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USB-C is still a mess
- RajSinghLA 6y agoMessier yet is iPad Pro using USB-C while iPhone 11 Pro ships with a lightning cable that's USB-C on the other end!
- frosted-flakes 6y agoSo what happens when you connect the two together? Can you charge the iphone from the ipad, or transfer files?
- ncw96 6y agoI don’t believe you can transfer files, but you can definitely charge an iPhone with an iPad if you use a USB-C to Lightning cable.
- jleahy 6y agoBut how do you charge an iPad using an iPhone?
- beefalo 6y agoSome older usb-c devices would start charging based on order of plugging in. i.e. plug the phone side in first and the phone will start charging your iPad. Seems the defaults are smarter now and phones always prefer to receive power.
- ThePowerOfFuet 6y agoCharge yes, transfer probably not.
- nickm12 6y agoA while back I went down the USB-C charging rabbit hole with the simple goal of finding a 3rd party charger that could charge all my USB-C devices (13" Macbook, Motorola phone, Nintendo Switch) as fast as the charger that came in the box. I found it tremendously difficult to make a purchase decision; the device manufacturers and 3rd party vendors provide very little information and everyone wants their own trademark: USB-PD, Quick Charge, PowerIQ, iSmart, VoltIQ, Turbopower... it just goes on and on. However, I decided to hope for the best and get some well-reviewed USB-PD chargers and bought the following two chargers: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PLR7T1M/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PLR7T1M/ (RAVPower 61w wall charger) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075WQQG7C/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075WQQG7C/ (Necktek 45w auto charger) They work out really well and met my requirements, with the exception that the Necktek doesn't provide the full 60 watts the Macbook can use, but I knew that was the case.
- beefalo 6y agoWhy not just use the MacBook charger for everything? I've had no issues using a variety of MacBook usb-c chargers for lots of devices.
- extra88 6y agoThe RAVPower is 50% smaller than a 13-inch MacBook Pro's AC adapter while providing the same wattage. Also, the RAVPower has two ports, a USB-C and a USB Type A so you can charge two devices at a time. The RAVPower is also cheaper than buying a 2nd Apple AC adapter when you want to leave an adapter at your desk and have a 2nd one in your bag to use elsewhere.
- nickm12 6y agoWhat extra88 said. My Macbook charger is fixed at my desk and I wanted a travel charger that was compact and also had a USB-A port for other low-power devices I need to charge when I travel like my Fitbit and Kindle.
- AdrianB1 6y agoAll these names invented by phone manufacturers have nothing to do with USB-C capabilities, but to their branding.
- itsspring 6y agoHeh, just this week I was struggling to get a device to work with my laptop, until after 90+ minutes I realized there were different types of USB-C, and the one I had (the Apple charger cable) only did charging. I needed one that transmitted video, so I then went to order a $10 USB-C, only to realize those also only did charging. Finally found what I needed, but I thought USB-C was finally "universal", but turns out much of that is just marketing... Edit: Turns out the one I just bought ($40 USB-C Apple thunderbolt cable) doesn't even fit into the device because the edges are too thick. Ridiculous
- iwalton3 6y agoI bought a bunch of Micro USB cables for the same reason. Most of the ones I had on hand didn't have data lines as they were only for charging, which can be fun to troubleshoot as devices connected to the cables just don't show up.
- pantalaimon 6y agoThose are a special kind of evil. I always made sure to properly mark them to not spend time debugging non-working USB connections.
- m463 6y agoYou might want to keep them around, because sometimes you want to ONLY charge a device, without allowing the possibility of a data connection.
- pantalaimon 6y agoSure but I always flag them with red electrical tape so their true nature becomes obvious
- londons_explore 6y agoSome of them will let you trick the phone into charging with a full 2/3 amps, even though you've plugged it into a laptop or something that would normally show "charging slowly". Obviously you're relying on the laptop circuitry to not burn out, but laptops are typically designed with very robust USB circuitry because people often short them out by putting in broken cables.
- rsoto 6y agoWhen I've thought about connecting all my devices (laptop, cellphone, Nintendo Switch) and then researching a bit about it, I've deleted that thought out of fear. USB-C is a total mess, I might burn my phone if the voltage is higher than required. The only thing I know is that my laptop won't be affected because I've plugged it into the phone charger just a couple of times by mistake. Also, beware of the Nintendo Switch, it seems that the charger spec was modified a bit by Nintendo and you might damage your console if the original parts aren't used.
- TulliusCicero 6y agoIIRC the only problem with the Switch has been third party docks. I randomly interchange like five different devices with the same cables/ports (Macbook, Switch, Pixel 3, Quest, Battery pack) and have encountered no issues so far. A huge improvement compared to what I used to have to deal with.
- taeric 6y agoIronically, just before usb-c started taking over, all of my devices used the same cable for charging. Headphones, walkie talkies, portable batteries, headlight for my bike, Kindles, and my phones. All used the same cable. Was nice. Now, our phones and switches user usb-c. Everything else is still the older cables.
- TulliusCicero 6y agoYeah, micro USB was okay for that for lower power devices. The major two flaws were that it couldn’t handle bigger stuff like laptops, and the cable end itself was prone to failure (I’ve had way fewer problems with USB-C cables failing).
- asciident 6y agoNothing personal against you, but I think you're going off misleading information. It's not helpful to say "I'm afraid [blah] might happen" when [blah] is simply not happening in any real way, as much as plugging a kitchen appliance into an electrical socket might cause it to explode. If you do a bit more research, you'll find the problem is basically gone, and you're talking about a very specific situation that required multiple manufacturer errors.
- TulliusCicero 6y agoIt’s a mess, but one that’s still an improvement on what came before. I can now charge my phone, laptop, gaming system, VR headset, and USB battery pack with the same cable. Sooooo much nicer for trips.
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoAgree it’s a mess. I also agree it’s a big improvement. I plug in usb c to my monitor, and I get Ethernet, display, usb, and power. That’s all I ever wanted and I don’t think about it anymore.
- dnautics 6y agoAgreed. I don't mind that sometimes it takes longer to charge my device. The only real problem I would say is that charging only cables are not easily distinguished from charging + data cables, but that's a problem for all previous generations of small USB.
- viraptor 6y agoSo this is something I don't get about cable production. Why are companies selling cheap cables with just some wires connected, but not slightly more expensive ones with all wires? For example if there's a $10 charging-only cable, why isn't there a $15 fully-connected one - instead you have to go with more expensive brand usually at let's say $40+. Most of the cable is already there, production is happening, distribution is happening... so why is it not used for more products?
- ajross 6y agoFirstly because there's no market for it. The bulk of all USB-C devices out there are never connected to anything but a charger. Ever. When was the last time you cabled your phone to a PC or a USB client device? It works, sure. But statistically, no one does it anymore. So the market for "slightly more expensive everything connected" cables is tiny compared to the market for cables we actually want. Secondly because the product sucks. A USB1/2 cable had four conductors. A proper USB-C cable requires NINE (with significantly higher signal quality requirements on the USB-3 data line to boot). They are thicker, stiffer, harder to connect, harder to stuff into a purse, and generally a pain to work with compared with the charging cables we actually want. The root cause is this: USB3 was, in hindsight, a mistake. They squished a completely new electronic bus into an old connector for no good reason. USB-C compounded that mistake by defining a superset connector that does "Everything A USB Device Has Every Been Asked To Do", and then selling itself into a market (phones) where no one wanted that junk. And this is the result.
- AdrianB1 6y agoBecause between the $2 cheap charging cable and the $40 do-all cable there are many variations; the $2 cheap cable can be limited to USB2 speeds (480 Mbps) and 3 Amp charging, but when you go for better you can pick and combine more charging current (5A), better data speed (5 Gbps or 10 Gbps) or both. Depending on what you want, current requires thicker wires but data speed requires better electrical quality, putting everything together is more expensive. Still, you can find good cables at $15, but not in the Apple store or on Amazon, their costs and margins make the $10 cable from China retail for over $25, even $40.
- 6y ago
- sackofmugs 6y agoThis article misses the biggest issue with usb-c cables, which a lot of people don't even realize. A lot of cheaper devices can only be charged with a usb-c to usb-a cable, and not a regular usb-c to usb-c cable (C2C). Basically, they don't support C2C but people don't test or check this until they travel and realize the cable they brought doesn't work on these devices. The cause is that the devices themselves are incorrectly implemented. This ranges from toothbrushes, to flashlights (where 99% of usb-c flashlights can't do C2C), to shavers, and small electronics/appliances. The problem is there isn't a standard way to know about this (or a name for this problem), so it's hard to tell what supports it or not. Generally, devices made by well known brands support C2C, but not cheaper Chinese-made devices, but there are exceptions in both cases.
- Ductapemaster 6y agoMy Sony noise cancelling headphones (WH-1000XM3) will only charge with an A2C cable, and not with a C2C cable. I had to purchase an extra charging cable in case I lost the one that came with it, despite owning multiple C2C cables already that should work fine. If you're not going to make it compatible, why even put a USB-C port on it in the first place?
- zachberger 6y agoI have the same headphones but do not have the same issue. I regularly charge using a C2C cable.
- 6y ago
- code-faster 6y agoThere has to be a post-mortem on this. My take is that the standard is too lenient and the cables aren't color coded. Lenient standards mean that "usb-c" could support 1W or 10W and your phone plays footsy to figure out how high it can go. Pick a standard, pick a level, don't exceed the standard even if you can. Color coding? Yup. Colors. A human must be able to visually determine what specs a cable matches and doesn't match. Before, different standards had different ports, so color didn't matter. But usb c wants to be the same port for multiple standards. Fine. Color code it. It can even be a small dot by the plug, as long as it doesn't wear off.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Color coding? Yup. Colors. A human must be able to visually determine what specs a cable matches and doesn't match. Shapes (of, e.g., logos) are much better than colors as a universal label for this, though colors as an additional market are fine. Colors alone are a problem because of common defects of color perception.
- code-faster 6y agoyeah a 2d logo on the connector or a cable pattern is better, good call.
- mordechai9000 6y agoHow about keyed connectors and sockets? Why have incompatible cables with identical form factors?
- shrimp_emoji 6y agoMy mind is blown.
- m_fayer 6y agoEverything (recently) old is new again.
- 6y ago
- davidgerard 6y agoeh, USB-C is a mess, but it's got a messy problem. I've found it to be a solid improvement. I would still be delighted to swap my thicket of USB cables, and a bizarre assortment of sockets over the past fifteen years, for a world of USB-A and USB-C.
- the_pwner224 6y agoThere were only ever 4 sockets. Rectangular USB-A for host devices and the weird modified square/rectangle for client devices (printers, docks). Micro-USB for tiny client devices, which pretty much completely replaced mini-USB. One of the factors in the USB-C switch was that what were traditionally client devices, like phones, could now also be hosts. So now USB-C devices need resistors connected to a CC line to identify as host (power source) or client (power sink). Also, there were good reasons for having multiple sockets. USB-C might be rated for 10k or whatever insertions, but it is quite a bit weaker than USB-A. The ports wear out and are not as resistant to stress since they are smaller and shorter. I'm pretty sure the USB-C port on my laptop died from just plugging & unplugging a dock for 2 years. Even if it wasn't completely dead, it no longer makes a secure connection. Of course USB-A wears out too, but not as much.
- Mindless2112 6y agoThere were 10 receptacles/9 plugs[1] before USB-C. Of those 19 total, the only ones I've never seen in the wild are the USB Mini-A receptacle and the USB Micro-AB receptacle. Receptacles: USB A, USB 3.0 A SS, USB B, USB 3.0 B SS, USB Mini-A, USB Mini-AB, USB Mini-B, USB Micro-AB, USB Micro-B, USB 3.0 Micro-B SS Plugs: USB A, USB 3.0 A SS, USB B, USB 3.0 B SS, USB Mini-A, USB Mini-B, USB Micro-A, USB Micro-B, USB 3.0 Micro-B [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Host_and_device_interface_receptacles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Host_and_device_i...
- the_pwner224 6y agoBy there were only ever four sockets, I meant in practical terms, not theoretically. Also, Samsung (and a very small number of other androids) had micro USB 3 for a year or two, but it worked with normal micro USB cables and they went back to micro USB shortly afterwards.
- twarge 6y agoUSB-C is a great system. Power delivery is incredible and works really well. Having different capabilities in host, device, and cable is, of course, completely natural. I wouldn't want all my cables to be thick and expensive thunderbolt cables.
- monadic2 6y agoThick? I never would have even thought to complain about them. Sure you’re not thinking of firewire? Also doesn’t thunderbolt literally use the same form as usb-c these days? Edit: yup, thunderbolt 3 uses usb-c connectors.
- twarge 6y agoThe super thin USB-C 2.0 cables are just ideal for charging. The thicker ones with the USB 3+ signaling are great for high data rates. Just pick the one you need for the job.
- ip26 6y agoThe high power levels also need thicker cables, a 100W USB-C cable needs to carry 5 amps or so.
- the_pwner224 6y agoThunderbolt cables are super thick. And short too. With my laptop I had a USB-C dock and then upgraded to a TB dock to get 4k video out. The USB-C cable was decently thick and about 1.5 meters. The TB cable was about 0.5 meters long and super thick. Apparently the length is based on physical constraints with transmitting data at very high rates. And obviously the more individual wires you have in the cable, the thicker it is. And you need extra layers of shielding etc.
- mciancia 6y agoFYI, you can easily buy 2m tb3 cables
- epmaybe 6y agoIf it bothers you that USB-C is still a mess, but want USB-C to succeed, I suggest putting your money where your mouth is and only support manufacturers that follow the rules?
- macintux 6y agoGood luck figuring out who follows the rules.
- epmaybe 6y agoThere's no shortage of reviews for products that confirm or deny spec compliance. If you can't find it easily, maybe it's worth waiting to purchase that product..
- barrkel 6y agoReviews generally just say "works for me" or "didn't work for me" and you have no idea if the problem was at one end of the cable or the other, or the cable, or the reviewer.
- LockAndLol 6y agoLooks like the good ol' EU has to step in again and tell Apple, Huawei, Google and co to stop their bullshit, just like they did before mini-USB was forced to become the norm.
- bsder 6y agoUSB-C on a USB device(UFP-only) system is wonderful. It's quite simple--two resistors--that gets you 5V at 900mA and USB 2.0 High Speed (480Mbps). Or, if you'd like 5V at 1.5A or 3.0A--you generally need a very small and simple chip to handle the CC monitoring. That's it. The problem starts occurring when people want to do a zillion things on the port--charge their phone, charge a device, communicate with a device, serve as a device, transfer at Gbps rates, etc. Remember OTG--oh, yeah, nobody does because it worked like crap. USB-C actually did what OTG was trying to do. And, the problem mostly isn't USB-C, it's manufacturers: > All the new port has done is push some components out of the laptop and onto the other end of the cable. Exactly. And it's the reason I STILL can't get a useful USB-C hub. Samsung could have avoided the problem with PPS with <$10 of components, instead they pushed those out. Samsung doesn't even supply the "good" charger by default with their device. Don't complain about USB-C because the manufacturers are doing weird things with it to cheapen their bill of materials. > USB-C audio is basically dead as Bluetooth takes over. Until latency matters. Then suddenly Bluetooth is a pile of suck. If you're watching a video (the device can delay the video to match latency) or listening to music, fine. If you're watching something live or you are filming something live, then the latency is maddening. And that doesn't even start to deal with people who want some sort of audio app. There is a reason why "rhythm" games simply don't exist on mobile.
- fragmede 6y agoOTG worked well enough, when I was able to get the right cable (or device - there are some USB flash drives with micro-USB ports that lean on USB OTG to work). USB-C docking stations are finally hitting the market. They're pricey, but there are some with multiple USB-A ports, USB-C ports (including data), HDMI, DisplayPort, Gig Ethernet, and 3.5mm audio jacks. There are also finally Thunderbolt docks which have thunderbolt ports that connect via USB-C. (They are even more expensive though.) > There is a reason why "rhythm" games simply don't exist on mobile. Rhythm games' heyday aka DDR and Guitar Hero may have passed, but there are plenty. https://my-best.net/16982 https://my-best.net/16982 There are tons of mobile audio apps as well. Korg has a bunch of them. https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/ https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/
- 6y ago
- stblack 6y agoI think the world needs a gizmo with two USB-C terminals, one for each end of a USB-C cable, and LEDs that light for each feature supported by the cable. For data, there could be a range of LED to display the throughput of the cable. Because honestly, I have some cables and no idea what some of them can and cannot do.
- nayuki 6y agoIndeed it would be useful. This kind of cable tester device has existed for Ethernet for decades now.
- kalleboo 6y agoI have seen a couple of those, but nothing very user-friendly. E.g. https://bit-trade-one.co.jp/adusbcim/ https://bit-trade-one.co.jp/adusbcim/
- stblack 6y agoThat's brilliant. Thank you! I would have never found that :-) I wonder if software could do it, using two free ports on my laptop, a MacBook Pro.
- shifto 6y agoI saw such a thing recently, I think on Hackaday. But I can't find it now. It was pretty much what you say. A sort of pass through connector for USB cabled which would light up a LED when the wire made continuity.
- izacus 6y agoI think these articles usually ignore the fact that in most cases USB-C is a strict improvement over previous state of having a bunch of proprietary ports with proprietary cables and chargers. When it fails, even in most cases, it fails in a way that you still get some result - your device still charges, your data still transfers. More slowly, but it still works even if you need to grab a suboptimal cable. In all the other cases, you're pretty much in the same (or better) situation as you'd be with specialized proprietary port - you need a special cable (e.g. Thunderbolt 3 for fast transfers or 4k@60Hz image) which then ends up being compatible with slower and less capable devices anyway.
- joeldg 6y agoYeah and try to find a multi-port USB-C hub anywhere ... you can find them in 2x ports but one port will be 'charge only' I've looked everywhere and just given up.
- gurumeditations 6y agoUSB-C should’ve been the premium cable- high power charging and fast data transfer guaranteed. USB-A should’ve been used as the cheap cable for simple connectivity and lower power charging. Devices would naturally sort themselves out over time depending on their price bracket and the volume savings over time of USB-C production. Instead, the Forum destroyed the entire purpose of USB-C from the getgo by allowing the “universal” cable to be disintegrated for cost-cutting purposes. Now it’s no longer universal. How were they this dumb?
- mjevans 6y agoI half agree. USB-C should have had clear marking standards for TWO cables (at introduction). CHEEP, Dirt cheep, USB 2.0 baseline, minimal PD (compat with the best USB 2.0 ports) plain cable. Full Feature, USB-C premium (with a single color band and trademarked logo in color signifying a 'tested run' of product). Newer versions should have then embellished on that logo.
- fragmede 6y agoUSB-C connector may have solved the problem with USB-A of which side is up, but as a consumer, I don't even want to do that - the 3.5mm audio connector doesn't have an 'up' or 'down', and given the smarts that USB-C requires in devices, it seems a barrel connector like the audio jack could be used for power and usb 2.0-speed data.
- millette 6y agoCan the latest usb be "defanged" to only provide power and no data, as a security measure? Or are they too smart for that, now?
- Nextgrid 6y agoYou can remove USB communication between the hosts with a cable that doesn’t have any of the USB data lines, but as far as I know the lines for power delivery are required and there is still communication between the PD controllers. You can use a C to A cable (without the data lines, or plugged into yet another adapter that removes the data lines) but that will only work for phones or other low-voltage devices as you can’t get more than 5V out of it.
- millette 6y agoThanks for the info.
- TwoNineFive 6y agoThe article mentions lack of ports being a problem. I certainly would be okay with giving up my audio jack for a phone with two USB C ports. But also, this is a problem on laptops. The newest Dell XPS 13" actually decreased the number of USB C ports from 3 to 2. So now you use one port for charging, and your laptop only has a single USB port.
- llampx 6y ago> The newest Dell XPS 13" actually decreased the number of USB C ports from 3 to 2. So now you use one port for charging, and your laptop only has a single USB port. Frankly, the consumer is the idiot for mindlessly buying and not complaining about reduced functionality. Same with the newer tablets not having headphone jacks.
- staycoolboy 6y agoIs power charging speed a parameter in the spec? I thought it was simply max current delivery, but if the charger can't handle that then it sounds like a charge spec and not a USB issue? Where's the line?
- izacus 6y agoIt's part of the USB-PD specification. Some manufacturers still add proprietary extensions though, but in most cases the devices can still fast charge in other chargers.
- sebazzz 6y agoLet's put (2021) in the title please. This is not going to be resolved and it is intentionally, USB-C is universal form factor, not in universal functionality.
- akvadrako 6y agoI think USB4 will fix some of this confusion because it will require Thunderbolt cables, which do everything. Hopefully they require some sort of labeling to identify them.
- foobaw 6y agoThe author is saying linear regulators are better for high current which is questionable. He even references huawei but Huawei chargers don't even use linears. One Plus makes sense because their warp charge is ridiculous, they're doing 5V/6A which isnt even possible using USB PD protocol and theyre using a type a to c cable so clearly doing something proprietary there. If i had to guess why oneplus can't step down higher voltages, it's probably specifically designed for 5V so it only supports the 5V/3A usb PD profile (hence the ~15W with a PD charger). No clue why they didn't allow 5V/5A for 25W over USB PD since that is possible. I don't think the author mentions anywhere in his article which 60W usb PD charger was used, so its hard to say that it is a valid test. 60W normally indicates 20V/3A, so it's possible the charger could not provide 5V/5A if the oneplus 8 pro did support that. Anyway, huawei's own PD charger can charge faster over the PD protocol than this guys "60W PD Charger" according to https://www.firstxw.com/view/230511.html https://www.firstxw.com/view/230511.html.
- dzhiurgis 6y agoThere's an excellent sub for usb-c hardware: https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/