22 ms·

Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

172 points by autocorr 6y ago

sk0g 6y ago
Is it just me or is it missing arrows entirely?
- lmilcin 6y ago
  Not all keyboard layouts use arrows. Long time ago keyboards did not have arrows. Nowadays, some keyboards use function key to switch some keys to their alternative function, including arrows. This is true especially with 40% keyboards where there is just no real estate for arrows and to some extent with 60% keyboards.
  - earthboundkid 6y ago
    Vi was made for a keyboard without arrows, which is why it has hjkl instead.
    - jaak 6y ago
      Actually, vi was made for a keyboard with arrow keys - the arrow keys were non-dedicated and used the HJKL keys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys
  - sk0g 6y ago
    I'm aware, I've owned a few 60% keyboards. As a non-vim developer, it's not fun for programming, to say the least, though I do get to practice some hand contortions.
- klodolph 6y ago
  This isn’t a physical keyboard. The layout is just a mapping in software. The arrows are unchanged, so they’re not included in the diagram. Whether they actually appear on your keyboard is a separate question.
  - sk0g 6y ago
    Ah, I thought this was a hip new 60% keyboard layout!
unwoundmouse 6y ago
This is dope, I love how the author took a rigorous approach towards analyzing how much effort could be saved through this keyboard
- lmilcin 6y ago
  Well, you are going to spend all the saved effort in ensuring you have the layout working everywhere. I am contractor, most of the time working on corporate PC. I use dvorak and it is already a huge PITA to explain to yet another corporate drone I need to be able to set up my own keyboard layout. Windows does not have Dvorak layout with polish accents so I have to either use my own driver or, more likely, write without polish accents. Another problem is that Windows can have different keyboard layout when logging in and different when unlocking the machine which might cause additional login failures. Some applications try to be smart (which rarely works) and control keyboard layout. At one bank the remote desktop app would switch keyboard layout periodically (like every 5 minutes) depending on my locale settings. So this is with Dvorak, which is popular enough. Try with a completely unknown layout and you are pretty much screwed if you ever need to be able to use computer that is not your own.
  - smabie 6y ago
    I can just type both Dvorak or Qwerty, it hasn't been much of a problem switching between the two. But in general, I use a keyboard that has an embedded layout, so I just bring my keyboard with me and all my bindings, macros, etc are with me. Very nice!
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    This is why I just bring my keyboard everywhere. I get everything I want without inconveniencing anyone else. I've considered building something extremely small like a Planck just for the extra portability.
    - lmilcin 6y ago
      I am currently building a keyboard from scratch. Will have matrix (ortholinear) layout and will be running my completely custom controller software so that I can play with the mappings and functionality to my heart's desire. In particular I was thinking about putting sd card slot where I could put steno dictionary and have steno built in the keyboard. Mainly because I typically work on some high sec corporate computers where I am unable to install any custom software.
zck 6y ago
> Typing ‘HE’ (in Colemak) forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways twisting motion from the wrist and then back again. Perhaps I have larger hands than the average, but I don't experience this. I can even type DE with the index and middle finger of my right hand. Anyone have video of how this is uncomfortable? I'm having trouble imagining it.
- SamBam 6y ago
  I was stuck on that as well. For reference, this is typing the combination HK on a Qwerty keyboard. I shift my index finger over for the H, and then use my middle finger for the K. Watching my wrists, they don't move at all. I thought the rest of the article and the approach very interesting and rigorous, though, although I thought the text-only effort results of all the different books impossible to grok as text, and would have appreciated a simple chart.
archseer 6y ago
I'm using a similar layout (Norman) that was derived from the Workman analysis. https://normanlayout.info/about.html https://normanlayout.info/about.html It was a bit easier to learn because most of the keys are on the same finger as on qwerty, but with the rows swapped. For me the biggest problem with using an alternate layout is that the hjkl vim movement keys are scattered.
- a-p-o 6y ago
  I consider my .vimrc-fu as only beginner, but can't you remap the keys so NIOH act as HJKL?
  - Legogris 6y ago
    Which becomes pretty annoying if you regularly work over remote SSH sessions to large number of hosts where you may not be the only person on a given user. (You could have some local shorthand to copy over your vimrc and explicitly start vim with a different copy, at which point you'll only have problems with shared tmux/screen sessions)
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    You pretty quickly run into dependency hell. You still want i mapped somewhere. Do you put that on qwerty-i/norman-r? Now where do you put r? qwerty-r/norman-f? Where do you put f? qwerty-f/norman-t? It's a mess. It would be much better if commands weren't so tightly associated with keys in vim.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  I tried a few different layouts and decided norman is my second favorite. Workman was slightly more difficult to learn, but that isn't really significant to me. I've been typing with workman for a few years now, and am very happy with it.
jimmar 6y ago
I'd love to see a rigorous analysis of whether this type of keyboard layout really reduces repetitive stress injuries. The metrics presented are interesting, but the reduced finger movement could be a bug rather than a feature. Small micro-stretching by having to reach for keys could actually be beneficial.
- shawxe 6y ago
  I think this is a very good and very underrated point. I'd like to see some evidence why there's any reason to assume repetitive movement with less stretching is somehow less harmful than repetitive movement with more stretching. I've been typing on the qwerty layout for about twenty-five years at this point, and I'm up to around 110WPM, so it would really take a gigantic amount of evidence for me to be bothered with trying to rewrite all of that muscle memory. There seems to be a tacit assumption that these alternate layouts improve something that qwerty is doing wrong, but as it stands I'm not convinced that premise has any merit. Still an interesting article, none the less.
- jacobsenscott 6y ago
  It would be very difficult to get enough people to switch layouts to do any kind of study. But you can probably look to gaming, where they optimize the layouts of the keys/gamepads and there's plenty of RSI. I think changing keyboard layout is unlikely to have any benefit. Especially since you need to spend an extra hour or two a day on typing drills to become productive. That must offset any benefit.
  - toyg 6y ago
    Depends on your definition of “benefit”. You can drop regular practice after a while, so the penalty on speed and accuracy is effectively capped; while the benefit on wrist health is not, because it will stay with you for life. Imho a month or so of lower productivity is worth the long-term effects.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  That would be interesting. That being said, RSI isn't there only reason to use an alternate layout. I've been using workman for a few years now, for comfort. I find it much more comfortable to use.
thought_alarm 6y ago
First you have to get rid of the absurd Euro/ISO keyboard layout. http://i.stack.imgur.com/j4xYE.jpg http://i.stack.imgur.com/j4xYE.jpg Only then can we talk about moving the vowel keys.
klodolph 6y ago
An oversight in the layout, in my mind—the human hand is better at typing in certain directions… the hands very naturally roll towards the center, but it is less natural to rotate away from the center. This is… somewhat covered in the article under SHU… > It is much more efficient to ride the momentum of a single arm or wrist stroke and type a combo rather than just one key. Try ASDF versus FDSA on a QWERTY layout. ASDF feels much more natural, doesn't it? So, I’m concerned about the sequences like TH in the Workman layout. It looks like Workman is optimized more for minimum distance, and less for other factors. I think this is what happens when you optimize for the metrics that are easiest to measure! The thing about Dvorak is not just which keys press the fingers, but how you alternate. So if you write THE on Dvorak, your right hand naturally rolls TH using strong fingers, and then you type E using the left. On Workman, you are rolling away from center, which is less natural. Some clumsier words in Dvorak: SPHINX. PIX are all left 2nd digit, but they alternate with the right hand, to give the 2nd digit on the left time to move. I may be biased. I switched to Dvorak in high school and it fixed my RSI. Dvorak is also available everywhere. I can sit down at an unfamiliar computer and change it to Dvorak within a minute. The alternation, to me, means that my fingers have more time to move and can move more slowly and gently at the same typing speed. As a technical note—you should not be changing capslock in your layout like this on Linux. The option to choose a keyboard layout like US QWERTY or US Dvorak is a separate choice from the choice to map capslock to something else, and they shouldn't be combined. I’m also a bit surprised that the bottom row is ZXMCV. This is so close to ZXCV… why not just use ZXCV?
- trashcan 6y ago
  > Try ASDF versus FDSA on a QWERTY layout. ASDF feels much more natural, doesn't it? It doesn't for me. Is it significantly more difficult/awkward? Maybe I'm used to it from playing scales on piano?
  - kqr 6y ago
    That could be it. I'm also a piano player and I think inward finger rolls are overestimated on computer keyboards. Dvorak also favours hand alternation, which I find appeals to me more. Unfortunately, Dvorak is not well suited to my native tongue (due to differences in letter frequencies) so I ended up learning Colemak instead, which also heavily emphasises inward finger rolls.
thanhhaimai 6y ago
For people looking to try a new layout, I recommend a Carpalx optimized layout. They have very detailed analysis on the layout: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization I've been using it on my Kinesis for a while, and it's totally worth it: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/kinesis/keymaps/carpalx/readme.md https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ki...
- clarry 6y ago
  > and it's totally worth it How would you characterise it? Speed, comfort, typo rate, something else? What layout(s) did you touch type on before carpalx? I might be interested in switching (after 15 years of increasingly customized dvorak).
  - daffy 6y ago
    I've been using qgmlwb for 4 years or so. It's difficult to compare with qwerty, since I didn't type properly before, but it feels pretty comfortable and effortless. I feel like my right hand is overused, but I doubt it has anything to do with the layout, I just don't like using my right pinky; or, rather, it doesn't like to be used.
- V-2 6y ago
  I'm long aware of this website. Fascinating stuff. I wonder how this Workman Layout would fare, evaluted by their algorithm?
  - daffy 6y ago
    There is an analysis of Workman here: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives
    - V-2 6y ago
      Indeed, thanks!
smabie 6y ago
> Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you’ll see what I mean. Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you’ll see what I mean Why is he shifting with his right hand instead of his left? It seems obvious, but maybe isn't: you should shift/ctrl with the opposite hand that is going to type the letter.
- nuclear_eclipse 6y ago
  On Colemak, the T is on the left hand, so the right hand would be moving to the right to press shift, then moving to the left to press the H, the moving right again for E.
- taneq 6y ago
  This is going back into the dark ages (we were taught on electric typewriters!) but when I did a typing course I was told only ever to use my left pinky for shift and right thumb for space.
  - smabie 6y ago
    Is there a rationale behind that?
    - taneq 6y ago
      Not one that I'm aware of, and a quick check of modern online typing resources doesn't share the same bias. I guess it was either the teacher's preference or something she was taught in typewriter school.
      - toyg 6y ago
        I think “in the dark ages” it was more common to end up using keyboards with only one Shift key - think “nuclear reactor control panel” and stuff like that. So it probably made sense to bend touchtyping theory for practical purposes when preparing kids.
- birdemic 6y ago
shirro 6y ago
A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I would just dictate it rather than try and optimize the alpha layout. I have been tempted to get a large ortho (lots of modifiers suck) and setup a split qwerty with a heap of symbols in the center columns between them. I type '"[]{}().=<> all day so I don't get why they should be marginalized. It is like expecting an accountant to use the 1-0 row instead of a numpad.
- leotaku 6y ago
  My country uses the QWERTZ layout which has dedicated keys for German umlauts. I mostly type in English however, so I've bound "([{" to "öäü". I now type umlauts using "AltGr+oau". It's definitely not a perfect solution, but it has worked well for me so far.
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    AZERTY (French) here with numbers accessed through shift and brackets through AltGR. This is a horrendous layout. Bonus points for it being slightly different on Mac and PC. I have absolutely no idea how people can use this layout for programming without going crazy. I don't program full time, I mostly do sysadmin work, and even if I don't think that typing speed is a limiting factor for how much code I can write, I do find it extremely annoying to type certain characters which are used quite often. Regarding language I type equally English and French so I absolutely love the Mac OS international layout: QWERTY so everything is where you expect it but with ALT I can get pretty much every French character I want, easily. This could probably work for German, too: ALT U + U = Ü. ALT + S = ß. I'm not sure about other nordic languages, though. I love this so much that I configured my linux and windows pcs to use the same layout. Some characters take somewhat longer to type (three different key strokes for ù instead of one) but I guess that for someone not writing exclusively french prose the tradeoff is completely worth it.
lwb 6y ago
Looks very interesting, but re-learning how to type is so painful, not to mention devastating to my productivity at work, that I think I can only afford to do it once in a lifetime... I recently made the switch from QWERTY to Dvorak, during a 2 week period while I was in between jobs, and it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. Over a month later and I'm back up to a plodding 60 WPM (from a glorious 120 with QWERTY). Not to mention how shot my vim keybindings are! Maybe if I eventually switch again it will be less painful, but the experience has taught me that typing is almost 100% an exercise in muscle memory. Anyway, my point is, I wish I could be the kind of person that could type fluently in multiple keyboard layouts, if nothing else then just for the heck of it, but I'm not sure I'll ever have the kind of time to make that happen. Cool project though! There are certainly words and bigrams that are needlessly hard to type in Dvorak.
- dmix 6y ago
  I was curious about vim as well. I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY. This thread convinced me to try switching to Dvorak but I'm a bit scared after reading your comment. It's not clear from your comment, did you switch back to QWERTY or are you still giving it a shot?
  - clarry 6y ago
    I've used dvorak & vim for 15 years with mostly default vim bindings. I don't think there's any problem. (I also use emacs with evil)
  - cuddlybacon 6y ago
    > I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY. Only hjkl for movement. Everything else is fine. I still wouldn't make the switch again. You'd get more millage from spending the ~2 weeks doing a bunch of speed typing practice with qwerty.
    - fho 6y ago
      The problem is that most of the typing in vim is based on muscle memory ... thinking about it I have no idea what the keys I use for commenting out code. I tried to learn Dvorak and later Neo ... Not being able to use Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V like I was used to was annoying ... not being able to use vim anymore was the reason I stayed with QWERTY (QWERTZ in German).
pluto9 6y ago
I'm amazed that people are able to quickly "try out" new keyboard layouts. I'm not a particularly good typist as it is. I feel like a new layout would take months of infuriating practice and lost productivity to learn.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  Successfully "trying out" does not involve proficiency. I tried out several layouts before deciding I liked workman the most.
bentcorner 6y ago
Slightly OT, but I just now realized that I rarely actually use my pinky finger to type (particularly on the right). Left pinky: ctrl/shift (and sometimes but not always "a"), Right pinky: enter and "/". I usually shift my ring/middle finger around to compensate. If you asked me yesterday if I touch type "correctly" I would have said yes, but apparently I'm pretty sloppy with what fingers go where and my brain fills in the gaps without me realizing it.
Psychlist 6y ago
For people who write code rather than novels it would be really handy to see a corpus from github or somewhere.
edoo 6y ago
Or get a gyro ball and avoid the wrist problems altogether.
foolfoolz 6y ago
interesting this was explicitly designed for programming but the travel tests were for books. reproducing some open source program seems more relevant
camgunz 6y ago
I had some pain in my right pinky and it made me realize tons of programming symbols and Enter are over there. I’ve been strongly considering remapping them somehow, though after wrapping my pinky and ring finger together for a couple weeks I was fine.
- clarry 6y ago
  I have sticky modifiers on the top alpha row on middle fingers. So E+JK give me (), E+M, give me {}, E+UI give me [], E+H gives =. I+QWERTASDFGV give me numbers, I+U gives & and so on.. (actually I use a custom dvorak, but it's probably less confusing to explain this in terms of qwerty). Every symbol is bound this way. Shifts are also sticky so I don't need to tense up my hand so much for every capital letter. I'm still using too much pinkies for ctrl, but I think only a new keyboard will fix that (I need a proper thumb cluster, kinda like I had on my kinesis advantage).
  - camgunz 6y ago
    Yeah I've been considering something like that; I'm pretty concerned with training myself away from QWERTY, but if I had some additional custom binds that seems workable.
Okkef 6y ago
Learning a new layout takes months of training. If you want to improve ergonomics, I would take the following steps; 1. Get as split keyboard for better shoulder posture (ultimate hacking keyboard) 2. Get a column staggered board instead of row staggered for better finger movement and more thumb keys (ergodox or iris keyboard) 3. Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria) 4. A sculpted and tented keyboard which allows the arm to untwist and is shaped like a dish to move keys closer to your fingers like the kinesis, dactyl, or Tightyl. I got used to a kyria board in a week and it's helped hugely to improve my back pain. Never going back to a non split keyboard!
- risho 6y ago
  >Learning a new layout takes months of training. This is completely false. If you go cold turkey and actually work at it you can actually memorize a keyboard layout in a single afternoon, though you will be slow as hell. If you keep at it without switching back you can get up to like 30 wpm in a week. I did it with both colemak and beakl 15. The problem isn't that it takes months, the problem is that it is incredibly tedious and you have to really want to do it because you will hate your life for the first couple of days.
  - Okkef 6y ago
    I'm not saying it's impossible or that you shouldn't do it. I'm saying it's not the first thing you should improve. If you compare switching to colemak the other improvements I listed, it's by far the most effort. I am practicing colemak which mentally exhausts me a few times a week and I'm only up to 18 wpm. Picking up a split keyboard will take maybe an hour before you are back up to speed and you will gain the benefits instantly. When you're "back up to 30wpm after a week of training" you're still typing at crippled speeds. It takes a significant amount of effort to learn a new keyboard layout.
    - risho 6y ago
      I actually agreee. The conclusion I came to at the end of it was that learning a new keyboard layout was basically a waste of time for most people for a number of reasons. First of all there's no actual science that proves it's ergonomic efficacy and if it does actually accomplish anything it's negligible compared to other things you could do instead. On top of that it makes interfacing with other people's computers an absolute nightmare. It also has random bugs and quirks if you use software based implementations where it randomly won't work in vnc or a virtual machine or whatever. I actually did it just because I'm a technical masochist and it was fun, not because of some delusion of actually fixing anything. I wound up switching back to qwerty in the end. As for picking up a split keyboard being easy, that isn't necessarily the case depending on how messed up your typing is. You may need to relearn how to properly type to use them. That said I would agree that you would get MUCH more ergonomic benefits from switching to a split keyboard than you would from learning a new keyboard layout with a fraction of the work required. >When you're "back up to 30wpm after a week of training" you're still typing at crippled speeds. This definitely isn't true. You are actually just under the average typing speed. Also if you are doing stuff like programming or many other things your 70+ wmp typing isn't actually doing anything for you because your are already bottlenecked by thinking and other such things. Typing at 30wpm isn't nearly as bad as you think it is. Also you continue to improve from there.
Quequau 6y ago
As enraging as I find switching back and forth between English and German keyboards, I fear I just don't have the emotional fortitude for something like this.
stevev 6y ago
A few years ago I was stuck between workman, norman and colemak. I decided to go colemak for ease of transition. Being a longtime qwerty typer, my hands came to favor a more left hand typing ratio. I later realized colemak tends to be more right hand. My qwerty wpm rate went from avg 130 down to 80. My hands feel more comfortable typing colemak for long durations compared to qwerty. The placement of the letter H and E didn’t really bothered me. I’ve since picked up a modified version of colemak that fixes some of the short comings of colemak. Maybe one day I’ll pick up workman due to having a more even left/right hand distribution.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  I was in the same position, and picked workman. In the end, portability didn't matter, because I can just use my programmable keyboard everywhere.
asmosoinio 6y ago
This article is from (2010)
- risho 6y ago
  are keyboard layouts like a time sensitive matter? qwerty is from the 1800's and dvorak is from the 30's. By comparison this article came out yesterday.
  - gsich 6y ago
    Yet no mention of NEO in the article?
  - asmosoinio 6y ago
    Not really - but I thought this was something new when reading the article.
cryptos 6y ago
I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? The longer I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that you have to hammer the new layout into your head, since there are many situations, like the keyboard of a colleague, where the physical layout wouldn't match. But again: how to learn it efficiently without a lot of frustrating typing errors? The best would be some kind of official standard and the introduction of a new layout in schools.
- jeromenerf 6y ago
  My 2 cents: You can actually reshuffle keys on many notebooks keyboards. And / or use stickers on the left over keys. They don’t look great, but I prefer layout over look :) Using a blank keyboard was a good forcing device to get better at touch typing. I sanded out a spare thinkpad keyboard. Cheap, effective. You need to practice. It can be an enjoyable activity, like running or working out. Rewiring your habits is actually easier if you enjoy the process. It takes time though. I have no issue working with other layouts, may it be another person computer (which if rare) or a mobile device, which don’t support Dvorak ootb. Our brains are great.
- akdas 6y ago
  > do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? Yes. > how do you _learn_ the layout then? Using an image of the new layout, and by doing drills. If you care about touch typing, you're training to type without looking at the keyboard anyway. This is how I learned to touch type on Dvorak years ago. I had never learned to touch type on QWERTY before, and I still can't. But then again, I typically don't type on other people's computers and when I do, I look at the keys.
- shannongreen 6y ago
  I learnt Dvorak 6 years ago and now type exclusively in Dvorak on QWERTY keyboards (currently a Microsoft Ergonomic). I have never used a keyboard with a Dvorak printed key layout. I think my Dvorak typing speed is still slightly slower than my old QWERTY max, but it feels much more comfortable typing for long periods, and less effortful. The printed keys don't mean much - to learn to touch type correctly you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway. I used a few typing games to start and then switched cold turkey for a few activities that didn't require speed (like responding to emails). It was, indeed, very frustrating. That said, I don't recommend switching for most people, because you will get much worse at QWERTY and when you occasionally need to type it (like on a colleague's keyboard) you will appear incompetent; you will ruin your muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts; and, because standard Dvorak is not great for programming IMO due to the position of the [{ and }] keys. But now I'm in too deep, and I know from experience how hard it is to switch so I don't want to switch back!
jansan 6y ago
Only partly related, but if you are an aging programmer like me you should consider using a vertical mouse. They are a total eyesore, but switching from a normal mouse is almost seamless and they can dramatically reduce wrist strain.
trisiak 6y ago
I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special keys (shift, ctrl, backspace, enter) and that's not something colemak, dvorak or their friends seem to be addressing. I see analogy to guitar playing here. No matter how well you figure out finger positioning for a complex passage, you won't be playing with ease unless your elbow, wrist and spine are also positioned properly.
- Okkef 6y ago
  This is so true! There are so many quick wins to improve posture before the high-effort micro optimization of changing layouts: - split the keyboard for better shoulder posture (eg ultimate hacking keyboard but don't stop here) - Get a column staggered board with more thumb keys instead of row staggered for better finger movement (ergodox or iris keyboard) - Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria) - A sculpted and tented keyboard allows the arm to untwist. These keyboards are dish shaped which moves keys closer to your fingers. Examples are the kinesis, dactyl, or Tightyl (my own creation). I think the sweet spot for most people is the column staggered split layout.
  - alpaca128 6y ago
    100% this. I'm using an ergonomic keyboard with the two halves of the keys at a slight angle and column-staggered design, and I can't imagine ever going back to a normal keyboard. Being able to enter every symbol without even moving the wrists is just too comfortable. It's more expensive than any standard keyboard and I had to solder it myself, but it's basically customised for my fingers. I'm not typing faster, but I have much more fun doing it and fewer issues with my shoulders. I would say it's a much more important upgrade than changing away from QWERTY(which actually isn't that bad, there are a few false myths floating around about it).
  - 6y ago
stormdennis 6y ago
I used hunt and peck for years before learning to touch type. After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong of two successive letters. I'm a lot better than hunt and peck but I'm kind of disappointed. Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc
- rgoulter 6y ago
  > Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Yes, it will take a significant amount of effort to change over to Dvorak layout. You're unlikely to see speed improvements with Dvorak without continuous effort. However, IMO, Dvorak feels a lot nicer to type with than qwerty. IME: I learned Dvorak around 5 years ago, but switched back to qwerty. A few weeks ago, decided to use Dvorak again. There's a "like riding a bike" quality to it; although I'd recommend against using different layouts with the same physical keyboard. > is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc IMO no. (They're infrequently used in either qwerty or dvorak, which makes sense to me. I don't notice one as better/worse than the other).
- alpaca128 6y ago
  In my experience it pays off to do a bit of typing practice every day for a few weeks. It noticably made me a bit faster and more accurate and it wasn't even remotely as hard and time-consuming as switching the layout. I think learning Dvorak etc. doesn't pay off at all and qwerty actually isn't as bad as people say(the real problems of mainstream keyboards are present in Dvorak etc. as well). Most people just don't consciously practice it regularly.
- clarry 6y ago
  > Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Don't expect improvements in speed. For me it's all about comfort. What's a major job for you? You can memorize the layout in a day, type painfully slow for a couple days, start to feel rather comfortable in a week or two tops (still likely slower, depending on how fast you were, but now you're accustomed to the pace you type at on your new layout). Getting to the 80-100 WPM range takes weeks. This, of course, assumes that you put in the effort (do drills and memorize the layout first of all; keep doing drills daily, and don't switch back to your old layout when it feels convenient).
jarnagin 6y ago
One thing that often goes unmentioned when I see discussions about these sorts of alternate layouts is that, particularly for programmers, the keyboard isn’t just a simple device for entering text, it’s the mechanism through which we interact with our computing environment, and most tooling is either specifically or unintentionally designed to enhance the productivity of people typing in QWERTY. Whether it’s simple copy and paste, vim keybindings, shell commands, etc., using these sorts of tools from other layouts often feels much more tedious than it does in QWERTY. So I’d caution against adopting a new layout naively, unless you’re also willing to accept that you may have to also begin adapting your environment to your new layout in addition to learning the new board.
- unkulunkulu 6y ago
  Yes, there is some idiosyncrasy with hotkeys, vim is quite ok (Dvorak user here). Overall I remember it being crazy for some time but currently I’m quite happy with the results in entering text and programming. For hotkeys I still have to make guesses here and there because some programs expect them to be pressed “as in qwerty”, others “as in dvorak”.
- toyg 6y ago
  To be honest I never have any problem with that sort of thing with Colemak in terminals. The only issue I have is in games, where WASM is a religion.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    As much as I hate rebinding WASD in every game ever (and no two games share anything like a similar remap tool; every game's settings are a unique snowflake), it does at least amuse me every time that Colemak's replacement is WARS. It seems more appropriate for games, it spells out a vaguely appropriate word and R for Reverse actually makes sense mnemonically. (Walk, Around, Reverse, Sideways ;) Though nearly universal support of Xbox gamepads and made me more of a gamepad by default player, saving WASD remapping for rare cases.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
waynesonfire 6y ago
been using dvorak for 15 years and i'd do it again in a heartbeat. so smooth.
bonestamp2 6y ago
I use a modified Pok3r layout and dumping the caps-lock in favor of another modifier is one of the best keyboard hacks.
gerhardhaering 6y ago
I use the Neo layout since 2013. In my optinion, it is optimized for the German language and for programming. I really love it. On Linux this worked perfectly for me, but on Macs there are some (Electron?) applications which have their own idea of keybindings. Notably MS Teams. They have their own idea of keybindings and assume some kind of quertz layout. Which using neo makes typing a questionmark, which works using "layer 3 key" (caps lock) and what is "h" on querty impossible. So I end up mostly just typing :question in chat, which produces a questionmark emoticon. Talk about workarounds. Oh yeah, it does not work because Teams opens the "help" window instead.
resu_nimda 6y ago
Keyboard layouts are incredibly fascinating. For the amount of typing that is done today it feels like we are collectively still in the Dark Ages of textual input. A while ago on HN there was link to a talk from a stenographer (the people who do court reporting and other live transcription). They achieve the highest WPM by using a smaller keyboard and pressing "chords" of multiple keys at the same time, which map to sounds or words. Over time each individual customizes their "dictionary" to meet their usage/needs. From there it's easy to imagine a future where children are given devices that fit their hands like gloves or wii-motes that convert motions to text, with a system that adapts and grows with them over time.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  I never worked with dvorak or bepo but I felt qwerty or azerty are enough.. it's a bit like a guitar, things are not optimal, painful at times but you can do wonders anyway with some training.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  One argument goes: Stenographers need to optimise for input speed, almost everyone else doesn’t have that requirement. Another argument goes: we don’t know what creativity might be enabled if everyone had that option / ability. I’ve always thought fingertip and finger joint implants would make good contacts for chord-like input. Ideas are cheap though.
  - resu_nimda 6y ago
    Stenographers need to optimise for input speed, almost everyone else doesn’t have that requirement. Right, max WPM isn't necessarily everything (though it's a pretty good proxy for overall effectiveness of the tool), what's more interesting is the way the device can adapt to the user. The programmers complaining about the symbol keys could create mappings that make those easier/more natural (combined with a device with a more ergonomic form factor). Technically you can kind of do this with a regular keyboard via macros/expansions/remapping but it would work a lot better if the with a device that was designed with that in mind.
  - 6y ago
thenoblesunfish 6y ago
DON'T DO IT* I absolutely love Workman. It's gorgeous. I spent months learning it, getting fast with it. I even got the supercool matrix style keyboard, I was so into it. But now I use QWERTY, and I sold my matrix style keyboard. Why? 1. Using the standard is useful. Other people's computers use QWERTY. Terminals for typing things in airports use QWERTY. When you have to do first aid stuff on your system, you're not going to get to change the layout. 2. QWERTY actually isn't bad. Yes, the home row is largely wasted, but other than that, it's not as ludicrous as you've been reading. For evidence, look up who the fastest typists in the world are - plenty of them use QWERTY. * if you think it's going to make you more efficient. If it's for fun, go for it. For me, it was worthwhile, because I got to forget QWERTY and re-learn with proper touch typing, not whatever 3-finger nonsense I was doing before.
- clarry 6y ago
  DO IT! Don't use other people's toothbrushes. Don't fly; even if you sometimes do, don't base your life choices around airport terminals or ATMs. Do your computer first aid with a keyboard that has your layout built in so there's no need to change it. Qwerty is actually bad.
- cuddlybacon 6y ago
  +1 I'm a dvorak user who wouldn't do it again if I had the chance.
- noaccoun 6y ago
  It's not about being faster, but to not suffer from RSI. QWERTY forces your hands to stay in abnormal position which can cause wrist pain. Ergonomic layouts (and column-staggered or ortholinear keyboards) are designed with that in mind.
  - hrktb 6y ago
    Couldn't the hand positioning be mostly solved by remapping the few keys that pain you the most ? For me it was the control key and escape keys, and the others keys are otherwise standard. Also I'd argue people suffering from RSI shouldn't be striving for speed or efficiency that much. Some people switch their mouse hand or reverse buttons basically to detune, or split the load to other parts of their body, speed/efficiency be damned.
MrOxiMoron 6y ago
I don't use my computer for writing epic novels, I'm using it to play games (key placement doesn't matter) and programming. So how much easier/difference is there for programming in different languages? I know for a fact that PHP made the choice for the namespace separator based on availability on certain keyboard layouts.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  Hopefully you are writing comments and documentation. You just wrote a whole paragraph on HN. In my experience, there is a huge increase in comfort to be had.
bbx 6y ago
I think typing efficiently on a keyboard is akin to playing the piano with good technique. I often see musicians playing piano (or keyboard synths) with improprer technique. They move their wrist a lot, bend their finger backwards to apply pressure, and tense their fingers by laying them flat. This causes stress in the motion and fatigue over time. All (or most) the pressing power should come from the tip and the phalanges (?). You use each finger like its own little hammer. It requires a bit of training but not much really. You just need to strengthen those tiny muscles over time by consciously moving the finger only. Of course the rest of the hand can move a bit but it shouldn’t tense any muscle at all. The wrist should only hover around the piano/keyboard to move closer to the target keys. And the rest of the arm and shoulder should of course not move or tense at all. If you can play the piano like this, you can type on a keyboard the same way. No tension in the hand. Only a bit in the finger when it’s pressing, but none otherwise. As a result, you’ll likely prefer like me keyboards with very low travel. I have the Apple Mac keyboard which has a slight angle and very low travel. It’s very easy to “hammer” the keys with low effort. I’ve never had any wrist pain in 20 years of being both a musician and a developer.
- block_dagger 6y ago
  Piano player and programmer here. I largely agree, although I haven’t avoided injury in my 20 years, just learned to manage it.
- robotmay 6y ago
  Similar experience here, and in fact I use a floating typing style more akin to playing a piano instead of sitting on the home row. I actually did end up with bad RSI for a year, however, caused by typing on a laptop, but I now realise that was due to the extension of my arms. For a while I used Workman on an Ergodox keyboard, and it was very nice. But I learnt that I actually love QWERTY when I type in my floating style, and ultimately moved back to it and a Topre keyboard instead (which is a nice mid-point between non-mechanical and mechanical boards). I've just taken the piano back up after 18 years, and so far don't seem to be overly straining myself, so I'm hopefully on the right track with my technique. Years of playing diatonic accordion have hopefully used many of the same muscles!
xupybd 6y ago
I'd really love to see some serious work go into studying keyboard layouts to see if they actually make the differences claimed. Not that I'm sceptical more that I'd like to be able to quantify the difference they are worth. I'd love to try one out but not sure it's worth the time investment.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  There has been a lot of effort put into quantifying potential results. At the end of the day, workman is much more comfortable, and that makes me happy.
mmlkrx 6y ago
A few years ago I took the plunge and started learning Colemak after extensive typing left me with pain in my hands. I haven't had any typing related issues since so personally I can recommend learning an alternative keyboard layout (whether that be Workman, Dvorak, Colemak, or other). Using qwerty on other people's computers has never been an issue since I use my own machine most of the time. I do have to look at the keyboard when typing qwerty but it's quick enough so I don't really mind. If you're curious what it feels like to type Colemak, I wrote a small app a few years ago which simulates Colemak for someone on a qwerty keyboard: http://mmlkrx.github.io/colemak-typing-simulator/ http://mmlkrx.github.io/colemak-typing-simulator/
mcv 6y ago
Cool idea. "Database" is sadly still a primarily left-handed word, but I understand that's because the goal is not to change anything about querty that doesn't need to be changed. I think moving the 'e' to the right is a good idea.
explorigin 6y ago
I've been using Workman for 5 years now and it has been wonderful for reduced stress. The difference between QWERTY and workman has been so dramatic that I haven't needed to take any additional steps at managing forearm/wrist stress. People seem to pontificate about micro-optimizations but the fact is that you're reducing your overall motion of typing by more than half. An ergo keyboard is another way to do that but you still have awkward motions. Everyone has different sized hands. My fingers are a bit short for my average size. It works well for me.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  I've been using workman for a few years, and using a keyboardio model01 for about a year. Both have given a similar and drastic increase to the comfort of typing.
gillesjacobs 6y ago
I have done testing of my own on personalized keyboard lay-out by keylogging myself. My initial interest in keyboard layouts was piqued years ago with the CarpalX project [1], so I started keylogging myself in 2017. I am a researcher, programmer, sysadmin, and work in a multilingual environment (Python, English, Dutch, R, Java, French, Spanish), so I was expecting some interesting results. I put 3 years worth of keylogs into Patorjk's Keyboard Analyzer app [2] used by OP (after sanitizing passwords and personal identification). Here are my personal results: Programmer Colemak 59.06 Colemak 59.02 CarpalxQ 56.02 Workman 57.43 Workman for Programmers 57.16 Simplified Dvorak 54.71 Programmer Dvorak 53.96 personalized 53.53 QWERTY 46.61 AZERTY 44.83 I did build an Ergodox but never got around to learning it, so here are Ergodox scores: Colemak Thumbshift 63.12 Ergodox/Colemak/Cub 60.93 Ergodox Colemak v1 60.13 Ergodox/Workman/Cub 59.27 Ergodox Colemak v2 57.07 For me, Colemak variations seem to come on top over Workman and CarpalX in this test. Note that Patorjk's Keyboard Analyzer [2] does not have a ergonomic typing effort modeled in as much detail as the CarpalX model which takes into account full stroke path. It is very much possible that CarpalX will come out in front of Colemak using the more CarpalX model. Other interesting layouts can be found at the Keyboard-Design.com ranking [3] which uses [2] on different (programming) language inputs. For me personally, I will start learning Programmer Colemak on my regular keyboard and Colemak Thumbshift on my Ergodox. OP argues against Colemak based on added typing effort due to horizontal and diagonal stretching. If Workman is better in this regard, PatorJ's Keyboard Analyzer [2] as not as good a tool as CarpalX to reflect this advantage. CarpalX takes into account finger travel distance, hand/finger/row penalties and stroke path. PatorJ's tool does not model stroke path or allows for penalization of horizontal and diagonal movement. I would like to have seen an analysis using CarpalX as that could have strengthened your argument for Workman. Additionally, OP puts a lot of focus on the common monolingual English keystrokes (HE) which is not necessarily relevant for multilingual programmers. A personalized approach is necessary because most standard lay-outs are based on monolingual text datasets of books as is in the OP. Everyday typing of an IT-professional does not resemble natural language text in the slightest, so actual keylog input is required for any layout analysis IMHO. Overall, I very much appreciate the effort OP put into Workman, it looks great! It seems Workman is a serious contender for first place alongside Colemak and CarpalX. 1. http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx 2. http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer 3. https://www.keyboard-design.com/best-layouts-by-average-ranking.html https://www.keyboard-design.com/best-layouts-by-average-rank...
larme 6y ago
On normal keyboard layout you press so many keys with your pinky. I think it's ridiculous. I design my 40% keyboard (vortex core) layout[0] according to 3 principles: 1. do not assign pinky to any key need you press and hold (ctrl, shift, alt, etc.) 2. do not assign pinky to any key you press frequently 3. try to assign these keys to you thumb or bottom part of the palm (hypothenar?) So I assign space to the left palm, ctrl to the right palm, alt, cmd and shift to the left thumb, pn (modifier to enter numbers/symbols) to the right thumb. Enter is assigned to pn+n, esc is assigend to right pinky because I'm not a vim user. [0]: https://imgz.org/ih6XktnR/ https://imgz.org/ih6XktnR/
zetalemur 6y ago
Many years ago I too had pain in my wrists while doing lots of programming work. For me the game changer was using Vim and mapping ESC to jj in both the editor and the shell (via .inputrc). In fact I mostly use Vim because of the provided ergonomics, the fast editing capabilities are just the cherry on the cake. In my opinion the main culprit are modifier keys (e.g. by default the shell uses emacs bindings and you do a lot of ^A, ^E, ^R, etc.), but using jj mostly solves the issue as you just have to reach for Ctrl when you require SIGINT or copy/pasting in different environments that do not support vi keys. There are also people that remap it to Caps-Lock, but I just don't like to use my pinky that often. Of course, everybody is different, but it makes sense to think about a setup that suits you and your health.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  Modifier keys suck on traditional keyboards. Modifier keys are great when they are put under your thumbs.
  - zetalemur 6y ago
    It's true, I don't have any problem with using SPACE via left thumb, but I have never encountered a layout or keyboard that let's me use the thumb for modifier keys. Do you have an example?
    - thomastjeffery 6y ago
      I'm using a keyboardio Model 01 (https://shop.keyboard.io/ https://shop.keyboard.io/) right now. The thumb (and thumb knuckle) keys are my favorite design point, but the entire design is excellent. They are out of stock, but the designs are open source, and there are a lot of other great DIY designs around. The Ergodox has thumb clusters similar to the Kinesis Advantage. There is also the Dactyl, and many many more. If you want to go down this rabbit hole, reddit is a good place to start: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/
antigirl 6y ago
I agree modifier keys are the devil. Laptop keyboards are not designed for ergo at all. I use an ergodox ez and have various layers. Layer for directional keys. Layer for all my vscode shortcuts (you can do Marcos). Layer for symbols. Even a layer to control mouse, however I don’t like or use this I use thumb clusters for the most common modifiers like space, enter, backspace, command What’s great is that I can define alternative keys when the keys are pressed down. So I use them to activate various layers I also use auto shift feature so holding down a a key will get your the shifted option. Great for gets Caps version etc Here is what my layout looks like https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/RlxdW/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/RlxdW/la...
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Interesting. But perhaps similar to re-inventing spats to use plastic instead of celluloid - too little, too late. Perhaps more useful to work out making thumb-typing on a phone better.
deckiedan 6y ago
I've been using this for a few years now. I deliberately only used it on a kinesis advantage (and typematrix I tried out for a while - lack of ergonomically placed modifier keys killed me though...). I deliberately use QWERTY on laptops and so on, so my fingers retain some memory of that and let me switch back and forth easily. It took a while to get fast enough to be productive - it's a pain switching layouts. The nice thing about using a kinesis advantage is that as it re-maps the keys in the keyboard, the computer isn't aware of keyboard mapping at all. When I was trying out things like the typematrix or a MS keyboard that required drivers etc, it was always a pain getting things like BIOS passwords, login screens, etc. to work reliably.
mozey 6y ago
Instead of using an alternate keyboard layout, I found the alternative finger positioning described here works great for me: https://typingsoft.com/typing.htm https://typingsoft.com/typing.htm The trick is to keep you wrists straight
- SeriousM 6y ago
  Since I (was) a gamer my left hand rests on WASD. It's just a natural position for me :)
linsomniac 6y ago
Here's a good PyCon presentation from someone who switched to voice input for programming. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-dB6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-dB6g I hadn't thought about it until this thread, but one of the biggest barriers for me using it was that we have a really quiet open office, but now that we are WFH...
new_realist 6y ago
I use BEAKL v15.
neves 6y ago
Very nice work, I'd like to see the result not with books, but with programming languages. The problem is but you loose a very valuable thing: the ability to use any keyboard. You won't be able to pair program. You'll be very slow when using your mother's computer. The ability to use any keyboard is more valuable than increasing your WPS.
- snazz 6y ago
  Some people are able to use two keyboard layouts fairly well so long as they practice both. Having and using a traditional keyboard layout on a laptop in addition to your heavily-customized desktop setup is a good way to do both.
- dljsjr 6y ago
  Typically alternative keyboard layouts are installed as a mapping at the operating system level, I don't think the author is proposing a keyboard with that hardware layout. And most modern OS's allow for switching key maps on the fly with little effort. I worked in a lab with a guy who typed exclusively in Dvorak and there was no issue with pair programming along side him nor for him to get his key map on shared workstations.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  Some people have managed to keep their qwerty muscle memory. I haven't. To me, it's absolutely worth it. If I'm going somewhere that I might use someone else's system for more than a few minutes, I bring my keyboard.
iimblack 6y ago
I'm going on paternity leave soon and hoping to use the opportunity to learn a new keyboard layout but I'm having a tough time picking which one to learn. I've already got an ergonomic keyboard (Iris) but I still hate the feeling of querty's layout. I run into so many words that just feel bad to type. I think I've narrowed it down to two options (but I'm open to suggestions): Colemak mod-DH and Dvorak. They both take pretty different approaches that both seem to have merit. I like the ubiquity of Dvorak but I don't really predict it'll be difficult for me to get Colemak on any computer I use. Dvorak seems great but the placement of L and S seem very awkward to me. Colemak mod-DH seems to make more sense but I'm skeptical of the promise of finger rolls.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  When I was at this stage, I tried dvorak, colemak, workman, and norman. I got sick of typing ls -l with my pinky, so I decided against Dvorak. I really liked the feel of digraphs in workman and norman. In the end, I decided I didn't like the h placement in Norman. After typing with workman for a few years, I'm very glad I learned. Every time I type, I am reminded how much more comfortable it is. I would recommend you look at what's available, and choose whatever one you like best. If you are on the fence about two or three, just start learning all of them, and drop the ones you don't like.
neves 6y ago
My favorite keyboard improvement is Ten Key Less (TKL), and buying a separated numpad. Your hand will be nearer the mouse. Less movement is more comfortable.
nwah1 6y ago
Agree with Workman's criticism of Colemak, that the letters D and H are placed sub-optimally. I find moving O to reduce the use of the right pinky to be pointless, and self-contradictory since A is not moved, and remains under the left pinky. I also find the movement of C and V to be a non-starter for me. It looks like the Norman layout tries to address the DH issue of Colemak without messing up common shortcuts. Although the DH issue is not enough for me to abandon Colemak. Probably because I have large-ish hands and thus don't make any wrist movement when typing HE, as the Workman author does. Although, for those still on QWERTY, switching layouts in general is just not worth it. Remap capslock to a backspace and be done with it. And maybe get an ergonomic keyboard that doesn't mess too much with the placement of modifier keys.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  After years of using qwerty, I've gotten used to having 'a' on left pinky. Switching to workman has been absolutely worth it to me.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  DH was an intentional compromise that Colemak took to increase QWERTY compatibility and Colemak documentation has always acknowledged that, so I respect it isn't perfect, given trade-offs, but as Workman acknowledges changing DH has a knock-on of changing a lot of things that I like about Colemak. I think Colemak also better optimized some trigraphs over Workman's digraph focus. That said, the difference between Workman/Norman/Colemak/Dvoarak is all rather "slight" compared to the respective distance between Qwerty and any of them, so some of these distinctions truly are "micro-optimizations". Most people would do better to learn any of them than keep with QWERTY whether or not they can tell which one micro-optimized better.
xedrac 6y ago
I used Workman for a year back in 2013. I even submitted it for inclusion into the Xorg project (perhaps a little prematurely). https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56998 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56998 Overall the layout felt great and relieved a lot of pain. I have two issues with it. The first one is that vim keybindings are terrible. This could easily be fixed by remapping keys in vim. The second issue is typing PO and OP sequences. This wasn't really noticeable until I hit around 60-70 wpm, then it stuck out like a sore thumb. If you don't typically type faster than that, this probably isn't an issue. I have also typed Colemak and Dvorak (current layout) at a high level. Colemak was the the most painful for me as my index fingers just felt overloaded all the time. Dvorak was also a little painful on the right pinky until it got stronger. Dvorak was also the hardest of the three layouts to get used to. All three are way better than Qwerty when it comes to typing comfort.

172 points by autocorr 6y ago

sk0g 6y ago

Is it just me or is it missing arrows entirely?

lmilcin 6y ago
Not all keyboard layouts use arrows. Long time ago keyboards did not have arrows. Nowadays, some keyboards use function key to switch some keys to their alternative function, including arrows. This is true especially with 40% keyboards where there is just no real estate for arrows and to some extent with 60% keyboards.
- earthboundkid 6y ago
  Vi was made for a keyboard without arrows, which is why it has hjkl instead.
  - jaak 6y ago
    Actually, vi was made for a keyboard with arrow keys - the arrow keys were non-dedicated and used the HJKL keys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys
- sk0g 6y ago
  I'm aware, I've owned a few 60% keyboards. As a non-vim developer, it's not fun for programming, to say the least, though I do get to practice some hand contortions.
klodolph 6y ago
This isn’t a physical keyboard. The layout is just a mapping in software. The arrows are unchanged, so they’re not included in the diagram. Whether they actually appear on your keyboard is a separate question.
- sk0g 6y ago
  Ah, I thought this was a hip new 60% keyboard layout!

unwoundmouse 6y ago

This is dope, I love how the author took a rigorous approach towards analyzing how much effort could be saved through this keyboard

lmilcin 6y ago
Well, you are going to spend all the saved effort in ensuring you have the layout working everywhere. I am contractor, most of the time working on corporate PC. I use dvorak and it is already a huge PITA to explain to yet another corporate drone I need to be able to set up my own keyboard layout. Windows does not have Dvorak layout with polish accents so I have to either use my own driver or, more likely, write without polish accents. Another problem is that Windows can have different keyboard layout when logging in and different when unlocking the machine which might cause additional login failures. Some applications try to be smart (which rarely works) and control keyboard layout. At one bank the remote desktop app would switch keyboard layout periodically (like every 5 minutes) depending on my locale settings. So this is with Dvorak, which is popular enough. Try with a completely unknown layout and you are pretty much screwed if you ever need to be able to use computer that is not your own.
- smabie 6y ago
  I can just type both Dvorak or Qwerty, it hasn't been much of a problem switching between the two. But in general, I use a keyboard that has an embedded layout, so I just bring my keyboard with me and all my bindings, macros, etc are with me. Very nice!
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  This is why I just bring my keyboard everywhere. I get everything I want without inconveniencing anyone else. I've considered building something extremely small like a Planck just for the extra portability.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    I am currently building a keyboard from scratch. Will have matrix (ortholinear) layout and will be running my completely custom controller software so that I can play with the mappings and functionality to my heart's desire. In particular I was thinking about putting sd card slot where I could put steno dictionary and have steno built in the keyboard. Mainly because I typically work on some high sec corporate computers where I am unable to install any custom software.

zck 6y ago

> Typing ‘HE’ (in Colemak) forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways twisting motion from the wrist and then back again. Perhaps I have larger hands than the average, but I don't experience this. I can even type DE with the index and middle finger of my right hand. Anyone have video of how this is uncomfortable? I'm having trouble imagining it.

SamBam 6y ago
I was stuck on that as well. For reference, this is typing the combination HK on a Qwerty keyboard. I shift my index finger over for the H, and then use my middle finger for the K. Watching my wrists, they don't move at all. I thought the rest of the article and the approach very interesting and rigorous, though, although I thought the text-only effort results of all the different books impossible to grok as text, and would have appreciated a simple chart.

archseer 6y ago

I'm using a similar layout (Norman) that was derived from the Workman analysis. https://normanlayout.info/about.html https://normanlayout.info/about.html It was a bit easier to learn because most of the keys are on the same finger as on qwerty, but with the rows swapped. For me the biggest problem with using an alternate layout is that the hjkl vim movement keys are scattered.

a-p-o 6y ago
I consider my .vimrc-fu as only beginner, but can't you remap the keys so NIOH act as HJKL?
- Legogris 6y ago
  Which becomes pretty annoying if you regularly work over remote SSH sessions to large number of hosts where you may not be the only person on a given user. (You could have some local shorthand to copy over your vimrc and explicitly start vim with a different copy, at which point you'll only have problems with shared tmux/screen sessions)
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  You pretty quickly run into dependency hell. You still want i mapped somewhere. Do you put that on qwerty-i/norman-r? Now where do you put r? qwerty-r/norman-f? Where do you put f? qwerty-f/norman-t? It's a mess. It would be much better if commands weren't so tightly associated with keys in vim.
thomastjeffery 6y ago
I tried a few different layouts and decided norman is my second favorite. Workman was slightly more difficult to learn, but that isn't really significant to me. I've been typing with workman for a few years now, and am very happy with it.

jimmar 6y ago

I'd love to see a rigorous analysis of whether this type of keyboard layout really reduces repetitive stress injuries. The metrics presented are interesting, but the reduced finger movement could be a bug rather than a feature. Small micro-stretching by having to reach for keys could actually be beneficial.

shawxe 6y ago
I think this is a very good and very underrated point. I'd like to see some evidence why there's any reason to assume repetitive movement with less stretching is somehow less harmful than repetitive movement with more stretching. I've been typing on the qwerty layout for about twenty-five years at this point, and I'm up to around 110WPM, so it would really take a gigantic amount of evidence for me to be bothered with trying to rewrite all of that muscle memory. There seems to be a tacit assumption that these alternate layouts improve something that qwerty is doing wrong, but as it stands I'm not convinced that premise has any merit. Still an interesting article, none the less.
jacobsenscott 6y ago
It would be very difficult to get enough people to switch layouts to do any kind of study. But you can probably look to gaming, where they optimize the layouts of the keys/gamepads and there's plenty of RSI. I think changing keyboard layout is unlikely to have any benefit. Especially since you need to spend an extra hour or two a day on typing drills to become productive. That must offset any benefit.
- toyg 6y ago
  Depends on your definition of “benefit”. You can drop regular practice after a while, so the penalty on speed and accuracy is effectively capped; while the benefit on wrist health is not, because it will stay with you for life. Imho a month or so of lower productivity is worth the long-term effects.
thomastjeffery 6y ago
That would be interesting. That being said, RSI isn't there only reason to use an alternate layout. I've been using workman for a few years now, for comfort. I find it much more comfortable to use.

thought_alarm 6y ago

First you have to get rid of the absurd Euro/ISO keyboard layout. http://i.stack.imgur.com/j4xYE.jpg http://i.stack.imgur.com/j4xYE.jpg Only then can we talk about moving the vowel keys.

klodolph 6y ago

An oversight in the layout, in my mind—the human hand is better at typing in certain directions… the hands very naturally roll towards the center, but it is less natural to rotate away from the center. This is… somewhat covered in the article under SHU… > It is much more efficient to ride the momentum of a single arm or wrist stroke and type a combo rather than just one key. Try ASDF versus FDSA on a QWERTY layout. ASDF feels much more natural, doesn't it? So, I’m concerned about the sequences like TH in the Workman layout. It looks like Workman is optimized more for minimum distance, and less for other factors. I think this is what happens when you optimize for the metrics that are easiest to measure! The thing about Dvorak is not just which keys press the fingers, but how you alternate. So if you write THE on Dvorak, your right hand naturally rolls TH using strong fingers, and then you type E using the left. On Workman, you are rolling away from center, which is less natural. Some clumsier words in Dvorak: SPHINX. PIX are all left 2nd digit, but they alternate with the right hand, to give the 2nd digit on the left time to move. I may be biased. I switched to Dvorak in high school and it fixed my RSI. Dvorak is also available everywhere. I can sit down at an unfamiliar computer and change it to Dvorak within a minute. The alternation, to me, means that my fingers have more time to move and can move more slowly and gently at the same typing speed. As a technical note—you should not be changing capslock in your layout like this on Linux. The option to choose a keyboard layout like US QWERTY or US Dvorak is a separate choice from the choice to map capslock to something else, and they shouldn't be combined. I’m also a bit surprised that the bottom row is ZXMCV. This is so close to ZXCV… why not just use ZXCV?

trashcan 6y ago
> Try ASDF versus FDSA on a QWERTY layout. ASDF feels much more natural, doesn't it? It doesn't for me. Is it significantly more difficult/awkward? Maybe I'm used to it from playing scales on piano?
- kqr 6y ago
  That could be it. I'm also a piano player and I think inward finger rolls are overestimated on computer keyboards. Dvorak also favours hand alternation, which I find appeals to me more. Unfortunately, Dvorak is not well suited to my native tongue (due to differences in letter frequencies) so I ended up learning Colemak instead, which also heavily emphasises inward finger rolls.

thanhhaimai 6y ago

For people looking to try a new layout, I recommend a Carpalx optimized layout. They have very detailed analysis on the layout: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization I've been using it on my Kinesis for a while, and it's totally worth it: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/kinesis/keymaps/carpalx/readme.md https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ki...

clarry 6y ago
> and it's totally worth it How would you characterise it? Speed, comfort, typo rate, something else? What layout(s) did you touch type on before carpalx? I might be interested in switching (after 15 years of increasingly customized dvorak).
- daffy 6y ago
  I've been using qgmlwb for 4 years or so. It's difficult to compare with qwerty, since I didn't type properly before, but it feels pretty comfortable and effortless. I feel like my right hand is overused, but I doubt it has anything to do with the layout, I just don't like using my right pinky; or, rather, it doesn't like to be used.
V-2 6y ago
I'm long aware of this website. Fascinating stuff. I wonder how this Workman Layout would fare, evaluted by their algorithm?
- daffy 6y ago
  There is an analysis of Workman here: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives
  - V-2 6y ago
    Indeed, thanks!

smabie 6y ago

> Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you’ll see what I mean. Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you’ll see what I mean Why is he shifting with his right hand instead of his left? It seems obvious, but maybe isn't: you should shift/ctrl with the opposite hand that is going to type the letter.

nuclear_eclipse 6y ago
On Colemak, the T is on the left hand, so the right hand would be moving to the right to press shift, then moving to the left to press the H, the moving right again for E.
taneq 6y ago
This is going back into the dark ages (we were taught on electric typewriters!) but when I did a typing course I was told only ever to use my left pinky for shift and right thumb for space.
- smabie 6y ago
  Is there a rationale behind that?
  - taneq 6y ago
    Not one that I'm aware of, and a quick check of modern online typing resources doesn't share the same bias. I guess it was either the teacher's preference or something she was taught in typewriter school.
    - toyg 6y ago
      I think “in the dark ages” it was more common to end up using keyboards with only one Shift key - think “nuclear reactor control panel” and stuff like that. So it probably made sense to bend touchtyping theory for practical purposes when preparing kids.
birdemic 6y ago

shirro 6y ago

A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I would just dictate it rather than try and optimize the alpha layout. I have been tempted to get a large ortho (lots of modifiers suck) and setup a split qwerty with a heap of symbols in the center columns between them. I type '"[]{}().=<> all day so I don't get why they should be marginalized. It is like expecting an accountant to use the 1-0 row instead of a numpad.

leotaku 6y ago
My country uses the QWERTZ layout which has dedicated keys for German umlauts. I mostly type in English however, so I've bound "([{" to "öäü". I now type umlauts using "AltGr+oau". It's definitely not a perfect solution, but it has worked well for me so far.
- vladvasiliu 6y ago
  AZERTY (French) here with numbers accessed through shift and brackets through AltGR. This is a horrendous layout. Bonus points for it being slightly different on Mac and PC. I have absolutely no idea how people can use this layout for programming without going crazy. I don't program full time, I mostly do sysadmin work, and even if I don't think that typing speed is a limiting factor for how much code I can write, I do find it extremely annoying to type certain characters which are used quite often. Regarding language I type equally English and French so I absolutely love the Mac OS international layout: QWERTY so everything is where you expect it but with ALT I can get pretty much every French character I want, easily. This could probably work for German, too: ALT U + U = Ü. ALT + S = ß. I'm not sure about other nordic languages, though. I love this so much that I configured my linux and windows pcs to use the same layout. Some characters take somewhat longer to type (three different key strokes for ù instead of one) but I guess that for someone not writing exclusively french prose the tradeoff is completely worth it.

lwb 6y ago

Looks very interesting, but re-learning how to type is so painful, not to mention devastating to my productivity at work, that I think I can only afford to do it once in a lifetime... I recently made the switch from QWERTY to Dvorak, during a 2 week period while I was in between jobs, and it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. Over a month later and I'm back up to a plodding 60 WPM (from a glorious 120 with QWERTY). Not to mention how shot my vim keybindings are! Maybe if I eventually switch again it will be less painful, but the experience has taught me that typing is almost 100% an exercise in muscle memory. Anyway, my point is, I wish I could be the kind of person that could type fluently in multiple keyboard layouts, if nothing else then just for the heck of it, but I'm not sure I'll ever have the kind of time to make that happen. Cool project though! There are certainly words and bigrams that are needlessly hard to type in Dvorak.

dmix 6y ago
I was curious about vim as well. I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY. This thread convinced me to try switching to Dvorak but I'm a bit scared after reading your comment. It's not clear from your comment, did you switch back to QWERTY or are you still giving it a shot?
- clarry 6y ago
  I've used dvorak & vim for 15 years with mostly default vim bindings. I don't think there's any problem. (I also use emacs with evil)
- cuddlybacon 6y ago
  > I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY. Only hjkl for movement. Everything else is fine. I still wouldn't make the switch again. You'd get more millage from spending the ~2 weeks doing a bunch of speed typing practice with qwerty.
  - fho 6y ago
    The problem is that most of the typing in vim is based on muscle memory ... thinking about it I have no idea what the keys I use for commenting out code. I tried to learn Dvorak and later Neo ... Not being able to use Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V like I was used to was annoying ... not being able to use vim anymore was the reason I stayed with QWERTY (QWERTZ in German).

pluto9 6y ago

I'm amazed that people are able to quickly "try out" new keyboard layouts. I'm not a particularly good typist as it is. I feel like a new layout would take months of infuriating practice and lost productivity to learn.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
Successfully "trying out" does not involve proficiency. I tried out several layouts before deciding I liked workman the most.

bentcorner 6y ago

Slightly OT, but I just now realized that I rarely actually use my pinky finger to type (particularly on the right). Left pinky: ctrl/shift (and sometimes but not always "a"), Right pinky: enter and "/". I usually shift my ring/middle finger around to compensate. If you asked me yesterday if I touch type "correctly" I would have said yes, but apparently I'm pretty sloppy with what fingers go where and my brain fills in the gaps without me realizing it.

Psychlist 6y ago

For people who write code rather than novels it would be really handy to see a corpus from github or somewhere.

edoo 6y ago

Or get a gyro ball and avoid the wrist problems altogether.

foolfoolz 6y ago

interesting this was explicitly designed for programming but the travel tests were for books. reproducing some open source program seems more relevant

camgunz 6y ago

I had some pain in my right pinky and it made me realize tons of programming symbols and Enter are over there. I’ve been strongly considering remapping them somehow, though after wrapping my pinky and ring finger together for a couple weeks I was fine.

clarry 6y ago
I have sticky modifiers on the top alpha row on middle fingers. So E+JK give me (), E+M, give me {}, E+UI give me [], E+H gives =. I+QWERTASDFGV give me numbers, I+U gives & and so on.. (actually I use a custom dvorak, but it's probably less confusing to explain this in terms of qwerty). Every symbol is bound this way. Shifts are also sticky so I don't need to tense up my hand so much for every capital letter. I'm still using too much pinkies for ctrl, but I think only a new keyboard will fix that (I need a proper thumb cluster, kinda like I had on my kinesis advantage).
- camgunz 6y ago
  Yeah I've been considering something like that; I'm pretty concerned with training myself away from QWERTY, but if I had some additional custom binds that seems workable.

Okkef 6y ago

Learning a new layout takes months of training. If you want to improve ergonomics, I would take the following steps; 1. Get as split keyboard for better shoulder posture (ultimate hacking keyboard) 2. Get a column staggered board instead of row staggered for better finger movement and more thumb keys (ergodox or iris keyboard) 3. Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria) 4. A sculpted and tented keyboard which allows the arm to untwist and is shaped like a dish to move keys closer to your fingers like the kinesis, dactyl, or Tightyl. I got used to a kyria board in a week and it's helped hugely to improve my back pain. Never going back to a non split keyboard!

risho 6y ago
>Learning a new layout takes months of training. This is completely false. If you go cold turkey and actually work at it you can actually memorize a keyboard layout in a single afternoon, though you will be slow as hell. If you keep at it without switching back you can get up to like 30 wpm in a week. I did it with both colemak and beakl 15. The problem isn't that it takes months, the problem is that it is incredibly tedious and you have to really want to do it because you will hate your life for the first couple of days.
- Okkef 6y ago
  I'm not saying it's impossible or that you shouldn't do it. I'm saying it's not the first thing you should improve. If you compare switching to colemak the other improvements I listed, it's by far the most effort. I am practicing colemak which mentally exhausts me a few times a week and I'm only up to 18 wpm. Picking up a split keyboard will take maybe an hour before you are back up to speed and you will gain the benefits instantly. When you're "back up to 30wpm after a week of training" you're still typing at crippled speeds. It takes a significant amount of effort to learn a new keyboard layout.
  - risho 6y ago
    I actually agreee. The conclusion I came to at the end of it was that learning a new keyboard layout was basically a waste of time for most people for a number of reasons. First of all there's no actual science that proves it's ergonomic efficacy and if it does actually accomplish anything it's negligible compared to other things you could do instead. On top of that it makes interfacing with other people's computers an absolute nightmare. It also has random bugs and quirks if you use software based implementations where it randomly won't work in vnc or a virtual machine or whatever. I actually did it just because I'm a technical masochist and it was fun, not because of some delusion of actually fixing anything. I wound up switching back to qwerty in the end. As for picking up a split keyboard being easy, that isn't necessarily the case depending on how messed up your typing is. You may need to relearn how to properly type to use them. That said I would agree that you would get MUCH more ergonomic benefits from switching to a split keyboard than you would from learning a new keyboard layout with a fraction of the work required. >When you're "back up to 30wpm after a week of training" you're still typing at crippled speeds. This definitely isn't true. You are actually just under the average typing speed. Also if you are doing stuff like programming or many other things your 70+ wmp typing isn't actually doing anything for you because your are already bottlenecked by thinking and other such things. Typing at 30wpm isn't nearly as bad as you think it is. Also you continue to improve from there.

Quequau 6y ago

As enraging as I find switching back and forth between English and German keyboards, I fear I just don't have the emotional fortitude for something like this.

stevev 6y ago

A few years ago I was stuck between workman, norman and colemak. I decided to go colemak for ease of transition. Being a longtime qwerty typer, my hands came to favor a more left hand typing ratio. I later realized colemak tends to be more right hand. My qwerty wpm rate went from avg 130 down to 80. My hands feel more comfortable typing colemak for long durations compared to qwerty. The placement of the letter H and E didn’t really bothered me. I’ve since picked up a modified version of colemak that fixes some of the short comings of colemak. Maybe one day I’ll pick up workman due to having a more even left/right hand distribution.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
I was in the same position, and picked workman. In the end, portability didn't matter, because I can just use my programmable keyboard everywhere.

asmosoinio 6y ago

This article is from (2010)

risho 6y ago
are keyboard layouts like a time sensitive matter? qwerty is from the 1800's and dvorak is from the 30's. By comparison this article came out yesterday.
- gsich 6y ago
  Yet no mention of NEO in the article?
- asmosoinio 6y ago
  Not really - but I thought this was something new when reading the article.

cryptos 6y ago

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? The longer I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that you have to hammer the new layout into your head, since there are many situations, like the keyboard of a colleague, where the physical layout wouldn't match. But again: how to learn it efficiently without a lot of frustrating typing errors? The best would be some kind of official standard and the introduction of a new layout in schools.

jeromenerf 6y ago
My 2 cents: You can actually reshuffle keys on many notebooks keyboards. And / or use stickers on the left over keys. They don’t look great, but I prefer layout over look :) Using a blank keyboard was a good forcing device to get better at touch typing. I sanded out a spare thinkpad keyboard. Cheap, effective. You need to practice. It can be an enjoyable activity, like running or working out. Rewiring your habits is actually easier if you enjoy the process. It takes time though. I have no issue working with other layouts, may it be another person computer (which if rare) or a mobile device, which don’t support Dvorak ootb. Our brains are great.
akdas 6y ago
> do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? Yes. > how do you _learn_ the layout then? Using an image of the new layout, and by doing drills. If you care about touch typing, you're training to type without looking at the keyboard anyway. This is how I learned to touch type on Dvorak years ago. I had never learned to touch type on QWERTY before, and I still can't. But then again, I typically don't type on other people's computers and when I do, I look at the keys.
shannongreen 6y ago
I learnt Dvorak 6 years ago and now type exclusively in Dvorak on QWERTY keyboards (currently a Microsoft Ergonomic). I have never used a keyboard with a Dvorak printed key layout. I think my Dvorak typing speed is still slightly slower than my old QWERTY max, but it feels much more comfortable typing for long periods, and less effortful. The printed keys don't mean much - to learn to touch type correctly you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway. I used a few typing games to start and then switched cold turkey for a few activities that didn't require speed (like responding to emails). It was, indeed, very frustrating. That said, I don't recommend switching for most people, because you will get much worse at QWERTY and when you occasionally need to type it (like on a colleague's keyboard) you will appear incompetent; you will ruin your muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts; and, because standard Dvorak is not great for programming IMO due to the position of the [{ and }] keys. But now I'm in too deep, and I know from experience how hard it is to switch so I don't want to switch back!

jansan 6y ago

Only partly related, but if you are an aging programmer like me you should consider using a vertical mouse. They are a total eyesore, but switching from a normal mouse is almost seamless and they can dramatically reduce wrist strain.

trisiak 6y ago

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special keys (shift, ctrl, backspace, enter) and that's not something colemak, dvorak or their friends seem to be addressing. I see analogy to guitar playing here. No matter how well you figure out finger positioning for a complex passage, you won't be playing with ease unless your elbow, wrist and spine are also positioned properly.

Okkef 6y ago
This is so true! There are so many quick wins to improve posture before the high-effort micro optimization of changing layouts: - split the keyboard for better shoulder posture (eg ultimate hacking keyboard but don't stop here) - Get a column staggered board with more thumb keys instead of row staggered for better finger movement (ergodox or iris keyboard) - Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria) - A sculpted and tented keyboard allows the arm to untwist. These keyboards are dish shaped which moves keys closer to your fingers. Examples are the kinesis, dactyl, or Tightyl (my own creation). I think the sweet spot for most people is the column staggered split layout.
- alpaca128 6y ago
  100% this. I'm using an ergonomic keyboard with the two halves of the keys at a slight angle and column-staggered design, and I can't imagine ever going back to a normal keyboard. Being able to enter every symbol without even moving the wrists is just too comfortable. It's more expensive than any standard keyboard and I had to solder it myself, but it's basically customised for my fingers. I'm not typing faster, but I have much more fun doing it and fewer issues with my shoulders. I would say it's a much more important upgrade than changing away from QWERTY(which actually isn't that bad, there are a few false myths floating around about it).
- 6y ago

stormdennis 6y ago

I used hunt and peck for years before learning to touch type. After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong of two successive letters. I'm a lot better than hunt and peck but I'm kind of disappointed. Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc

rgoulter 6y ago
> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Yes, it will take a significant amount of effort to change over to Dvorak layout. You're unlikely to see speed improvements with Dvorak without continuous effort. However, IMO, Dvorak feels a lot nicer to type with than qwerty. IME: I learned Dvorak around 5 years ago, but switched back to qwerty. A few weeks ago, decided to use Dvorak again. There's a "like riding a bike" quality to it; although I'd recommend against using different layouts with the same physical keyboard. > is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc IMO no. (They're infrequently used in either qwerty or dvorak, which makes sense to me. I don't notice one as better/worse than the other).
alpaca128 6y ago
In my experience it pays off to do a bit of typing practice every day for a few weeks. It noticably made me a bit faster and more accurate and it wasn't even remotely as hard and time-consuming as switching the layout. I think learning Dvorak etc. doesn't pay off at all and qwerty actually isn't as bad as people say(the real problems of mainstream keyboards are present in Dvorak etc. as well). Most people just don't consciously practice it regularly.
clarry 6y ago
> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Don't expect improvements in speed. For me it's all about comfort. What's a major job for you? You can memorize the layout in a day, type painfully slow for a couple days, start to feel rather comfortable in a week or two tops (still likely slower, depending on how fast you were, but now you're accustomed to the pace you type at on your new layout). Getting to the 80-100 WPM range takes weeks. This, of course, assumes that you put in the effort (do drills and memorize the layout first of all; keep doing drills daily, and don't switch back to your old layout when it feels convenient).

jarnagin 6y ago

One thing that often goes unmentioned when I see discussions about these sorts of alternate layouts is that, particularly for programmers, the keyboard isn’t just a simple device for entering text, it’s the mechanism through which we interact with our computing environment, and most tooling is either specifically or unintentionally designed to enhance the productivity of people typing in QWERTY. Whether it’s simple copy and paste, vim keybindings, shell commands, etc., using these sorts of tools from other layouts often feels much more tedious than it does in QWERTY. So I’d caution against adopting a new layout naively, unless you’re also willing to accept that you may have to also begin adapting your environment to your new layout in addition to learning the new board.

unkulunkulu 6y ago
Yes, there is some idiosyncrasy with hotkeys, vim is quite ok (Dvorak user here). Overall I remember it being crazy for some time but currently I’m quite happy with the results in entering text and programming. For hotkeys I still have to make guesses here and there because some programs expect them to be pressed “as in qwerty”, others “as in dvorak”.
toyg 6y ago
To be honest I never have any problem with that sort of thing with Colemak in terminals. The only issue I have is in games, where WASM is a religion.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  As much as I hate rebinding WASD in every game ever (and no two games share anything like a similar remap tool; every game's settings are a unique snowflake), it does at least amuse me every time that Colemak's replacement is WARS. It seems more appropriate for games, it spells out a vaguely appropriate word and R for Reverse actually makes sense mnemonically. (Walk, Around, Reverse, Sideways ;) Though nearly universal support of Xbox gamepads and made me more of a gamepad by default player, saving WASD remapping for rare cases.
thomastjeffery 6y ago

waynesonfire 6y ago

been using dvorak for 15 years and i'd do it again in a heartbeat. so smooth.

bonestamp2 6y ago

I use a modified Pok3r layout and dumping the caps-lock in favor of another modifier is one of the best keyboard hacks.

gerhardhaering 6y ago

I use the Neo layout since 2013. In my optinion, it is optimized for the German language and for programming. I really love it. On Linux this worked perfectly for me, but on Macs there are some (Electron?) applications which have their own idea of keybindings. Notably MS Teams. They have their own idea of keybindings and assume some kind of quertz layout. Which using neo makes typing a questionmark, which works using "layer 3 key" (caps lock) and what is "h" on querty impossible. So I end up mostly just typing :question in chat, which produces a questionmark emoticon. Talk about workarounds. Oh yeah, it does not work because Teams opens the "help" window instead.

resu_nimda 6y ago

Keyboard layouts are incredibly fascinating. For the amount of typing that is done today it feels like we are collectively still in the Dark Ages of textual input. A while ago on HN there was link to a talk from a stenographer (the people who do court reporting and other live transcription). They achieve the highest WPM by using a smaller keyboard and pressing "chords" of multiple keys at the same time, which map to sounds or words. Over time each individual customizes their "dictionary" to meet their usage/needs. From there it's easy to imagine a future where children are given devices that fit their hands like gloves or wii-motes that convert motions to text, with a system that adapts and grows with them over time.

agumonkey 6y ago
I never worked with dvorak or bepo but I felt qwerty or azerty are enough.. it's a bit like a guitar, things are not optimal, painful at times but you can do wonders anyway with some training.
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
One argument goes: Stenographers need to optimise for input speed, almost everyone else doesn’t have that requirement. Another argument goes: we don’t know what creativity might be enabled if everyone had that option / ability. I’ve always thought fingertip and finger joint implants would make good contacts for chord-like input. Ideas are cheap though.
- resu_nimda 6y ago
  Stenographers need to optimise for input speed, almost everyone else doesn’t have that requirement. Right, max WPM isn't necessarily everything (though it's a pretty good proxy for overall effectiveness of the tool), what's more interesting is the way the device can adapt to the user. The programmers complaining about the symbol keys could create mappings that make those easier/more natural (combined with a device with a more ergonomic form factor). Technically you can kind of do this with a regular keyboard via macros/expansions/remapping but it would work a lot better if the with a device that was designed with that in mind.
- 6y ago

thenoblesunfish 6y ago

DON'T DO IT* I absolutely love Workman. It's gorgeous. I spent months learning it, getting fast with it. I even got the supercool matrix style keyboard, I was so into it. But now I use QWERTY, and I sold my matrix style keyboard. Why? 1. Using the standard is useful. Other people's computers use QWERTY. Terminals for typing things in airports use QWERTY. When you have to do first aid stuff on your system, you're not going to get to change the layout. 2. QWERTY actually isn't bad. Yes, the home row is largely wasted, but other than that, it's not as ludicrous as you've been reading. For evidence, look up who the fastest typists in the world are - plenty of them use QWERTY. * if you think it's going to make you more efficient. If it's for fun, go for it. For me, it was worthwhile, because I got to forget QWERTY and re-learn with proper touch typing, not whatever 3-finger nonsense I was doing before.

clarry 6y ago
DO IT! Don't use other people's toothbrushes. Don't fly; even if you sometimes do, don't base your life choices around airport terminals or ATMs. Do your computer first aid with a keyboard that has your layout built in so there's no need to change it. Qwerty is actually bad.
cuddlybacon 6y ago
+1 I'm a dvorak user who wouldn't do it again if I had the chance.
noaccoun 6y ago
It's not about being faster, but to not suffer from RSI. QWERTY forces your hands to stay in abnormal position which can cause wrist pain. Ergonomic layouts (and column-staggered or ortholinear keyboards) are designed with that in mind.
- hrktb 6y ago
  Couldn't the hand positioning be mostly solved by remapping the few keys that pain you the most ? For me it was the control key and escape keys, and the others keys are otherwise standard. Also I'd argue people suffering from RSI shouldn't be striving for speed or efficiency that much. Some people switch their mouse hand or reverse buttons basically to detune, or split the load to other parts of their body, speed/efficiency be damned.

MrOxiMoron 6y ago

I don't use my computer for writing epic novels, I'm using it to play games (key placement doesn't matter) and programming. So how much easier/difference is there for programming in different languages? I know for a fact that PHP made the choice for the namespace separator based on availability on certain keyboard layouts.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
Hopefully you are writing comments and documentation. You just wrote a whole paragraph on HN. In my experience, there is a huge increase in comfort to be had.

bbx 6y ago

I think typing efficiently on a keyboard is akin to playing the piano with good technique. I often see musicians playing piano (or keyboard synths) with improprer technique. They move their wrist a lot, bend their finger backwards to apply pressure, and tense their fingers by laying them flat. This causes stress in the motion and fatigue over time. All (or most) the pressing power should come from the tip and the phalanges (?). You use each finger like its own little hammer. It requires a bit of training but not much really. You just need to strengthen those tiny muscles over time by consciously moving the finger only. Of course the rest of the hand can move a bit but it shouldn’t tense any muscle at all. The wrist should only hover around the piano/keyboard to move closer to the target keys. And the rest of the arm and shoulder should of course not move or tense at all. If you can play the piano like this, you can type on a keyboard the same way. No tension in the hand. Only a bit in the finger when it’s pressing, but none otherwise. As a result, you’ll likely prefer like me keyboards with very low travel. I have the Apple Mac keyboard which has a slight angle and very low travel. It’s very easy to “hammer” the keys with low effort. I’ve never had any wrist pain in 20 years of being both a musician and a developer.

block_dagger 6y ago
Piano player and programmer here. I largely agree, although I haven’t avoided injury in my 20 years, just learned to manage it.
robotmay 6y ago
Similar experience here, and in fact I use a floating typing style more akin to playing a piano instead of sitting on the home row. I actually did end up with bad RSI for a year, however, caused by typing on a laptop, but I now realise that was due to the extension of my arms. For a while I used Workman on an Ergodox keyboard, and it was very nice. But I learnt that I actually love QWERTY when I type in my floating style, and ultimately moved back to it and a Topre keyboard instead (which is a nice mid-point between non-mechanical and mechanical boards). I've just taken the piano back up after 18 years, and so far don't seem to be overly straining myself, so I'm hopefully on the right track with my technique. Years of playing diatonic accordion have hopefully used many of the same muscles!

xupybd 6y ago

I'd really love to see some serious work go into studying keyboard layouts to see if they actually make the differences claimed. Not that I'm sceptical more that I'd like to be able to quantify the difference they are worth. I'd love to try one out but not sure it's worth the time investment.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
There has been a lot of effort put into quantifying potential results. At the end of the day, workman is much more comfortable, and that makes me happy.

mmlkrx 6y ago

A few years ago I took the plunge and started learning Colemak after extensive typing left me with pain in my hands. I haven't had any typing related issues since so personally I can recommend learning an alternative keyboard layout (whether that be Workman, Dvorak, Colemak, or other). Using qwerty on other people's computers has never been an issue since I use my own machine most of the time. I do have to look at the keyboard when typing qwerty but it's quick enough so I don't really mind. If you're curious what it feels like to type Colemak, I wrote a small app a few years ago which simulates Colemak for someone on a qwerty keyboard: http://mmlkrx.github.io/colemak-typing-simulator/ http://mmlkrx.github.io/colemak-typing-simulator/

mcv 6y ago

Cool idea. "Database" is sadly still a primarily left-handed word, but I understand that's because the goal is not to change anything about querty that doesn't need to be changed. I think moving the 'e' to the right is a good idea.

explorigin 6y ago

I've been using Workman for 5 years now and it has been wonderful for reduced stress. The difference between QWERTY and workman has been so dramatic that I haven't needed to take any additional steps at managing forearm/wrist stress. People seem to pontificate about micro-optimizations but the fact is that you're reducing your overall motion of typing by more than half. An ergo keyboard is another way to do that but you still have awkward motions. Everyone has different sized hands. My fingers are a bit short for my average size. It works well for me.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
I've been using workman for a few years, and using a keyboardio model01 for about a year. Both have given a similar and drastic increase to the comfort of typing.

gillesjacobs 6y ago

I have done testing of my own on personalized keyboard lay-out by keylogging myself. My initial interest in keyboard layouts was piqued years ago with the CarpalX project [1], so I started keylogging myself in 2017. I am a researcher, programmer, sysadmin, and work in a multilingual environment (Python, English, Dutch, R, Java, French, Spanish), so I was expecting some interesting results. I put 3 years worth of keylogs into Patorjk's Keyboard Analyzer app [2] used by OP (after sanitizing passwords and personal identification). Here are my personal results: Programmer Colemak 59.06 Colemak 59.02 CarpalxQ 56.02 Workman 57.43 Workman for Programmers 57.16 Simplified Dvorak 54.71 Programmer Dvorak 53.96 personalized 53.53 QWERTY 46.61 AZERTY 44.83 I did build an Ergodox but never got around to learning it, so here are Ergodox scores: Colemak Thumbshift 63.12 Ergodox/Colemak/Cub 60.93 Ergodox Colemak v1 60.13 Ergodox/Workman/Cub 59.27 Ergodox Colemak v2 57.07 For me, Colemak variations seem to come on top over Workman and CarpalX in this test. Note that Patorjk's Keyboard Analyzer [2] does not have a ergonomic typing effort modeled in as much detail as the CarpalX model which takes into account full stroke path. It is very much possible that CarpalX will come out in front of Colemak using the more CarpalX model. Other interesting layouts can be found at the Keyboard-Design.com ranking [3] which uses [2] on different (programming) language inputs. For me personally, I will start learning Programmer Colemak on my regular keyboard and Colemak Thumbshift on my Ergodox. OP argues against Colemak based on added typing effort due to horizontal and diagonal stretching. If Workman is better in this regard, PatorJ's Keyboard Analyzer [2] as not as good a tool as CarpalX to reflect this advantage. CarpalX takes into account finger travel distance, hand/finger/row penalties and stroke path. PatorJ's tool does not model stroke path or allows for penalization of horizontal and diagonal movement. I would like to have seen an analysis using CarpalX as that could have strengthened your argument for Workman. Additionally, OP puts a lot of focus on the common monolingual English keystrokes (HE) which is not necessarily relevant for multilingual programmers. A personalized approach is necessary because most standard lay-outs are based on monolingual text datasets of books as is in the OP. Everyday typing of an IT-professional does not resemble natural language text in the slightest, so actual keylog input is required for any layout analysis IMHO. Overall, I very much appreciate the effort OP put into Workman, it looks great! It seems Workman is a serious contender for first place alongside Colemak and CarpalX. 1. http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx 2. http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer 3. https://www.keyboard-design.com/best-layouts-by-average-ranking.html https://www.keyboard-design.com/best-layouts-by-average-rank...

larme 6y ago

On normal keyboard layout you press so many keys with your pinky. I think it's ridiculous. I design my 40% keyboard (vortex core) layout[0] according to 3 principles: 1. do not assign pinky to any key need you press and hold (ctrl, shift, alt, etc.) 2. do not assign pinky to any key you press frequently 3. try to assign these keys to you thumb or bottom part of the palm (hypothenar?) So I assign space to the left palm, ctrl to the right palm, alt, cmd and shift to the left thumb, pn (modifier to enter numbers/symbols) to the right thumb. Enter is assigned to pn+n, esc is assigend to right pinky because I'm not a vim user. [0]: https://imgz.org/ih6XktnR/ https://imgz.org/ih6XktnR/

zetalemur 6y ago

Many years ago I too had pain in my wrists while doing lots of programming work. For me the game changer was using Vim and mapping ESC to jj in both the editor and the shell (via .inputrc). In fact I mostly use Vim because of the provided ergonomics, the fast editing capabilities are just the cherry on the cake. In my opinion the main culprit are modifier keys (e.g. by default the shell uses emacs bindings and you do a lot of ^A, ^E, ^R, etc.), but using jj mostly solves the issue as you just have to reach for Ctrl when you require SIGINT or copy/pasting in different environments that do not support vi keys. There are also people that remap it to Caps-Lock, but I just don't like to use my pinky that often. Of course, everybody is different, but it makes sense to think about a setup that suits you and your health.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
Modifier keys suck on traditional keyboards. Modifier keys are great when they are put under your thumbs.
- zetalemur 6y ago
  It's true, I don't have any problem with using SPACE via left thumb, but I have never encountered a layout or keyboard that let's me use the thumb for modifier keys. Do you have an example?
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    I'm using a keyboardio Model 01 (https://shop.keyboard.io/ https://shop.keyboard.io/) right now. The thumb (and thumb knuckle) keys are my favorite design point, but the entire design is excellent. They are out of stock, but the designs are open source, and there are a lot of other great DIY designs around. The Ergodox has thumb clusters similar to the Kinesis Advantage. There is also the Dactyl, and many many more. If you want to go down this rabbit hole, reddit is a good place to start: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/

antigirl 6y ago

I agree modifier keys are the devil. Laptop keyboards are not designed for ergo at all. I use an ergodox ez and have various layers. Layer for directional keys. Layer for all my vscode shortcuts (you can do Marcos). Layer for symbols. Even a layer to control mouse, however I don’t like or use this I use thumb clusters for the most common modifiers like space, enter, backspace, command What’s great is that I can define alternative keys when the keys are pressed down. So I use them to activate various layers I also use auto shift feature so holding down a a key will get your the shifted option. Great for gets Caps version etc Here is what my layout looks like https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/RlxdW/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/RlxdW/la...

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Interesting. But perhaps similar to re-inventing spats to use plastic instead of celluloid - too little, too late. Perhaps more useful to work out making thumb-typing on a phone better.

deckiedan 6y ago

I've been using this for a few years now. I deliberately only used it on a kinesis advantage (and typematrix I tried out for a while - lack of ergonomically placed modifier keys killed me though...). I deliberately use QWERTY on laptops and so on, so my fingers retain some memory of that and let me switch back and forth easily. It took a while to get fast enough to be productive - it's a pain switching layouts. The nice thing about using a kinesis advantage is that as it re-maps the keys in the keyboard, the computer isn't aware of keyboard mapping at all. When I was trying out things like the typematrix or a MS keyboard that required drivers etc, it was always a pain getting things like BIOS passwords, login screens, etc. to work reliably.

mozey 6y ago

Instead of using an alternate keyboard layout, I found the alternative finger positioning described here works great for me: https://typingsoft.com/typing.htm https://typingsoft.com/typing.htm The trick is to keep you wrists straight

SeriousM 6y ago
Since I (was) a gamer my left hand rests on WASD. It's just a natural position for me :)

linsomniac 6y ago

Here's a good PyCon presentation from someone who switched to voice input for programming. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-dB6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-dB6g I hadn't thought about it until this thread, but one of the biggest barriers for me using it was that we have a really quiet open office, but now that we are WFH...

new_realist 6y ago

I use BEAKL v15.

neves 6y ago

Very nice work, I'd like to see the result not with books, but with programming languages. The problem is but you loose a very valuable thing: the ability to use any keyboard. You won't be able to pair program. You'll be very slow when using your mother's computer. The ability to use any keyboard is more valuable than increasing your WPS.

snazz 6y ago
Some people are able to use two keyboard layouts fairly well so long as they practice both. Having and using a traditional keyboard layout on a laptop in addition to your heavily-customized desktop setup is a good way to do both.
dljsjr 6y ago
Typically alternative keyboard layouts are installed as a mapping at the operating system level, I don't think the author is proposing a keyboard with that hardware layout. And most modern OS's allow for switching key maps on the fly with little effort. I worked in a lab with a guy who typed exclusively in Dvorak and there was no issue with pair programming along side him nor for him to get his key map on shared workstations.
thomastjeffery 6y ago
Some people have managed to keep their qwerty muscle memory. I haven't. To me, it's absolutely worth it. If I'm going somewhere that I might use someone else's system for more than a few minutes, I bring my keyboard.

iimblack 6y ago

I'm going on paternity leave soon and hoping to use the opportunity to learn a new keyboard layout but I'm having a tough time picking which one to learn. I've already got an ergonomic keyboard (Iris) but I still hate the feeling of querty's layout. I run into so many words that just feel bad to type. I think I've narrowed it down to two options (but I'm open to suggestions): Colemak mod-DH and Dvorak. They both take pretty different approaches that both seem to have merit. I like the ubiquity of Dvorak but I don't really predict it'll be difficult for me to get Colemak on any computer I use. Dvorak seems great but the placement of L and S seem very awkward to me. Colemak mod-DH seems to make more sense but I'm skeptical of the promise of finger rolls.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
When I was at this stage, I tried dvorak, colemak, workman, and norman. I got sick of typing ls -l with my pinky, so I decided against Dvorak. I really liked the feel of digraphs in workman and norman. In the end, I decided I didn't like the h placement in Norman. After typing with workman for a few years, I'm very glad I learned. Every time I type, I am reminded how much more comfortable it is. I would recommend you look at what's available, and choose whatever one you like best. If you are on the fence about two or three, just start learning all of them, and drop the ones you don't like.

neves 6y ago

My favorite keyboard improvement is Ten Key Less (TKL), and buying a separated numpad. Your hand will be nearer the mouse. Less movement is more comfortable.

nwah1 6y ago

Agree with Workman's criticism of Colemak, that the letters D and H are placed sub-optimally. I find moving O to reduce the use of the right pinky to be pointless, and self-contradictory since A is not moved, and remains under the left pinky. I also find the movement of C and V to be a non-starter for me. It looks like the Norman layout tries to address the DH issue of Colemak without messing up common shortcuts. Although the DH issue is not enough for me to abandon Colemak. Probably because I have large-ish hands and thus don't make any wrist movement when typing HE, as the Workman author does. Although, for those still on QWERTY, switching layouts in general is just not worth it. Remap capslock to a backspace and be done with it. And maybe get an ergonomic keyboard that doesn't mess too much with the placement of modifier keys.

thomastjeffery 6y ago
After years of using qwerty, I've gotten used to having 'a' on left pinky. Switching to workman has been absolutely worth it to me.
WorldMaker 6y ago
DH was an intentional compromise that Colemak took to increase QWERTY compatibility and Colemak documentation has always acknowledged that, so I respect it isn't perfect, given trade-offs, but as Workman acknowledges changing DH has a knock-on of changing a lot of things that I like about Colemak. I think Colemak also better optimized some trigraphs over Workman's digraph focus. That said, the difference between Workman/Norman/Colemak/Dvoarak is all rather "slight" compared to the respective distance between Qwerty and any of them, so some of these distinctions truly are "micro-optimizations". Most people would do better to learn any of them than keep with QWERTY whether or not they can tell which one micro-optimized better.

xedrac 6y ago

I used Workman for a year back in 2013. I even submitted it for inclusion into the Xorg project (perhaps a little prematurely). https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56998 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56998 Overall the layout felt great and relieved a lot of pain. I have two issues with it. The first one is that vim keybindings are terrible. This could easily be fixed by remapping keys in vim. The second issue is typing PO and OP sequences. This wasn't really noticeable until I hit around 60-70 wpm, then it stuck out like a sore thumb. If you don't typically type faster than that, this probably isn't an issue. I have also typed Colemak and Dvorak (current layout) at a high level. Colemak was the the most painful for me as my index fingers just felt overloaded all the time. Dvorak was also a little painful on the right pinky until it got stronger. Dvorak was also the hardest of the three layouts to get used to. All three are way better than Qwerty when it comes to typing comfort.