7 ms·

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair e

by rconti 6y ago

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded to COVID-19, putting their lives on the line every day, with utterly inadequate gear. And still they serve. Yes, if the police are less militarized and have more personal liability/responsibility, it will reduce the level of interest in the profession somewhat, but I think we have to not kid ourselves about the degree of such an impact. This is before we get into whether we really even want "those people" (who are attracted to the militaristic side of policing) 'serving' our communities at all. Just as anti-pursuit policies have swept the nation to reduce officer-involved carnage, we can reduce escalation of violence.

RangerScience 6y ago
Changing the police narrative to one of serving, regardless of adversity (see doctors and USPS) from one of "getting to play with violent toys"...
- ikeyany 6y ago
  There was a big push for more community policing and less "tacticool" policing the last time these protests happened. That seemed to have petered out after a few years.
- AWildC182 6y ago
  It's interesting trolling that side of the youtube algorithm. It's abundantly clear that we've shifted from cops just being a mix of individuals who want to help and a substantial number of not-so-ex-high-school-bullies to full on military LARPers. The DHS funding being pumped into the forces have resulted in police being better battle-equipped than the average country's military and this has become a recruiting tool. Don't want to sign many years of your life away and probably get shipped out to a -stan where you have to deal with constant misery just to live out a military fantasy? Just go to a police academy for a couple months and you can cosplay all you want while with all the same toys in a "target rich environment". The end result is we've created a recruiting pull that only finds the worst possible people for the job. It would be like HR only hiring people for a software company who picked computer science entirely because they heard it was high paying but somehow far far deadlier.
  - in_cahoots 6y ago
    Is there any evidence this is true? The vast majority of cops will never aim their weapons at another person or use military gear beyond training. Is the slim chance of getting to use a humvee once in your career really compelling?
    - ksdale 6y ago
      A lot of people end up in law school because of courtroom dramas, even though the vast majority of attorneys don't spend much time at all in a courtroom...
      - chipperyman573 6y ago
        You're backing a claim made without any evidence by using another claim without evidence
        ksdale 6y ago
        I went to a well-regarded law school and happen to have witnessed first hand both how many students were surprised that they wouldn't end up seeing the inside of a courtroom in their careers, and how many students shifted their goals from wanting to be a prosecutor or a civil litigator to wanting to do one of the hundreds of other things attorneys do on a daily basis.
    - perfmode 6y ago
      right now, in the present moment, on might argue that a majority of police in america are presently participating in this cosplay.
    - AWildC182 6y ago
      Traditionally that was the case, however there's been an increase in incidents where they have been responding with far more gear and weapons than could possibly be reasonable. In short, they're actively looking for excuses to play dress-up and it's getting worse.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  Perhaps with some sort of hippocratic oath?
  - vulcan01 6y ago
    I don't think that's what causes doctors to be ethical (most of the time). Pros of being a doctor: high pay, you get to help people. People who don't want to help other people will not become doctors. On the other hand, people who want to harm others, have a higher chance of joining the police force. (Not all police officers, but some.)
    - RangerScience 6y ago
      And, arguably, the Hippocratic oath is backed up by malpractice suits.
pmorici 6y ago
I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?
- rconti 6y ago
  I think it's worth discussing as I also had slight misgivings about the perceived disparity you mention. I'm not sure that it's relevant, as the pay scale for LPNs/CNs/CNAs are all over the place... and overtime and retirement benefits can make law enforcement extremely lucrative careers. But I just don't have the numbers for it either way.
- makoz 6y ago
  Are we factoring in the vastly different requirements for each profession starting out? Seems disingenuous to compare say Doctors who go through medical school vs people who only need a high school degree and however long training takes.
- Terretta 6y ago
  Is "the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage" overstating things a little? Looks like NYC cops make more than NYC nurses, or it's close. From the source, starting $42K, $85K after 5 years, plus benefits: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-be... New York nursing, average pay (> 5 years) $83K, $89K in NYC. When you factor in years of medical school for the degree, medical malpractice insurance, and lack of benefits versus police pension, police are generally netting more.
  - pmorici 6y ago
    In Baltimore, the minimum wage is $15 an hour (31k / yr) and the starting salary for a police trainee is advertised to be around 35k. The point isn't whether they get paid the wrong amount for the qualifications required the point is about the calculus about how much you are willing to put up with when you are getting paid $70k vs $300k. If I'm getting paid $300k and once or twice in my 40 year career I have to deal with a pandemic my thought process about how I feel about that is different than if I'm making 70k. All I'm saying is comparing doctors to cops doesn't seem particularly useful.
syshum 6y ago
>>This is before we get into whether we really even want "those people" this is the key point. I have known many people that would like to have been a "police officer" in the sense that I believe many people think policing should be. After finding out it is more like the military than servicing the community they dropped the pursuit More recently I have even seen many Former Military people shy away from going into the policing because the paramilitary tactics and procedures of modern militarized policing are in many ways MORE extreme than any rules of engagement that the military employed in their theaters of operation (i.e US Police treat citizens of this nation worse than the US Military does when we invade a nation) Any Police Reform that does not involve MASSIVE demilitarization of the police force is a waste of time
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  A big part of this that I don't see addressed: huge numbers of LEO's are sent to Israel to train. I don't even have to say anything further. It speaks for itself.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    I think in Atlanta the instructors came from Israel to the police force.
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    Israelis excel in the defense industry and their mandatory military service means few people with physical and perceptual aptitude are untrained. I assume you are implying an Israeli cannot be a good police trainer because they occupy Palestine, but I disagree.
    - jacobush 6y ago
      No, because they are notoriously violent.
      - 1123581321 6y ago
luckylion 6y ago
I'm pretty sure that the medical professionals will not be happy if you made this the new normal, so I'm not sure it's wise to bring this out as an argument for "so it should be okay for the police to do this normally". Also, fewer surgeons and nurses get shot on the job, I assume.
- jkaptur 6y ago
  You may want to check that assumption (particularly if you expand to violence in general).
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Relative to industry size? From what I understand, assaults on health care workers is a large issue, but they are also much more numerous than law enforcement. It's hard to find exact numbers, as I really don't know the US government industry names very well, so I have no idea whether "Police protection" in IIF contains all LE and "Health care and social assistance" is the appropriate other category, but HE has slightly more deaths (138 vs 111) while employing a lot more people (16m vs <1m).
tehwebguy 6y ago
Taking away their toys would have a massive impact, don't concern troll that vital point away.
- jariel 6y ago
  For once I am not nearly as cynical and I believe that far from 'massive impact' - it will be negligible. It's only been a decade or so since a lot of this surplus has come in, moreover, I really don't believe most cops want this, or are naive enough to believe it will be a material part of their jobs. I'm surprised to even see the argument offered, I'm very interested in hearing from someone with inside experience on this enlighten us as to how much these kinds of 'opportunities' actually affect morale.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. Instead, make your substantive points thoughtfully. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
sorokod 6y ago
Getting rid of people with infantile obsession in everything "tactical" ( Google for 'tactical underware') is a step in the right direction.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hugh4life 6y ago
"But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded to COVID-19, putting their lives on the line every day, with utterly inadequate gear. And still they serve." You can't compare spontaneous heroism with mundane risk.
- ameister14 6y ago
  It's funny because nursing isn't much less dangerous than policing.
GoodJokes 6y ago
Yea, we don't all agree we need police. In fact, probably the best way to fix the problem of police is to get rid of them in their current form. Here is a free ebook: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing
pow_pp_-1_v 6y ago
Wouldn't it be better to pay police/firefighters/teachers more? If it means a little bit more in taxes for getting well trained (in dealing with the public), empathetic police officers, I am all for it.
geodel 6y ago
> But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded to COVID-19, putting their lives on the line every day, with utterly inadequate gear. This is exactly an American hero obsession that is causing police problem. Everyone here : police, fire department, medical staff and so on have to be heroes. From where I come, all doctors, lawyers, police or any other service provides are identified at best working for a pay or more commonly out there to rip off common people at first chance they get. My US experience of doctors is not much better considering how much private, non-insurance covered treatment they "recommended" for my kid. It feels highly unlikely that they had my best interest at their heart.
tonystubblebine 6y ago
Increasing the cost of a single cop isn't the same as increasing the cost of a police force. It seems obvious to me that as we work toward decarceration and decriminalization there will be a need for fewer police officers. Practically everyone agrees that racial profiling should go away. Well, that's less "work" and should lead to fewer staff. Pretty similar public sentiment toward drug possession. Not quite cops, but related. If we got rid of cash bail we'd need smaller prisons and fewer corrections officers. People who are released without bail overwhelmingly return for their court dates. So the only reason they are in jail is because they couldn't afford bail--they haven't been convicted of a crime. And that bail is then used to coerce confessions out of people. On a given night, about 470k people are in jail because they couldn't make bail. That's about 25% of incarcerated people. Source: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
standardUser 6y ago
I had a friend in college who dropped out and attended a police academy program. After finishing the program and going on a lot of ride-alongs with local police, he decided not to become a cop because the culture he encountered was so toxic it turned him off to the entire idea. He was a good guy, smart, not an angry bone in his body. Maybe if we make policing a desirable career instead on extension program for high school bullies, we could attract better people to the job.
loco5niner 6y ago
> if the police are less militarized and have more personal liability/responsibility, it will reduce the level of interest in the profession somewhat I would think it would change the TYPE of person interested in such a job. I wouldn't be interested in a job where I'm just beating people up but I would be interested in a job helping people.

by rconti 6y ago

RangerScience 6y ago

Changing the police narrative to one of serving, regardless of adversity (see doctors and USPS) from one of "getting to play with violent toys"...

ikeyany 6y ago
There was a big push for more community policing and less "tacticool" policing the last time these protests happened. That seemed to have petered out after a few years.
AWildC182 6y ago
It's interesting trolling that side of the youtube algorithm. It's abundantly clear that we've shifted from cops just being a mix of individuals who want to help and a substantial number of not-so-ex-high-school-bullies to full on military LARPers. The DHS funding being pumped into the forces have resulted in police being better battle-equipped than the average country's military and this has become a recruiting tool. Don't want to sign many years of your life away and probably get shipped out to a -stan where you have to deal with constant misery just to live out a military fantasy? Just go to a police academy for a couple months and you can cosplay all you want while with all the same toys in a "target rich environment". The end result is we've created a recruiting pull that only finds the worst possible people for the job. It would be like HR only hiring people for a software company who picked computer science entirely because they heard it was high paying but somehow far far deadlier.
- in_cahoots 6y ago
  Is there any evidence this is true? The vast majority of cops will never aim their weapons at another person or use military gear beyond training. Is the slim chance of getting to use a humvee once in your career really compelling?
  - ksdale 6y ago
    A lot of people end up in law school because of courtroom dramas, even though the vast majority of attorneys don't spend much time at all in a courtroom...
    - chipperyman573 6y ago
      You're backing a claim made without any evidence by using another claim without evidence
      - ksdale 6y ago
        I went to a well-regarded law school and happen to have witnessed first hand both how many students were surprised that they wouldn't end up seeing the inside of a courtroom in their careers, and how many students shifted their goals from wanting to be a prosecutor or a civil litigator to wanting to do one of the hundreds of other things attorneys do on a daily basis.
  - perfmode 6y ago
    right now, in the present moment, on might argue that a majority of police in america are presently participating in this cosplay.
  - AWildC182 6y ago
    Traditionally that was the case, however there's been an increase in incidents where they have been responding with far more gear and weapons than could possibly be reasonable. In short, they're actively looking for excuses to play dress-up and it's getting worse.
elliekelly 6y ago
Perhaps with some sort of hippocratic oath?
- vulcan01 6y ago
  I don't think that's what causes doctors to be ethical (most of the time). Pros of being a doctor: high pay, you get to help people. People who don't want to help other people will not become doctors. On the other hand, people who want to harm others, have a higher chance of joining the police force. (Not all police officers, but some.)
  - RangerScience 6y ago
    And, arguably, the Hippocratic oath is backed up by malpractice suits.

pmorici 6y ago

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

rconti 6y ago
I think it's worth discussing as I also had slight misgivings about the perceived disparity you mention. I'm not sure that it's relevant, as the pay scale for LPNs/CNs/CNAs are all over the place... and overtime and retirement benefits can make law enforcement extremely lucrative careers. But I just don't have the numbers for it either way.
makoz 6y ago
Are we factoring in the vastly different requirements for each profession starting out? Seems disingenuous to compare say Doctors who go through medical school vs people who only need a high school degree and however long training takes.
Terretta 6y ago
Is "the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage" overstating things a little? Looks like NYC cops make more than NYC nurses, or it's close. From the source, starting $42K, $85K after 5 years, plus benefits: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-be... New York nursing, average pay (> 5 years) $83K, $89K in NYC. When you factor in years of medical school for the degree, medical malpractice insurance, and lack of benefits versus police pension, police are generally netting more.
- pmorici 6y ago
  In Baltimore, the minimum wage is $15 an hour (31k / yr) and the starting salary for a police trainee is advertised to be around 35k. The point isn't whether they get paid the wrong amount for the qualifications required the point is about the calculus about how much you are willing to put up with when you are getting paid $70k vs $300k. If I'm getting paid $300k and once or twice in my 40 year career I have to deal with a pandemic my thought process about how I feel about that is different than if I'm making 70k. All I'm saying is comparing doctors to cops doesn't seem particularly useful.

syshum 6y ago

>>This is before we get into whether we really even want "those people" this is the key point. I have known many people that would like to have been a "police officer" in the sense that I believe many people think policing should be. After finding out it is more like the military than servicing the community they dropped the pursuit More recently I have even seen many Former Military people shy away from going into the policing because the paramilitary tactics and procedures of modern militarized policing are in many ways MORE extreme than any rules of engagement that the military employed in their theaters of operation (i.e US Police treat citizens of this nation worse than the US Military does when we invade a nation) Any Police Reform that does not involve MASSIVE demilitarization of the police force is a waste of time

arminiusreturns 6y ago
A big part of this that I don't see addressed: huge numbers of LEO's are sent to Israel to train. I don't even have to say anything further. It speaks for itself.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  I think in Atlanta the instructors came from Israel to the police force.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Israelis excel in the defense industry and their mandatory military service means few people with physical and perceptual aptitude are untrained. I assume you are implying an Israeli cannot be a good police trainer because they occupy Palestine, but I disagree.
  - jacobush 6y ago
    No, because they are notoriously violent.
    - 1123581321 6y ago

luckylion 6y ago

I'm pretty sure that the medical professionals will not be happy if you made this the new normal, so I'm not sure it's wise to bring this out as an argument for "so it should be okay for the police to do this normally". Also, fewer surgeons and nurses get shot on the job, I assume.

jkaptur 6y ago
You may want to check that assumption (particularly if you expand to violence in general).
- luckylion 6y ago
  Relative to industry size? From what I understand, assaults on health care workers is a large issue, but they are also much more numerous than law enforcement. It's hard to find exact numbers, as I really don't know the US government industry names very well, so I have no idea whether "Police protection" in IIF contains all LE and "Health care and social assistance" is the appropriate other category, but HE has slightly more deaths (138 vs 111) while employing a lot more people (16m vs <1m).

tehwebguy 6y ago

Taking away their toys would have a massive impact, don't concern troll that vital point away.

jariel 6y ago
For once I am not nearly as cynical and I believe that far from 'massive impact' - it will be negligible. It's only been a decade or so since a lot of this surplus has come in, moreover, I really don't believe most cops want this, or are naive enough to believe it will be a material part of their jobs. I'm surprised to even see the argument offered, I'm very interested in hearing from someone with inside experience on this enlighten us as to how much these kinds of 'opportunities' actually affect morale.
dang 6y ago
Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. Instead, make your substantive points thoughtfully. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

sorokod 6y ago

Getting rid of people with infantile obsession in everything "tactical" ( Google for 'tactical underware') is a step in the right direction.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

hugh4life 6y ago

"But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded to COVID-19, putting their lives on the line every day, with utterly inadequate gear. And still they serve." You can't compare spontaneous heroism with mundane risk.

ameister14 6y ago
It's funny because nursing isn't much less dangerous than policing.

GoodJokes 6y ago

Yea, we don't all agree we need police. In fact, probably the best way to fix the problem of police is to get rid of them in their current form. Here is a free ebook: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing

pow_pp_-1_v 6y ago

Wouldn't it be better to pay police/firefighters/teachers more? If it means a little bit more in taxes for getting well trained (in dealing with the public), empathetic police officers, I am all for it.

geodel 6y ago

> But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded to COVID-19, putting their lives on the line every day, with utterly inadequate gear. This is exactly an American hero obsession that is causing police problem. Everyone here : police, fire department, medical staff and so on have to be heroes. From where I come, all doctors, lawyers, police or any other service provides are identified at best working for a pay or more commonly out there to rip off common people at first chance they get. My US experience of doctors is not much better considering how much private, non-insurance covered treatment they "recommended" for my kid. It feels highly unlikely that they had my best interest at their heart.

tonystubblebine 6y ago

Increasing the cost of a single cop isn't the same as increasing the cost of a police force. It seems obvious to me that as we work toward decarceration and decriminalization there will be a need for fewer police officers. Practically everyone agrees that racial profiling should go away. Well, that's less "work" and should lead to fewer staff. Pretty similar public sentiment toward drug possession. Not quite cops, but related. If we got rid of cash bail we'd need smaller prisons and fewer corrections officers. People who are released without bail overwhelmingly return for their court dates. So the only reason they are in jail is because they couldn't afford bail--they haven't been convicted of a crime. And that bail is then used to coerce confessions out of people. On a given night, about 470k people are in jail because they couldn't make bail. That's about 25% of incarcerated people. Source: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

standardUser 6y ago

I had a friend in college who dropped out and attended a police academy program. After finishing the program and going on a lot of ride-alongs with local police, he decided not to become a cop because the culture he encountered was so toxic it turned him off to the entire idea. He was a good guy, smart, not an angry bone in his body. Maybe if we make policing a desirable career instead on extension program for high school bullies, we could attract better people to the job.

loco5niner 6y ago

> if the police are less militarized and have more personal liability/responsibility, it will reduce the level of interest in the profession somewhat I would think it would change the TYPE of person interested in such a job. I wouldn't be interested in a job where I'm just beating people up but I would be interested in a job helping people.