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I've read "White Fragility". While I completely agree that the stories in this article are hugely problematic and represent issues that need to be solved, I th

by JPKab 6y ago

I've read "White Fragility". While I completely agree that the stories in this article are hugely problematic and represent issues that need to be solved, I think books like "White Fragility" are not helpful in solving them. This is due to a focus on group identity, and describing "White" as if it's a monolithic group of people, all with the same culture, emotions, and reactions. Another interesting aspect I identified while reading the book was it's description of the emotions that one can expect to see when confronting white people about race issues: the description could have been used to describe any human being you will ever meet when you accuse/blame them for something that they did not personally do. It really does read like a horoscope in that sense. I find it ironic that people on HN, who are typically super data driven, get on board with works like "White Fragility". Diangelo is one of many academics from the humanities departments who are incredibly pseudo-scientific. Data is incredibly scarce, measurements and studies even less so. Statistical knowledge isn't present in the vast majority of these folks. Typically, the "scientific method" is reading and writing essays/novels. When you don't attempt to quantify a problem, you can't propose solutions and then measure their results. You instead just keep yourself busy finding ever more ways to describe the water to the drowning person.

hello_friendos 6y ago
I think instantly feeling uncomfortable about a term like "White Fragility" and writing an entire comment about being uncomfortable about the term instead of a comment about the racism Black people face in all walks of life is a perfect example of white fragility.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  With logic like that, who needs dialogue?
- JPKab 6y ago
  That's incredibly convenient, don't you think? If I was a human being who happened to be black, and made the same criticism, would you have a different response? You think that my response epitomized the thing I was complaining about. You are welcome to that opinion. I think that your comment epitomizes the problem I was talking about, which is that this philosophy espouses that every thought in my head or word from my mouth is impossible to separate from my ethnicity. My ideas are beholden to and a product of my group identity in this worldview. I find that to be dangerous and regressive. I should also add that "White Fragility" didn't "instantly" make me uncomfortable. I purchased and read the entire book. I was open minded about it, until the complete lack of scientific rigor and opinionated, essay-type qualities became clear.
- Veen 6y ago
  Yes, that's exactly the problem with the concept of white fragility. It's a Kafka trap [0]. You either agree with the concept and its implications/assumptions or you are accused of exemplifying it. It's a clever bit of rhetoric if you're fan of argument by denunciation. [0]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap
totetsu 6y ago
Do you have any quantitative evidence that "people on HN, who are typically super data driven"?
rozab 6y ago
I think the trend you're describing comes down to post-modernists' general rejection of objective truth, which the scientific method relies on. This excerpt from the Chomsky-Foucault debate sums it up well[0]. I like the idea as a progression of philosophy but it's been applied in some pretty terrible ways[1]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQvL7YH0L_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQvL7YH0L_o [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
- pessimizer 6y ago
  That's a weird box to put it in. I think the reason the fragility concept has caught on with (US) black people is because we each have far more experience dealing with white people than they have dealing with us (on average.) It's difficult to design a study around. Calling it post-modern is just a slur. It's easier to say that you don't believe it.
lukev 6y ago
If you wait to do anything about systemic racism until it's fully quantified, it will be a long time until we can make any progress. Meanwhile, a central point of the book is one that should be self evident. Talking about racism makes white people[1] uncomfortable. I know this to be true from experience. And we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations about racism. I don't see how you need "statistical power" to recognize this or adopt this strategy. Also, this: > ccuse/blame them for something that they did not personally do That's not what the discomfort is about. Of course none of us are _personally_ responsible for the systemic racism in the US. But if we can't even talk about it without getting uncomfortable, how are we going to fix it? 1: If this doesn't apply to you, great, I wasn't talking about you [2] 2: Except if this topic makes you annoyed enough to disagree then yes, I probably am talking about you.
- pdonis 6y ago
  > we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations about racism. I am all for having frank conversations, but I think the topic needs to be broader than "racism". It needs to be "systematic inequality of treatment". Or even better, "systematic violations of basic human rights". Then we can focus on why our society, which is supposed to be based on everybody having the same basic human rights, is not achieving that in practice, and how to fix it. Focusing on one particular group of people whose rights are being violated only distracts from that overall objective.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    Why do we have to talk about everything bad before we talk about one thing that's bad, especially when it comes to black people? Why, when the aftereffects of American slavery are being discussed, is there always somebody who says that we have to talk about Middle Eastern and African slavery first? Are the only important problems universal ones?
    - Avicebron 6y ago
      No but it comes off as disingenuous because people talk about a lot of ill in the US without getting the level of outrage that this topic brings, rampant inequality, corporate stranglehold of the government and horrible work conditions for many people, regardless of the color of their skin. So when someone says, lets talk about more than this problem, they get sidelined and everything else is pushed further to the back burner.
jfrankamp 6y ago
> Statistical knowledge isn't present in the vast majority of these folks. This seems like a key moment to... cite data? Since you are broadly making pseudo-mathy sounding claims while complaining that others aren't as mathematically/statistically/factually rigorous as 'people on HN'.
charlesu 6y ago
> Another interesting aspect I identified while reading the book was it's description of the emotions that one can expect to see when confronting white people about race issues: the description could have been used to describe any human being you will ever meet when you accuse/blame them for something that they did not personally do. I've heard this before and don't understand it. Why should talking about racial issues make people feel like they're being accused of something? I am a man. I have not be catcalled or threatened for rejecting someone's advances. I can't recall any prominent examples of witnessing a woman being threatened for rejecting a man's advances. But when a woman tells me that it happens to her, I don't feel guilty. So I don't understand how someone telling you about their experience leads to feeling like being accused or blamed for something you did not do.
- RonanTheGrey 6y ago
  Here's an example. You've never catcalled. You've never been catcalled. You've never been threatened for rejecting someone's advances and you've never threatened when yours were rejected. That same woman comes to you and says "All men are sexist and do not respect women, and that includes you. You are horrible. You deserve to know how I feel." How would you respond? I would think "favorably" would not be high on your list. THAT is the type of discourse being used about race. It is not helpful. It doesn't identify the problems. It doesn't empower people to fix them. It doesn't inspire them to. I'm truly not sure what people think they are accomplishing to be honest.

by JPKab 6y ago

hello_friendos 6y ago

I think instantly feeling uncomfortable about a term like "White Fragility" and writing an entire comment about being uncomfortable about the term instead of a comment about the racism Black people face in all walks of life is a perfect example of white fragility.

humanrebar 6y ago
With logic like that, who needs dialogue?
JPKab 6y ago
That's incredibly convenient, don't you think? If I was a human being who happened to be black, and made the same criticism, would you have a different response? You think that my response epitomized the thing I was complaining about. You are welcome to that opinion. I think that your comment epitomizes the problem I was talking about, which is that this philosophy espouses that every thought in my head or word from my mouth is impossible to separate from my ethnicity. My ideas are beholden to and a product of my group identity in this worldview. I find that to be dangerous and regressive. I should also add that "White Fragility" didn't "instantly" make me uncomfortable. I purchased and read the entire book. I was open minded about it, until the complete lack of scientific rigor and opinionated, essay-type qualities became clear.
Veen 6y ago
Yes, that's exactly the problem with the concept of white fragility. It's a Kafka trap [0]. You either agree with the concept and its implications/assumptions or you are accused of exemplifying it. It's a clever bit of rhetoric if you're fan of argument by denunciation. [0]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap

totetsu 6y ago

Do you have any quantitative evidence that "people on HN, who are typically super data driven"?

rozab 6y ago

I think the trend you're describing comes down to post-modernists' general rejection of objective truth, which the scientific method relies on. This excerpt from the Chomsky-Foucault debate sums it up well[0]. I like the idea as a progression of philosophy but it's been applied in some pretty terrible ways[1]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQvL7YH0L_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQvL7YH0L_o [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

pessimizer 6y ago
That's a weird box to put it in. I think the reason the fragility concept has caught on with (US) black people is because we each have far more experience dealing with white people than they have dealing with us (on average.) It's difficult to design a study around. Calling it post-modern is just a slur. It's easier to say that you don't believe it.

lukev 6y ago

If you wait to do anything about systemic racism until it's fully quantified, it will be a long time until we can make any progress. Meanwhile, a central point of the book is one that should be self evident. Talking about racism makes white people[1] uncomfortable. I know this to be true from experience. And we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations about racism. I don't see how you need "statistical power" to recognize this or adopt this strategy. Also, this: > ccuse/blame them for something that they did not personally do That's not what the discomfort is about. Of course none of us are _personally_ responsible for the systemic racism in the US. But if we can't even talk about it without getting uncomfortable, how are we going to fix it? 1: If this doesn't apply to you, great, I wasn't talking about you [2] 2: Except if this topic makes you annoyed enough to disagree then yes, I probably am talking about you.

pdonis 6y ago
> we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations about racism. I am all for having frank conversations, but I think the topic needs to be broader than "racism". It needs to be "systematic inequality of treatment". Or even better, "systematic violations of basic human rights". Then we can focus on why our society, which is supposed to be based on everybody having the same basic human rights, is not achieving that in practice, and how to fix it. Focusing on one particular group of people whose rights are being violated only distracts from that overall objective.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  Why do we have to talk about everything bad before we talk about one thing that's bad, especially when it comes to black people? Why, when the aftereffects of American slavery are being discussed, is there always somebody who says that we have to talk about Middle Eastern and African slavery first? Are the only important problems universal ones?
  - Avicebron 6y ago
    No but it comes off as disingenuous because people talk about a lot of ill in the US without getting the level of outrage that this topic brings, rampant inequality, corporate stranglehold of the government and horrible work conditions for many people, regardless of the color of their skin. So when someone says, lets talk about more than this problem, they get sidelined and everything else is pushed further to the back burner.

jfrankamp 6y ago

> Statistical knowledge isn't present in the vast majority of these folks. This seems like a key moment to... cite data? Since you are broadly making pseudo-mathy sounding claims while complaining that others aren't as mathematically/statistically/factually rigorous as 'people on HN'.

charlesu 6y ago

> Another interesting aspect I identified while reading the book was it's description of the emotions that one can expect to see when confronting white people about race issues: the description could have been used to describe any human being you will ever meet when you accuse/blame them for something that they did not personally do. I've heard this before and don't understand it. Why should talking about racial issues make people feel like they're being accused of something? I am a man. I have not be catcalled or threatened for rejecting someone's advances. I can't recall any prominent examples of witnessing a woman being threatened for rejecting a man's advances. But when a woman tells me that it happens to her, I don't feel guilty. So I don't understand how someone telling you about their experience leads to feeling like being accused or blamed for something you did not do.

RonanTheGrey 6y ago
Here's an example. You've never catcalled. You've never been catcalled. You've never been threatened for rejecting someone's advances and you've never threatened when yours were rejected. That same woman comes to you and says "All men are sexist and do not respect women, and that includes you. You are horrible. You deserve to know how I feel." How would you respond? I would think "favorably" would not be high on your list. THAT is the type of discourse being used about race. It is not helpful. It doesn't identify the problems. It doesn't empower people to fix them. It doesn't inspire them to. I'm truly not sure what people think they are accomplishing to be honest.