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> The study also found that IQ had a significant relationship with change in symptom severity. Children with higher IQs were more likely to show a reduction in

> The study also found that IQ had a significant relationship with change in symptom severity. Children with higher IQs were more likely to show a reduction in ASD symptoms. This is important information. People of higher intelligence would be more likely to learn things, such as how to mask effectively. I learned to mask so well that most people are shocked to learn that I'm autistic. It takes about 6 months of constant exposure for someone to get creeped out and dislike me, to the point that I wonder if I've done myself a disservice with my masking habit.

scandox 6y ago
Presumably they're creeped out because they believe your emotional responses are simulated and that your engagement in phatic discourse is inauthentic? But how they can they tell the difference? And even if they can how do they know that this isn't also true of everybody else, only that others are superior fakers? How can they even know that their own responses are authentic? I ask because I'm really not sure about this in my own mind.
- krageon 6y ago
  Being "creeped out" is mostly a function of instinct. It's something you feel in your gut (or wherever instinct lives for you). This means that if you do not have it, it's hard to explain. The questions you are asking sort of miss the point, there's plenty of ways people can explain their instinct but at the end of the day it's not really a conscious process. If you don't have the same instincts as some people have, I suppose it would be natural to end up with the questions you do. What's important to remember is that they don't have the answers either. If you really want an explanation that may or may not be true, in my personal experience I can tell that things are simulated or inauthentic unless (as you say) they're being simulated by an extremely competent actor (in the sense that they are acting). Even with people who act very competently, there are always (at least, I've never met an exception) small indicators over time that feel a little wrong. You can't act 24/7, so the longer people interact with you (if you are acting) the more likely it is they'll see you slip up. This isn't really a problem, as the experience of getting to know someone naturally tends to lead to you seeing them in an entirely different light. The trick is figuring out when to show some authentic drive of yourself and when to present a socially desirable composite. That trick is something you learn by making a lot of mistakes (or if there's some rule to it, I have no idea what it is). If you don't consciously stop acting at some point and people see through it on their own, then it becomes creepy. The ideal is to head that off and figure out together if you are compatible personality types.
- cmehdy 6y ago
  That might be what creeps out people more so than the apparent inauthenticity: the realization that their own behaviour might be in no way different from what they perceive as constructed. This poses questions about self, "soul", and "what is real".
- kstenerud 6y ago
  In my attempts to discover the secret behind perfect social interaction, people I've spoken to have been unable to explain exactly how they do it. It seems reasonable to assume that the brains of social animals are specially tuned to learn social interaction quickly, as such individuals would more quickly form a cohesive group with better survival potential (historically speaking). The question of authenticity, though interesting philosophically speaking, I think can be safely downgraded to simply "how it works in practice". Most people seem to do it out of some sort of instinct, and most people really are telegraphing their true feelings and intentions to varying degrees.
  - scandox 6y ago
    Well unfortunately there are people that can perfectly conceal their true feelings and intentions. Perhaps they are the ones that you need to interview. Though I suppose by definition they won't be very forthcoming.
    - kstenerud 6y ago
      That's actually an interesting topic in itself. It's been observed that many sociopaths and psychopaths don't spend long on one person. I wonder if it's because they eventually give off enough tells that others start to notice...
      - ChuckMcM 6y ago
        That has been my experience with people I know who exhibit sociopathic tendencies. One of the more interesting tells is a projection onto people who can see that they are pretending.
        selimthegrim 6y ago
        What do you mean? That they call them psychopaths?
        6y ago
- tw000001 6y ago
  Normal people are extremely sensitive to deviations from social norms. There's even a word for it, "coolness" and more modern derivatives. Human social interactions are extremely complex, both verbal and otherwise, and people will subconsciously become uncomfortable or disinterested when people deviate too far from patterns. The weird kids get bullied because they are legitimately weird. But pretending to be normal is difficult and tiring and inevitably you say or do enough unusual stuff that you give off weird "vibes". And what we call "bad vibes" are often just people picking up subconsciously on subtle abnormal behaviors. I doubt that 90% of the population has actually considered any of this from an introspective perspective. Asperger's is simultaneously obvious and invisible. And doubly difficult because the rules we are supposed to follow are abstract and unspoken, exactly the kind of ideas with which autism makes people struggle.
  - alexandercrohde 6y ago
    I really like this idea. I agree the average person responds to unusual behavior with the same innate revulsion we fee to a physical deformity (perhaps to a lesser degree). However I think both revulsions do dissipate with time. I think what doesn't dissipate, is the distaste for when somebody doesn't follow important and healthy social codes. For example, there's a stereotype of "nerds" pedantically interrupting everybody to correct minor or irrelevant details ("um actually..."). Now, stereotype aside, this type of behavior is genuinely offputting and counterproductive. To a large extent I think "coolness" is the ability to keep the conversation flowing when a potentially emotional topic gets invoked. The opposite is that person who has a certain trigger-word, where if it ever shows up in passing, derails the whole conversation on a 1-man tirade. In summary, I find a lot of what makes a good conversational isn't following arbitrary norms of the era, but a strong empathy/understanding for the emotional effect of every topic and bouncing between those emotional states with grace.
    - tw000001 6y ago
      >In summary, I find a lot of what makes a good conversational isn't following arbitrary norms of the era, but a strong empathy/understanding for the emotional effect of every topic and bouncing between those emotional states with grace. I think the problem is that norms actually encode this information - it's not just empathy and understanding, it's empathy and understanding that is appropriate as per the zeitgeist. The normal range of responses is entirely defined by local culture and not only is this the kind of implicit, abstract set of ideas that autism can make difficult to learn, but this discussion itself is also a social grey area which is only appropriate with a minority of people; and then only if they're already familiar and comfortable with you. When you lack internal boundaries, it is difficult to navigate those of others when they are not communicated to you explicitly.
- watwut 6y ago
  > Presumably they're creeped out because they believe your emotional responses are simulated and that your engagement in phatic discourse is inauthentic? Why would you assume that? While it is theoretical possibility, there are many more other possibilities in play.
  - scandox 6y ago
    Well that's why I put a question mark on the end. It was my best guess.
    - watwut 6y ago
      I would not expect it to be authenticity and complicated philosophy or self. It may simply be, that communicating with autistic takes much more effort from neurotypical people, is more frustrating. Eventually they stop trying and putting that effort on. Just as communicating with other is tiring for autistic, except neurotypicals have plenty of neurotypicals around to communicate with. I dont really want to guess, knowing nothing about parent. But the issues in communication with different functional autistic people I had observed that broke it down where things related to social interactions. For example, inability to imagine yourself in other peoples situation can make autistic look selfish and unfair (when enforcing rules for example). It also makes it hard to impossible to strike compromise as opponents situation is not taken into account by autistic and is perceived as "illogical". Autistic can be overstepping boundaries without really knowing, making people uncomfortable as they have to defend those boundaries. Can be insulting or controlling without having bad intention, which forces other people to react to it in "defense" or leave for own sanity.
      - loopz 6y ago
        It can also be a superpower, to raise issues across boundaries that most people give up and submit to silently. If you're wrong, the backlash prevents much damage and everyone learns something "new". In many cases, the boundaries are self-sabotage and immaturity, ie. org silos.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  Although I will of course from time to time entertain such thoughts in most cases I will just assume responses are authentic, due to Ockham's razor, and I suppose most people probably assume authenticity as well, thus when they suspect inauthenticity they get creeped out.
- dougmwne 6y ago
  It's sort of like telepathy, seriously. On Star Trek, there was Deanna Troi who was empathic, telepathic with emotions only. I actually think it goes even beyond feeling to thought as well. We are extremely sensitive to the inner mental lives of others and respond both consciously and unconsciously. It takes a sociopath or an extremely practiced actor to fool us. For the vast number of people, we can read their inner mental states as easily and effortlessly as reading a roadsign, even if they don't want to be read and are trying to hide their true feelings or opinions. Children are especially easy to read, which is why they can't hide anything from their parents. And since we can almost all do this, many conversations, especially work conversations exhibit a sort of continuous doublespeak where there's what I say and what I mean and I can't tell you what I mean outright since it would be rude or unprofessional but I know you know what I mean. But when I notice someone on the spectrum, I start speaking explicitly with the understanding that the content of what I say will be much more important then what I'm feeling.
  - bsder 6y ago
    > We are extremely sensitive to the inner mental lives of others and respond both consciously and unconsciously. This is so wrong it's hilarious. Humans are terrible at ascribing meaning to what other people do. It even spawned a saying: "We judge others by what they do; we judge ourselves by what we intend." As such, we, as humans, generally have zero idea what is going on in someone else's brain when they do something unexpected (it is unexpected after all). An individual has to work very hard to "cut others slack" under most conditions. Unfortunately, there are quite a few bad social actors nowadays who attempt to take advantage of that, and there don't seem to be quite as many people who will take those bad actors on.
    - walleeee 6y ago
      I don't think it's really wrong to say most are sensitive to external indications of others' internal experience. Simultaneously, as you point out, we're often pretty bad at inferring intentions from this information. But we have much more than zero idea what's going on, in most cases; the amount we know and our level of certainty could be viewed as a function of cultural context, group cohesion, cooperation/competition under stress, individual differences, power dynamics, social norms, etc. > It even spawned a saying: "We judge others by what they do; we judge ourselves by what we intend." There is much evidence for an effect like this in social psychology, commonly called the fundamental attribution error.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  Not an expert but have friends and subordinates who have had this problem. I also help care for a stroke victim, and the “inauthentic” issue reminds me of the motor planning problems that are brought on by strokes. Sometimes novel situations create lags in response time, confusion or time to think about a response. It’s especially hard with very sarcastic people or people who purposefully being assholes.
polytely 6y ago
This mirrors my experience, I can pass for neurotypical I guess, but in new social situations I have to put in a lot of effort to figure out what behavior people expect from me. I guess it's great that I can blend into society but there is always the feeling that I'm just pretending to be a normal person. I feel that I've figured out how to be pleasant person to work with but sustaining deeper relationships feels almost impossible. It kinda sucks being smart enough to realize what you are missing out on.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  People are different, and some types are more frequent than others. Another important thing is social skills. If you have poor social skills, you will have problem connecting even with your type. If you have good social skills, you can find "harmony" with your type, and "cooperation" with other types. The problem is that no amount of social skills will translate the "cooperation" into "harmony". At best it will make you a perfect social chameleon. Therefore, people who belong to a frequent type need to learn social skills, but people who belong to an infrequent type need to learn social skills and then spend of lot of time searching for other people of the same type. This is further complicated by the fact that people of the infrequent type often need to pretend to be someone else, in order to avoid social punishment. But if they pretend to be someone else, and the people they are looking for also pretend to be someone else for similar reasons, that makes it even more difficult to find each other. Also it takes some maturity to understand what exactly your type is. Meanwhile, people of the frequent types will keep telling you "actually, all you need is to start doing things that I like to do; look at me, I have plenty of friends and social success!"
didibus 6y ago
Hope you don't mind me asking this. How would you describe your normal behavior versus your masked behavior? What's different between the two?
- kstenerud 6y ago
  That's sort of the problem. I don't have a solid baseline to work against. I observe certain behaviors like facial expressions (smiling convincingly is especially difficult), discussions about irrelevant things (except that they serve a social function), looking into someone's eyes (very difficult), certain postures that have meaning (you're bored, you're angry, you're... something) . It's a lot to keep straight in your head (both in your own exhibited behavior and observing and translating other peoples' behaviors), and if you have to think about these things consciously, it's exhausting.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Eyes! Eyes! Is what I tell my 13 year old daughter. But she is far more comfortable looking away while in conversation. The theory that has resonated most with me is that both facial interpretations and language processing are very cerebral processor intensive. Turning off your facial tracking algorithm by looking away frees more brain nodes to help with processing and thinking about what you are hearing and saying. So I’m torn. Do I continually push her to look at faces during conversations, because over time it will build up more efficient neural pathways for that kind of processing? Or is it just something unique about her I can’t change and I am just causing her unresolvable stress?
    - wirrbel 6y ago
      > Or is it just something unique about her I can’t change and I am just causing her unresolvable stress? Why don't you let her decide?
      - valuearb 6y ago
        Because that’s not parenting? This may be an unpopular truth in today’s world, but sometimes you need to make your kids do or try things they are resistant to in hopes it gives them skills to better succeed when they are adults.
mattigames 6y ago
Second guessing behaviors that left a livelong impact on your life is the most human thing there is so I wouldn't overthink it, and I'm glad you can articulate your thoughts and have a drive to share them on platforms such as this one.
juped 6y ago
I'm something non-neurotypical (no idea what), and I'm only able to speak by brute-forcing it (I compose a script for what to say, and then say it, and ideally this happens in a reasonable time). If I thought a bit slower, I would probably just be nonverbal; in many respects, I am.
TrinaryWorksToo 6y ago
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31215791/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31215791/ > The Misnomer of 'High Functioning Autism': Intelligence Is an Imprecise Predictor of Functional Abilities at Diagnosis It has been found previously to not be correlative. Can someone give insight into this discrepency?
- cbhl 6y ago
  Presumably "requires further study", but one thing that comes to mind is that the linked study looks at early childhood (ages 3-6) whereas the study you linked considers a wider range of ages (1-18).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
woodandsteel 6y ago
How specifically are you imitating a neurotypical person? Like are you pretending to be compassionate when you're not? And what specifically is it about you that creeps people out when they discover it?
glitchc 6y ago
Am sorry to hear that they dislike you. At the risk of sounding extremely insensitive, can you share more? I ask because I'm mildly Asperger's myself.
- kstenerud 6y ago
  I'm not really sure what else there is to share. It generally goes like this: - I meet someone, or start a new job, or some such thing. - People are friendly and everything seems fine for about 6 months to a year. After that, things get weird quickly, like they throw a switch or something. Either one person starts saying rude things to me and the rest either sit back or join in, or a group of soon-to-be-ex-friends gang up on me suddenly (happened a lot in school), and then very quickly I'm ejected from the group. This happens both socially and professionally. I've also lost jobs this way, where I'd be fired with them refusing to give a reason, or pushed out via some technicality so that they can just have me gone. My close friends and family tell me that I'm not being mean or condescending or rude or an asshole (I've had many observe me just to be sure), so there's something else going on. And asking the people involved hasn't worked because they won't tell me.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
stretchwithme 6y ago
I think that's also true of schizophrenia. Like the main character in A Beautiful Mind, John Nash, my brother was able to discern what was hallucination and what wasn't. The less intelligent a person is, the more difficult that must be.
lilyball 6y ago
I learned how to mask so effectively that I didn’t even realize I’m autistic until literally a few weeks ago (I’m in my 30s). It doesn’t help that the pop culture idea of autism is really what’s often called “boy autism”[1] and “girl autism” is a lot more subtle. I’m trying to dismantle some of my masking now, because it feels a hell of a lot better to stop suppressing my natural inclinations and it’s helping me deal with my social anxiety. [1]: Note: “boy autism” and “girl autism” are really misnomers, “boy autism” can occur in girls and “girl autism” can occur in boys.

scandox 6y ago

Presumably they're creeped out because they believe your emotional responses are simulated and that your engagement in phatic discourse is inauthentic? But how they can they tell the difference? And even if they can how do they know that this isn't also true of everybody else, only that others are superior fakers? How can they even know that their own responses are authentic? I ask because I'm really not sure about this in my own mind.

krageon 6y ago
Being "creeped out" is mostly a function of instinct. It's something you feel in your gut (or wherever instinct lives for you). This means that if you do not have it, it's hard to explain. The questions you are asking sort of miss the point, there's plenty of ways people can explain their instinct but at the end of the day it's not really a conscious process. If you don't have the same instincts as some people have, I suppose it would be natural to end up with the questions you do. What's important to remember is that they don't have the answers either. If you really want an explanation that may or may not be true, in my personal experience I can tell that things are simulated or inauthentic unless (as you say) they're being simulated by an extremely competent actor (in the sense that they are acting). Even with people who act very competently, there are always (at least, I've never met an exception) small indicators over time that feel a little wrong. You can't act 24/7, so the longer people interact with you (if you are acting) the more likely it is they'll see you slip up. This isn't really a problem, as the experience of getting to know someone naturally tends to lead to you seeing them in an entirely different light. The trick is figuring out when to show some authentic drive of yourself and when to present a socially desirable composite. That trick is something you learn by making a lot of mistakes (or if there's some rule to it, I have no idea what it is). If you don't consciously stop acting at some point and people see through it on their own, then it becomes creepy. The ideal is to head that off and figure out together if you are compatible personality types.
cmehdy 6y ago
That might be what creeps out people more so than the apparent inauthenticity: the realization that their own behaviour might be in no way different from what they perceive as constructed. This poses questions about self, "soul", and "what is real".
kstenerud 6y ago
In my attempts to discover the secret behind perfect social interaction, people I've spoken to have been unable to explain exactly how they do it. It seems reasonable to assume that the brains of social animals are specially tuned to learn social interaction quickly, as such individuals would more quickly form a cohesive group with better survival potential (historically speaking). The question of authenticity, though interesting philosophically speaking, I think can be safely downgraded to simply "how it works in practice". Most people seem to do it out of some sort of instinct, and most people really are telegraphing their true feelings and intentions to varying degrees.
- scandox 6y ago
  Well unfortunately there are people that can perfectly conceal their true feelings and intentions. Perhaps they are the ones that you need to interview. Though I suppose by definition they won't be very forthcoming.
  - kstenerud 6y ago
    That's actually an interesting topic in itself. It's been observed that many sociopaths and psychopaths don't spend long on one person. I wonder if it's because they eventually give off enough tells that others start to notice...
    - ChuckMcM 6y ago
      That has been my experience with people I know who exhibit sociopathic tendencies. One of the more interesting tells is a projection onto people who can see that they are pretending.
      - selimthegrim 6y ago
        What do you mean? That they call them psychopaths?
        6y ago
tw000001 6y ago
Normal people are extremely sensitive to deviations from social norms. There's even a word for it, "coolness" and more modern derivatives. Human social interactions are extremely complex, both verbal and otherwise, and people will subconsciously become uncomfortable or disinterested when people deviate too far from patterns. The weird kids get bullied because they are legitimately weird. But pretending to be normal is difficult and tiring and inevitably you say or do enough unusual stuff that you give off weird "vibes". And what we call "bad vibes" are often just people picking up subconsciously on subtle abnormal behaviors. I doubt that 90% of the population has actually considered any of this from an introspective perspective. Asperger's is simultaneously obvious and invisible. And doubly difficult because the rules we are supposed to follow are abstract and unspoken, exactly the kind of ideas with which autism makes people struggle.
- alexandercrohde 6y ago
  I really like this idea. I agree the average person responds to unusual behavior with the same innate revulsion we fee to a physical deformity (perhaps to a lesser degree). However I think both revulsions do dissipate with time. I think what doesn't dissipate, is the distaste for when somebody doesn't follow important and healthy social codes. For example, there's a stereotype of "nerds" pedantically interrupting everybody to correct minor or irrelevant details ("um actually..."). Now, stereotype aside, this type of behavior is genuinely offputting and counterproductive. To a large extent I think "coolness" is the ability to keep the conversation flowing when a potentially emotional topic gets invoked. The opposite is that person who has a certain trigger-word, where if it ever shows up in passing, derails the whole conversation on a 1-man tirade. In summary, I find a lot of what makes a good conversational isn't following arbitrary norms of the era, but a strong empathy/understanding for the emotional effect of every topic and bouncing between those emotional states with grace.
  - tw000001 6y ago
    >In summary, I find a lot of what makes a good conversational isn't following arbitrary norms of the era, but a strong empathy/understanding for the emotional effect of every topic and bouncing between those emotional states with grace. I think the problem is that norms actually encode this information - it's not just empathy and understanding, it's empathy and understanding that is appropriate as per the zeitgeist. The normal range of responses is entirely defined by local culture and not only is this the kind of implicit, abstract set of ideas that autism can make difficult to learn, but this discussion itself is also a social grey area which is only appropriate with a minority of people; and then only if they're already familiar and comfortable with you. When you lack internal boundaries, it is difficult to navigate those of others when they are not communicated to you explicitly.
watwut 6y ago
> Presumably they're creeped out because they believe your emotional responses are simulated and that your engagement in phatic discourse is inauthentic? Why would you assume that? While it is theoretical possibility, there are many more other possibilities in play.
- scandox 6y ago
  Well that's why I put a question mark on the end. It was my best guess.
  - watwut 6y ago
    I would not expect it to be authenticity and complicated philosophy or self. It may simply be, that communicating with autistic takes much more effort from neurotypical people, is more frustrating. Eventually they stop trying and putting that effort on. Just as communicating with other is tiring for autistic, except neurotypicals have plenty of neurotypicals around to communicate with. I dont really want to guess, knowing nothing about parent. But the issues in communication with different functional autistic people I had observed that broke it down where things related to social interactions. For example, inability to imagine yourself in other peoples situation can make autistic look selfish and unfair (when enforcing rules for example). It also makes it hard to impossible to strike compromise as opponents situation is not taken into account by autistic and is perceived as "illogical". Autistic can be overstepping boundaries without really knowing, making people uncomfortable as they have to defend those boundaries. Can be insulting or controlling without having bad intention, which forces other people to react to it in "defense" or leave for own sanity.
    - loopz 6y ago
      It can also be a superpower, to raise issues across boundaries that most people give up and submit to silently. If you're wrong, the backlash prevents much damage and everyone learns something "new". In many cases, the boundaries are self-sabotage and immaturity, ie. org silos.
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
Although I will of course from time to time entertain such thoughts in most cases I will just assume responses are authentic, due to Ockham's razor, and I suppose most people probably assume authenticity as well, thus when they suspect inauthenticity they get creeped out.
dougmwne 6y ago
It's sort of like telepathy, seriously. On Star Trek, there was Deanna Troi who was empathic, telepathic with emotions only. I actually think it goes even beyond feeling to thought as well. We are extremely sensitive to the inner mental lives of others and respond both consciously and unconsciously. It takes a sociopath or an extremely practiced actor to fool us. For the vast number of people, we can read their inner mental states as easily and effortlessly as reading a roadsign, even if they don't want to be read and are trying to hide their true feelings or opinions. Children are especially easy to read, which is why they can't hide anything from their parents. And since we can almost all do this, many conversations, especially work conversations exhibit a sort of continuous doublespeak where there's what I say and what I mean and I can't tell you what I mean outright since it would be rude or unprofessional but I know you know what I mean. But when I notice someone on the spectrum, I start speaking explicitly with the understanding that the content of what I say will be much more important then what I'm feeling.
- bsder 6y ago
  > We are extremely sensitive to the inner mental lives of others and respond both consciously and unconsciously. This is so wrong it's hilarious. Humans are terrible at ascribing meaning to what other people do. It even spawned a saying: "We judge others by what they do; we judge ourselves by what we intend." As such, we, as humans, generally have zero idea what is going on in someone else's brain when they do something unexpected (it is unexpected after all). An individual has to work very hard to "cut others slack" under most conditions. Unfortunately, there are quite a few bad social actors nowadays who attempt to take advantage of that, and there don't seem to be quite as many people who will take those bad actors on.
  - walleeee 6y ago
    I don't think it's really wrong to say most are sensitive to external indications of others' internal experience. Simultaneously, as you point out, we're often pretty bad at inferring intentions from this information. But we have much more than zero idea what's going on, in most cases; the amount we know and our level of certainty could be viewed as a function of cultural context, group cohesion, cooperation/competition under stress, individual differences, power dynamics, social norms, etc. > It even spawned a saying: "We judge others by what they do; we judge ourselves by what we intend." There is much evidence for an effect like this in social psychology, commonly called the fundamental attribution error.
Spooky23 6y ago
Not an expert but have friends and subordinates who have had this problem. I also help care for a stroke victim, and the “inauthentic” issue reminds me of the motor planning problems that are brought on by strokes. Sometimes novel situations create lags in response time, confusion or time to think about a response. It’s especially hard with very sarcastic people or people who purposefully being assholes.

polytely 6y ago

This mirrors my experience, I can pass for neurotypical I guess, but in new social situations I have to put in a lot of effort to figure out what behavior people expect from me. I guess it's great that I can blend into society but there is always the feeling that I'm just pretending to be a normal person. I feel that I've figured out how to be pleasant person to work with but sustaining deeper relationships feels almost impossible. It kinda sucks being smart enough to realize what you are missing out on.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Viliam1234 6y ago
People are different, and some types are more frequent than others. Another important thing is social skills. If you have poor social skills, you will have problem connecting even with your type. If you have good social skills, you can find "harmony" with your type, and "cooperation" with other types. The problem is that no amount of social skills will translate the "cooperation" into "harmony". At best it will make you a perfect social chameleon. Therefore, people who belong to a frequent type need to learn social skills, but people who belong to an infrequent type need to learn social skills and then spend of lot of time searching for other people of the same type. This is further complicated by the fact that people of the infrequent type often need to pretend to be someone else, in order to avoid social punishment. But if they pretend to be someone else, and the people they are looking for also pretend to be someone else for similar reasons, that makes it even more difficult to find each other. Also it takes some maturity to understand what exactly your type is. Meanwhile, people of the frequent types will keep telling you "actually, all you need is to start doing things that I like to do; look at me, I have plenty of friends and social success!"

didibus 6y ago

Hope you don't mind me asking this. How would you describe your normal behavior versus your masked behavior? What's different between the two?

kstenerud 6y ago
That's sort of the problem. I don't have a solid baseline to work against. I observe certain behaviors like facial expressions (smiling convincingly is especially difficult), discussions about irrelevant things (except that they serve a social function), looking into someone's eyes (very difficult), certain postures that have meaning (you're bored, you're angry, you're... something) . It's a lot to keep straight in your head (both in your own exhibited behavior and observing and translating other peoples' behaviors), and if you have to think about these things consciously, it's exhausting.
- valuearb 6y ago
  Eyes! Eyes! Is what I tell my 13 year old daughter. But she is far more comfortable looking away while in conversation. The theory that has resonated most with me is that both facial interpretations and language processing are very cerebral processor intensive. Turning off your facial tracking algorithm by looking away frees more brain nodes to help with processing and thinking about what you are hearing and saying. So I’m torn. Do I continually push her to look at faces during conversations, because over time it will build up more efficient neural pathways for that kind of processing? Or is it just something unique about her I can’t change and I am just causing her unresolvable stress?
  - wirrbel 6y ago
    > Or is it just something unique about her I can’t change and I am just causing her unresolvable stress? Why don't you let her decide?
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Because that’s not parenting? This may be an unpopular truth in today’s world, but sometimes you need to make your kids do or try things they are resistant to in hopes it gives them skills to better succeed when they are adults.

mattigames 6y ago

Second guessing behaviors that left a livelong impact on your life is the most human thing there is so I wouldn't overthink it, and I'm glad you can articulate your thoughts and have a drive to share them on platforms such as this one.

juped 6y ago

I'm something non-neurotypical (no idea what), and I'm only able to speak by brute-forcing it (I compose a script for what to say, and then say it, and ideally this happens in a reasonable time). If I thought a bit slower, I would probably just be nonverbal; in many respects, I am.

TrinaryWorksToo 6y ago

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31215791/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31215791/ > The Misnomer of 'High Functioning Autism': Intelligence Is an Imprecise Predictor of Functional Abilities at Diagnosis It has been found previously to not be correlative. Can someone give insight into this discrepency?

cbhl 6y ago
Presumably "requires further study", but one thing that comes to mind is that the linked study looks at early childhood (ages 3-6) whereas the study you linked considers a wider range of ages (1-18).

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woodandsteel 6y ago

How specifically are you imitating a neurotypical person? Like are you pretending to be compassionate when you're not? And what specifically is it about you that creeps people out when they discover it?

glitchc 6y ago

Am sorry to hear that they dislike you. At the risk of sounding extremely insensitive, can you share more? I ask because I'm mildly Asperger's myself.

kstenerud 6y ago
I'm not really sure what else there is to share. It generally goes like this: - I meet someone, or start a new job, or some such thing. - People are friendly and everything seems fine for about 6 months to a year. After that, things get weird quickly, like they throw a switch or something. Either one person starts saying rude things to me and the rest either sit back or join in, or a group of soon-to-be-ex-friends gang up on me suddenly (happened a lot in school), and then very quickly I'm ejected from the group. This happens both socially and professionally. I've also lost jobs this way, where I'd be fired with them refusing to give a reason, or pushed out via some technicality so that they can just have me gone. My close friends and family tell me that I'm not being mean or condescending or rude or an asshole (I've had many observe me just to be sure), so there's something else going on. And asking the people involved hasn't worked because they won't tell me.
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stretchwithme 6y ago

I think that's also true of schizophrenia. Like the main character in A Beautiful Mind, John Nash, my brother was able to discern what was hallucination and what wasn't. The less intelligent a person is, the more difficult that must be.

lilyball 6y ago

I learned how to mask so effectively that I didn’t even realize I’m autistic until literally a few weeks ago (I’m in my 30s). It doesn’t help that the pop culture idea of autism is really what’s often called “boy autism”[1] and “girl autism” is a lot more subtle. I’m trying to dismantle some of my masking now, because it feels a hell of a lot better to stop suppressing my natural inclinations and it’s helping me deal with my social anxiety. [1]: Note: “boy autism” and “girl autism” are really misnomers, “boy autism” can occur in girls and “girl autism” can occur in boys.