6 ms·

Why do it through university when you have the internet and can more effectively learn things by yourself?

TeaDrunk 6y ago
Exposure to peers.
mikekchar 6y ago
Not the OP, and it's definitely not my style, but some people really like taking classes. They love the environment and energy that a university life gives them. I've known one or two people who have spent decades just taking classes (and accumulating degrees).
- rajlego 6y ago
  This is really weird to me but to each their own. I think it's partially because of ADHD but I really hate doing HW/writing essays that I feel are useless, which tends to be pretty common in uni.
tasogare 6y ago
That’s tech biaised perspective. For a lot of topics there isn’t much resources available online, or not of good quality enough to get started and for this university classes are really helpful. Moreover, university and using the internet are not mutually exclusive: a lot of universities offers remote degrees. Depending on the languages you speak it can be very cheap (French univ are around 400€/year + one travel for final exam).
- anonymousDan 6y ago
  That's interesting, can you point me to any good resources on remote degrees (especially MSc) from French universities? My brother really wants to do one part time but can't afford it.
  - tasogare 6y ago
    Yes, this website aggregates most of what is available: https://www.fied.fr/ https://www.fied.fr/ It’s seems they redesigned it recently and it’s not super usable in mobile, but this is golden mine.
- rajlego 6y ago
  While I'm fairly interested in tech things, I don't really have a tech background. Could you give me an example of topics with few resources online? The majority of subjects I can think of have good resources online, the only issue is navigating them as a beginner (which can be helped by finding some sort of mentor). There are sites like MIT courseware that are completely free and allow online learning. Though of course, there are signaling benefits to online degrees.
  - tasogare 6y ago
    > Could you give me an example of topics with few resources online? Czech and Sumerian. Too much ressources is also a problem, as you said, because navigating into them is difficult for a beginner.
mbreese 6y ago
I would say because there are things that you can more effectively directly from others. It's easy to learn facts by yourself. It's more difficult to learn what they mean, or how to analyze them, or (sometimes) even how to pronounce the terms. (Side note: maybe this is why there are such great debates in the tech world about pronunciations...) That's not to say you can't learn remotely, but rather than in many fields, it certainly helps to have a teacher/guide.
- rajlego 6y ago
  I think there's a huge difference between having a guide and being in university. Having a guide is really helpful but going to university for that benefit feels a bit misguided because you're stuck learning what other people think you should rather than what you could actually apply.
danielscrubs 6y ago
You are correct in that regard. But universities really make you push through those things you are not motivated enough to do (and subjects that seems to have no purpose) and many times you find out it was fun after grooking it and it actually made a lot of other things way easier. The first week after the exam you might be upset over the exam, feel something was unfair, but eventually those feelings fade away and you have another telescope to view the world through and arguably you have gained some grit. The universities are a guiding hand off what the experts in their field find important to know. It's a bit like ordering the chef's choice in a restaurant. Sure you might hate a piece and never come back, but you might also find new combinations of flavours that you start to love but looked tasteless. Anyway how many of us haven't felt great because we can code and suddenly we are more logical? What happens when you suddenly start to study logic or even learn something extremely simple as De Morgan's laws [1]? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws PS. I would also say that good universities are very, very different from high school. When the professors say something, they've studied it for years so they use precise language and are strict in their teaching. Definitions mean everything for them and you can't just say language is fluid to score a point which seems popular nowadays. PPS. University is free in my country, so I don't consider cost-effectiveness to get a job. Especially as it seems pretty much anyone can get a coding-gig (we had a hot-shot consultant from a very prestigious firm (if you have lived in US, you've heard of it) ask me why his CSV file wouldn't work in our software. He had just taken an Excel-file and renamed the file-ending to CSV instead of exporting it! He could code, it was just that his knowledge was very, very shallow. We where quite expensive too).
- rajlego 6y ago
  >But universities really make you push through those things you are not motivated enough to do (and subjects that seems to have no purpose) and many times you find out it was fun after grooking it and it actually made a lot of other things way easier. The first week after the exam you might be upset over the exam, feel something was unfair, but eventually those feelings fade away and you have another telescope to view the world through and arguably you have gained some grit. The universities are a guiding hand off what the experts in their field find important to know. I really strongly disagree with this. Good learning is inherently pleasurable[1] and if it isn't then there's something wrong. If a subject doesn't feel like it has enough purpose, it's not worth taking. Your brain is a fairly good predictor of that, contrary to what school would lead you to believe. I think overall you'd be way better off just learning the things that you want to learn, that are applicable to something you actually care about instead of taking a class and learning things your brain tells you are useless and you will probably never use. I haven't read it in depth but I think ultralearning is interesting for the learning-for-application approach. I'm probably a bit biased though because I use incremental reading[2] and no matter how good university teaching is it just can't compare to learning by myself (with occasional help from an expert, rather than being handheld) [1] https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning [2] https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_reading https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_reading
lordnacho 6y ago
While I do think a lot can be learned on your own, university in the traditional way gives you some things you might find useful: - Peers that aren't just voices on an internet board - Validation of the syllabus, and a sense of which parts are more important in the field. For instance, my econ tutor who was a famous Marxist didn't find it of high importance for me to study Marx. - A timeline that is relatively inflexible. If you're in uni you need to learn how that proof works be the time of the exam, and you'll have to put off other things in your life. Outside of uni you can learn it today or when those things have happened.
- rajlego 6y ago
  The main benefits I would agree on are signaling and networking. I am much less certain about the depending on university to force yourself to study things and being handheld by a prof/tutor. Flagellation by university to get yourself to learn things is not a reliable long-term means of learning. I think it's far better (and I have had more success) when I learn for myself. While there is some benefit in having a mentor, I think being handled and being told exactly what to learn isn't the most productive. A lot of times you'll end up learning really useless things as opposed to listening to your brain which generally has a decent grasp on figuring out what is worth learning to actually apply.
  - Marcus316 6y ago
    The statement "being told exactly what to learn" is so counter to my own university experience (admittedly almost 20 years ago now). It seems to me that going to university to be told what to learn is counter to the actual goal of going to university, namely to have first-class access to resources (people resources, knowledge resources, laboratory resources) to pursue your own learning goals. I've been tempted to go back to university in order to learn more about organic chemistry and chemical engineering, for instance. There's certainly a lot of information online, but a world-class chemistry lab with access to chemicals would be a great resource to have available to me, along with readily available mentors to help guide me when I have questions. As for homework and essays, that sounds more like high school than university, from what I remember. It's always possible things have changed in the last 15 years, though.
bregma 6y ago
Google is not a very good teacher for learning about stuff you didn't even know you didn't know about. Sure, it's not impossible on your own, but it's where formalized education excels. University is also an excellent facility for making contacts in your field. Not every expert hangs out on Slack.
jimbokun 6y ago
Most of the arguments for/against work from home/work in an office setting for business apply to in person university/online learning, too.
rfrey 6y ago
Teadrunk said it in another reply - peers. I really want to hang out around smart, curiosity-driven people who are pushing the boundaries of knowledge. I realize that describes a small subset of PhD candidates and professors, but I believe they exist.
PeterisP 6y ago
People are very different, and most can't learn more effectively by themselves. This is an approach that works well for some students and very poorly for the majority for whom a structured learning environment is pretty much a prerequisite for sustained progress.
edge17 6y ago
People learn effectively in different ways. In my mid-30's, I've come to realize that I get the most from my time taking university classes to study robotics vs trying to learn it on my own. For me, I find the added pressure of a grade helps push me harder. As a younger person grades were annoying, but as an older person I just use the pressure to my own advantage.
jmeister 6y ago
A PhD is supposed to train you to formulate, grapple with, and solve novel problems that contribute to the progress of the chosen field. As well as prepare to train students in the future. It’s a skill that cannot be learnt from books or lecture videos. You need intimate apprenticeship under an expert.

Exposure to peers.

Not the OP, and it's definitely not my style, but some people really like taking classes. They love the environment and energy that a university life gives them. I've known one or two people who have spent decades just taking classes (and accumulating degrees).

rajlego 6y ago
This is really weird to me but to each their own. I think it's partially because of ADHD but I really hate doing HW/writing essays that I feel are useless, which tends to be pretty common in uni.

tasogare 6y ago

That’s tech biaised perspective. For a lot of topics there isn’t much resources available online, or not of good quality enough to get started and for this university classes are really helpful. Moreover, university and using the internet are not mutually exclusive: a lot of universities offers remote degrees. Depending on the languages you speak it can be very cheap (French univ are around 400€/year + one travel for final exam).

anonymousDan 6y ago
That's interesting, can you point me to any good resources on remote degrees (especially MSc) from French universities? My brother really wants to do one part time but can't afford it.
- tasogare 6y ago
  Yes, this website aggregates most of what is available: https://www.fied.fr/ https://www.fied.fr/ It’s seems they redesigned it recently and it’s not super usable in mobile, but this is golden mine.
rajlego 6y ago
While I'm fairly interested in tech things, I don't really have a tech background. Could you give me an example of topics with few resources online? The majority of subjects I can think of have good resources online, the only issue is navigating them as a beginner (which can be helped by finding some sort of mentor). There are sites like MIT courseware that are completely free and allow online learning. Though of course, there are signaling benefits to online degrees.
- tasogare 6y ago
  > Could you give me an example of topics with few resources online? Czech and Sumerian. Too much ressources is also a problem, as you said, because navigating into them is difficult for a beginner.

mbreese 6y ago

I would say because there are things that you can more effectively directly from others. It's easy to learn facts by yourself. It's more difficult to learn what they mean, or how to analyze them, or (sometimes) even how to pronounce the terms. (Side note: maybe this is why there are such great debates in the tech world about pronunciations...) That's not to say you can't learn remotely, but rather than in many fields, it certainly helps to have a teacher/guide.

rajlego 6y ago
I think there's a huge difference between having a guide and being in university. Having a guide is really helpful but going to university for that benefit feels a bit misguided because you're stuck learning what other people think you should rather than what you could actually apply.

danielscrubs 6y ago

You are correct in that regard. But universities really make you push through those things you are not motivated enough to do (and subjects that seems to have no purpose) and many times you find out it was fun after grooking it and it actually made a lot of other things way easier. The first week after the exam you might be upset over the exam, feel something was unfair, but eventually those feelings fade away and you have another telescope to view the world through and arguably you have gained some grit. The universities are a guiding hand off what the experts in their field find important to know. It's a bit like ordering the chef's choice in a restaurant. Sure you might hate a piece and never come back, but you might also find new combinations of flavours that you start to love but looked tasteless. Anyway how many of us haven't felt great because we can code and suddenly we are more logical? What happens when you suddenly start to study logic or even learn something extremely simple as De Morgan's laws [1]? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Morgan%27s_laws PS. I would also say that good universities are very, very different from high school. When the professors say something, they've studied it for years so they use precise language and are strict in their teaching. Definitions mean everything for them and you can't just say language is fluid to score a point which seems popular nowadays. PPS. University is free in my country, so I don't consider cost-effectiveness to get a job. Especially as it seems pretty much anyone can get a coding-gig (we had a hot-shot consultant from a very prestigious firm (if you have lived in US, you've heard of it) ask me why his CSV file wouldn't work in our software. He had just taken an Excel-file and renamed the file-ending to CSV instead of exporting it! He could code, it was just that his knowledge was very, very shallow. We where quite expensive too).

rajlego 6y ago
>But universities really make you push through those things you are not motivated enough to do (and subjects that seems to have no purpose) and many times you find out it was fun after grooking it and it actually made a lot of other things way easier. The first week after the exam you might be upset over the exam, feel something was unfair, but eventually those feelings fade away and you have another telescope to view the world through and arguably you have gained some grit. The universities are a guiding hand off what the experts in their field find important to know. I really strongly disagree with this. Good learning is inherently pleasurable[1] and if it isn't then there's something wrong. If a subject doesn't feel like it has enough purpose, it's not worth taking. Your brain is a fairly good predictor of that, contrary to what school would lead you to believe. I think overall you'd be way better off just learning the things that you want to learn, that are applicable to something you actually care about instead of taking a class and learning things your brain tells you are useless and you will probably never use. I haven't read it in depth but I think ultralearning is interesting for the learning-for-application approach. I'm probably a bit biased though because I use incremental reading[2] and no matter how good university teaching is it just can't compare to learning by myself (with occasional help from an expert, rather than being handheld) [1] https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning [2] https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_reading https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_reading

lordnacho 6y ago

While I do think a lot can be learned on your own, university in the traditional way gives you some things you might find useful: - Peers that aren't just voices on an internet board - Validation of the syllabus, and a sense of which parts are more important in the field. For instance, my econ tutor who was a famous Marxist didn't find it of high importance for me to study Marx. - A timeline that is relatively inflexible. If you're in uni you need to learn how that proof works be the time of the exam, and you'll have to put off other things in your life. Outside of uni you can learn it today or when those things have happened.

rajlego 6y ago
The main benefits I would agree on are signaling and networking. I am much less certain about the depending on university to force yourself to study things and being handheld by a prof/tutor. Flagellation by university to get yourself to learn things is not a reliable long-term means of learning. I think it's far better (and I have had more success) when I learn for myself. While there is some benefit in having a mentor, I think being handled and being told exactly what to learn isn't the most productive. A lot of times you'll end up learning really useless things as opposed to listening to your brain which generally has a decent grasp on figuring out what is worth learning to actually apply.
- Marcus316 6y ago
  The statement "being told exactly what to learn" is so counter to my own university experience (admittedly almost 20 years ago now). It seems to me that going to university to be told what to learn is counter to the actual goal of going to university, namely to have first-class access to resources (people resources, knowledge resources, laboratory resources) to pursue your own learning goals. I've been tempted to go back to university in order to learn more about organic chemistry and chemical engineering, for instance. There's certainly a lot of information online, but a world-class chemistry lab with access to chemicals would be a great resource to have available to me, along with readily available mentors to help guide me when I have questions. As for homework and essays, that sounds more like high school than university, from what I remember. It's always possible things have changed in the last 15 years, though.

bregma 6y ago

Google is not a very good teacher for learning about stuff you didn't even know you didn't know about. Sure, it's not impossible on your own, but it's where formalized education excels. University is also an excellent facility for making contacts in your field. Not every expert hangs out on Slack.

jimbokun 6y ago

Most of the arguments for/against work from home/work in an office setting for business apply to in person university/online learning, too.

rfrey 6y ago

Teadrunk said it in another reply - peers. I really want to hang out around smart, curiosity-driven people who are pushing the boundaries of knowledge. I realize that describes a small subset of PhD candidates and professors, but I believe they exist.

PeterisP 6y ago

People are very different, and most can't learn more effectively by themselves. This is an approach that works well for some students and very poorly for the majority for whom a structured learning environment is pretty much a prerequisite for sustained progress.

edge17 6y ago

People learn effectively in different ways. In my mid-30's, I've come to realize that I get the most from my time taking university classes to study robotics vs trying to learn it on my own. For me, I find the added pressure of a grade helps push me harder. As a younger person grades were annoying, but as an older person I just use the pressure to my own advantage.

jmeister 6y ago

A PhD is supposed to train you to formulate, grapple with, and solve novel problems that contribute to the progress of the chosen field. As well as prepare to train students in the future. It’s a skill that cannot be learnt from books or lecture videos. You need intimate apprenticeship under an expert.