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Ask HN: Canada for tech jobs?

• lordleft 6y ago
  My impression as a citizen of the US is that the social welfare in Canada is more robust, but salaries are lower on average. For some folks the peace of mind of knowing your healthcare isn't tethered to your job is worth the reduction in income; for others, they can make so much in the states that they feel it's worth it to try to build a career there. Just my highly anecdotal 2 cents.
• cloudking 6y ago
  Waterloo, Ontario
• mynegation 6y ago
  From where and what is your visa status? Is now a good time for anything? If you go through temp work permit or immigration route, these things were not fast before, they sure are even slower now. If you do move, Toronto, Waterloo, Vancouver, Ottawa are good places in that order. Do not know much about Montreal, but outside of those you will be having a hard time finding anything. Data science - I cannot speak much about it, but if you want to do that, governement and healthcare is probably your best bet.
• darepublic 6y ago
  You can do data science at banking institutions in Toronto, though the pay will probably be much lower than elsewhere
• thinkingkong 6y ago
  Vancouver and Toronto are developing rather robust local economies. Vancouvers is more satellite offices for large American companies like Amazon (15k). Shopify announced prior to Covid that they were opening an office with 1000 people. A large portion of the jobs here have traditionally been as a visa clearing house prior to having people move to the main campus but there are lots of locals. The biggest challenge in tech in Canada is salaries. Youre paid less and then youre paid in CAD which is around 70% of USD. Then you factor in high house prices in both Toronto and Vancouver and things arent so great. If youre willing to live outside these areas then there are lots of opportunities. Canada as a country in general is great, but it has its own set of issues. Namely a lame resource extraction based economy and a hyper willingness to sell all its assets - information economy and otherwise - at discount prices to boost jobs.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • riskneutral 6y ago
    The biggest issue in Canada is a lack of imagination and risk taking by the capitalist class. They would rather stick to what they know, digging rocks and sand out of the ground.
    • dang 6y ago
      That's harsh and put in a flamebaity rather than interest-furthering way (which, please don't on HN!) but I think it's true that Canada is more risk-averse than the US. If you think about it, that can be traced straight back to the founding of the two countries. The two populations even self-selected for risk tolerance to some extent. (I'm talking about English-speaking Canada.)
• swinnipeg 6y ago
  Salaries are a different story in Canada compared to the USA. They are far less in Canada, a $200K CAD ($150K USD) tech job is rare, actually, $150K CAD ($112K USD) are also uncommon. Best job opportunities are in high COL locations (Vancouver, Toronto), followed by Montreal. But unlike the USA the compensation (for MOST employees) in those markets is only moderately higher than lower COL locations. (Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg...etc).
  • baseballMan 6y ago
    On top of the lower base salaries, the compensation you receive in the form of stocks is also a good bit lower.
    • CountSessine 6y ago
      Exactly - don’t expect hundreds of thousands of dollars of option grants. The equities markets are really very different here and without good exits, there won’t be good options and equities grants.
  • brailsafe 6y ago
    Name checks out. I'm from Winnipeg as well and moved to Van 5 years ago. Salaries, diversification of market, proximity to other cities, and proximity to the kinds of nature I like, and better climate are the obvious benefits. Have you stayed? I find that I actually ssave money by living in Van than Winnipeg, with a higher potential salary and better options.
• dagmx 6y ago
  Canadian salaries are quite a bit lower, but I’ll be honest in saying I was happier with the quality of life in Vancouver than in the Bay, despite earning twice as much here. There is a growing tech community in Vancouver. There are more traditional tech companies like Microsoft, Amazon and Apple. There’s also film and games companies like Industrial Light and Magic, Sony Pictures Imageworks and more... It’s definitely no Bay Area in terms of number of gigs or pay, and the cost of living is almost as high, but again, I felt much happier there. It’s obviously subjective and unquantifiable, but something to research and consider too.
• MikeTheRocker 6y ago
  I'm a Canadian software that moved from Victoria, BC to San Francisco, CA to begin my career two years ago. My top earning friends in Canada of the same experience level earn 2 - 4 times less than me and my peers here. I'm saving significantly more here than them too even after a much higher cost of living. The quality of life here is worse though in some ways. Most of all I miss the politeness and generally less hostile demeanor of Canadians.
  • Voloskaya 6y ago
    > My top earning friends in Canada of the same experience level earn 2 - 4 times less than me and my peers here 2 is possible, 4 seems like a big stretch. Are you really comparing apples to apples? Or are you working for Google and comparing against someone working for a random consultancy firm in Victoria? In Montréal, top software developers salaries are around 200K CAD, a bit more if you go at Google, and Montreal pays less than other cities.
    • dleslie 6y ago
      They said it was the beginning of their career. Particularly on the island, in Victoria, it's quite possible for an entry level position to earn only around 33,000 to 45,000 CDN.
      • MikeTheRocker 6y ago
        At the risk of sounding like I'm boasting, I'll share concrete figures. I earn about $285k USD (~$380k CAD) as an L4 SWE at a FANG company. My top earning friends in BC work at companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Juul and earn about $60-$120k CAD.
        • dleslie 6y ago
          Then you're probably an outlier; that's well outside of the normal for software engineers in California based on data I can find.
• blahbhthrow3748 6y ago
  Salaries working domestically in Canada are quite a bit lower, but CoL can also be good. Shopify for instance pays ~150 for senior devs but in Ottawa or Waterloo houses are pretty affordable. I've had some luck working remotely in Canada for US companies - tax treatment of stock options is worse and they typically have few or no benefits for Canadians. On the other hand, you can have a significantly higher take home if you find the right employer.
• quake 6y ago
  Apart from the fact that Canada has closed its border with the US because of COVID, of course. Pay on average is lower, but comes with a higher degree of social security and stability. Of course, Canada is not without its own racist past or present, but it's not quite as "on display" as the US. Our previous prime minister tried to have a "barbaric cultural practices" hotline which was essentially a dogwhistle to more Islamophobic elements of the Conservative party base. That being said, I'm thankful that our police aren't tear gassing protesters in Ottawa so that Trudeau can have a photoshoot. The tech industry in general isn't as large as the US, but does carry a lot of talent. Places to note are Kitchener-Waterloo, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal and...maybe Calgary? I'm not so sure about the data science field myself, but I do know that most large tech firms around here do carry an analytics team. Edit to add: like others have noted, COL is high in Toronto and Vancouver. That being said, I absolutely loved living in Vancouver and would move back there from Waterloo in a heartbeat. If you're able to land a job and afford living there (or more likely in another Lower Mainland city), I would recommend it.
  • gpm 6y ago
    > Apart from the fact that Canada has closed its border with the US because of COVID, of course. I believe it's still open for work, it is in the other direction.
    • Alex63 6y ago
      I think you'll find it is closed, unless you have an urgent need to cross (e.g., sick parent). If you do cross, you will have to self quarantine for 2 weeks (which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to help your sick relative). Last we heard, it will be June 21 before we can visit our parents in Vancouver.
• techitvr 6y ago
  I am currently looking for a job opening, FullStack, or Mobile(Flutter or Ionic) in Canada or the US... I really don't mind the location.. any suggestions/recommendations?
• cheez 6y ago
  No. Don't do it.
• pimbrouwers 6y ago
  Toronto without question. There are some company's in Waterloo as well, Google has a presence there for example, because of the University of Waterloo. But it is not as bustling as it was when RIM was still a big thing.
  • voisin 6y ago
    Not just a presence - it is their Canadian head office with more employees than they have in the rest of the country combined. K-W is easily 2-3x more bustling today than it was when RIM was booming. RIM sucked talent to the suburbs where it diffused outward and failed to seed any amenity concentration. That talent is all in the core now and has led to a massive resurgence including dozens of bars and restaurants and other amenities.
    • pimbrouwers 6y ago
      So glad to hear that!
• d_burfoot 6y ago
  Can someone knowledgeable about this issue comment about legal / tax feasibility of getting a remote job with a US company and living in Canada or elsewhere abroad?
  • dleslie 6y ago
    I work for an American company and live in Metro Vancouver. In fact, around half the team lives here. We own shares in the American company and are paid through a Canadian subsidiary. That compensation scheme avoids burdening the employees with the difficulty of declaring foreign earnings come tax time. So for the most part it's the same as working for a Canadian company, but the pay is better.
    • tfleming 6y ago
      Awesome! That's like the ideal situation right there. I'm an American that moved to Canada back in 2002 and worked as a contractor for my US employer for more than 4 years. The yearly tax stuff drove me insane.
      • dleslie 6y ago
        It's not so much ideal as a nice compromise. I'm still earning much less than I would with similar experience doing similar work in _Seattle_, but I get to stay in Canada and earn more than I could easily manage working for a local company.
  • jimgo84 6y ago
    Do you have any specific questions? I am a Canadian, living in Canada, working remotely for a bay area company. Non-us based employees at the company are technically contractors where I work. It's pretty easy come tax time. You need to pay the full cpp amount, as opposed to half if you were working for a Canadian company, and I find the tax writeoffs to be quite meager, but I don't have any complaints in general.
    • Caylio 6y ago
• 4636760295 6y ago
  Expect the pay to be half or less, but you get better overall benefits, a higher standard of living, in exchange for long winters and a mostly car-based society.
  • dleslie 6y ago
    > a mostly car-based society. I haven't commuted by car in ... 17 years. I work in the Metro Vancouver area.
    • mthoms 6y ago
      Yeah I think Vancouver is an exception to the parent's comment. It's certainly true in Calgary, Toronto, Montreal etc (IMHO).
      • Voloskaya 6y ago
        Haven't used a car in 10 years in Montréal. Toronto is the same. Unless you are talking about someone living in the suburbs and commuting to work.
      • dleslie 6y ago
        Honest, if you're willing to live and work in Calgary or Toronto then I don't see why you shouldn't move south and get paid more to live in similar cities.
      • bawolff 6y ago
        Its certainly an exception on the winter front. How walkable cities are are going to vary by city. Vancouver is very walkable. Also if you live somewhere up north, its not going to be that walkable even with a great bus system, because waiting for the bus in -30 sucks.
        • dleslie 6y ago
          Eh, it's a dry cold. I've a good friend working in Nunavut right now and she walks to work. The trick is that her rental is nestled in the center of town; and the town is so small that there's no need for a car.
• ab_testing 6y ago
  I think it depends what country are your from? Lots of Canadians here will suggest to move to the United States for higher pay and better opportunitites. But if you are from a developing country, then moving to the USA is very convulted and not an easy option for you like it is for Canadians. So, If you that is your situation, then Canada is an exciting option and you might be able to work for a lot of US companies that have Canadian options.
  • klerpi 6y ago
    This describes me perfectly. I'm from Brazil and I want to leave for another country with better life quality. The US is a nightmare regarding immigration. The Canadian system is straight forward for qualified people.
• loufe 6y ago
  If you're considering Montréal, do your research before. French language is not a requirement to get by day-to-day in the city (though elsewhere in the province is another story). We have a decent tech sector with some big companies like CAE, Mindgeek, and Hopper. There is also a respectable AI research scene and an incresing amount of startups in the city. If you're open to learning French (a good chunk of jobs require it) and have any data centre credibility, you might be on a good trajectory. Québec has super low electricity costs and data centres are interested for that reason. The city has a low cost of living, high provincial taxes, but a top notch cultural scene, bar scene, festival scene, etc. If not Montréal, Toronto or Vancouver have their callings but most tech folks I studied with headed off to the states for higher wages - but I imagine many of them will return with stacked savings accounts at some point. As someone else pointed out, Waterloo is a special case and might be worth looking at, too.
  • Voloskaya 6y ago
    This. However I would say the reason why you really need to learn French is if you want to stay more than just a couple of year. Getting your permanent residency in Québec requires a certain level of proficiency in French. For jobs you can find plenty of them that won't require it.
  • Maven911 6y ago
    What would you say are the wages for different types of tech roles and seniority in Montreal? And how accessible are those to non-native French speakers?
    • mardifoufs 6y ago
      Your salary is probably going to be lower in Montreal, but it's much cheaper city to live in than Vancouver or Toronto. There are high paying jobs if you know where to find them, but it seems to me like a lot of the software engineers I've come across here are a little less "ambitious" and don't mind settling for a smaller salary if it means more stability. It's also very taboo here to talk about your salary (sometimes even to your SO?) but that's changing and I think it's not unique to Quebec at all. In my experience, and purely anecdotally, I've really witnessed a 2 speeds system where some people are very highly paid (120k+, keep in mind you can buy a condo in the middle of downtown for 300k) and some are getting very (40-50k) low salaries for the same amount of experience, same alma matter and probably even the same skill . How you sell yourself is always a huge factor in how much you get paid, sure, but the difference is particularly striking in Montreal imo. As for seniority, most of the teams I've seen are very young with very dynamic leads. The industry is booming right now ( or was booming before march, I'm not sure now).
• dleslie 6y ago
  Compensation is lower, but if you have a family it's probably worth it. It's education, health care, and access to parks and such are generally easy to come by, cheap/free and good; particularly in Metro Vancouver. Those things make a world of difference when raising kids.
  • remote_phone 6y ago
    Vancouver real estate is ridiculously high, especially given how low the salaries are
    • dleslie 6y ago
      Metro Vancouver isn't just the CoV; I know folks who live in Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, and Mission who commute into the CoV to work. The West Coast Express makes this a pleasant, painless and relatively swift commute.
• hourislate 6y ago
  My business partner for one of his other ventures, hired a kid who finished a degree from University of Waterloo in NANO Technology Eng as a lab tech for a starting salary of 48k. It seems like his prospects were very limited. I'm not sure if it's his career choice or if it's related to the high levels of underemployment in the Toronto tech industry in general.
  • kingkongjaffa 6y ago
    Traditional engineering, especially academic, is not very well paid compared to software engineering jobs. Source: I skipped out on a Mechanical engineering PhD to join industry for better $$, I then skipped out on Mechanical engineering industry for better w/l balance and $$ working from home in a tech role.
• designium 6y ago
  I'm sharing from Product Management perspective. - Director and above level PM can earn above: $140K CAD and beyond in major cities like Toronto. - Sr. PM can earn: above $100K CAD easily but harder to be above $150K CAD. - Bay Area - based on the current conversations I have: - Sr. PM or PM in a FAANG type company or startup: around $170K USD - Director level PM can be above $200K USD
  • I-M-S 6y ago
    I'm also a PM in Toronto and looking for opportunities in post-Covid world. I'd love to connect - my contact info is under my profile
• actuator 6y ago
  Seeing a lot of comments about low salaries in Canada, is there anywhere outside US that salaries are that good in tech? London, I know is about half of US if you look at FAANG comps and you have higher taxation compared to a city like Seattle. Zurich, is about 70% with lower tax but a very high CoL
• motohagiography 6y ago
  If I were doing data science, I would be in Toronto, Ottawa, or Waterloo. Given the customers with enough data for that in Canada are almost all institutional, and that's where they are. You could go to Victoria, which is the capital city of BC where it's mainly government driven work, but there isn't going to be a big growth story there. You can make a living and have a comfortable lifestyle in Canada, but it is not the best place to create or build wealth. It's where to be if you bring it with you. Given the small and dispersed distribution of the population, startup level growth mainly comes from access to the US market. Access to the US market tends to mean being HQ'd there, so you get quite a few "offshored," engineering and development shops to take advantage of the currency, SRED tax credits, COL and salary differences, where the US HQ handles the revenue, product management, marketing, equity, M&A and other business decisions. The two main markets for enterprise products and dev are Toronto and Ottawa. There are only five notable banks with offices across the country and around the world, who share a largely homogeneous enterprise tech culture. Health care is a public sector business, and there is lots of opportunity to make a living in health care tech, but it is managed as a sprawling enterprise centralized economy that acts as a ceiling on growth. There are some notable examples, but they use Canada as a proving ground before going to market in the US. The way most entrepreneurial money appears to be made in Canada is by operating "recruiting and consulting firms," which provide institutions with arms length contractors that they can add and remove at will instead of dealing with the challenges of employees. Quality of life compared to american cities in decline is incomparably better. The hard part is affording it. Owning a an actual house near a metropolitan area is out of reach for first time home buyers, and places with affordable housing are outside commuting distance from anywhere that does software development. Short term rentals have sent rents skyrocketing everywhere within a 90-minute drive to Toronto. If you are already on the property ladder where you are, using that as leverage to buy a place here is the best way to do it. If you are not, it's smarter to get the capital from selling your first house as a downpayment to get you into something in Canada, as real estate is basically the only way for working people to build wealth.
• camgunz 6y ago
  I’m considering moving to Toronto or Vancouver through FSW, and my company’s fully remote so hopefully I avoid the salary cliff. You might look into a similar setup.
• Tiktaalik 6y ago
  Yes. Been working here for a decade and the tech economy is the best it's ever been. Big cos like Amazon, Microsoft have set up shop in Vancouver and are here to stay. They provide a nice fallback option to any sort of smaller startups that don't pan out. The games industry has bounced back in a big way too. The multi thousand capacity EA Games studio in Burnaby is full and they've had to get off site offices. Add on the standard benefits of Canada: * free universal healthcare means being an entrepeneur is easy. * reasonable gun regulations (no concealed carry nonsense) * generally more progressive governments than USA.
• gregsadetsky 6y ago
  Related discussion on an unrelated thread about a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329537 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23329537
• iou 6y ago
  I work in Victoria, BC earning $200k+ CAD working remote for a big US tech company. It's the best of both, live in a wonderful place and get paid well.
  • djmips 6y ago
    livin' the dream. I also live in Victoria and used to work in the US for much higher salary. I've thought about this... I do love it here!
• arxv33 6y ago
  As many others said salary is about 1.5x-2x lower. Taxes are about 7-10% higher. Cost of living in metro Toronto or Vancouver is pretty high, around the same as Seattle or DC. Housing prices are outrageous in both the metro areas. Vancouver over 1.5M for detached and Toronto around 1M.
• WatermelonMan 6y ago
  Tons of opportunities in Vancouver and Toronto at both small companies and large multinationals. But salaries are low (compared to the US) and cost of living is high. The quality of life in Canada is wonderful if you can make the numbers work. Vancouver and Toronto offer different things so I'd research which one suits you better. They're both amazing in their own way. I can't speak for Montreal which has its own unique culture unfamiliar to me, but I believe it's comparable to Vancouver and Toronto, and cost of living is better. It's a very distinct place. Smaller, more affordable cities you could consider are Ottawa, Waterloo, and Victoria. They each come with their own trade-offs but have decent tech industries. Victoria is only really affordable compared to Vancouver/Toronto but it's a very idyllic small city if that's what you're after.
• eswat 6y ago
  Past how robust the tech scene is in your desired location, you also have to ask how the pandemic will affect your time outside of work. ie: Montréal will be just as boring as Ottawa in terms of the nightlife scene for a while.
• somerandomqaguy 6y ago
  I'm Canadian that works in QA, specially in Alberta. If the US is an option, go to work in the US or for a US based company remotely. Base salary is much higher in the US. To give you an idea: at year 8 of my career my salary is technically $52,000 Canadian per year. I've had people in the Seattle telling me that number should be nearer to $100,000 USD. And my $51,000 Canadian translates to $34,000 USD when the conversation rate is considered. The difference grows when you consider that the US typically has a lower tax rate then Canada and that many US employers are usually willing to provides benefits that would cover services that normally the government would be paying for. That said, I'm only speaking as someone that works in QA and the city I live in does not have as strong a tech industry as those in British Columbia, Ontario, or Quebec.
• enjoyitasus 6y ago
  Yes
• cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  I'd personally wait 8-12 months and assess the situation then. The reason I say this is because Canada's tech scene is largely comprised of US companies near-shoring operations for cost reductions and with remote work on the rise my view is that Canada's tech scene is now in a super fragile state. There's a significant incentive for Canadian tech workers to work remotely for US companies and similarly there's a massive incentive for US companies to hire Canadians on Canadian salaries remotely. Uber, Facebook, Google, Amazon etc. had expansion in Canada planned but I wouldn't be surprised if this changes radically in the coming months. Shopify already announced it was going fully remote and then offered what were previously Canadian-only jobs out to the Americas entirely. It's not unfathomable that other Canadian companies will do the same. If remote succeeds, I cannot see what incentive would drive the further expansion of the local tech scene in Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal etc. Meetups and similar only worked because people were forced to be in the city, they were held directly after work and usually offered some sort of food/beverages as a substitute to having to sort out dinner. If the requirement to be in the city falls or is removed entirely, I cannot see what will incentivize locals to get together in a common location at anywhere near the same frequency as before. I'd recommend seeing how the rest of the year / start of next year plays out before planning anything concrete.
• friedxenon 6y ago
  If you like lower pay, higher taxes, outrageous house prices and long winters you'll love it.
• brailsafe 6y ago
  Depends on where you're coming from. Vancouver has a pretty healthy scene and is a killer location.
• aprdm 6y ago
  Depends where you’re moving from. Seems like most of the comments are comparing to the USA tech scene in a FAANG company and only the financial aspect ... nothing will compare to it if it is what you’re looking for. However not everyone is looking to work in a FAANG or to live in the USA. Canadá has a thriving tech scene and you will have a better quality of life and pay than about everywhere else in the world that isn’t a FAANG in the USA
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• csdtx 6y ago
  It could be a good place where you can network a find a way to transfer to the US. But staying in Canada permanently working in Tech is a bad idea salary wise.
• ninjaturtlez 6y ago
  I work remotely out of Kitchener for a SF company. Don't get paid the san fran dollars obviously but the quality of life and cost of living is great
• techbro 6y ago
  What’s your visa situation? I am from India - getting a US visa/green card is too much trouble. I started at a tech company in Canada at 70K Cad annually in 2008. The salary went up to 120k by 2016. In these 8 years - I went from a work permit to Canadian citizen. Also started a family with kids. I moved to Bay Area in 2016 for a non-Faang company at 200K USD annual total compensation. Moved to Faang in 2018 and comp is 400k USD. Will move back to Canada by 2020/21 and am counting on my company allowing remote due to covid. Yes it will be a salary cut but that’s fine. I want to raise my kids in Canada. Bay Area experience is worth it - financially and technical too Long term it depends on you