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Switzerland is even more orderly. As a German, if you travel to Switzerland you feel like people from other nations feel when they come to Germany. Especially f

by est31 6y ago

Switzerland is even more orderly. As a German, if you travel to Switzerland you feel like people from other nations feel when they come to Germany. Especially far more cleaner.

throw0101a 6y ago
Where does Japan fall on this spectrum?
- blondin 6y ago
  right, that's all i had in mind reading all these comments...
- wenc 6y ago
  I've been to Germany and Japan many times, and my impression is that while the Germans tend toward orderliness (rule-abiding), the Japanese tend toward perfectionism (details). As a foreigner, it was fascinating to observe how systems in each country manifest these attributes. From what I observed (and I could be all wrong here), Germans have "opinionated" systems where everybody understands and follows the rules, even if sometimes the system itself doesn't always make sense. Deviation is not well tolerated (except perhaps in bohemian places like Berlin -- or that's what I've been told). The Japanese tend to have systems that assiduously accommodates humans. They drive compliance through coaxing rather than coercion. The systems tolerates, even accounts for, deviations from the norm. It's like they've thought of everything, and try to make things as convenient as possible. These differences are obvious when comparing trains/subways in Germany and Japan. German and Japanese cars also exhibit this difference. German cars generally have opinionated designs (the opinion of the designer trumps the opinions of the users). They're fun to drive but generally require the owners to follow a strict maintenance schedule without deviation, otherwise the car will fail prematurely. Japanese cars on the other hand are often designed for owner negligence and can accommodate all kinds of abuse while still continuing to chug along (especially Toyotas), contributing to the notion that Japanese cars are super reliable, when in fact they're simply designed for variation.
  - tasogare 6y ago
    > The Japanese tend to have systems that assiduously accommodates humans. [...] The systems tolerates, even accounts for, deviations from the norm. That’s totally untrue. The systems here don’t allow for any, even the slightest, deviation. If that means crushing a life, well, that life will be crushed. Personal anecdote: I was registered at the university and had to change my status. I had to submit a complete application (despite my data already being somewhere in their system). I was missing certified copy of my master degree. I had the original one but they wouldn’t make copies themselves (impossible to forge) because there was nothing about it in rulebook. Finally I was able the register thanks to a paper certifying I passed a master degree in another totally unrelated field! Hopefully the rulebook didn’t state that the master degree one graduated from had to do anything with the PhD one is entering! This whole story is wrong on so many level. I was lucky this time, but that’s not always the case for everyone.
    - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
      As usual, reality is somewhere between these two extremes. I'll posit a halfway: Japanese life is indeed bound by strictly observed rules and regulations divorced from common sense, but Japanese bureaucrats tend to also know how to navigate these thickets to get stuff done. One thing I've often seen in Japanese offices is the "form to the form", instructing applicants in extreme detail how to fill out the actual form, so it will be accepted on the first try.
      - qohen 6y ago
        I happened to recently read this blog post [0] by Patrick MacKenzie's (i.e. HN's own patio11) which, among other things, covers some of his early time in Japan. Part of it shows how things can work out -- towards the end, he relates how he wanted to get a credit card but he couldn't -- there was an official reason but, unofficially, because he was a foreigner. But then a co-worker put him in touch with a bank manager he'd gone to school with who took care of him and kept up a connection with him for an extended period of time (the story, and the stuff that follows, is interesting, as is the whole blog post, for that matter, if you're interested in how business and startups work in Japan, at least as of 2014). https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan...
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Japanese order is severely overhyped in most Western analyses. Women routinely get groped in public, organized crime is a big deal, and political campaigns drive around residential streets with truck-mounted megaphones. I'm not saying it's a bad country, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't match the crystal-pure image a lot of people seem to have.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I think that’s attacking a straw man. Head down to Ginza and watch how people don’t jay walk even though the cross walks are blocks apart. Then do the same thing on Fifth Avenue where people can’t be arsed to get to the cross walk that’s on every block. I don’t think anyone thinks Japan is perfect, but the contrast is stark.
    - andrepd 6y ago
      I think it's precisely that. Beneath the superficial (your jaywalking example), lies an ugly reality.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- rramadass 6y ago
  See the series of Youtube videos "Life where i am From" (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqwxJts-6yF33rupyF_DCsA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqwxJts-6yF33rupyF_DCsA) by a Canadian who moved to Japan. There is much that other countries can learn from Japan while steering clear of its faults.
dhosek 6y ago
My only experience with Switzerland was a layover on my way to Prague. I expected things to be super-orderly there but found the airport to be dirty and disorganized (the bathroom was memorably disgusting).
azernik 6y ago
Israelis call the Swiss "more German than the Germans".
- seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  I don’t think those in French speaking Switzerland would agree.
  - azernik 6y ago
    Even the French speakers embody all the German stereotypes more than the Germans.
nine_k 6y ago
My Swiss friends call German-speaking cantons of Switzerland "Germany done right". (Like trains arriving on time, etc.)

by est31 6y ago

Switzerland is even more orderly. As a German, if you travel to Switzerland you feel like people from other nations feel when they come to Germany. Especially far more cleaner.

throw0101a 6y ago

Where does Japan fall on this spectrum?

blondin 6y ago
right, that's all i had in mind reading all these comments...
wenc 6y ago
I've been to Germany and Japan many times, and my impression is that while the Germans tend toward orderliness (rule-abiding), the Japanese tend toward perfectionism (details). As a foreigner, it was fascinating to observe how systems in each country manifest these attributes. From what I observed (and I could be all wrong here), Germans have "opinionated" systems where everybody understands and follows the rules, even if sometimes the system itself doesn't always make sense. Deviation is not well tolerated (except perhaps in bohemian places like Berlin -- or that's what I've been told). The Japanese tend to have systems that assiduously accommodates humans. They drive compliance through coaxing rather than coercion. The systems tolerates, even accounts for, deviations from the norm. It's like they've thought of everything, and try to make things as convenient as possible. These differences are obvious when comparing trains/subways in Germany and Japan. German and Japanese cars also exhibit this difference. German cars generally have opinionated designs (the opinion of the designer trumps the opinions of the users). They're fun to drive but generally require the owners to follow a strict maintenance schedule without deviation, otherwise the car will fail prematurely. Japanese cars on the other hand are often designed for owner negligence and can accommodate all kinds of abuse while still continuing to chug along (especially Toyotas), contributing to the notion that Japanese cars are super reliable, when in fact they're simply designed for variation.
- tasogare 6y ago
  > The Japanese tend to have systems that assiduously accommodates humans. [...] The systems tolerates, even accounts for, deviations from the norm. That’s totally untrue. The systems here don’t allow for any, even the slightest, deviation. If that means crushing a life, well, that life will be crushed. Personal anecdote: I was registered at the university and had to change my status. I had to submit a complete application (despite my data already being somewhere in their system). I was missing certified copy of my master degree. I had the original one but they wouldn’t make copies themselves (impossible to forge) because there was nothing about it in rulebook. Finally I was able the register thanks to a paper certifying I passed a master degree in another totally unrelated field! Hopefully the rulebook didn’t state that the master degree one graduated from had to do anything with the PhD one is entering! This whole story is wrong on so many level. I was lucky this time, but that’s not always the case for everyone.
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
    As usual, reality is somewhere between these two extremes. I'll posit a halfway: Japanese life is indeed bound by strictly observed rules and regulations divorced from common sense, but Japanese bureaucrats tend to also know how to navigate these thickets to get stuff done. One thing I've often seen in Japanese offices is the "form to the form", instructing applicants in extreme detail how to fill out the actual form, so it will be accepted on the first try.
    - qohen 6y ago
      I happened to recently read this blog post [0] by Patrick MacKenzie's (i.e. HN's own patio11) which, among other things, covers some of his early time in Japan. Part of it shows how things can work out -- towards the end, he relates how he wanted to get a credit card but he couldn't -- there was an official reason but, unofficially, because he was a foreigner. But then a co-worker put him in touch with a bank manager he'd gone to school with who took care of him and kept up a connection with him for an extended period of time (the story, and the stuff that follows, is interesting, as is the whole blog post, for that matter, if you're interested in how business and startups work in Japan, at least as of 2014). https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan...
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Japanese order is severely overhyped in most Western analyses. Women routinely get groped in public, organized crime is a big deal, and political campaigns drive around residential streets with truck-mounted megaphones. I'm not saying it's a bad country, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't match the crystal-pure image a lot of people seem to have.
- rayiner 6y ago
  I think that’s attacking a straw man. Head down to Ginza and watch how people don’t jay walk even though the cross walks are blocks apart. Then do the same thing on Fifth Avenue where people can’t be arsed to get to the cross walk that’s on every block. I don’t think anyone thinks Japan is perfect, but the contrast is stark.
  - andrepd 6y ago
    I think it's precisely that. Beneath the superficial (your jaywalking example), lies an ugly reality.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
rramadass 6y ago
See the series of Youtube videos "Life where i am From" (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqwxJts-6yF33rupyF_DCsA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqwxJts-6yF33rupyF_DCsA) by a Canadian who moved to Japan. There is much that other countries can learn from Japan while steering clear of its faults.

dhosek 6y ago

My only experience with Switzerland was a layover on my way to Prague. I expected things to be super-orderly there but found the airport to be dirty and disorganized (the bathroom was memorably disgusting).

azernik 6y ago

Israelis call the Swiss "more German than the Germans".

seanmcdirmid 6y ago
I don’t think those in French speaking Switzerland would agree.
- azernik 6y ago
  Even the French speakers embody all the German stereotypes more than the Germans.

nine_k 6y ago

My Swiss friends call German-speaking cantons of Switzerland "Germany done right". (Like trains arriving on time, etc.)