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I wonder if it's bigger than Sealand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand When I look a

I wonder if it's bigger than Sealand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand When I look at the list of demands I'm pretty quick to dismiss it. Then I remember how I dismissed the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle too, and how many of the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two decades. I might be too hopeful, but I really think the city leadership should talk to them and hear them out, instead of just trying to push them over.

kf 6y ago
The city is already cooperating and providing portable toilets and tried to replace the barricades with nice planters. It’s a national conversation now.
ncallaway 6y ago
The list of demands came from an open mic discussion. They let anyone come up and suggest a demand. Someonen transcribed those demands and then posted them. I think it would be better to view those demands as the union of demands of each person willing to speak to a crowd. Which is why you see inconsistency in then, why it's such a long list, etc. I just think that list of demands is better understood in that context.
- tomschlick 6y ago
  Its not a list of demands if it's ridiculous and can't be realistically filled. At that point its just a list of wishes.
  - floren 6y ago
    Rather reminds me of the demands that used to come out when students would occupy a university building back in the 60s, where they'd demand that the president of Cowtown College get the US out of Vietnam immediately
  - ncallaway 6y ago
    Okay. You can semantically call it whatever you want! I'm just trying to give some additional context to how this list of (demands|wishes) came about. If you view it as a single list of (demands|wishes) it doesn't make as much sense. If you view it as the (demands|wishes) from a wide variety of people, that were made on an open mic at a protest that was transcribed, then categorized, then posted to the internet, it's easier to understand what it is. There are organized protest leaders that have curated their list of demands and put it out. This very much isn't that! This is basically the raw list of demands from a wide variety of different speakers. The only editing was in the transcription and the categorization of those demands.
  - pnako 6y ago
    Maybe those protesters are all sales guys or product managers.
  - vangelis 6y ago
    Actually, it feels very democratic. Everyone has their say, but not everyone is going to be fulfilled.
rayiner 6y ago
The list of demands is extremely tame for a fricking anarchist commune. Look at the list of "economic demands." The biggest ask is de-gentrification and rent control.
- malandrew 6y ago
  Those asks seem pretty incompatible with property law and the legislative process. You can't just unilaterally demand something like rent control and de-gentrification measures. The city government shouldn't even have (and probably doesn't have) the power to meet such demands.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Degentrification could trivially be achieved by eminent domain, condemning existing residential property for public housing for which eligibility would be governed on rules which are incompatible with gentrification. It might be expensive, even prohibitively so, to do on a broad scale, but in terms of legal authority it's well within the scope of powers that local governments usually have. Note that rent control, even if the city doesn't have the power to establish it for private rentals, can effectively be achieved by the same means.
    - hedora 6y ago
      There is legal precedent to use imminent domain to transfer wealth from one individual to another. Usually it’s stealing from the poor, and giving to real estate developers. There’d be a certain amount of deferred justice in doing that, but I’d rather the practice simply be banned.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      IANAL but I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to use eminent domain to confiscate the homes of citizens based on their race. The law doesn’t make provisions for unpopular races as far as I know.
      - 6y ago
harryh 6y ago
many of the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two decades Is there a list of these fears somewhere? Ideally as presented at the time.
- kasey_junk 6y ago
  It’s hard to enumerate the list as if it were some soviet collective document because one of the interesting parts of the wto protests were how decentralized they were. In that they were thoroughly modern. But 2 issues that stand out as prescient are the environmental impact of an ascendant China and the changes to the US middle class globalization would render.
- 0x262d 6y ago
  well, globalization on neoliberal terms has continued to hollow out living standards in advanced countries while turning neocolonial countries into large sweatshops. the life expectancy in the US has fallen for 2 or 3 years in a row now largely as a downstream result of this. that is my understanding of one major concern from that.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    What does “neoliberal” mean in this context?
    - hedora 6y ago
      I think of neoliberalism and neoconservativism as offshoots of corporatism, which is the idea that government can most efficiently serve the people by protecting the interests of corporations above all else. This leads to the idea that regulatory capture is economically efficient (“Who is better qualified to regulate industry than successful industrialists?”) It also leads to things like banning class action law suits, allowing binding arbitration, and allowing individuals to sign away arbitrary rights by implicitly accepting non-negotiated contracts they haven’t even seen. Oakland has commercial enforcement zones, where private police enforce the law. The idea is that business owners weren’t getting a good deal by paying taxes to fund the police, because it was subsidizing law enforcement in residential areas. Instead, the merchants hire their own police, and pay less taxes. Oakland’s (mostly poor, black) residents fund the police that protect them out of their own taxes. Anyway, you get the idea. Back to your question: Neoconservatives generally think corporatism is best achieved by dismantling the government (“repeal Obamacare”). Neoliberals think it is best achieved by restructuring it (mandate health insurance for all). (Contrast that with the populists in that debate. They want to dismantle the health insurance industry and replace it with medicare.) Usually, when people talk about moderates in the US, they mean corporatists. The MAGA crowd are mostly “right wing” populists (xenophobic, “America first”, bring back factory jobs), the BLM types tend to be “left wing” populists. If you look up corporatism, you’ll see it is a shortened form of “corporate fascism”. I don’t think that term is particularly constructive, though it is accurate: the MAGA and BLM movements both accuse the establishment of being fascist. One side targets neoliberals, the other, neocons. As General Mattis pointed out last week, divided we fall.

kf 6y ago

The city is already cooperating and providing portable toilets and tried to replace the barricades with nice planters. It’s a national conversation now.

ncallaway 6y ago

The list of demands came from an open mic discussion. They let anyone come up and suggest a demand. Someonen transcribed those demands and then posted them. I think it would be better to view those demands as the union of demands of each person willing to speak to a crowd. Which is why you see inconsistency in then, why it's such a long list, etc. I just think that list of demands is better understood in that context.

tomschlick 6y ago
Its not a list of demands if it's ridiculous and can't be realistically filled. At that point its just a list of wishes.
- floren 6y ago
  Rather reminds me of the demands that used to come out when students would occupy a university building back in the 60s, where they'd demand that the president of Cowtown College get the US out of Vietnam immediately
- ncallaway 6y ago
  Okay. You can semantically call it whatever you want! I'm just trying to give some additional context to how this list of (demands|wishes) came about. If you view it as a single list of (demands|wishes) it doesn't make as much sense. If you view it as the (demands|wishes) from a wide variety of people, that were made on an open mic at a protest that was transcribed, then categorized, then posted to the internet, it's easier to understand what it is. There are organized protest leaders that have curated their list of demands and put it out. This very much isn't that! This is basically the raw list of demands from a wide variety of different speakers. The only editing was in the transcription and the categorization of those demands.
- pnako 6y ago
  Maybe those protesters are all sales guys or product managers.
- vangelis 6y ago
  Actually, it feels very democratic. Everyone has their say, but not everyone is going to be fulfilled.

rayiner 6y ago

The list of demands is extremely tame for a fricking anarchist commune. Look at the list of "economic demands." The biggest ask is de-gentrification and rent control.

malandrew 6y ago
Those asks seem pretty incompatible with property law and the legislative process. You can't just unilaterally demand something like rent control and de-gentrification measures. The city government shouldn't even have (and probably doesn't have) the power to meet such demands.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Degentrification could trivially be achieved by eminent domain, condemning existing residential property for public housing for which eligibility would be governed on rules which are incompatible with gentrification. It might be expensive, even prohibitively so, to do on a broad scale, but in terms of legal authority it's well within the scope of powers that local governments usually have. Note that rent control, even if the city doesn't have the power to establish it for private rentals, can effectively be achieved by the same means.
  - hedora 6y ago
    There is legal precedent to use imminent domain to transfer wealth from one individual to another. Usually it’s stealing from the poor, and giving to real estate developers. There’d be a certain amount of deferred justice in doing that, but I’d rather the practice simply be banned.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    IANAL but I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to use eminent domain to confiscate the homes of citizens based on their race. The law doesn’t make provisions for unpopular races as far as I know.
    - 6y ago

harryh 6y ago

many of the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two decades Is there a list of these fears somewhere? Ideally as presented at the time.

kasey_junk 6y ago
It’s hard to enumerate the list as if it were some soviet collective document because one of the interesting parts of the wto protests were how decentralized they were. In that they were thoroughly modern. But 2 issues that stand out as prescient are the environmental impact of an ascendant China and the changes to the US middle class globalization would render.
0x262d 6y ago
well, globalization on neoliberal terms has continued to hollow out living standards in advanced countries while turning neocolonial countries into large sweatshops. the life expectancy in the US has fallen for 2 or 3 years in a row now largely as a downstream result of this. that is my understanding of one major concern from that.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  What does “neoliberal” mean in this context?
  - hedora 6y ago
    I think of neoliberalism and neoconservativism as offshoots of corporatism, which is the idea that government can most efficiently serve the people by protecting the interests of corporations above all else. This leads to the idea that regulatory capture is economically efficient (“Who is better qualified to regulate industry than successful industrialists?”) It also leads to things like banning class action law suits, allowing binding arbitration, and allowing individuals to sign away arbitrary rights by implicitly accepting non-negotiated contracts they haven’t even seen. Oakland has commercial enforcement zones, where private police enforce the law. The idea is that business owners weren’t getting a good deal by paying taxes to fund the police, because it was subsidizing law enforcement in residential areas. Instead, the merchants hire their own police, and pay less taxes. Oakland’s (mostly poor, black) residents fund the police that protect them out of their own taxes. Anyway, you get the idea. Back to your question: Neoconservatives generally think corporatism is best achieved by dismantling the government (“repeal Obamacare”). Neoliberals think it is best achieved by restructuring it (mandate health insurance for all). (Contrast that with the populists in that debate. They want to dismantle the health insurance industry and replace it with medicare.) Usually, when people talk about moderates in the US, they mean corporatists. The MAGA crowd are mostly “right wing” populists (xenophobic, “America first”, bring back factory jobs), the BLM types tend to be “left wing” populists. If you look up corporatism, you’ll see it is a shortened form of “corporate fascism”. I don’t think that term is particularly constructive, though it is accurate: the MAGA and BLM movements both accuse the establishment of being fascist. One side targets neoliberals, the other, neocons. As General Mattis pointed out last week, divided we fall.