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I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages un

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why it works so poorly after years of existence, but unfortunately I'm losing hope that it'll be fixed. I sometimes feel like the Signal team doesn't use their product, or they would have noticed this. Meanwhile, yes, Matrix took years to add encryption, but it works much better than Signal, even with quite a few small bugs.

ChristianBundy 6y ago
> Meanwhile, yes, Matrix took years to add encryption, but it works much better than Signal, even with quite a few small bugs. I'm not sure which Matrix client you use, but clients like Riot don't even let you opt out of sending read receipts unless you edit `/etc/riot/config.json` to enable experiments and then go into the settings to disable read receipts. Problems like this (and issues like this [0]) give me the impression that Riot isn't designed for people who need privacy. (Yes, there are other Matrix clients [1], but my understanding is that Riot is the flagship interface.) [0]: https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/8961 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/8961 [1]: https://www.matrix.org/clients/ https://www.matrix.org/clients/
- secfirstmd 6y ago
  I'm a massive Matrix fan and have high hopes for it but in experiments we've done with activist and journalist partners we've found the Riot.im client often gets a bit complicated for people to use. I think the main issue people have is related to keys. As I techie I love the options but I find many don't like having all the options. Signal of course is a lot easier as it hides many of those issues in the UI/UX.
  - techntoke 6y ago
    I just opened my Signal desktop app that I had synced previously. It asked me to resync again with my mobile device, which needs camera permissions to take a picture of a QR code. I had previously removed Signal from my mobile device. Low and behold, my account no longer existed and I had to sign back up with a phone number. I then clicked sync and most of my messages on my desktop are gone. I don't see how this is easy by any standard.
    - BlackNitrogen 6y ago
      If I understand your description, you reset your account. They delete the messages for safety when you reset. An attacker could reset by getting ahold of your phone number by sim jacking or the govt getting your text. It's a safety method so no one can take you texts. Of course many people want to carry their texts along, but this is a safety risk if you lost control over your number. So that's what signal is doing. If I recall when I had to reset my own number they did say they were deleting my old messages.
      - techntoke 6y ago
        No, I had removed the app from my mobile previously, not deleted my account. When I resynced, they had removed my account and the messages saved on my desktop disappeared.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        sadfklsjlkjwt 6y ago
        That is the same thing. The messages were stored on your phone never on any "account". The desktop was only ever a mirror of the phone. This is explicitly how Signal works. WhatsApp works the same way. If you did not delete the Signal directory on your phone then there should be some old backups with your messages there. These will be encrypted so you will need to original password to unencrypt them.
      - 6y ago
hr2016 6y ago
I do get the occasional missing messages in the desktop client but what I notice most is that it gets unstable and weird when there is a update available (which I don't get notified about). Desktop and laptop with Ubuntu btw, signal installed via snap if I recall correctly. Have you checked if yours is up to date?
- StavrosK 6y ago
  I have the PPA set up and it autoupdates, but I will double-check, thank you.
- Well_hello 6y ago
  are you on matrix.org? could have been the issue - but they should appear at a later moment, though
  - hr2016 6y ago
    Signal with matrix.org? Not that I know of.
phyzome 6y ago
> I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. Oooooh, I've got some bad news for you.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  What is it? Riot works beautifully.
  - Aachen 6y ago
    Beautifully mediocre, but yeah it mostly works. (Never been able to use Signal so I can't compare, but Riot's encryption was completely broken until a few weeks ago, and now there is only the occasional "hold on, gotta fetch keys for 10 seconds" and slow scrolling up, etc. It can't compete with something like Telegram in terms of UX; it is infinitely better for privacy but it doesn't "work beautifully".)
    - phyzome 6y ago
      It was a non-stop shitfest of buggy encryption and broken UX last I tried. A group of us tried using it for a bit and gave up because we kept losing messages, couldn't figure out which messages were "secure" in various ways, and had confusing horizon effects where only some people could see some messages. That was a couple months ago. Maybe it has improved massively since then? I guess I'll try it again later this year.
      - Aachen 6y ago
        Definitely improved somewhere last month. Not bug-free by a long shot, but while I also gave up on it after trying it in February, I'm now using it in favor of Keybase that got bought by some shitcorp.
      - Well_hello 6y ago
        No idea what problems you have, but I have been using encryption heavily since it got enabled by default. And I have never had any issue with it - even the transfer of encryption keys in the background to verified 3rd party clients worked like a charm. But, also this experience may not have been possible before may (when they released a big update with e2ee by default).
rubatuga 6y ago
On macOS the desktop client is fine so far.
fish45 6y ago
The desktop was pretty terrible for me (on Linux) for until a few months ago, but now it works perfectly. The only thing missing is sms from the desktop but from what I understand Signal won't ever add that because sms isn't secure
- StavrosK 6y ago
  I really hope this improves, I had to reset my laptop's Signal Desktop just last week because all the messages were "couldn't decrypt" and I was missing messages on my desktop just today.
- _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
  there's still no call/video from the desktop, no?
  - solstice 6y ago
    There is an option in settings to enable camera and microphone, no? Have you tried that?
    - _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
      I have those enabled, but I don't see a way to make a voice or video call from the desktop. Maybe I'm missing something?
  - pthatcherg 6y ago
    I work on calling for Signal, and the last few months we have been working on desktop calling. It's nearly ready and will hopefully be in public beta in a matter of weeks, and (again, hopefully) fully available in a few months.
    - _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
      This is excellent news. (Desktop calling would include video calls, right?)
Krasnol 6y ago
Mabe they just don't have the problems? I never had a single one of those you listed here.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Maybe, but I have them every single time I use Desktop, so I'm puzzled that you don't.
  - Krasnol 6y ago
    It's not just me. My SO, her mother and my parents doesn't either.
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      This is semi-unrelated, but indicative: I posted a bug about photos taken in landscape showing up as portrait (ie sideways) if the screen is locked, and it was closed as "we'd like to have this fixed at some point". How is rotating photos properly not a priority for a messaging app? It's really annoying to have half your photos rotated sideways, and it screams "buggy app" to both participants of the conversation.
      - Krasnol 6y ago
        I would understand the urgency if this issue would occur in the app when you open it normally but the lock screen? Really? At this point I'd say you desperately look for something to complain about. Why don't you just not use it and check your PC? There is obviously something wrong with it.
        StavrosK 6y ago
        I'm not talking about the lock screen, I'm talking about screen lock, and I'm talking about the mobile, not the desktop. How would you even take a photo in landscape using the desktop?
rachelbythebay 6y ago
But they have stickers! Who needs good sync when you have stickers! Oh, and arbitrary emoji reactions! Seriously... I do not understand how they keep investing in this gold-plating when the plumbing keeps getting clogged up.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Stickers are important for people like my sister and wife, who are put off if the messaging app doesn't support them. I wouldn't knock their importance, but yes, good syncing should come first. EDIT: Those are two different people.
  - kasey_junk 6y ago
    Excellent edit is excellent
- kalenpw 6y ago
  Signal doesn't have arbitrary emoji reactions, that is one feature I do wish it had. Though obviously I'd prefer a better desktop client first.
  - smichel17 6y ago
    They're coming, currently in beta (source: am using the beta, it's public, check the play store page)
  - aibara 6y ago
    You can now select any emoji for a reaction in the version that was just released (at least on Android).
- Krasnol 6y ago
  Before they had stickers, people were complaining that it doesn't have stickers. Can't please 'em all.
- gingerlime 6y ago
  anecdote time: My 6 year old son just discovered the augmented-reality tricks in the LINE app (adding a mustache, hair, glasses, sound effects etc). He got my mother (68) to install it and now they use it pretty much for all their video conversations. This replaced FaceTime, despite FaceTime having better sound and picture quality (edit: and even some effects). He's in the age (and COVID-19 environment) where he starts speaking to cousins and friends online. So I imagine LINE spreading pretty quickly in similar circles based on those features alone. That's the stuff that drives adoption, as silly as it might be. That said, yes, the plumbing needs to be in working order, or no silly feature can cover over the leaks (or smell, if we're going with the metaphor).
ComputerGuru 6y ago
I knew Signal was against federation but I hadn’t realized they had pretty much banned third party clients. That would otherwise have been a really easy win for people that actually care about the system integration, performance, and architecture of desktop clients enough to shun electron “clients.”
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  The Signal team has always been open about the reason why they reject third-party clients: they claim that XMPP adoption was hindered by the inability of a user’s software to know if the software on the other end supports the same feature set. XMPP had grown into a large set of features that some clients supported and others did not. If Signal introduces a new feature, it knows that all users’ devices will support that feature, because its own software is the only game in town.
  - ComputerGuru 6y ago
    Backwards compatibility against a previous set of features isn't easy but it's certainly not impossible and graceful degradation is a thing.
    - walrus01 6y ago
      You can always define backwards compatibility that only goes to a certain lowest common denominator feature set, and no lower. For instance I have a number of httpd that support TLS1.2+ and specifically disallow SSLv3, TLS1.0 and TLS1.1. The population of browser user agents that don't understand TLS1.2 is infinitesimal at this point.
    - Paul-ish 6y ago
      It isn't clear if graceful degradation is possible in a security app.
      - ComputerGuru 6y ago
        Cases where a client is completely broken are never the problem: users will be forced to switch to a different client. It sucks, but it's no worse than the current state of affairs. A security-mandated change in protocol/behavior would fairly fall under that category.
godelski 6y ago
For what it's worth I don't have this problem on OSX, Ubuntu, or Manjaro. My roommate also uses Windows 10 and seems to be fine. During the past month I've seen more errors and hiccups. Like delays. I assume that's just a scaling issue. But I do have election apps. They just eat away resources.
kagenouta 6y ago
I, for one, have a bigger problem with it forcing the use of phone numbers as a sign-in method. They're an arbitrary identifier from a legacy system that there's not really a point in continuing to extend, because if your device is capable of anything more advanced than SMS it's also capable of... well, this. Also KaiOS and the like are making chat feasible even on feature phones. Don't get me wrong, RCS will be a fine enough fallback (once it's E2E), but standardized chat is the dream.
- toast0 6y ago
  > Don't get me wrong, RCS will be a fine enough fallback (once it's E2E), but standardized chat is the dream. Is there a plan for RCS to be E2E? Given that RCS went under the GSMA umbrella in 2008, and it's 2020 and adoption is minimal, I don't have any hopes for a future update that supports E2E to come out any time sooner than 2040, with handsets supporting it in 2050, and all endpoints supporting it in 2065; Google will have released about 30 more messangers by then, of course.
  - pkulak 6y ago
    Google's working on it, apparently.
  - kagenouta 6y ago
    Not within the spec. Which was sort of the point I was (poorly) trying to make - that it's a huge caveat, but otherwise a decent fallback if and when that changes. Google is adding an implementation into Messages, and it's honestly not a critical problem if OS vendors are supporting it at that level, but there's still too much we don't know about it imo. Will that be supported by iOS, if and when it supports RCS at all? Will it work for third-party clients, if and when Android gets APIs? I'm not sure how much optimism I have that this will be anything other than a fragmented mess in the short term.
    - toast0 6y ago
      The only thing getting RCS any real traction is Google seems to be pushing it in their SMS application, and is now running an RCS server for everyone (or something). Which basically means, instead of having a federated mess as designed to replace the federated mess of SMS and MMS, we'll get a Google mess, maybe. But if Google was any good at making messenger apps, maybe enough people would use one of them that it wouldn't be killed.
sneak 6y ago
Riot and almost all of the other clients I tried all phone home to some kind of metadata/identity or push server that is run by some private company I’ve never heard of (which isn’t part of Matrix/Riot). Check out its network traffic sometime.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  Riot only ever talks to identity servers (which simply maintain a directory of matrix users by phone number or email address) if you actually try to look up a user by one of those identifiers, and if you actually opt in to it. We used to do it without opt-in when you searched, but this was fixed at https://matrix.org/blog/2019/09/27/privacy-improvements-in-synapse-1-4-and-riot-1-4 https://matrix.org/blog/2019/09/27/privacy-improvements-in-s.... For Push, whatever app you use needs to have a push server that talks through to Apple/Google if you use their push. For Riot, that server is run by the New Vector (vector.im), the outfit which makes Riot. The network traffic should make this very clear.
  - sneak 6y ago
    It does not appear that your statement is accurate. I just fired up Riot 1.6.2, the latest available from the site. It makes three connections, one each to matrix.org, vector.im, and riot.im on startup. Even after removing application settings and preferences, it connects to all three of those on startup, just sitting at the login screen, not signed in to anything. I didn't opt in, and I didn't look anything up; it was automatic (and silent!) on a blank install. That's completely unacceptable, and counts as telemetry to three separate parties, whether intentional or not. The local app should not send any traffic whatsoever when launched and sitting at the login/signup screen. It should make a connection to the homeserver chosen to log in to, and that server alone. I just filed it as a bug again: https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/13942 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/13942
    - Arathorn 6y ago
      Okay - thanks for refiling and spelling it out; it's a legit thinko which we're fixing.

ChristianBundy 6y ago

> Meanwhile, yes, Matrix took years to add encryption, but it works much better than Signal, even with quite a few small bugs. I'm not sure which Matrix client you use, but clients like Riot don't even let you opt out of sending read receipts unless you edit `/etc/riot/config.json` to enable experiments and then go into the settings to disable read receipts. Problems like this (and issues like this [0]) give me the impression that Riot isn't designed for people who need privacy. (Yes, there are other Matrix clients [1], but my understanding is that Riot is the flagship interface.) [0]: https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/8961 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/8961 [1]: https://www.matrix.org/clients/ https://www.matrix.org/clients/

secfirstmd 6y ago
I'm a massive Matrix fan and have high hopes for it but in experiments we've done with activist and journalist partners we've found the Riot.im client often gets a bit complicated for people to use. I think the main issue people have is related to keys. As I techie I love the options but I find many don't like having all the options. Signal of course is a lot easier as it hides many of those issues in the UI/UX.
- techntoke 6y ago
  I just opened my Signal desktop app that I had synced previously. It asked me to resync again with my mobile device, which needs camera permissions to take a picture of a QR code. I had previously removed Signal from my mobile device. Low and behold, my account no longer existed and I had to sign back up with a phone number. I then clicked sync and most of my messages on my desktop are gone. I don't see how this is easy by any standard.
  - BlackNitrogen 6y ago
    If I understand your description, you reset your account. They delete the messages for safety when you reset. An attacker could reset by getting ahold of your phone number by sim jacking or the govt getting your text. It's a safety method so no one can take you texts. Of course many people want to carry their texts along, but this is a safety risk if you lost control over your number. So that's what signal is doing. If I recall when I had to reset my own number they did say they were deleting my old messages.
    - techntoke 6y ago
      No, I had removed the app from my mobile previously, not deleted my account. When I resynced, they had removed my account and the messages saved on my desktop disappeared.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - sadfklsjlkjwt 6y ago
        That is the same thing. The messages were stored on your phone never on any "account". The desktop was only ever a mirror of the phone. This is explicitly how Signal works. WhatsApp works the same way. If you did not delete the Signal directory on your phone then there should be some old backups with your messages there. These will be encrypted so you will need to original password to unencrypt them.
    - 6y ago

hr2016 6y ago

I do get the occasional missing messages in the desktop client but what I notice most is that it gets unstable and weird when there is a update available (which I don't get notified about). Desktop and laptop with Ubuntu btw, signal installed via snap if I recall correctly. Have you checked if yours is up to date?

StavrosK 6y ago
I have the PPA set up and it autoupdates, but I will double-check, thank you.
Well_hello 6y ago
are you on matrix.org? could have been the issue - but they should appear at a later moment, though
- hr2016 6y ago
  Signal with matrix.org? Not that I know of.

phyzome 6y ago

> I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. Oooooh, I've got some bad news for you.

StavrosK 6y ago
What is it? Riot works beautifully.
- Aachen 6y ago
  Beautifully mediocre, but yeah it mostly works. (Never been able to use Signal so I can't compare, but Riot's encryption was completely broken until a few weeks ago, and now there is only the occasional "hold on, gotta fetch keys for 10 seconds" and slow scrolling up, etc. It can't compete with something like Telegram in terms of UX; it is infinitely better for privacy but it doesn't "work beautifully".)
  - phyzome 6y ago
    It was a non-stop shitfest of buggy encryption and broken UX last I tried. A group of us tried using it for a bit and gave up because we kept losing messages, couldn't figure out which messages were "secure" in various ways, and had confusing horizon effects where only some people could see some messages. That was a couple months ago. Maybe it has improved massively since then? I guess I'll try it again later this year.
    - Aachen 6y ago
      Definitely improved somewhere last month. Not bug-free by a long shot, but while I also gave up on it after trying it in February, I'm now using it in favor of Keybase that got bought by some shitcorp.
    - Well_hello 6y ago
      No idea what problems you have, but I have been using encryption heavily since it got enabled by default. And I have never had any issue with it - even the transfer of encryption keys in the background to verified 3rd party clients worked like a charm. But, also this experience may not have been possible before may (when they released a big update with e2ee by default).

rubatuga 6y ago

On macOS the desktop client is fine so far.

fish45 6y ago

The desktop was pretty terrible for me (on Linux) for until a few months ago, but now it works perfectly. The only thing missing is sms from the desktop but from what I understand Signal won't ever add that because sms isn't secure

StavrosK 6y ago
I really hope this improves, I had to reset my laptop's Signal Desktop just last week because all the messages were "couldn't decrypt" and I was missing messages on my desktop just today.
_emacsomancer_ 6y ago
there's still no call/video from the desktop, no?
- solstice 6y ago
  There is an option in settings to enable camera and microphone, no? Have you tried that?
  - _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
    I have those enabled, but I don't see a way to make a voice or video call from the desktop. Maybe I'm missing something?
- pthatcherg 6y ago
  I work on calling for Signal, and the last few months we have been working on desktop calling. It's nearly ready and will hopefully be in public beta in a matter of weeks, and (again, hopefully) fully available in a few months.
  - _emacsomancer_ 6y ago
    This is excellent news. (Desktop calling would include video calls, right?)

Krasnol 6y ago

Mabe they just don't have the problems? I never had a single one of those you listed here.

StavrosK 6y ago
Maybe, but I have them every single time I use Desktop, so I'm puzzled that you don't.
- Krasnol 6y ago
  It's not just me. My SO, her mother and my parents doesn't either.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    This is semi-unrelated, but indicative: I posted a bug about photos taken in landscape showing up as portrait (ie sideways) if the screen is locked, and it was closed as "we'd like to have this fixed at some point". How is rotating photos properly not a priority for a messaging app? It's really annoying to have half your photos rotated sideways, and it screams "buggy app" to both participants of the conversation.
    - Krasnol 6y ago
      I would understand the urgency if this issue would occur in the app when you open it normally but the lock screen? Really? At this point I'd say you desperately look for something to complain about. Why don't you just not use it and check your PC? There is obviously something wrong with it.
      - StavrosK 6y ago
        I'm not talking about the lock screen, I'm talking about screen lock, and I'm talking about the mobile, not the desktop. How would you even take a photo in landscape using the desktop?

rachelbythebay 6y ago

But they have stickers! Who needs good sync when you have stickers! Oh, and arbitrary emoji reactions! Seriously... I do not understand how they keep investing in this gold-plating when the plumbing keeps getting clogged up.

StavrosK 6y ago
Stickers are important for people like my sister and wife, who are put off if the messaging app doesn't support them. I wouldn't knock their importance, but yes, good syncing should come first. EDIT: Those are two different people.
- kasey_junk 6y ago
  Excellent edit is excellent
kalenpw 6y ago
Signal doesn't have arbitrary emoji reactions, that is one feature I do wish it had. Though obviously I'd prefer a better desktop client first.
- smichel17 6y ago
  They're coming, currently in beta (source: am using the beta, it's public, check the play store page)
- aibara 6y ago
  You can now select any emoji for a reaction in the version that was just released (at least on Android).
Krasnol 6y ago
Before they had stickers, people were complaining that it doesn't have stickers. Can't please 'em all.
gingerlime 6y ago
anecdote time: My 6 year old son just discovered the augmented-reality tricks in the LINE app (adding a mustache, hair, glasses, sound effects etc). He got my mother (68) to install it and now they use it pretty much for all their video conversations. This replaced FaceTime, despite FaceTime having better sound and picture quality (edit: and even some effects). He's in the age (and COVID-19 environment) where he starts speaking to cousins and friends online. So I imagine LINE spreading pretty quickly in similar circles based on those features alone. That's the stuff that drives adoption, as silly as it might be. That said, yes, the plumbing needs to be in working order, or no silly feature can cover over the leaks (or smell, if we're going with the metaphor).

ComputerGuru 6y ago

I knew Signal was against federation but I hadn’t realized they had pretty much banned third party clients. That would otherwise have been a really easy win for people that actually care about the system integration, performance, and architecture of desktop clients enough to shun electron “clients.”

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
The Signal team has always been open about the reason why they reject third-party clients: they claim that XMPP adoption was hindered by the inability of a user’s software to know if the software on the other end supports the same feature set. XMPP had grown into a large set of features that some clients supported and others did not. If Signal introduces a new feature, it knows that all users’ devices will support that feature, because its own software is the only game in town.
- ComputerGuru 6y ago
  Backwards compatibility against a previous set of features isn't easy but it's certainly not impossible and graceful degradation is a thing.
  - walrus01 6y ago
    You can always define backwards compatibility that only goes to a certain lowest common denominator feature set, and no lower. For instance I have a number of httpd that support TLS1.2+ and specifically disallow SSLv3, TLS1.0 and TLS1.1. The population of browser user agents that don't understand TLS1.2 is infinitesimal at this point.
  - Paul-ish 6y ago
    It isn't clear if graceful degradation is possible in a security app.
    - ComputerGuru 6y ago
      Cases where a client is completely broken are never the problem: users will be forced to switch to a different client. It sucks, but it's no worse than the current state of affairs. A security-mandated change in protocol/behavior would fairly fall under that category.

godelski 6y ago

For what it's worth I don't have this problem on OSX, Ubuntu, or Manjaro. My roommate also uses Windows 10 and seems to be fine. During the past month I've seen more errors and hiccups. Like delays. I assume that's just a scaling issue. But I do have election apps. They just eat away resources.

kagenouta 6y ago

I, for one, have a bigger problem with it forcing the use of phone numbers as a sign-in method. They're an arbitrary identifier from a legacy system that there's not really a point in continuing to extend, because if your device is capable of anything more advanced than SMS it's also capable of... well, this. Also KaiOS and the like are making chat feasible even on feature phones. Don't get me wrong, RCS will be a fine enough fallback (once it's E2E), but standardized chat is the dream.

toast0 6y ago
> Don't get me wrong, RCS will be a fine enough fallback (once it's E2E), but standardized chat is the dream. Is there a plan for RCS to be E2E? Given that RCS went under the GSMA umbrella in 2008, and it's 2020 and adoption is minimal, I don't have any hopes for a future update that supports E2E to come out any time sooner than 2040, with handsets supporting it in 2050, and all endpoints supporting it in 2065; Google will have released about 30 more messangers by then, of course.
- pkulak 6y ago
  Google's working on it, apparently.
- kagenouta 6y ago
  Not within the spec. Which was sort of the point I was (poorly) trying to make - that it's a huge caveat, but otherwise a decent fallback if and when that changes. Google is adding an implementation into Messages, and it's honestly not a critical problem if OS vendors are supporting it at that level, but there's still too much we don't know about it imo. Will that be supported by iOS, if and when it supports RCS at all? Will it work for third-party clients, if and when Android gets APIs? I'm not sure how much optimism I have that this will be anything other than a fragmented mess in the short term.
  - toast0 6y ago
    The only thing getting RCS any real traction is Google seems to be pushing it in their SMS application, and is now running an RCS server for everyone (or something). Which basically means, instead of having a federated mess as designed to replace the federated mess of SMS and MMS, we'll get a Google mess, maybe. But if Google was any good at making messenger apps, maybe enough people would use one of them that it wouldn't be killed.

sneak 6y ago

Riot and almost all of the other clients I tried all phone home to some kind of metadata/identity or push server that is run by some private company I’ve never heard of (which isn’t part of Matrix/Riot). Check out its network traffic sometime.

Arathorn 6y ago
Riot only ever talks to identity servers (which simply maintain a directory of matrix users by phone number or email address) if you actually try to look up a user by one of those identifiers, and if you actually opt in to it. We used to do it without opt-in when you searched, but this was fixed at https://matrix.org/blog/2019/09/27/privacy-improvements-in-synapse-1-4-and-riot-1-4 https://matrix.org/blog/2019/09/27/privacy-improvements-in-s.... For Push, whatever app you use needs to have a push server that talks through to Apple/Google if you use their push. For Riot, that server is run by the New Vector (vector.im), the outfit which makes Riot. The network traffic should make this very clear.
- sneak 6y ago
  It does not appear that your statement is accurate. I just fired up Riot 1.6.2, the latest available from the site. It makes three connections, one each to matrix.org, vector.im, and riot.im on startup. Even after removing application settings and preferences, it connects to all three of those on startup, just sitting at the login screen, not signed in to anything. I didn't opt in, and I didn't look anything up; it was automatic (and silent!) on a blank install. That's completely unacceptable, and counts as telemetry to three separate parties, whether intentional or not. The local app should not send any traffic whatsoever when launched and sitting at the login/signup screen. It should make a connection to the homeserver chosen to log in to, and that server alone. I just filed it as a bug again: https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/13942 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/13942
  - Arathorn 6y ago
    Okay - thanks for refiling and spelling it out; it's a legit thinko which we're fixing.