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You will start to see many articles degrading remote work. Remote work is too efficient to this economic system. We need to spend time on traffic and restaurant

by lcam84 6y ago

You will start to see many articles degrading remote work. Remote work is too efficient to this economic system. We need to spend time on traffic and restaurants. As we saw Jorge W Bush at the moment of crisis asking citizens to consume, I would not be surprised to see politicians asking employees and companies to reduce remote work for the good of this economy which is based on exponential growth such as this virus

ikeyany 6y ago
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Someone can strongly think "I don't want to interact with others via webcam and screens all day" without having ulterior motives.
- lcam84 6y ago
  I agree with you, remote work has many problems and one of them is the possibility to become tiresome the interactions at a distance. It can however have several ecological advantages, and if well managed it can be a way to strengthen family and community ties. My point is that although it is more efficient, it is not as productive as putting everyone to work in big cities. It doesn't produce traffic, maybe people feel less need to buy cars, it doesn't generate so much real estate speculation, etc.
  - ikeyany 6y ago
    We should certainly scrutinize certain industries more than others, such as the auto industry or those who otherwise benefit from having the masses commutes.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Emails and conference calls work just fine, no videoconf required. Unless you absolutely need to be on video, don't, it's just unnecessary stress. If your org requires you be on video constantly for every call, leave for a better org when you can if they're unable to budge on unreasonable requirements.
  - dmoy 6y ago
    I read GP's statement as the exact opposite: Some people will prefer more contact, especially face-to-face contact. Not less, as in no video. But now I don't know which interpretation is what they meant.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - ghaff 6y ago
      We don't require video but it's the norm with most of the groups I communicate with--especially with smaller calls. If I'm on a large group call that I'm sort of half paying attention to in case there's something I should know about, I'll just turn my webcam off. But for calls I'm actively participating in, it is more engaging if people are on video. I'm not sure why we'd want to have less engagement especially at a time when there aren't F2F meetings. (And, yes, it does force you to be a bit more present than an audio call does. But that's sort of the point.)
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        > I'm not sure why we'd want to have less engagement especially at a time when there aren't F2F meetings. More engagement doesn't necessarily translate into more value. For example, I can focus more on the task at hand if I’m not having to worry about everyone judging my video feed. Do you need to see me if I’m still adequately communicating? Cognitive load is a thing. https://www.google.com/search?q=zoom+fatigue https://www.google.com/search?q=zoom+fatigue
        ghaff 6y ago
        Personally, I'm not convinced things would be any better if I were on audio calls all day--although it would let me tune out more. But, at that point, maybe I just shouldn't be in those meetings if I'm just treating them as background noise. I admit that I'm more accustomed to the video chat thing than many. I work for a heavily remote global company and I'm very rarely in an office (even though I'm officially associated with one).
econcon 6y ago
There was a point in my life when I hated work as commute, lunch breaks, even outside noise disruption and other things at my workplace like bathroom breaks were enjoyable escapements. Then I started working from home and now I am very happy I work on some interesting side projects at my home and this has improved my productivity on boring company tasks. But why I don't get interesting company work? Mostly because boring task pays well.
- PopeDotNinja 6y ago
  Working remotely can be amazing. Today I spent 2 hours driving, 1 hour each way, to go snorkeling off a black sand beach. I did that in Tuesday also. Then I got home and started working at around 3p. That beats commuting 2 hours in traffic during peak daylight hours, only to collapse from exhaustion in my evening hours.
  - mylons 6y ago
    nice, are you in maui?
    - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
      La Palma. See my response to the the other comment.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    Auckland?
    - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
      La Palma, in the Canary Islands! This place is simply wonderful. Here's a video taken on Tuesday by Lisa, the wonderful operator of https://www.oceanologico.com/ https://www.oceanologico.com/ ... https://youtu.be/UdWG0f02uF4 https://youtu.be/UdWG0f02uF4 If you're wondering what I'm doing in the Canary Islands during Coronaverse shenanigans, I was visiting when quarantine started, decided to stay here, and am still here. I felt Spain was taking Coronavirus more seriously than the USA. Here's more pics from La Palma: Mar 1, 2020 / Playa Las Cabras -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/j2o62tm5ECjn4eCY6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/j2o62tm5ECjn4eCY6 Mar 1, 2020 / Mirador de la Cumbrecita -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/A2DoNocGNVBnGsBd8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/A2DoNocGNVBnGsBd8 Mar 2, 2020 / Petroglifos La Fajana -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/qiBeHL95PTfjpNbM9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/qiBeHL95PTfjpNbM9 Mar 2, 2020 / Stargazing at Mirador Astronómico del Llano del Jable -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/oCamaWZwfH2HwykBA https://photos.app.goo.gl/oCamaWZwfH2HwykBA Mar 4, 2020 / Snorkeling At La Bombilla -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/upfnrj4dED4eYkkU7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/upfnrj4dED4eYkkU7 Mar 7, 2020 / Roque De Los Muchachos -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/XbGjsm5q1oSkmXG7A https://photos.app.goo.gl/XbGjsm5q1oSkmXG7A Mar 9, 2020 / Some Steep Ass Hike Near Puntagorda -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/1z5NMgaheCkj9uXr8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/1z5NMgaheCkj9uXr8 Mar 10, 2020 / El Tablado -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/NWnJNcKa6uYuwiy68 https://photos.app.goo.gl/NWnJNcKa6uYuwiy68 Mar 11, 2020 / Mirador De La Montaña Del Molino -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/SRRnRhgUWSTVmUKZ6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/SRRnRhgUWSTVmUKZ6 Mar 12, 2020 / Observatorio Roque De Los Muchachos (including GranTeCan, the world's largest optical telescope at 10.4m in diameter) -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/JcD1bCUb1asU9VcE8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/JcD1bCUb1asU9VcE8 Mar 29, 2020 / Scenic Route To Returning The Car -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/Dgx9hTFsQ8HDa5sQ7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/Dgx9hTFsQ8HDa5sQ7 May 2, 2020 / First Walk Since Mar 13!!! -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/qMbUGGShiuEPSrQT7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/qMbUGGShiuEPSrQT7 May 3, 2020 / Walk Along The Shore -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/dxtfhDfo6VVKc8PN6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/dxtfhDfo6VVKc8PN6 May 3, 2020 / Walk Along The Shore -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/RukczW1jXbf17AU46 https://photos.app.goo.gl/RukczW1jXbf17AU46 May 4, 2020 / Morning Walk -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/RukczW1jXbf17AU46 https://photos.app.goo.gl/RukczW1jXbf17AU46 May 11, 2020 / Morning Walk -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/ndwxKH4gZNdfzmRt7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/ndwxKH4gZNdfzmRt7 May 24, 2020 / La Palma / La Fajana de Franceses -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/46PrYSdjKCMHQjECA https://photos.app.goo.gl/46PrYSdjKCMHQjECA May 25, 2020 / La Palma / Roque De Santo Domingo -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/N1Z5PKWwESg7aTkC6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/N1Z5PKWwESg7aTkC6
_bxg1 6y ago
These kinds of weird economic situations always take me back to this tweet: https://twitter.com/computerfact/status/1214869643531341824?s=20 https://twitter.com/computerfact/status/1214869643531341824?... --------------------------------- When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail When you're the CEO of HammerCorp you are driven to turn everything that is not already a nail into a nail When the global economy is based solely on hammers society collapses as dying people chew on nails for sustenance
runawaybottle 6y ago
It almost seems like a fruitless conversation. Has anyone ever beaten economic forces? It’s going to happen how it happens.
- lcam84 6y ago
  It may be fruitless, but we have to talk about it. We have a growth addiction that threatens to deplete the planet's resources. Real solutions like working from home, working less, putting real taxes on externalities, reduce the scale of economies are not really taken into account because they reduce GDP, or generate fewer jobs. We have to think of a post-growth and also post-work society
  - rightbyte 6y ago
    I am not buying that. Smaller scale, less working hours and "green economy" equals more work to be done (less efficient) by more people and would lead to more jobs, right? E.g. buying small farm ecological fruits need more work by the farmer and you to pay for it -> higher gdp.
    - lcam84 6y ago
      Although working fewer hours can mean more work (or at least a greater distribution of work), producing on a smaller scale is much more efficient than producing on a larger scale. This is due to Borsodi's law which states that as the cost of production decreases due to centralized operation, the cost of processing and distribution increases disproportionately [1]. For example, if a greenhouse produces one type of fruit for the entire continent, its production costs are low but distribution costs will be much higher e.g. the costs of transporting the fertilizer to the site, and those of transporting the goods as well as cooling, packaging, marketing.These distribution costs will be much higher than in several decentralised small-scale regenerative agriculture productions. All waste on gasoline, packaging and fertilizer (much of it synthetic) enters in the GDP. In fact the GDP is not a good measure of progress at all and this discourse to clarify why [2] At the moment in developed countries you have 2% of the population working in agriculture and 40% in distribution. Even if you increase the number of jobs in agriculture (for example to 10%) this would mean a fairly large reduction in employment in distribution. We have to solve our social and environmental problems even if it does not provide jobs. Employment is a means to an end and not the end in itself.Previous generations created infrastructure unimaginable 100 years ago and that is the reason why there is no employment. To insist on full employment is not to value what has been done. I leave here a quote from Ralph Borsodi: "It is more nearly true to say that happiness is dependent not on producing as much as possible but on producing as little as possible. Comfort and understanding are dependent upon producing only so much as is compatible with the enjoyment of the superior life. Producing more than this involves a waste of mankind's most precious possessions. It involves a waste of the only two things which man should really conserve -- the two things which he should use with real intelligence and only for what really conduces to his comfort. When he destroys these two things, he has destroyed what is for all practical purposes irreplaceable. These two things are the natural resources of the earth and the time which he has to spend in the enjoyment of them. When he produces more things than are necessary to good living, he wastes both of them; he wastes time and he wastes material, both of which should be used to make the world a more beautiful place in which to live, and life in it more beautiful than it is Today". [1] https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/GoodBooks/The%20Distribution%20Age.pdf https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/GoodBooks/The%2... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77IdKFqXbUY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77IdKFqXbUY
wayoutthere 6y ago
I think we're headed for a different economic system entirely by the end of the decade. Most millennials / Gen Z fully realize that "perpetual growth capitalism" has to end in our lifetimes. Even ignoring climate change, we simply have to consume less because we're running out of things to consume. At best, we're looking at holding global economic output relatively flat in perpetuity; at worst it will decline across the board. Our political and economic systems are not designed for that reality over any significant time span. We will need to replace them with ones that are, and that process will be neither pretty nor peaceful (the left is starting to bring guns to rallies too).
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  I'm not sure about any sort of radical change. I recognize the issues, but I also bought a house and have meager retirement savings in the market. Millennials and Gen Z are going to sink further and further into these systems, especially as the baby boomer money and homes come free and start drifting into the next generations. I doubt we'll run out of things to consume, we've already found the solution to that - digital media, with no real world substance, has a ton of value. If you can create items to consume out of thin air, you can never run out.
- keithwhor 6y ago
  While access to resources is not evenly distributed (not everybody can consume equally), life itself is a consumption mechanism by design. We're currently only consuming 1 / 10,000th of the energy that reaches Earth from the Sun every day. I'd be hesitant to paint a future whereby consumptive expansion isn't feasible or possible. In this past decade alone we turned automated prime factorization into a currency just to have an excuse to waste energy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
  - willcipriano 6y ago
    From my perspective the growth potential globally is massive, the majority of people on earth live on less than $2.50 a day. This can't be where we stop the wheels of progress.
bdcravens 6y ago
I don't think remote work is necessarily efficient in every case. Yesterday I filled an order with my mail order pharmacy, a call that takes about 5 minutes per month. This call took a very non-efficient 30 minutes, and the worker revealed to me they were working from home, and apparently her computer was extremely slow (the audio quality was also not great, presumably it was a bad VOIP link). I didn't dig deeper, and of course we know of a number of reasons why that could be, and potential fixes, but my takeaway is WFH isn't a panacea - there's work to be done, and it may not be useful in all situations.
- tlb 6y ago
  Connection speed is a solvable problem. Good internet is cheap relative to a salary. So while there'll be a transition period where people discover their Comcast cable connection isn't enough, when people take it seriously those'll get fixed.
  - asdf21 6y ago
    Fixed how... Comcast is basically a monopoly in many areas
    - tlb 6y ago
      They have a monopoly on the existing cable infrastructure, but other ISPs install fiber or WiMax antennas.
  - bdcravens 6y ago
    Solvable, but not quickly. Even in the Houston area, you can live 30 minutes away and be in a pretty rural setting. Someone may have made that choice intentionally, not thinking they'd be required to work from home one day. Imagine owning a Prius as a UPS driver, and then being told you need to start using your personal vehicle for deliveries.
  - ilaksh 6y ago
    I agree, but also Comcast cable IS enough 99% of the time. He said she was having trouble with VOIP. You can run VOIP on almost any kind of connection. Definitely every modern cable connection is designed for that. And if it was "her computer" i.e. slow webpages, that is probably just a broken web application if it doesn't work remotely, or one that was designed (poorly) for an intranet.
Jommi 6y ago
Why do you think people who work from home would consume less? Where does that excess money go to?
- ilaksh 6y ago
  They consume less gasoline and other transportation costs which can easily add up to $4000-5000 per year.
  - Jommi 6y ago
    So where does that money go to?
- lcam84 6y ago
  Having more time on our hands can reduce consumption, for example, we can make our food instead of going to the restaurant or take away. We may have more time for the family and thus spend less on nursing homes or kindergartens. This is just my opinion but it can also reduce conspicuous consumption. Remote work makes it less necessary to be in the centre of a city or surroundings. This reduces the consumption used to define social status. For example at the moment the fashion business is in a strong decline. We are already seeing an increase in savings partly due to remote work. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/12/investing/jobs-coronavirus-consumer-spending-debt/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/12/investing/jobs-coronaviru...
  - ubercow13 6y ago
    Maybe businesses will have more incentive to produce actually 'fun' stuff for people to spend their money on, rather than more and more unnecessary status items.
  - Jommi 6y ago
    I think you underestimate the human desire to consume. Making food at home suddenly makes you want to invest in higher quality ingredients, better tools. Maybe even a bigger kitchen! How did you come up with remote work increasing savings? It's more of a fact that in economical uncertainty savings will go up.
zeitgeistfn 6y ago
This is why certain countries don't promote quarantine The powers at play want consumers to keep their businesses alive. That combined with their governments inability to do contact tracing and keep order with their castrated police. It's all a lot of work, and work is costly. Powers at play don't want all that unless they can profit from it.
schnable 6y ago
Like when San Francisco tried to ban free lunches in the office.
opportune 6y ago
This is far too simplistic and cynical a view. You are not being charitable to people who have legitimate criticisms of WFH and I don’t think you can flat out claim WFH is more efficient across the board Some legit criticisms I have of WFH (I’m not “anti” WFH, mind): If you rely on colleagues/get blocked by them, they can go AWOL for extended periods and block you harder. Some people are straight up much less productive even if they don’t have kids in their house, probably because they need the structure or get distracted easily at home. Meetings are more efficient ways to relay medium-large amounts of information than async communication like email/messaging. And video meetings are still quite awkward and may never be able to be as good as in person. It’s much harder for managers to do their job (understand the state of the team and communicate that upwards, track progress, manage wellbeing, help where it’s needed) in environments that are more closed off. I’m sure many people are more productive when WFH but it’s certainly not everyone. It’s not at all “too efficient”. I have directly seen how it harms individual and team productivity and communication
- ryanSrich 6y ago
  > Meetings are more efficient ways to relay medium-large amounts of information than async communication like email/messaging Absolutely could not disagree with this statement more. Meetings are where productivity goes to die. Information should be throughly documented, annotated, and shared. Async feedback + RT collaboration is how value is created. You could build a multi-billion dollar business without ever going into a meeting. Meetings are a crutch. A bad habit of legacy forced-commute workplaces that simply want to give the appearance of work. It’s the ultimate form of the art of not working.
  - watwut 6y ago
    It all depends on how the meeting is moderated, whether people can excuse themselves out of them when they are not relevant and so on. I think that key is culture where it is ok to say "I dont need to be in this meeting, have a nice day". The written discussions take awful amount of time compared to moderated meeting (whether online or offline one).
LockAndLol 6y ago
I have a feel most articles against it aren't based on anything substantial and are simply made by people who personally don't like remote work. "If I don't like remote work, then how come anybody can?" We seem to have a lot of self-centered people floating around in their own spheres of interest. "I had this experience, I'm most people, so most people should agree". I thought HN would be different from reddit, but it those differences seem only superficial.
- veggieburglar 6y ago
  I feel like it goes both ways. A lot of the WFH discussion on HN goes something like this: “I’m a senior SWE working remotely for ten years, I make $200k+, never work if I don’t want to, wake up whenever I want to, go hiking during the day etc. It’s so great!” (Obviously an exaggerated simplification here). Well great that it works for you, but that will not translate for a huge swath of the working population. I do agree that for SWEs and others who are able to and enjoy spending their time working independently, that WFH is likely a godsend. HN self selects for those types of workers, so it makes sense that is the most prominent opinion here on the board.

by lcam84 6y ago

ikeyany 6y ago

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Someone can strongly think "I don't want to interact with others via webcam and screens all day" without having ulterior motives.

lcam84 6y ago
I agree with you, remote work has many problems and one of them is the possibility to become tiresome the interactions at a distance. It can however have several ecological advantages, and if well managed it can be a way to strengthen family and community ties. My point is that although it is more efficient, it is not as productive as putting everyone to work in big cities. It doesn't produce traffic, maybe people feel less need to buy cars, it doesn't generate so much real estate speculation, etc.
- ikeyany 6y ago
  We should certainly scrutinize certain industries more than others, such as the auto industry or those who otherwise benefit from having the masses commutes.
toomuchtodo 6y ago
Emails and conference calls work just fine, no videoconf required. Unless you absolutely need to be on video, don't, it's just unnecessary stress. If your org requires you be on video constantly for every call, leave for a better org when you can if they're unable to budge on unreasonable requirements.
- dmoy 6y ago
  I read GP's statement as the exact opposite: Some people will prefer more contact, especially face-to-face contact. Not less, as in no video. But now I don't know which interpretation is what they meant.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ghaff 6y ago
    We don't require video but it's the norm with most of the groups I communicate with--especially with smaller calls. If I'm on a large group call that I'm sort of half paying attention to in case there's something I should know about, I'll just turn my webcam off. But for calls I'm actively participating in, it is more engaging if people are on video. I'm not sure why we'd want to have less engagement especially at a time when there aren't F2F meetings. (And, yes, it does force you to be a bit more present than an audio call does. But that's sort of the point.)
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      > I'm not sure why we'd want to have less engagement especially at a time when there aren't F2F meetings. More engagement doesn't necessarily translate into more value. For example, I can focus more on the task at hand if I’m not having to worry about everyone judging my video feed. Do you need to see me if I’m still adequately communicating? Cognitive load is a thing. https://www.google.com/search?q=zoom+fatigue https://www.google.com/search?q=zoom+fatigue
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Personally, I'm not convinced things would be any better if I were on audio calls all day--although it would let me tune out more. But, at that point, maybe I just shouldn't be in those meetings if I'm just treating them as background noise. I admit that I'm more accustomed to the video chat thing than many. I work for a heavily remote global company and I'm very rarely in an office (even though I'm officially associated with one).

econcon 6y ago

There was a point in my life when I hated work as commute, lunch breaks, even outside noise disruption and other things at my workplace like bathroom breaks were enjoyable escapements. Then I started working from home and now I am very happy I work on some interesting side projects at my home and this has improved my productivity on boring company tasks. But why I don't get interesting company work? Mostly because boring task pays well.

PopeDotNinja 6y ago
Working remotely can be amazing. Today I spent 2 hours driving, 1 hour each way, to go snorkeling off a black sand beach. I did that in Tuesday also. Then I got home and started working at around 3p. That beats commuting 2 hours in traffic during peak daylight hours, only to collapse from exhaustion in my evening hours.
- mylons 6y ago
  nice, are you in maui?
  - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
    La Palma. See my response to the the other comment.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  Auckland?
  - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
    La Palma, in the Canary Islands! This place is simply wonderful. Here's a video taken on Tuesday by Lisa, the wonderful operator of https://www.oceanologico.com/ https://www.oceanologico.com/ ... https://youtu.be/UdWG0f02uF4 https://youtu.be/UdWG0f02uF4 If you're wondering what I'm doing in the Canary Islands during Coronaverse shenanigans, I was visiting when quarantine started, decided to stay here, and am still here. I felt Spain was taking Coronavirus more seriously than the USA. Here's more pics from La Palma: Mar 1, 2020 / Playa Las Cabras -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/j2o62tm5ECjn4eCY6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/j2o62tm5ECjn4eCY6 Mar 1, 2020 / Mirador de la Cumbrecita -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/A2DoNocGNVBnGsBd8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/A2DoNocGNVBnGsBd8 Mar 2, 2020 / Petroglifos La Fajana -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/qiBeHL95PTfjpNbM9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/qiBeHL95PTfjpNbM9 Mar 2, 2020 / Stargazing at Mirador Astronómico del Llano del Jable -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/oCamaWZwfH2HwykBA https://photos.app.goo.gl/oCamaWZwfH2HwykBA Mar 4, 2020 / Snorkeling At La Bombilla -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/upfnrj4dED4eYkkU7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/upfnrj4dED4eYkkU7 Mar 7, 2020 / Roque De Los Muchachos -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/XbGjsm5q1oSkmXG7A https://photos.app.goo.gl/XbGjsm5q1oSkmXG7A Mar 9, 2020 / Some Steep Ass Hike Near Puntagorda -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/1z5NMgaheCkj9uXr8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/1z5NMgaheCkj9uXr8 Mar 10, 2020 / El Tablado -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/NWnJNcKa6uYuwiy68 https://photos.app.goo.gl/NWnJNcKa6uYuwiy68 Mar 11, 2020 / Mirador De La Montaña Del Molino -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/SRRnRhgUWSTVmUKZ6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/SRRnRhgUWSTVmUKZ6 Mar 12, 2020 / Observatorio Roque De Los Muchachos (including GranTeCan, the world's largest optical telescope at 10.4m in diameter) -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/JcD1bCUb1asU9VcE8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/JcD1bCUb1asU9VcE8 Mar 29, 2020 / Scenic Route To Returning The Car -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/Dgx9hTFsQ8HDa5sQ7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/Dgx9hTFsQ8HDa5sQ7 May 2, 2020 / First Walk Since Mar 13!!! -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/qMbUGGShiuEPSrQT7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/qMbUGGShiuEPSrQT7 May 3, 2020 / Walk Along The Shore -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/dxtfhDfo6VVKc8PN6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/dxtfhDfo6VVKc8PN6 May 3, 2020 / Walk Along The Shore -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/RukczW1jXbf17AU46 https://photos.app.goo.gl/RukczW1jXbf17AU46 May 4, 2020 / Morning Walk -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/RukczW1jXbf17AU46 https://photos.app.goo.gl/RukczW1jXbf17AU46 May 11, 2020 / Morning Walk -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/ndwxKH4gZNdfzmRt7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/ndwxKH4gZNdfzmRt7 May 24, 2020 / La Palma / La Fajana de Franceses -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/46PrYSdjKCMHQjECA https://photos.app.goo.gl/46PrYSdjKCMHQjECA May 25, 2020 / La Palma / Roque De Santo Domingo -- https://photos.app.goo.gl/N1Z5PKWwESg7aTkC6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/N1Z5PKWwESg7aTkC6

_bxg1 6y ago

These kinds of weird economic situations always take me back to this tweet: https://twitter.com/computerfact/status/1214869643531341824?s=20 https://twitter.com/computerfact/status/1214869643531341824?... --------------------------------- When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail When you're the CEO of HammerCorp you are driven to turn everything that is not already a nail into a nail When the global economy is based solely on hammers society collapses as dying people chew on nails for sustenance

runawaybottle 6y ago

It almost seems like a fruitless conversation. Has anyone ever beaten economic forces? It’s going to happen how it happens.

lcam84 6y ago
It may be fruitless, but we have to talk about it. We have a growth addiction that threatens to deplete the planet's resources. Real solutions like working from home, working less, putting real taxes on externalities, reduce the scale of economies are not really taken into account because they reduce GDP, or generate fewer jobs. We have to think of a post-growth and also post-work society
- rightbyte 6y ago
  I am not buying that. Smaller scale, less working hours and "green economy" equals more work to be done (less efficient) by more people and would lead to more jobs, right? E.g. buying small farm ecological fruits need more work by the farmer and you to pay for it -> higher gdp.
  - lcam84 6y ago
    Although working fewer hours can mean more work (or at least a greater distribution of work), producing on a smaller scale is much more efficient than producing on a larger scale. This is due to Borsodi's law which states that as the cost of production decreases due to centralized operation, the cost of processing and distribution increases disproportionately [1]. For example, if a greenhouse produces one type of fruit for the entire continent, its production costs are low but distribution costs will be much higher e.g. the costs of transporting the fertilizer to the site, and those of transporting the goods as well as cooling, packaging, marketing.These distribution costs will be much higher than in several decentralised small-scale regenerative agriculture productions. All waste on gasoline, packaging and fertilizer (much of it synthetic) enters in the GDP. In fact the GDP is not a good measure of progress at all and this discourse to clarify why [2] At the moment in developed countries you have 2% of the population working in agriculture and 40% in distribution. Even if you increase the number of jobs in agriculture (for example to 10%) this would mean a fairly large reduction in employment in distribution. We have to solve our social and environmental problems even if it does not provide jobs. Employment is a means to an end and not the end in itself.Previous generations created infrastructure unimaginable 100 years ago and that is the reason why there is no employment. To insist on full employment is not to value what has been done. I leave here a quote from Ralph Borsodi: "It is more nearly true to say that happiness is dependent not on producing as much as possible but on producing as little as possible. Comfort and understanding are dependent upon producing only so much as is compatible with the enjoyment of the superior life. Producing more than this involves a waste of mankind's most precious possessions. It involves a waste of the only two things which man should really conserve -- the two things which he should use with real intelligence and only for what really conduces to his comfort. When he destroys these two things, he has destroyed what is for all practical purposes irreplaceable. These two things are the natural resources of the earth and the time which he has to spend in the enjoyment of them. When he produces more things than are necessary to good living, he wastes both of them; he wastes time and he wastes material, both of which should be used to make the world a more beautiful place in which to live, and life in it more beautiful than it is Today". [1] https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/GoodBooks/The%20Distribution%20Age.pdf https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/GoodBooks/The%2... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77IdKFqXbUY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77IdKFqXbUY

wayoutthere 6y ago

I think we're headed for a different economic system entirely by the end of the decade. Most millennials / Gen Z fully realize that "perpetual growth capitalism" has to end in our lifetimes. Even ignoring climate change, we simply have to consume less because we're running out of things to consume. At best, we're looking at holding global economic output relatively flat in perpetuity; at worst it will decline across the board. Our political and economic systems are not designed for that reality over any significant time span. We will need to replace them with ones that are, and that process will be neither pretty nor peaceful (the left is starting to bring guns to rallies too).

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
I'm not sure about any sort of radical change. I recognize the issues, but I also bought a house and have meager retirement savings in the market. Millennials and Gen Z are going to sink further and further into these systems, especially as the baby boomer money and homes come free and start drifting into the next generations. I doubt we'll run out of things to consume, we've already found the solution to that - digital media, with no real world substance, has a ton of value. If you can create items to consume out of thin air, you can never run out.
keithwhor 6y ago
While access to resources is not evenly distributed (not everybody can consume equally), life itself is a consumption mechanism by design. We're currently only consuming 1 / 10,000th of the energy that reaches Earth from the Sun every day. I'd be hesitant to paint a future whereby consumptive expansion isn't feasible or possible. In this past decade alone we turned automated prime factorization into a currency just to have an excuse to waste energy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
- willcipriano 6y ago
  From my perspective the growth potential globally is massive, the majority of people on earth live on less than $2.50 a day. This can't be where we stop the wheels of progress.

bdcravens 6y ago

I don't think remote work is necessarily efficient in every case. Yesterday I filled an order with my mail order pharmacy, a call that takes about 5 minutes per month. This call took a very non-efficient 30 minutes, and the worker revealed to me they were working from home, and apparently her computer was extremely slow (the audio quality was also not great, presumably it was a bad VOIP link). I didn't dig deeper, and of course we know of a number of reasons why that could be, and potential fixes, but my takeaway is WFH isn't a panacea - there's work to be done, and it may not be useful in all situations.

tlb 6y ago
Connection speed is a solvable problem. Good internet is cheap relative to a salary. So while there'll be a transition period where people discover their Comcast cable connection isn't enough, when people take it seriously those'll get fixed.
- asdf21 6y ago
  Fixed how... Comcast is basically a monopoly in many areas
  - tlb 6y ago
    They have a monopoly on the existing cable infrastructure, but other ISPs install fiber or WiMax antennas.
- bdcravens 6y ago
  Solvable, but not quickly. Even in the Houston area, you can live 30 minutes away and be in a pretty rural setting. Someone may have made that choice intentionally, not thinking they'd be required to work from home one day. Imagine owning a Prius as a UPS driver, and then being told you need to start using your personal vehicle for deliveries.
- ilaksh 6y ago
  I agree, but also Comcast cable IS enough 99% of the time. He said she was having trouble with VOIP. You can run VOIP on almost any kind of connection. Definitely every modern cable connection is designed for that. And if it was "her computer" i.e. slow webpages, that is probably just a broken web application if it doesn't work remotely, or one that was designed (poorly) for an intranet.

Jommi 6y ago

Why do you think people who work from home would consume less? Where does that excess money go to?

ilaksh 6y ago
They consume less gasoline and other transportation costs which can easily add up to $4000-5000 per year.
- Jommi 6y ago
  So where does that money go to?
lcam84 6y ago
Having more time on our hands can reduce consumption, for example, we can make our food instead of going to the restaurant or take away. We may have more time for the family and thus spend less on nursing homes or kindergartens. This is just my opinion but it can also reduce conspicuous consumption. Remote work makes it less necessary to be in the centre of a city or surroundings. This reduces the consumption used to define social status. For example at the moment the fashion business is in a strong decline. We are already seeing an increase in savings partly due to remote work. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/12/investing/jobs-coronavirus-consumer-spending-debt/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/12/investing/jobs-coronaviru...
- ubercow13 6y ago
  Maybe businesses will have more incentive to produce actually 'fun' stuff for people to spend their money on, rather than more and more unnecessary status items.
- Jommi 6y ago
  I think you underestimate the human desire to consume. Making food at home suddenly makes you want to invest in higher quality ingredients, better tools. Maybe even a bigger kitchen! How did you come up with remote work increasing savings? It's more of a fact that in economical uncertainty savings will go up.

zeitgeistfn 6y ago

This is why certain countries don't promote quarantine The powers at play want consumers to keep their businesses alive. That combined with their governments inability to do contact tracing and keep order with their castrated police. It's all a lot of work, and work is costly. Powers at play don't want all that unless they can profit from it.

schnable 6y ago

Like when San Francisco tried to ban free lunches in the office.

opportune 6y ago

This is far too simplistic and cynical a view. You are not being charitable to people who have legitimate criticisms of WFH and I don’t think you can flat out claim WFH is more efficient across the board Some legit criticisms I have of WFH (I’m not “anti” WFH, mind): If you rely on colleagues/get blocked by them, they can go AWOL for extended periods and block you harder. Some people are straight up much less productive even if they don’t have kids in their house, probably because they need the structure or get distracted easily at home. Meetings are more efficient ways to relay medium-large amounts of information than async communication like email/messaging. And video meetings are still quite awkward and may never be able to be as good as in person. It’s much harder for managers to do their job (understand the state of the team and communicate that upwards, track progress, manage wellbeing, help where it’s needed) in environments that are more closed off. I’m sure many people are more productive when WFH but it’s certainly not everyone. It’s not at all “too efficient”. I have directly seen how it harms individual and team productivity and communication

ryanSrich 6y ago
> Meetings are more efficient ways to relay medium-large amounts of information than async communication like email/messaging Absolutely could not disagree with this statement more. Meetings are where productivity goes to die. Information should be throughly documented, annotated, and shared. Async feedback + RT collaboration is how value is created. You could build a multi-billion dollar business without ever going into a meeting. Meetings are a crutch. A bad habit of legacy forced-commute workplaces that simply want to give the appearance of work. It’s the ultimate form of the art of not working.
- watwut 6y ago
  It all depends on how the meeting is moderated, whether people can excuse themselves out of them when they are not relevant and so on. I think that key is culture where it is ok to say "I dont need to be in this meeting, have a nice day". The written discussions take awful amount of time compared to moderated meeting (whether online or offline one).

LockAndLol 6y ago

I have a feel most articles against it aren't based on anything substantial and are simply made by people who personally don't like remote work. "If I don't like remote work, then how come anybody can?" We seem to have a lot of self-centered people floating around in their own spheres of interest. "I had this experience, I'm most people, so most people should agree". I thought HN would be different from reddit, but it those differences seem only superficial.

veggieburglar 6y ago
I feel like it goes both ways. A lot of the WFH discussion on HN goes something like this: “I’m a senior SWE working remotely for ten years, I make $200k+, never work if I don’t want to, wake up whenever I want to, go hiking during the day etc. It’s so great!” (Obviously an exaggerated simplification here). Well great that it works for you, but that will not translate for a huge swath of the working population. I do agree that for SWEs and others who are able to and enjoy spending their time working independently, that WFH is likely a godsend. HN self selects for those types of workers, so it makes sense that is the most prominent opinion here on the board.