It was a serious question. I'm sorry if it caught you in a situation that didn't allow you to perceive it in that way.
    - jfoster 6y ago
      It's not as though a statistic about how frequently mobile users access mail via a website is a measurement of some universal value. If that's the only way for iOS users to use Hey, then would find some users who are willing to do that. What's wrong with this being put forward? I would go so far to say that this is one of the four main things that happen when an app is rejected from an app store. 1. Change the app. 2. Don't support the platform. 3. Sideload. 4. Direct users from that platform to the web version.
      - rydre 6y ago
        Apple intentionally doesn't support many the functionality required by PWA's.
        jfoster 6y ago
        That's true, and it's probably for this very reason. That said, at a minimum it's very possible to have a somewhat usable website on iOS. If ever that stops being the case, hopefully consumers will finally stop buying iOS devices.
        niutech 6y ago
        PWAs are supported well by iOS 13 and you can add a shortcut to the home screen since the beginning - see https://love2dev.com/pwa/ios/ https://love2dev.com/pwa/ios/
        rydre 6y ago
        No push notifications, limits of 50mb on storage whereas a good email app requires around 500mb to 1.5gb including local indexes for quick search etc. Storage cleared after a week of no interaction. No way to do photo preview. No contact picker. No picture in picture API support. And lots of other missing API's. Look at the WebKit forms and see how many developers are begging Apple to support them for years. The ignore any request. The web browsers that meets the PWA requirements are Chrome, Edge, Firefox (to a large extent), Brave, Vivaldi, all available on Windows, Linux, Mac, Android. Not Safari. And all browsers including Chrome and Firefox are just Safari under the hood (on iOS) so no completion for Apple. Apple does not even allow a competing browser engine. I wouldn't call this "PWA support". When I talk to friends at Google that work at Chrome, and tell them to convince Apple to support many of the features, they tell me that they have given up on them, and I can go talk to Apple if I want. They told me they're gonna keep progressing the web even if Apple wants to stay behind, they won't stop. I've talked to people at Apple about this, they don't care. They always have a far fetched excuse. I know it's not the engineers fault, they are ordered by the upper management. Instead of giving the money to Apple, we could easily reinvest it to grow.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  This seems unlikely. They are at real risk of having their 1.0 app pulled, and even if it remains it has real bugs. Additionally, until this week I don’t think any iOS developer would have predicted this rules clarification/enforcement. That said, they were clearly ready to loudly react to whatever trouble did emerge.
  - kethinov 6y ago
    To play devil's advocate, maybe DHH hoped it would get rejected so he could launch his protest campaign, then when Apple approved the app only to turn around and reject an update, he was given an even more exploitable situation than the one he had hoped for. Who knows? All I know is if the end result is that Apple is held accountable by regulators and is forced to stop engaging in capricious anticompetitive behavior, then whether DHH is a master astroturfer or not doesn't matter much to me. The end result will have been good for us all.
etse 6y ago
And well timed too.
troycarlson 6y ago
It is literally a play from their book, Rework. See the essay "Pick a fight."
- evan_ 6y ago
  So is Apple in on it? Remember, Apple initially approved the app.
  - jfoster 6y ago
    No way. This is far too risky & damaging to them to be in on, unless they already plan to add lots of new exceptions/relaxations of rules around this.
jpttsn 6y ago
It’s obviously intentional. I’ve never heard about Hey. Then today, first they post something else and now someone defrosts this tired whine about Apple monetizing, and Hey (whatever it is) tops the list. Sigh. Good work marketers, people seem to buy it.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  They had a large audience before this.
- maest 6y ago
  So just because the publicity benefits Hey, the point about Apple's unequal treatment of devs on their platform is invalidated? Also, I'm not sure how Hey orchestrated this - do they have someone on the inside who they had reject their app?
  - jpttsn 6y ago
    No, though it’s invalidated for other reasons, the enumeration of which would here seem only to cause a resounding whoosh passing overhead. It’s child’s play to orchestrate this. It amounts to getting thrown out of a bar for not wearing pants, and then putting up ishouldbeabletovisitbarswithoutpants.com. Not something that requires a man on the inside.
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  They didn't change anything in their app. How could they have known that Apple would suddenly enforce a rule on them that they had not previously enforced?
  - jpttsn 6y ago
    “So how do we raise awareness” “Well, let’s ask Apple for some workaround for the 30%, skirt the rules a bit” “They’ll never go for that” “Of course not, but while it lasts we’ll get 30% more. Then once we get rejected, sooner or later, we’ll write some blog posts and suddenly a bunch of nerds will see us as the brave underdog“
flobosg 6y ago
> David, I’ve got to I ask you, because so many people have said this. You’re very successful. Basecamp is excellent at marketing. Did you do this on purpose? Did you time this to create this firestorm before WWDC? > I wish I was that smart. Imagine if I was that good at 4D chess. Imagine just the mechanics of this: first, you have to plant someone within Apple that approves the application, which, and then, what, I plant someone on Monday that then disapproves it? How does any of this work? How powerful do I have to be to orchestrate this? - https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-hey-email-fees-policies-antitrust-wwdc-2020 https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-...
- jfoster 6y ago
  They couldn't have relied on it getting rejected, but they must have been keenly aware that it was a possibility. What we're seeing is probably their contingency plan playing out. They'll eventually probably capitulate. Maybe with a higher price on the IAP? They're very much making sure that Apple are earning their 30% through this campaign, though!

On a side note, I don't know whether it's intentional or not, but the whole story is a great marketing campaign for HEY. Clashing with Apple made everybody learn about the app in a matter of days.

zaroth 6y ago

I would say that if anything Hey was hoping that Apple would reject their app specifically so they could become a cause célèbre, and ride the streisand effect, They've done a great job organizing their protest campaign. I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't planned from the beginning. They are ultimately depending on Apple caving under pressure.

jessaustin 6y ago
It isn't clear that Hey couldn't just be a PWA like many other email services?
- realtalk_sp 6y ago
  Do you have any statistics breaking down how frequently mobile users access email via a PWA versus a dedicated app? Also surveys on the difference in user experience? If not, please refrain from disingenuously advancing obviously problematic ideas. It adds nothing to the conversation.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    ...disingenuously... It was a serious question. I'm sorry if it caught you in a situation that didn't allow you to perceive it in that way.
  - jfoster 6y ago
    It's not as though a statistic about how frequently mobile users access mail via a website is a measurement of some universal value. If that's the only way for iOS users to use Hey, then would find some users who are willing to do that. What's wrong with this being put forward? I would go so far to say that this is one of the four main things that happen when an app is rejected from an app store. 1. Change the app. 2. Don't support the platform. 3. Sideload. 4. Direct users from that platform to the web version.
    - rydre 6y ago
      Apple intentionally doesn't support many the functionality required by PWA's.
      - jfoster 6y ago
        That's true, and it's probably for this very reason. That said, at a minimum it's very possible to have a somewhat usable website on iOS. If ever that stops being the case, hopefully consumers will finally stop buying iOS devices.
      - niutech 6y ago
        PWAs are supported well by iOS 13 and you can add a shortcut to the home screen since the beginning - see https://love2dev.com/pwa/ios/ https://love2dev.com/pwa/ios/
        rydre 6y ago
        No push notifications, limits of 50mb on storage whereas a good email app requires around 500mb to 1.5gb including local indexes for quick search etc. Storage cleared after a week of no interaction. No way to do photo preview. No contact picker. No picture in picture API support. And lots of other missing API's. Look at the WebKit forms and see how many developers are begging Apple to support them for years. The ignore any request. The web browsers that meets the PWA requirements are Chrome, Edge, Firefox (to a large extent), Brave, Vivaldi, all available on Windows, Linux, Mac, Android. Not Safari. And all browsers including Chrome and Firefox are just Safari under the hood (on iOS) so no completion for Apple. Apple does not even allow a competing browser engine. I wouldn't call this "PWA support". When I talk to friends at Google that work at Chrome, and tell them to convince Apple to support many of the features, they tell me that they have given up on them, and I can go talk to Apple if I want. They told me they're gonna keep progressing the web even if Apple wants to stay behind, they won't stop. I've talked to people at Apple about this, they don't care. They always have a far fetched excuse. I know it's not the engineers fault, they are ordered by the upper management. Instead of giving the money to Apple, we could easily reinvest it to grow.
1123581321 6y ago
This seems unlikely. They are at real risk of having their 1.0 app pulled, and even if it remains it has real bugs. Additionally, until this week I don’t think any iOS developer would have predicted this rules clarification/enforcement. That said, they were clearly ready to loudly react to whatever trouble did emerge.
- kethinov 6y ago
  To play devil's advocate, maybe DHH hoped it would get rejected so he could launch his protest campaign, then when Apple approved the app only to turn around and reject an update, he was given an even more exploitable situation than the one he had hoped for. Who knows? All I know is if the end result is that Apple is held accountable by regulators and is forced to stop engaging in capricious anticompetitive behavior, then whether DHH is a master astroturfer or not doesn't matter much to me. The end result will have been good for us all.

etse 6y ago

And well timed too.

troycarlson 6y ago

It is literally a play from their book, Rework. See the essay "Pick a fight."

evan_ 6y ago
So is Apple in on it? Remember, Apple initially approved the app.
- jfoster 6y ago
  No way. This is far too risky & damaging to them to be in on, unless they already plan to add lots of new exceptions/relaxations of rules around this.

jpttsn 6y ago

It’s obviously intentional. I’ve never heard about Hey. Then today, first they post something else and now someone defrosts this tired whine about Apple monetizing, and Hey (whatever it is) tops the list. Sigh. Good work marketers, people seem to buy it.

1123581321 6y ago
They had a large audience before this.
maest 6y ago
So just because the publicity benefits Hey, the point about Apple's unequal treatment of devs on their platform is invalidated? Also, I'm not sure how Hey orchestrated this - do they have someone on the inside who they had reject their app?
- jpttsn 6y ago
  No, though it’s invalidated for other reasons, the enumeration of which would here seem only to cause a resounding whoosh passing overhead. It’s child’s play to orchestrate this. It amounts to getting thrown out of a bar for not wearing pants, and then putting up ishouldbeabletovisitbarswithoutpants.com. Not something that requires a man on the inside.
lern_too_spel 6y ago
They didn't change anything in their app. How could they have known that Apple would suddenly enforce a rule on them that they had not previously enforced?
- jpttsn 6y ago
  “So how do we raise awareness” “Well, let’s ask Apple for some workaround for the 30%, skirt the rules a bit” “They’ll never go for that” “Of course not, but while it lasts we’ll get 30% more. Then once we get rejected, sooner or later, we’ll write some blog posts and suddenly a bunch of nerds will see us as the brave underdog“

flobosg 6y ago

> David, I’ve got to I ask you, because so many people have said this. You’re very successful. Basecamp is excellent at marketing. Did you do this on purpose? Did you time this to create this firestorm before WWDC? > I wish I was that smart. Imagine if I was that good at 4D chess. Imagine just the mechanics of this: first, you have to plant someone within Apple that approves the application, which, and then, what, I plant someone on Monday that then disapproves it? How does any of this work? How powerful do I have to be to orchestrate this? - https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-hey-email-fees-policies-antitrust-wwdc-2020 https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/18/21295778/apple-app-store-...

jfoster 6y ago
They couldn't have relied on it getting rejected, but they must have been keenly aware that it was a possibility. What we're seeing is probably their contingency plan playing out. They'll eventually probably capitulate. Maybe with a higher price on the IAP? They're very much making sure that Apple are earning their 30% through this campaign, though!