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Let's be honest the real reason to use Telegram wasn't security, I mean whenever the topic comes up here moxie (or his advocates) pops up and tells us it's tras

Let's be honest the real reason to use Telegram wasn't security, I mean whenever the topic comes up here moxie (or his advocates) pops up and tells us it's trash and we should all use signal instead. The real reason to use telegram is that it's miles away the best messenging program out there. It's as user friendly as whatsapp while having completely seamless desktop/mobile integration (something whatsapp and signal have failed to do), it only requires a phone number for the initial signup, and generally speaking it has all sorts of cool features and less bullshit than alternatives. Then there are the little things - you can create multiple accounts and switch seamlessly, you can delete whatever message from whomever for everyone without leaving a trace (if it bothers you just switch to secret chats), all links are listed in each convo, you have pretty much unlimited and unrestricted cloud storage, etc. Then you have all the gravy like cool tools for groupchat admin, channels, and bots of course. You can order a taxi or search up a book on scihub (bypassing countrywide blocking) with telegram. You can even do bizarre stuff like discover people around you or verify your identity on a service with telegram. Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA, frankly. If I really want secrecy I'll use Tor or Signal.

luckylion 6y ago
I'd add to that: actually native client, not just some slow Electron thing, you can scale the font in the client(!), easy to work with bot API, allows other clients to access their servers. The one thing that keeps me from using Telegram as my primary messenger is the low maximum line-width that makes it feel like you're on mobile even if you're using the desktop client. But UX, especially speed, is just amazing.
- cordite 6y ago
  The native client also has benefits that don't come from electron and a javascript vm, being able to use 9 GB of swap and remaining performant!
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  More than just one native client, depending your platform, there are multiple clients! So if the official client doesn't do it for you, you've got a choice, and if you're so inclined you could even write your own! On macOS I use the semi-official Swift/Cocoa client instead of the main Qt-based one. Other messaging apps wouldn't be so bad if alternative clients were a possibility, because inevitably someone would build better clients. Messaging app platforms should have open APIs and welcome third party client devs, not chase them away.
  - pokemongoaway 6y ago
    But zero clients for Linux have secret chat :(
LeoPanthera 6y ago
> you can create multiple accounts Only if you have multiple phones. One account per number. > Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA, frankly. I can't tell if this is a joke. If it's not, it's fairly insulting to everyone who believes in a world with privacy and freedom.
- sushshshsh 6y ago
  If I am living in the USA and the FSB reads my messages, what can they do to me if they don't like what I say? I personally think the NSA has a jurisdiction to do more to American citizens in the USA. I would be extra careful about the NSA if I was H1B.
  - duxup 6y ago
    I think a better example might be China. Let's say you say something less than pleasant about China, or you like Winnie the Pooh. China has already demonstrated the will and influence necessary to extend pressure on other companies, governments, and etc to deal with such things.... and you have far less recourse (if any) to deal with (or know about) it than most anything. I post this a lot but it's true: “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. But let's also be clear that much like your data being held by a corporation, leaks, etc all happen... if Russia has it, so may someone closer to you.
    - Synaesthesia 6y ago
      It’s already been proven that the NSA also surveils on US citizens via PRISM and so on, I think what he’s trying to say is this should be a bigger concern than some foreigners.
      - duxup 6y ago
        Well as my quote indicates I agree. But I think it is also unhelpful / inaccurate for every non free nation that comes up we get these sort of "What about this place!?!?" false equivalency arguments.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA Being funneled to the FSB doesn't prevent them from being read by the NSA, it's just one more opportunity for the NSA to intercept them.
wnevets 6y ago
>by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA, Care to explain?
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Would you rather have the cops with jurisdiction over where you live read your mail or have the cops who have jurisdiction over somewhere that has no affect on you read your mail? He probably lives in the USA where the FSB is less likely to oppress him than US government agencies are.
  - wnevets 6y ago
    Hasn't the FSB proven that false? They've been caught poisoning dissenters on foreign soil many times in the past several years.
    - e12e 6y ago
      There's a spectrum between the Russian state is willing to risk people, money to kill me, and the Russian state is willing to have local Russian police throw me in prison (or local right wing thugs beat me up) because I'm openly gay ...
    - vkou 6y ago
      You need to have really pissed them off for them to poison you, much like how you really need to piss the Department of State off for them to drone strike you, or to throw you in a sack, mark it 'DIPLOMATIC MAIL', and ship you to Gitmo.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Yeah but there's not gonna open that can of worms on a whim whereas if the ATF catches wind of all that fertilizer you bought they're gonna incompetently shoot your dog regardless of the fact that you just want to peacefully break up some boulders into small enough pieces for your tractor to move.
    - Barrin92 6y ago
slim 6y ago
also conveniently it's in f-droid
ryder9 6y ago
new account created 13 hours ago, ok bud
- Kiro 6y ago
  Using throwaway accounts is a common practice on HN. It's right there in the username.
  - maqp 6y ago
    Joining a conversation with throwaway account to list shill points that encourage people to use a dangerous unencrypted communication tool for everything is anything but acceptable.
tryptophan 6y ago
Just want to point out that telegram has the same security model as email. Google can read all your emails. So can microsoft if you use them. NSA can find its way into those companies. Do you use email despite it's lack of end-to-end encryption? I would bet that 99% of these privacy people still use email.
- hnarn 6y ago
  > Just want to point out that telegram has the same security model as email. Last time I looked, Gmail or equivalent products didn't allow you to easily end-to-end encrypt your messages without any additional effort.
  - prophesi 6y ago
    Telegram by default does not utilize end-to-end encryption. You have to start a secret chat with another user. Both of you need to be online at the same time, and there's no support for secret group chats. All of that to say, I guarantee the majority of Telegram users aren't utilizing E2E-encryption so the Gmail comparison is valid in that light. Though my counterpoint would be that privacy advocates likely know how to use PGP and use it to securely communicate with fellow privacy advocates via email.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - tryptophan 6y ago
    Let me rephrase -> At worst, telegram is no worse than email in terms of security.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- maqp 6y ago
  >I would bet that 99% of these privacy people still use email. The question is, what is email being used for? Communicating with people who we don't have private interaction with? Having academic discussion on mailing lists? That stuff doesn't really require confidentiality.
octaveguin 6y ago
There is no reason to believe telegram is in bed with the FSB. The company does not have servers in Russia, the software wasn't developed in Russia, etc. The only reason one could make the connection is that it was developed by a Russian. A Russian that gave up a lot specifically not to cooperate with the Russian government.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  > the software wasn't developed in Russia, etc. But it was developed in Russia. Durov was lying to the world that developers were abroad out of reach of russian authorities, when in practice they were in Saint Petersburg just a floor below VK.com developers (a previous company by Durov, now controlled by russian government via proxy pocket oligarchs)
ausjke 6y ago
telegram's link preview is always on and there is no way to turn off, so my phone's screen is always filled with just one or two context, hard to read meaningful text and titles in these busy days. I hope they can let me turn off the preview totally.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
> It's as user friendly as whatsapp while having completely seamless desktop/mobile integration (something whatsapp and signal have failed to do) They failed to do this only because they have a real end-to-end encryption for all chats, unlike Telegram.
- throwaway4666 6y ago
  Telegram does have E2E encryption if you toggle secret chats, it's just not by default because most users don't care about privacy and just want the cool features.
  - maqp 6y ago
    Explain in technical detail why the cool features (like stickers) can't be implemented with E2EE when Signal is doing that at constant pace? Telegram doesn't have E2E encryption for groups or Windows/Linux desktop clients, even if you try to toggle something. So your argument is false.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Stickers do work in Telegram secret chat, though. Only animated stickers don't, presumably in order to avoid leaking IPs. But a lot of cool features do work in secret chat.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    In 5 years of using telegram, I'm yet to see a person who would initate a secret chat with me. Everyone who loves Telegram hypes how cool it syncs all their messages on all devices, including browsers, yet, being happy of using the most secure end-to-end encrypted messaging. Sad.
lloeki 6y ago
> The real reason to use telegram is that it's miles away the best messenging program out there. That, and it's not Facebook-owned, a company which has a very detailed track record of lying and abusing private information. Telegram as a Messenger/WhatsApp replacement for the general public is solid gold, even if state security agencies were able to peek in it. It all depends on your threat model for a given information exchange you're going to have and who you consider to be your adversary.
fomine3 6y ago
It's also good that Telegram is used by many people who don't care security.
maqp 6y ago
>Let's be honest the real reason to use Telegram wasn't security Yet the VERY FIRST feature presented in Telegram's front page is privacy: "Telegram messages are heavily encrypted and can self-destruct." Heavily encrypted is a complete lie, but people who want privacy don't know that, they will download Telegram thinking it's secure. You're wrong and you're doing harm by spreading claims like that. >or his advocates) pops up and tells us it's trash and we should all use signal instead. Yeah, everyone should fight the propaganda machine shilling a really, really dangerous product. Every time someone recommends Telegram it's due to features, the marketing strategy is clearly "if we can get them hooked on features, they will forget about the fact every feature is designed to spy on them". >The real reason to use telegram is that it's miles away the best messenging program out there. Ooh you're one of them. See here's the thing: the features that aren't really private, aren't really features. Telegram is a collection of trojan horses: seemingly useful things that actually hurt you by spying on you. When you measure Telegram's E2EE features against that of Signal's you'll immediately see who has more features. Telegram doesn't even have group messages. >It's as user friendly as whatsapp while having completely seamless desktop/mobile integration It doesn't. There is absolutely no desktop mobile integration for anything that's E2EE. For Signal, everything is. >Then you have all the gravy like cool tools for groupchat admin, channels, and bots of course No there are no private group chats with any kind of management in Telegram. >Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? To me it sounds like you're a privileged person who doesn't have to care about these things. You're not doing anything that will ever rock the boat, so you're pretty much immune. The only real question is, what is your legacy? Also why did you come here to tell us about your privilege and to list Telegram's dangerous features? Because you're a good Samaritan?

luckylion 6y ago

I'd add to that: actually native client, not just some slow Electron thing, you can scale the font in the client(!), easy to work with bot API, allows other clients to access their servers. The one thing that keeps me from using Telegram as my primary messenger is the low maximum line-width that makes it feel like you're on mobile even if you're using the desktop client. But UX, especially speed, is just amazing.

cordite 6y ago
The native client also has benefits that don't come from electron and a javascript vm, being able to use 9 GB of swap and remaining performant!
kitsunesoba 6y ago
More than just one native client, depending your platform, there are multiple clients! So if the official client doesn't do it for you, you've got a choice, and if you're so inclined you could even write your own! On macOS I use the semi-official Swift/Cocoa client instead of the main Qt-based one. Other messaging apps wouldn't be so bad if alternative clients were a possibility, because inevitably someone would build better clients. Messaging app platforms should have open APIs and welcome third party client devs, not chase them away.
- pokemongoaway 6y ago
  But zero clients for Linux have secret chat :(

LeoPanthera 6y ago

> you can create multiple accounts Only if you have multiple phones. One account per number. > Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA, frankly. I can't tell if this is a joke. If it's not, it's fairly insulting to everyone who believes in a world with privacy and freedom.

sushshshsh 6y ago
If I am living in the USA and the FSB reads my messages, what can they do to me if they don't like what I say? I personally think the NSA has a jurisdiction to do more to American citizens in the USA. I would be extra careful about the NSA if I was H1B.
- duxup 6y ago
  I think a better example might be China. Let's say you say something less than pleasant about China, or you like Winnie the Pooh. China has already demonstrated the will and influence necessary to extend pressure on other companies, governments, and etc to deal with such things.... and you have far less recourse (if any) to deal with (or know about) it than most anything. I post this a lot but it's true: “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. But let's also be clear that much like your data being held by a corporation, leaks, etc all happen... if Russia has it, so may someone closer to you.
  - Synaesthesia 6y ago
    It’s already been proven that the NSA also surveils on US citizens via PRISM and so on, I think what he’s trying to say is this should be a bigger concern than some foreigners.
    - duxup 6y ago
      Well as my quote indicates I agree. But I think it is also unhelpful / inaccurate for every non free nation that comes up we get these sort of "What about this place!?!?" false equivalency arguments.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA Being funneled to the FSB doesn't prevent them from being read by the NSA, it's just one more opportunity for the NSA to intercept them.

wnevets 6y ago

>by the FSB. So what? Better that than the NSA, Care to explain?

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Would you rather have the cops with jurisdiction over where you live read your mail or have the cops who have jurisdiction over somewhere that has no affect on you read your mail? He probably lives in the USA where the FSB is less likely to oppress him than US government agencies are.
- wnevets 6y ago
  Hasn't the FSB proven that false? They've been caught poisoning dissenters on foreign soil many times in the past several years.
  - e12e 6y ago
    There's a spectrum between the Russian state is willing to risk people, money to kill me, and the Russian state is willing to have local Russian police throw me in prison (or local right wing thugs beat me up) because I'm openly gay ...
  - vkou 6y ago
    You need to have really pissed them off for them to poison you, much like how you really need to piss the Department of State off for them to drone strike you, or to throw you in a sack, mark it 'DIPLOMATIC MAIL', and ship you to Gitmo.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Yeah but there's not gonna open that can of worms on a whim whereas if the ATF catches wind of all that fertilizer you bought they're gonna incompetently shoot your dog regardless of the fact that you just want to peacefully break up some boulders into small enough pieces for your tractor to move.
  - Barrin92 6y ago

slim 6y ago

also conveniently it's in f-droid

ryder9 6y ago

new account created 13 hours ago, ok bud

Kiro 6y ago
Using throwaway accounts is a common practice on HN. It's right there in the username.
- maqp 6y ago
  Joining a conversation with throwaway account to list shill points that encourage people to use a dangerous unencrypted communication tool for everything is anything but acceptable.

tryptophan 6y ago

Just want to point out that telegram has the same security model as email. Google can read all your emails. So can microsoft if you use them. NSA can find its way into those companies. Do you use email despite it's lack of end-to-end encryption? I would bet that 99% of these privacy people still use email.

hnarn 6y ago
> Just want to point out that telegram has the same security model as email. Last time I looked, Gmail or equivalent products didn't allow you to easily end-to-end encrypt your messages without any additional effort.
- prophesi 6y ago
  Telegram by default does not utilize end-to-end encryption. You have to start a secret chat with another user. Both of you need to be online at the same time, and there's no support for secret group chats. All of that to say, I guarantee the majority of Telegram users aren't utilizing E2E-encryption so the Gmail comparison is valid in that light. Though my counterpoint would be that privacy advocates likely know how to use PGP and use it to securely communicate with fellow privacy advocates via email.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- tryptophan 6y ago
  Let me rephrase -> At worst, telegram is no worse than email in terms of security.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
maqp 6y ago
>I would bet that 99% of these privacy people still use email. The question is, what is email being used for? Communicating with people who we don't have private interaction with? Having academic discussion on mailing lists? That stuff doesn't really require confidentiality.

octaveguin 6y ago

There is no reason to believe telegram is in bed with the FSB. The company does not have servers in Russia, the software wasn't developed in Russia, etc. The only reason one could make the connection is that it was developed by a Russian. A Russian that gave up a lot specifically not to cooperate with the Russian government.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
> the software wasn't developed in Russia, etc. But it was developed in Russia. Durov was lying to the world that developers were abroad out of reach of russian authorities, when in practice they were in Saint Petersburg just a floor below VK.com developers (a previous company by Durov, now controlled by russian government via proxy pocket oligarchs)

ausjke 6y ago

telegram's link preview is always on and there is no way to turn off, so my phone's screen is always filled with just one or two context, hard to read meaningful text and titles in these busy days. I hope they can let me turn off the preview totally.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

> It's as user friendly as whatsapp while having completely seamless desktop/mobile integration (something whatsapp and signal have failed to do) They failed to do this only because they have a real end-to-end encryption for all chats, unlike Telegram.

throwaway4666 6y ago
Telegram does have E2E encryption if you toggle secret chats, it's just not by default because most users don't care about privacy and just want the cool features.
- maqp 6y ago
  Explain in technical detail why the cool features (like stickers) can't be implemented with E2EE when Signal is doing that at constant pace? Telegram doesn't have E2E encryption for groups or Windows/Linux desktop clients, even if you try to toggle something. So your argument is false.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Stickers do work in Telegram secret chat, though. Only animated stickers don't, presumably in order to avoid leaking IPs. But a lot of cool features do work in secret chat.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  In 5 years of using telegram, I'm yet to see a person who would initate a secret chat with me. Everyone who loves Telegram hypes how cool it syncs all their messages on all devices, including browsers, yet, being happy of using the most secure end-to-end encrypted messaging. Sad.

lloeki 6y ago

> The real reason to use telegram is that it's miles away the best messenging program out there. That, and it's not Facebook-owned, a company which has a very detailed track record of lying and abusing private information. Telegram as a Messenger/WhatsApp replacement for the general public is solid gold, even if state security agencies were able to peek in it. It all depends on your threat model for a given information exchange you're going to have and who you consider to be your adversary.

fomine3 6y ago

It's also good that Telegram is used by many people who don't care security.

maqp 6y ago

>Let's be honest the real reason to use Telegram wasn't security Yet the VERY FIRST feature presented in Telegram's front page is privacy: "Telegram messages are heavily encrypted and can self-destruct." Heavily encrypted is a complete lie, but people who want privacy don't know that, they will download Telegram thinking it's secure. You're wrong and you're doing harm by spreading claims like that. >or his advocates) pops up and tells us it's trash and we should all use signal instead. Yeah, everyone should fight the propaganda machine shilling a really, really dangerous product. Every time someone recommends Telegram it's due to features, the marketing strategy is clearly "if we can get them hooked on features, they will forget about the fact every feature is designed to spy on them". >The real reason to use telegram is that it's miles away the best messenging program out there. Ooh you're one of them. See here's the thing: the features that aren't really private, aren't really features. Telegram is a collection of trojan horses: seemingly useful things that actually hurt you by spying on you. When you measure Telegram's E2EE features against that of Signal's you'll immediately see who has more features. Telegram doesn't even have group messages. >It's as user friendly as whatsapp while having completely seamless desktop/mobile integration It doesn't. There is absolutely no desktop mobile integration for anything that's E2EE. For Signal, everything is. >Then you have all the gravy like cool tools for groupchat admin, channels, and bots of course No there are no private group chats with any kind of management in Telegram. >Yeah my texts are probably being read by the FSB. So what? To me it sounds like you're a privileged person who doesn't have to care about these things. You're not doing anything that will ever rock the boat, so you're pretty much immune. The only real question is, what is your legacy? Also why did you come here to tell us about your privilege and to list Telegram's dangerous features? Because you're a good Samaritan?