5 ms·

Ehh, Microsoft only opened exFAT after smartphones dropped all SD card slots and it was no longer possible for them to extort Android device manufacturers with

Ehh, Microsoft only opened exFAT after smartphones dropped all SD card slots and it was no longer possible for them to extort Android device manufacturers with patent licensing.

beefhash 6y ago
How long until the patents expire?
- loeg 6y ago
  ~2009 + 20 years. You've got a long time to wait if you're not part of OIN. They're arguably invalid patents, in the sense that the filesystems concepts within are not remotely novel and the application to FAT is trivial and obvious.
  - ComputerGuru 6y ago
    Released 2006, actually. Shipped with WinCE 6.0.
    - loeg 6y ago
      Doesn't matter when the code shipped, only when the patents were applied for. The application date on the later patents is 2009. https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/040789901/publication/US2009164539A1?q=pn%3DUS8606830 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0407899... https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/040789823/publication/US2009164440A1?q=pn%3DUS8321439 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0407898...
      - toast0 6y ago
        In a sense, it doesn't matter if the patents are valid or not, but isn't the rule that you have to apply within one year of making the invention available, and shouldn't including it in a release count for that? (Maybe that rule changed with the big changes around first to file and expiration based on application instead of grant date.)
        rayiner 6y ago
        No, you are correct. Publicly shipping the product that implements the invention starts the clock. But here, the parents claim priority to an application filed in 2004. (That means the invention was disclosed in that earlier application, even if it wasn’t specifically claimed.) When you claim priority like that, your 20 years starts running from the earliest priority date. So the patents expire in 2024.
pjmlp 6y ago
Around here there are plenty of Android phones and tablets with SD card slots to chose from.
fierarul 6y ago
I agree. It's a token gesture. Even if you do have SD card slots android offers to extends storage to that, which I think means it formats the card as EXT4 or something. Maybe TV manufacturers care about this, but in mobile it's a non-event. Maybe Microsoft could open-source MSDOS in order for FreeDOS to have a rejuvenating moment.
- compsciphd 6y ago
  well, they have for early versions of msdos[1], though probably anything less than 3.3 only has historical value to anyone. [1] https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS
  - fierarul 6y ago
    Yes, they like to do these kind of things in the name of loving open source nowadays. Also open sourced a 40 year old BASIC implementation which can only be good for a Computer Museum display. MSDOS 6.0 might be interesting. Windows 3.1 too.
    - danieldk 6y ago
      MSDOS 6.0 might be interesting. Windows 3.1 too. And MS-DOS 4.0/4.1, not to be confused with 4.00/4.01, which had multi-tasking features: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS_4.0_(multitasking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS_4.0_(multitasking)
asveikau 6y ago
> after smartphones dropped all SD card slots Last I checked, only at the high end and Google devices, and substantially less true in non-US markets. Careful with proclaiming such a bubble to be universal. I am sure in mountain view some PMs make decisions based on "oh but we killed the SD card years ago" but they don't have actual power to do that.
- easytiger 6y ago
  You can also plug any USB stick into most androids
- solarkraft 6y ago
  It's fun to see bubble-driven remarks like "no phones have SD card slots anymore" or "there are no headphone jacks on phones nowadays". Welp, you can influence that and I won't buy a phone without either.
  - fdgbd23 6y ago
    >I won't buy a phone without either You used to be able to say the same for phones without holes in their screen or TV sets without internet connectivity.
    - asveikau 6y ago
      Or a phone with a removable battery. I am personally disappointed by that one. A lot of phones are skimping on internal batteries these days and it kills the life of the phone fairly quickly. The previous phone I had, since I had been burned repeatedly by phones I was otherwise happy with but the internal battery didn't last a year, I decided to shop around for the few remaining Android phones with decent performance that had an easily replaceable battery. I had to pick a model from late 2016.
      - tadfisher 6y ago
        It's more the ubiquitous and uncontrollable fast-charging that kills batteries. I would love for charging power controls baked into Android, as I know there are one or two manufacturers who have them (ASUS and Sony?).
aries1980 6y ago
Camera/camcorder makers are huge market, and they use Linux internally. E.g. Sony's stuff: https://oss.sony.net/Products/Linux/ https://oss.sony.net/Products/Linux/
- exikyut 6y ago
  What a fastidiously/meticulously organized wall of text. I want the picture book version :(
amelius 6y ago
Patents should not be allowed on communication protocols and storage formats, or anything with lock-in potential really.
- kchr 6y ago
  Hear hear!
magicalhippo 6y ago
> after smartphones dropped all SD card slots So companies like Samsung[1], Sony[2], Motorola[3], Xiaomi[4] and LG[5] don't make smartphones anymore? [1]: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s20-10081.php https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s20-10081.php [2]: https://www.gsmarena.com/sony_xperia_1_ii-10096.php https://www.gsmarena.com/sony_xperia_1_ii-10096.php [3]: https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_edge-10133.php https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_edge-10133.php [4]: https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_mi_a3-9769.php https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_mi_a3-9769.php [5]: https://www.gsmarena.com/lg_k61-10088.php https://www.gsmarena.com/lg_k61-10088.php

Ehh, Microsoft only opened exFAT after smartphones dropped all SD card slots and it was no longer possible for them to extort Android device manufacturers with patent licensing.

beefhash 6y ago

How long until the patents expire?

loeg 6y ago
~2009 + 20 years. You've got a long time to wait if you're not part of OIN. They're arguably invalid patents, in the sense that the filesystems concepts within are not remotely novel and the application to FAT is trivial and obvious.
- ComputerGuru 6y ago
  Released 2006, actually. Shipped with WinCE 6.0.
  - loeg 6y ago
    Doesn't matter when the code shipped, only when the patents were applied for. The application date on the later patents is 2009. https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/040789901/publication/US2009164539A1?q=pn%3DUS8606830 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0407899... https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/040789823/publication/US2009164440A1?q=pn%3DUS8321439 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0407898...
    - toast0 6y ago
      In a sense, it doesn't matter if the patents are valid or not, but isn't the rule that you have to apply within one year of making the invention available, and shouldn't including it in a release count for that? (Maybe that rule changed with the big changes around first to file and expiration based on application instead of grant date.)
      - rayiner 6y ago
        No, you are correct. Publicly shipping the product that implements the invention starts the clock. But here, the parents claim priority to an application filed in 2004. (That means the invention was disclosed in that earlier application, even if it wasn’t specifically claimed.) When you claim priority like that, your 20 years starts running from the earliest priority date. So the patents expire in 2024.

pjmlp 6y ago

Around here there are plenty of Android phones and tablets with SD card slots to chose from.

fierarul 6y ago

I agree. It's a token gesture. Even if you do have SD card slots android offers to extends storage to that, which I think means it formats the card as EXT4 or something. Maybe TV manufacturers care about this, but in mobile it's a non-event. Maybe Microsoft could open-source MSDOS in order for FreeDOS to have a rejuvenating moment.

compsciphd 6y ago
well, they have for early versions of msdos[1], though probably anything less than 3.3 only has historical value to anyone. [1] https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS
- fierarul 6y ago
  Yes, they like to do these kind of things in the name of loving open source nowadays. Also open sourced a 40 year old BASIC implementation which can only be good for a Computer Museum display. MSDOS 6.0 might be interesting. Windows 3.1 too.
  - danieldk 6y ago
    MSDOS 6.0 might be interesting. Windows 3.1 too. And MS-DOS 4.0/4.1, not to be confused with 4.00/4.01, which had multi-tasking features: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS_4.0_(multitasking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS_4.0_(multitasking)

asveikau 6y ago

> after smartphones dropped all SD card slots Last I checked, only at the high end and Google devices, and substantially less true in non-US markets. Careful with proclaiming such a bubble to be universal. I am sure in mountain view some PMs make decisions based on "oh but we killed the SD card years ago" but they don't have actual power to do that.

easytiger 6y ago
You can also plug any USB stick into most androids
solarkraft 6y ago
It's fun to see bubble-driven remarks like "no phones have SD card slots anymore" or "there are no headphone jacks on phones nowadays". Welp, you can influence that and I won't buy a phone without either.
- fdgbd23 6y ago
  >I won't buy a phone without either You used to be able to say the same for phones without holes in their screen or TV sets without internet connectivity.
  - asveikau 6y ago
    Or a phone with a removable battery. I am personally disappointed by that one. A lot of phones are skimping on internal batteries these days and it kills the life of the phone fairly quickly. The previous phone I had, since I had been burned repeatedly by phones I was otherwise happy with but the internal battery didn't last a year, I decided to shop around for the few remaining Android phones with decent performance that had an easily replaceable battery. I had to pick a model from late 2016.
    - tadfisher 6y ago
      It's more the ubiquitous and uncontrollable fast-charging that kills batteries. I would love for charging power controls baked into Android, as I know there are one or two manufacturers who have them (ASUS and Sony?).

aries1980 6y ago

Camera/camcorder makers are huge market, and they use Linux internally. E.g. Sony's stuff: https://oss.sony.net/Products/Linux/ https://oss.sony.net/Products/Linux/

exikyut 6y ago
What a fastidiously/meticulously organized wall of text. I want the picture book version :(

amelius 6y ago

Patents should not be allowed on communication protocols and storage formats, or anything with lock-in potential really.

kchr 6y ago
Hear hear!

magicalhippo 6y ago

> after smartphones dropped all SD card slots So companies like Samsung[1], Sony[2], Motorola[3], Xiaomi[4] and LG[5] don't make smartphones anymore? [1]: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s20-10081.php https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s20-10081.php [2]: https://www.gsmarena.com/sony_xperia_1_ii-10096.php https://www.gsmarena.com/sony_xperia_1_ii-10096.php [3]: https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_edge-10133.php https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_edge-10133.php [4]: https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_mi_a3-9769.php https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_mi_a3-9769.php [5]: https://www.gsmarena.com/lg_k61-10088.php https://www.gsmarena.com/lg_k61-10088.php